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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: investigateworld
Yo Dude, I think I see a bit of Jesuit Thinking in your posts

Interesting. In what fashion?

Loyola U perhaps?

No, me engineer. Me work with things. Me leave non Christian theological premises to certain idiots.

or just another proddy seeking the truth?

I spent some time in my teens and 20s wandering far afield, but I came back to the Church in much the same manner (only spiritually) as the Prodigal Son.

2,351 posted on 01/31/2011 6:34:33 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD; Alamo-Girl; count-your-change
"Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates.

For clarification, are you saying that the RCC does not hold Scripture to be infallible in its original mss (as do most evangelicals)?

Do you realize that every major heresy of the first millennium can be defended directly from Scripture - admittedly snippets, but so are many current beliefs."

So the abuse of something invalidates its authority, or those who effectively or formally presume a doctrinal authority superior to it, but it validates one who uses it in asserting that it is infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly defined criteria? By what means are we to ascertain that Rome is the One True and infallible Church?

2,352 posted on 01/31/2011 6:54:55 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: daniel1212
"Scriptures cannot be infallible. Their interpretation can be and is under the Church as Scripture itself illustrates.

For clarification, are you saying that the RCC does not hold Scripture to be infallible in its original mss (as do most evangelicals)?

For one thing, you do not have the original mss, so the question is really moot. For another thing, printed words cannot be infallible. They may be inerrant, but not infallible. A third point is that the interpretation of these words may be infallible. And they are under the guidance of the Holy Spirit leading the Magisterium of the Church, not Luther's every milkmaid.

So the abuse of something invalidates its authority, or those who effectively or formally presume a doctrinal authority superior to it, but it validates one who uses it in asserting that it is infallible whenever it speaks in accordance with its infallibly defined criteria? By what means are we to ascertain that Rome is the One True and infallible Church?

Why do you guys keep going on about Rome? What is your obsession? The Church was created by Jesus and commissioned by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. That is the authority - from Jesus, not from a self indulgent monk, and not from a power crazed monomaniacal lunatic. Or the absurd and most ridiculous Zwingli. The Church is the Church and it is not headquartered at Rome.

2,353 posted on 01/31/2011 7:08:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD

I think you did a brilliant job describing this subject. Thank you.


2,354 posted on 01/31/2011 7:11:37 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: MarkBsnr

You’re going far afield from what I said.

To repeat:

By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

Is it really that difficult a question?


2,355 posted on 01/31/2011 7:16:53 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

The Church was not persecuting. They did their best to convince them to return to the Faith because the Church was afraid for their very souls. What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?

2,356 posted on 01/31/2011 7:20:30 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Cronos
Gee, thanks, Cronos for posting those portions of the Confession. It was quite edifying! I especially liked the section that spoke of the purpose of good works in the Christian's life. They most certainly DO have the effect of strengthening my assurance of my redemption for who but the redeemed truly serve God out of love and gratitude instead of fear and dread?
2,357 posted on 01/31/2011 7:29:30 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: HarleyD
Once we see the light we will never want the darkness.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

2,358 posted on 01/31/2011 7:47:24 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: spirited irish
Dostoevsky noted that there are those whose will (Pride of Mind, Flesh, Life) is so terrible as to be satanic. How did Dostoevsky know this to be true? Because he was a self-confessed terrible-willed man, but he sought spiritual remedy through Jesus Christ.

CS Lewis understood this to be the case as well, which is why he said that the gate to Hell will be slammed and locked from the inside.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!

2,359 posted on 01/31/2011 7:49:40 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr

“Cause you answer questions with another question”.
‘Nuff said?


2,360 posted on 01/31/2011 7:52:49 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD
HD: Amen. If one truly has the choices of heaven and hell standing before them, what choice would they make? Once we see the light we will never want the darkness.

Mark: If that is true, then why did satan and 1/3 of all the angels choose to reign in hell rather than serve in Heaven?

Well, remember there was no such thing as hell when Satan first rebelled and he did not and does not have omniscience. Satan was blinded by his own pride in thinking he could be a better God than God. Mankind is also blinded by his pride into thinking he doesn't need God or can go to be with God on his own terms. That is why God says he hates pride more than any other sin.

2,361 posted on 01/31/2011 7:53:03 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: betty boop
I'm with you on being a "bakery shop kid," dearest sister in Christ!
2,362 posted on 01/31/2011 7:55:06 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: HarleyD; Cronos
Thank you so much for sharing your insights and concerns, dear brother in Christ!

I have been reading things like that, too, which suggest the Scripture is subordinate to the Catholic Church's teaching.

But Cronos' reply to this post is very encouraging. Thank you, dear Cronos!

2,363 posted on 01/31/2011 8:01:14 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
2,364 posted on 01/31/2011 8:03:36 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr

I was trying to reconcile your denial of the infallibility of Scripture with what Rome has historically held to, such as what LAMENTABILI SANE Pius X taught in condemning the proposition that “Divine inspiration does not extend to all of Sacred Scriptures so that it renders its parts, each and every one, free from every error.”

But as noted in post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=2190#2190, i do realize there is an internal debate over whether “the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.” (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm#107) refers to all of Scripture, which was the more historical position, or only that which pertains to salvation (and where one draws the line is an interpretive matter).

As for “Why do you guys keep going on about Rome?” and your statement that “the Church..is not headquartered at Rome,” it is because your fellow RCs basically tell us that it is (capital C) and the rest need to submit to here. One prolific RC poster recently told me that for a liberal Catholic like John Kerry to leave the RCC and become a conservative evangelical would be like the fall of Adam and a step toward death.

And that implicit assent to be given to Rome when it has officially defined something. I think that answers the question why we go on about Rome.

Regarding your distinction btwn “infallible and “inerrant,’ I read (http://www.examiner.com/apologetics-theology-in-rapid-city/nt-wright-s-dismissal-of-the-importance-of-scripture-s-infallibility) that according to the Oxford English Dictionary, it was not until 1837 that the English word inerrant was used in the modern sense of exempt from error, free from mistake, infallible. Thus, as JI Packer wrote, “Previously, the preferred term for expressing the conviction that Scripture never misinforms or misleads was infallibility…” (Inerrancy and the Church, 144),

As for printed words not being infallible in the sense that the RC magisterium is said to be, (exemption from the possibility of error) Script-ure is affirmed to be wholly inspired of God, and what was written sometimes had no oral stage.

If you are referring to the need for a interpreter, as my 2190 post points out, “infallible” pronouncements themselves need some interpretation.

But the problem is not that the interpretation of these words may be infallible in themselves, but the formulaic assured status Rome infallibly claims she has as the uniquely supreme interpreter.


2,365 posted on 01/31/2011 8:04:28 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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To: investigateworld
“Cause you answer questions with another question".

What do you mean?

2,366 posted on 01/31/2011 8:05:59 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
We love, not because of who we are, but because of who the beloved is.

Well and truly said.

Thank you for that beautiful Psalm, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for your insights!

2,367 posted on 01/31/2011 8:06:57 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix
Praise God!!!
2,368 posted on 01/31/2011 8:09:28 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: boatbums
Well, remember there was no such thing as hell when Satan first rebelled

How do you know? When was hell created?

Satan was blinded by his own pride in thinking he could be a better God than God.

I must read up on my Milton.

Mankind is also blinded by his pride into thinking he doesn't need God or can go to be with God on his own terms. That is why God says he hates pride more than any other sin.

Now do you understand why we think of the Reformation as we do?

2,369 posted on 01/31/2011 8:09:36 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.

That is what I am seeing as well, though it's often framed in many different ways and from as many differing resources..the bottom line is they all same the same thing and looks like this is where they stood.. and remain even to this day.

2,370 posted on 01/31/2011 8:16:22 PM PST by caww
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To: MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
Go back to your response to Alamo Girl
2,371 posted on 01/31/2011 8:17:48 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: caww; Dr. Eckleburg
one of the greatest errors of the church in Rome is that it literally denies the Holy Spirit in the lives of Christ's sheep. Instead Rome says the Holy Spirit works on the church, which then in turn works on its members. By arrogantly inserting itself between God and men, Rome effectively denies the personal, individual work of the Holy Spirit within us.

That is what I am seeing as well, though it's often framed in many different ways and from as many differing resources..the bottom line is they all same the same thing and looks like this is where they stood.. and remain even to this day.

You may wish to get your eyes checked. This is not the teaching of Christ's Church. In spite of everything we've posted, you guys still come up with this twaddle?

2,372 posted on 01/31/2011 8:20:18 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: investigateworld
Go back to your response to Alamo Girl

Why don't you lay it on me yourself?

2,373 posted on 01/31/2011 8:21:54 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: betty boop
What a perfectly applicable and outstanding essay, dearest sister in Christ! Thank you so much for sharing it!

I particularly loved this line:

Nowhere do we tempt so successfully as on the very steps of the alter.


2,374 posted on 01/31/2011 8:23:37 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos; caww
[Christianity literally turned some OT stories upside down] The Church does not teach that the lamb was killed during Passover to atone for any iniquities

What does the Church teach if not that Christ died for our iniquities and yet that he was the Passover Lamb? 

"For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." [1 Cor. 5:7, NIV]  

The first indication is by John the Baptist (John 1:29) who calls Jesus the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world.

That's a novel idea for Judaism, given that no sin offering could atone for the sins not yet committed.

The more important imagery is the lamb whose death and whose blood provided the seal of a covenant

The Torah is given as the ever-lasting covenant. That which is ever-lasting cannot be replaced or fulfilled. Also the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah is for the House of Judah and the House of Israel (in other words, for the Jews only), but it's still the Old Covenant except that it is written on the hearts so that no one needs to be taught to keep it.

Just as the Israelites ate the lamb as a seal of the old covenant, we too must eat the lamb of God (Jesus's body in the Eucharist) as the seal of the new covenant

Again, here we see almost identical beliefs in other religions, to wit: the Egyptians ate their man-god Osiris in a form of a wafer; he was also believed to have died and resurrected, and was announced by three wise men,  the "messenger" star, etc. 

The "upside down" of the OT practice is that the Passover lamb is not a Temple sacrifice, but is prepared in a household (like a Thanksgiving turkey), and not by a priest (i.e. it is not sacramental), and that Judaism does not condone human sacrifice! (cf  Leviticus18:21, 24-25; Deuteronomy 18:10; Jeremiah 7:31, 19: 5; Ezekiel 23:37, 39). 

Besides, Passover lamb was not a sin sacrifice; in other words, the lamb did not die because of Israel's sins (especially future ones!). Nowhere in the OT is any sacrifice seen as one that atones for sins in the future.

Also the Passover lamb's bones cannot be broken and the NT makes a comparison to Jesus' bones not being broken as a result, saying thereby scriptures are fulfilled [cf John 19:36; Ex 12:46].

But John's obvious cherry-picking leaves out, conveniently, that the same Exodus 12 says that the lamb must not be blemished, whereas Jesus is described in the Gospels as having been horribly "blemished" by Roman torture. How come some things in the scriptures apply and others don't?

Likewise, the same OT makes it clear that sin sacrifice had to be administered by a Jewish priest, not pagan soldiers. The blood of the sacrificed animal would be sprinkled on the altar and on the curtain by a Temple priest.

2,375 posted on 01/31/2011 8:25:33 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos; caww
Lev 5:1-4 describes sacrifices for wilful sins

Yes, some exceptions are wilful but most are not.

Also, the sacrifice of Christ IS for unwitting sin (Adam's) -- repentence is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent.

I am glad you noticed that. The Protestants seem to compeltely miss that point.

2,376 posted on 01/31/2011 8:28:17 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: MarkBsnr

They were thrown out of Spain , France and Portugal among other places for their mischief ... apparently they were hurting Roman Catholics then too.

They certainly have done plenty of mischief in South America with their Liberation Theology and murdered plenty of Roman Catholics there too.

They have been accused of poisoning a Pope also after he tried to suppress the Jesuits .
Think about that just a minute THEY HAVE BEEN ACCUSED OF POISONING A POPE


2,377 posted on 01/31/2011 8:31:15 PM PST by Lera
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To: kosta50

The more I read of your responses the more evident it becomes why you cannot see the truth...even when it’s clearly explained. Rather you do oppose it at every turn, and use scripture to oppose scripture. Seems to me another did just that as well. You know just enough of the truth to distort and make the claims which you do. That of course you are free to do, but it’s become very difficult to take your comments seriously. The obvious is all too just that.

May you eventually recognize the truth and take hold of it for yourself....and when you do you will see as you ought to see...clearly and distinctly.


2,378 posted on 01/31/2011 8:36:54 PM PST by caww
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To: HarleyD
[It's not really a choice is it? Choosing between all good and all bad is not a choice.] If there is no choice there is no free will decision either. AND THAT, MY FRIEND, IS THE POINT!!!!!

No, that was not your point, HD, you claim it is a "free" choice. But there is no free choice in predestination, period.

The only way for you to make that choice is for God to open up your eyes through faith that He gives you.

You don't make the choice. The choice has bene made for you according to your religion. It's not a choice; it's predestined, predetermined, preprogrammed, like death. Dying is not an option, or a choice; its a certainty.

2,379 posted on 01/31/2011 8:42:50 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: betty boop

Saved Screwtape...I also love C.S.....I remember my first reading...”Mere Chrisitanity”....it stretched my young Christin mind...forced me to slow reading down in order to understand.

We’re in the direct path of the “icey mix” and snow area that’s coming! Yikes! Freezing rain and sleet and snow! It isn’t going to be pretty here. And we still are snow covered from the last storm too. Though roads are clear.


2,380 posted on 01/31/2011 8:52:56 PM PST by caww
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To: MarkBsnr
By now you have gone through my posting history... And you have found I have never attacked the Catholic church, as Bill Clinton said ".. "Not one time"

Like everyone who seeks the truth, I throw out 'bones for the dogs 'just to see who yaps'.

In fact, the next story I'm working on has the working title; The Day "The PADRE 'Nopu** socked it to the West Virginia National Guard".

2,381 posted on 01/31/2011 8:56:20 PM PST by investigateworld (Free Traders don't need guns 'cause they know The Peoples Republic of China are their friends)
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To: betty boop; spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD; James C. Bennett; YHAOS; MHGinTN; metmom
So, the next question becomes: Why do people "close" their souls against God?

They don't. The Pharaoh had no choice. It's like dying; your Bible says it's predestined, and Paul says it God's will, not yours:

Now, you may wish to believe otherwise, but your Bible says it's not your will or choice.

2,382 posted on 01/31/2011 8:56:36 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: grey_whiskers
thew 26:24...Mark 14:21...Luke 22:22

The topic was not apostasy but who determines faith, God or man.

Do you think Judas has a "choice"? LOL!

and Matthew 18:6...Mark 9:42...Luke 17:2

It is debatable what the writers mean by σκανδαλίζω (scandalizo), the Greek word which is found in those verses. The KJV says "offend" rather than [make them] "stumble".

At any rate, obviously the synoptic writers had a different opinion from Paul who said "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."[Romans 9:16], fwiw.

2,383 posted on 01/31/2011 9:12:17 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: MarkBsnr

“The Church was not persecuting.”

Innocent VIII’s crusade against the Waldenses wasn’t persecution?
I’d like to see your dictionary definition of what persecution is and see whether a murderous crusade would fit.

“What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?”

Prayerfully, only those Christ taught his followers. Try as I might I don’t find killing ANYONE allowed and if you do you haven’t said so yet. Is there a reason?


2,384 posted on 01/31/2011 9:14:40 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix; investigateworld; betty boop; HarleyD; Iscool
Do you attend a church? Read the Bible? Attend ecumenical meetings? Somewhere there is a leader. Who is that leader and to what are they leading you?

I am a bakery shop kid, God Himself leads me.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. – Romans 8:1

I believe if a man came up to Billy Graham even at his advanced age and said “I want to be just like you, I will follow you to death” that Billy Graham would rent his clothes and repent in dust and ashes for he has spent his entire life pointing to Jesus.

Compare that to Jim Jones and Applewhite and David Koresh whose followers literally died with them. And compare that to L.Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith.

I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

I follow the Good Shepherd, not man, any man.

But seriously, how do you try the spirits?

I follow Jesus’ example and simply ask who they say Jesus IS.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matthew 22:42

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15-18

You continued:

Is not satan more powerful than any man?

Not a man filled with the Holy Spirit but we are to be respectful evidently because his fate is in God’s hands:

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. - James 4:7

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. – Jude 9

You continued:

It took all that Jesus had to withstand satan, no?

No. Jesus withstood Satan’s temptations by speaking the words of God.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. – Matt 4:7

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. – Matt 4:10

The words of God are spirit, powerful and quickening.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

You continued:

Are you reducing the condition of love to the fulfillment of whims and making that love condition upon it?

I said “When we love someone, we want what he wants.”

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. – Matt 16:23

You continued.

me: Indeed, when a person loves another deeply, he can no longer say whether he likes museums because she does or he does – or whether he likes cheeseburgers because she does or he does. So if we want what God wants it is because we love Him. And thereby, we don't need to "sweat the details."

You: Oh boy. Our imitation of Christ involves giving up of ourselves, but we do need to sweat the details. If we worship the Mormon God, for instance, will the Christian God understand that we actually meant well, so please don't hold it against us?

We can’t be loving God with all of our hearts, minds and souls (the one and only Great Commandment) if we don’t know Who He IS.

Remember that the Church took 3 centuries to come out with the definition of the Trinity and the Canon. If we reject the Trinity or believe in the Gospel of Thomas, is that small stuff?

If a Christian – one who knows Who God IS and loves Him whole heartedly - embraces other manuscripts which do not deny His Name, I trust God will not hold it against him.

Also, you give the Church the glory for defining the Trinity. That glory belongs to God. He revealed that Truth in Scripture:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11

You continued:

me: And finally, what may be the most difficult for us to want that God wants since it involves suffering and destruction – that Jesus will come in power and glory and put down the rebellion that began with Satan and spread through Adam to mankind and then make all things new according to His will.

you: I have no idea what you mean here.

I chose some end of days passages, but feel free to choose your own. The point is that some of the things God wants are going to hurt a lot of people. If we love Him surpassingly above all else, we will be saying “even so, come Lord Jesus.”

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. - Revelation 22:20

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

2,385 posted on 01/31/2011 9:24:05 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: caww
It's equally difficult for me to take anything you say seriously because it's all judgment, no substance. You are under no obligation to read what I post. I pinged you as a matter of courtesy because Cronos did.
2,386 posted on 01/31/2011 9:27:44 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: investigateworld
Thank you so much for pinging me to this sidebar, dear investigateworld!
2,387 posted on 01/31/2011 9:28:54 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: kosta50; betty boop; spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD; James C. Bennett; YHAOS; ...

Pharaoh did have a choice, at first. He was the one who initially hardened his heart.

God wishes all to come to repentance, but sometimes He gives people what they want.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

.

Even you...

.

Acts 17:24-31 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for

“’In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your own poets have said,

“’For we are indeed his offspring.’

Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”


2,388 posted on 01/31/2011 9:50:02 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MarkBsnr

But Mark the catholics I know do indeed believe that it all must pass thru the church and their teachings...I have yet to meet one catholic who knows more than attendance at Mass and none know the scriptures. They don’t understand what “relationship” with Christ is about...let alone the Holy Spirits workings in their life. It’s all about ‘practicing catholicism’. So yes, those I’ve met do believe it all comes thru the church.


2,389 posted on 01/31/2011 9:56:45 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom
Thank you so much for those beautiful Scriptures, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for sharing your insights!
2,390 posted on 01/31/2011 9:59:01 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: caww; MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change; ..

Sad to say, but it appears that FRoman Catholics are seriously out of touch with mainstream, grassroots Catholicism.

They don’t seem to have any idea what the average lay Catholic thinks, knows, and believes. We former Catholics keep trying to tell them and they either deny it or change the subject or accuse us of making it up, or we’re *poorly catechized*.

ANYTHING but admit that we know what we’re talking about from honest to goodness, real life experience and conversations.

WE’RE not the ones who don’t know what’s going on in the Catholic church.


2,391 posted on 01/31/2011 10:05:35 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

It is difficult to understand why they cannot see their memebership is as lax as they are. Oh they may recite the Rosary and mention what their Priest might say. But do have dialogue about scriptures, or why they believe what they do..it’s always about what the church says. They do practice Churchianity rather than Christianity.

Of course there are those who are sincere in their faith and do study...but I’m speaking of those I have met.


2,392 posted on 01/31/2011 10:15:32 PM PST by caww
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To: betty boop

Thanks. I loved the Screwtape Letters, but do not remember this part. It was quite some time ago. I “Favorites” it and will definitely read it in its entirety.


2,393 posted on 01/31/2011 10:16:11 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: MarkBsnr; count-your-change
They were prosecuted as ersatz Christians who followed another Gospel and were thought to lead others astray. Not persecuted. If your loved one's immortal soul is in danger of eternal damnation, what lengths would you go to? How far would you go to convince them of their error?

I sure as hades wouldn't torture them! Ever hear of the Holy Spirit, and do you know why he is in the world? (hint John 16:7-9)

2,394 posted on 01/31/2011 10:26:01 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: metmom; betty boop; spirited irish; xzins; HarleyD; James C. Bennett
Pharaoh did have a choice, at first. He was the one who initially hardened his heart

But God made the final decision. My question was who makes the final decision if you will believe or not? Man or God and betty boop said she, of course! If that's the case then God is a mere provider and man is the final decider. That's not what Christianity teaches and that's not what your own scripture says.

God wishes all to come to repentance, but sometimes He gives people what they want

What about those who can't wish? Paul says he was predestined to preach the gospel; God decided for him (set him apart) when he was born. What sort of a choice is that and where does man's will come in? And what does it count for?

Acts 17:24-31

Who decides if man shall believe and be saved or not believed and be lost? Man or God? Who's in charge?

2,395 posted on 01/31/2011 10:28:34 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: topcat54
"Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology."

Depends on what you mean by "Reformed Theology."

2,396 posted on 01/31/2011 10:28:34 PM PST by cookcounty (Knives, Guns, Enemies and Axx-Kicks: The Gentle Political Speech of President Barrimore Soetero.)
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To: metmom
Sad to say, but it appears that FRoman Catholics are seriously out of touch with mainstream, grassroots Catholicism.

I see them like the liberal media - while they babble away, I laugh at the deception they speak and the control they display. The RC are closing churches, they have ad campaigns seducing people into their web while they pay off victims. Then one looks at the RCC's history - and it's one big ugly picture! Garbage in, garbage out!

The price they pay for not making God's Word The Final Authority is warranted, IMO.
2,397 posted on 01/31/2011 10:31:11 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Hey, Dr. E, in other words:


2,398 posted on 01/31/2011 10:41:57 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

Now that’s a BIG cat!


2,399 posted on 01/31/2011 10:47:27 PM PST by caww
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To: MarkBsnr; HarleyD
Paul did not preach the Trinity in his letters.

Now, Mark, you have been corrected on this many times. Here is just ONE verse that Paul wrote, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Does that sound like "trinity" to you? You want me to post the other ones or do you still have them from the LAST time we discussed this?

2,400 posted on 01/31/2011 10:54:56 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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