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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: kosta50
repentance is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent.....Yes, that is correct, all of it.

non-venial sins? LOL! Sin is sin - obviously, though not according to man made teachings but to GOD, sin is sin. Guilty of one, guilty of all. No plea bargains, no probation in His Kingdom!
2,401 posted on 01/31/2011 10:57:23 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
non-venial sins? LOL! Sin is sin - obviously, though not according to man made teachings but to GOD, sin is sin. Guilty of one, guilty of all.

Not in Protestant Christianity. Once you become a Proddy, sin counts for naught. Talk about man made teahcings... :)

2,402 posted on 01/31/2011 11:06:44 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: kosta50
Not in Protestant Christianity. Once you become a Proddy, sin counts for naught. Talk about man made teahcings... :)

That's according to 'the man without The Spirit' understanding!

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND them, because they are spiritually discerned".
2,403 posted on 01/31/2011 11:22:17 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: MarkBsnr

The Church was not persecuting. They did their best to convince them to return to the Faith because the Church was afraid for their very souls. What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?


So by this reasoning the Catholic Church killed them to save them from losing their souls only by killing them they ensured their damnation if they really thought they were heretics.

BIBLE BELIEVING Christians pray for those that they see are heading to damnation they DON’T kill them to make sure they are damned . Oh and many BIBLE BELIEVING Christians also spend hours trying to point out to those they think are in err and in danger of being damned the error of their ways on threads just like this. You see the difference is BIBLE BELIEVING Christians don’t think like the world does.

Oh and BIBLE BELIEVING Christians don’t force conversions either because if you don’t come and surrender your life to Christ willingly your NOT one.

John:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


2,404 posted on 01/31/2011 11:24:54 PM PST by Lera
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To: kosta50; caww
Lev 5:1-4 describes sacrifices for wilful sins. Yes, some exceptions are wilful but most are not.

True -- however, Original Sin or Original Stain as I prefer to call it is NOT a wilful sin.

Cronos: Also, the sacrifice of Christ IS for unwitting sin (Adam's) -- repentence is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent.
Kosta: I am glad you noticed that. The Protestants seem to compeltely miss that point

Yes -- and that's a very good point, God asks us to repent for our wilful sins, He tells us to do penance for these wilful sins. The sins that were NOT wilful, there had to be a sacrifice.

So the idea in the OT was, to put it in bad English "you do bad, you do penance. If you don't know you have "bad" stain, then a sacrifice is necessary"

This of course is translated into NT-speak as "If you sin, you must do penance, but the major sin, the Original one, so to speak, that needed a sacrifice. This was a sin of the highest nature and it needed a sacrifice of the highest nature, namely Christ.
2,405 posted on 01/31/2011 11:37:25 PM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; Lera
Btw, Kosta, how do you like Lera saying that the Georgian Orthodox Seminary in Tiflis was supposedly run by Jesuits! :o

I didn't know Jesusits now set up Orthodox seminaries!!! :-P
2,406 posted on 01/31/2011 11:39:01 PM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr

Mark may be looking for that Scripture that says shake the dust off your feet and then kill them all.
It will take a while.


2,407 posted on 01/31/2011 11:48:26 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: presently no screen name
That's according to 'the man without The Spirit' understanding!

So why do you post to me? Just so you can tell me that I am a man without the Spirit's understanding? Are you bored?

Fact is, Protestants believe their sins count for naught. They are saved and nothing can change that.

2,408 posted on 01/31/2011 11:49:16 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos; Lera
Btw, Kosta, how do you like Lera saying that the Georgian Orthodox Seminary in Tiflis was supposedly run by Jesuits! :o

I didn't know Jesusits now set up Orthodox seminaries!!! :-P

I saw that in passing and just went "Oy!" and shrugged my shoulders. I suppose the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are a loot closer than we thought, huh? :) LOL!

2,409 posted on 01/31/2011 11:51:49 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: kosta50

loot = lot


2,410 posted on 01/31/2011 11:52:18 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos
The Apostolic Church always saw Christ's sacrifice as liberating mankind from the bondage of the ancestral sin, an unwitting trap—a pit into which Adam and Eve fell and trapped all their descendents—in the form of obligate death. Christ broke the gates of hell and defeated death, theater liberating mankind of its hold.

But man still remains responsible for his own sins and can, ultimately, be lost because of them unless he repents. The participation in the life of the Church is geared towards repentance and spiritual healing through sacraments.

Thus, the Church accurately inherited the concept of sacrificial necessity for unwitting sins and retained the necessity of active repentance for willfully committed sins.

The Protestants, on the other hand, created a man-friendly theology according to which one's own sins count for naught once you declare your faith in Christ.

2,411 posted on 02/01/2011 12:05:12 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: kosta50
Just so you can tell me that I am a man without the Spirit's understanding?

Not me, but God through HIS WORD.

Fact is, Protestants believe their sins count for naught. They are saved and nothing can change that.

Since it's not a fact, it's already changed. Without the SPIRIT, a man only thinks he knows about God's Word. God knows what is NEEDED to understand HIS Word. But prideful man 'thinks' he can accomplish what God says he can't.
2,412 posted on 02/01/2011 12:43:48 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: kosta50
The Protestants, on the other hand, created a man-friendly theology according to which one's own sins count for naught once you declare your faith in Christ.

Or, in the case of Calvinists, your sins, if they can still even be called that without abusing language, preordained by God in kind, in number, and in extent, count for nothing if you're one of the elect and count for everything if you're not, though it's neither a man nor God-friendly theology.
2,413 posted on 02/01/2011 12:44:49 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
uhuh, Dr. E, becoming personal is quite typical when one can't answer a question

Remember you were warned in post #2001 and your post #2168 was pulled.
2,414 posted on 02/01/2011 12:52:56 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Religion Moderator
uhuh, Dr. E, becoming personal " your idiotic comments "

Remember you were warned in post #2001 and your post #2168 was pulled.
2,415 posted on 02/01/2011 12:53:22 AM PST by Cronos
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To: presently no screen name; kosta50
Without the SPIRIT, a man only thinks he knows about God's Word. God knows what is NEEDED to understand HIS Word. But prideful man 'thinks' he can accomplish what God says he can't.

Of course, if you're talking from a Calvinist perspective then such words as "think" and "prideful" and "accomplish" are devoid of meaning when used to describe man since both he and they are the products of but a single will. If you're talking from a Christian perspective, then anyone can understand God's word sufficiently to come to salvation since the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
2,416 posted on 02/01/2011 12:54:14 AM PST by aruanan
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To: presently no screen name

Nonsense.


2,417 posted on 02/01/2011 12:56:36 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: aruanan
Or, in the case of Calvinists, your sins, if they can still even be called that without abusing language, preordained by God in kind, in number, and in extent, count for nothing if you're one of the elect and count for everything if you're not, though it's neither a man nor God-friendly theology.

Yes, exactly. But some of these zealots will post to me just so they can then say (no matter what I say) "you have no spirit". Childish.

2,418 posted on 02/01/2011 12:58:36 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: kosta50
Nonsense.

To a man without the Spirit only. "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2,419 posted on 02/01/2011 1:07:03 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

More nonsense. It is unrelated to my posts. Are you bored?


2,420 posted on 02/01/2011 1:09:52 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So, do you think that the comments made by the OPC are idiotic?

Comments like these from the OPC website
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.
Arminians = Methodists, Pentecostals, some Baptists. So, as an OPCer, do you agree to this OPC belief that all Methodists, Pentecostals etc. are damnable heretics?
2,421 posted on 02/01/2011 1:10:40 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr
Earlier than that. What you hold in your hands is not what the Council approved. For one thing, it is in English.

So are you saying that the Church lost the scriptures? There are many sites in which you can download and translate the Latin version.

Where is the authority that approved your Bible, Harley? And who?

That is another issue. If you can't agree that the scriptures exists and are infallible, then it doesn't matter who approves what, does it?

2,422 posted on 02/01/2011 1:11:17 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: kosta50; caww; HarleyD
Kosta: Judaism has 613 mitzvot (commandments) given in the Law, which God gave directly to Moses, of which slightly more than a half are the mitzvot of omission and the rest of commission. The intent is crucial. Those that would count as unforgivable are those intentional and premeditated

Exactly -- and the Original STAIN would count as an unintentional sin and on our part non-premeditated.

Cronos: Also, the sacrifice of Christ IS for unwitting sin (Adam's) -- repentance is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent
Kosta: Yes, that is correct, all of it.

Yes, penance is needed for our wilful sins. Christ, the sacrifice took away the mitzvot of omission
2,423 posted on 02/01/2011 1:14:19 AM PST by Cronos
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To: aruanan
If you're talking from a Christian perspective, then anyone can understand God's word sufficiently to come to salvation since the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Then we should reject God's Word for yours? You had to read God's Word before you realized you needed a Savior?
2,424 posted on 02/01/2011 1:19:50 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: MarkBsnr; Cronos
Scriptures cannot be infallible.

Thank you very much. Your's is not a unique view in the Church. I hope some will realize how much error Rome is teaching these days and how far the Church has moved from it's foundation.

2,425 posted on 02/01/2011 1:19:52 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: kosta50
More nonsense. It is unrelated to my posts. Are you bored?

Oh really? Are you confused? Sin is sin.

repentance is still necessary in the Christian world for our non-venial sins. We are not Calvinists to believe that we should not repent...(Kosta 50)..Yes, that is correct, all of it.
2,426 posted on 02/01/2011 1:25:23 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums
Thank you. I'm on flu medication and I was probably delirious when I wrote it. ;O)
2,427 posted on 02/01/2011 1:25:52 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: daniel1212; HarleyD; Alamo-Girl; count-your-change
For clarification, are you saying that the RCC does not hold Scripture to be infallible in its original mss (as do most evangelicals)?

Please check out post 2425.

2,428 posted on 02/01/2011 1:34:00 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: betty boop; spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD
There are a number of additional themes running in the Screwtape letters like
  1. After the dedication, Lewis has two quotes, both mocking the devil: one by Martin Luther and the other by Thomas More. The great hero of the Protestant Reformation Luther, alongside St. Thomas More, a Catholic heroes of the Counter-Reformation. And BOTH have the same theme of mocking the devil
  2. The entire book elaborates free will.
  3. Of course the key theme is that we can fall into two extremes that are error-prone: denying demons exist or getting obsessed with them

2,429 posted on 02/01/2011 1:37:53 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Lera
For someone who says they aren't in the habit of posting lies....

You said that Stalin was supposedly taught by Jesuits. You then said, oh, "He attended Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia"

I pointed out to you that
he was Georgian Orthodox, this was a Georgian Orthodox seminary -- Jesuits generally don't set up Orthodox seminaries......

And he was from Georgia, the ex-Soviet state in the Caucasus, not the American one, you know.

Stop posting lies like Jesuits taught (and ran a Georgian Orthodox seminary to boot!) Josef Stalin
Finally, you dig around for where he uses JesuitICAL as an adjective --> that's hilarious!! Stalin learnt at a Georgian ORTHODOX seminary -- those are not run by Jesuits.

in the biography he is supposed to say "Jesuitical discipline that crushed me so mercilessly at the Seminary. " --> you DO know what an adjective is, right?

Please stop posting lies like this.
2,430 posted on 02/01/2011 1:44:59 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; Lera; metmom
You mean that the Holy Spirit does not report to Calvin?

you never know what Calvinists may believe.

These Calvinists also say that Calvin improved on Augustine and Paul.

The Calvinists also say that "That's Christianity, that's Calvinism" showing that they dismiss the Lutherans, Catholics, Pentecostals etc. -- this is apparent on their website where they say that Arminianism (preached by Methodists, Pentecostals etc.) "is a damnable heresy" showing that they consider Pentecostals, Methodists etc. as "preaching a satanic gospel"
2,431 posted on 02/01/2011 1:48:11 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; caww

Ok — not doubting you or saying I’m any kind of expert on Egyptian mythology, but I have not read or seen any instance of a lamb in egyptian mythology. Do you have any links to that? I would be interested to read more, thanks.


2,432 posted on 02/01/2011 1:50:13 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; MarkBsnr
Mark: If that is true, then why did satan and 1/3 of all the angels choose to reign in hell rather than serve in Heaven?

I missed this question.

Did Satan have a "free choice" to choose to reign in hell? If so, do angels today still have a "free choice"?

As boatbums explained, most people believe that Satan fell not because he had a choice but because of pride. There is some evidence to support this claim although we'll never know. I personally think (and this is Harley's explanation mind you) that Satan fall was like Adam. In both cases, they lacked the wisdom of God to make the right decision. Rather than ask God for wisdom from above, as we are commanded in scripture to do, they decided to follow their own course.

When we depart from being dependent on the Lord, we will fail. Which is exactly what the Lord is trying to teach us as Christians-to become more dependent on Him. The other 2/3 of the angels are totally dependent on the Lord.

2,433 posted on 02/01/2011 1:51:22 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: daniel1212; caww; kosta50

Yet, Kosta brings a good point about the differences between the tanakh and the OT. Startling differences — read the blog by “jew with a view”. It’s quite interesting.


2,434 posted on 02/01/2011 1:51:55 AM PST by Cronos
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To: daniel1212; caww; kosta50
we are warned that those converts who forsake the (persecuted) Christian fellowship, and go on in impenitent willful sin (including going back into their former faith) have effectively denied and despised the faith

And yet, that very statement implies:
  1. That one can reject the graces of God (thereby denying Irresistable Grace)
  2. That one can lose one's salvation (thereby denying double predestination)
  3. That penance and repentence is key for forgiveness. It doesn't forgive the sin, but we must do penance for the wilful sin

2,435 posted on 02/01/2011 1:54:22 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50
No, that was not your point, HD, you claim it is a "free" choice. But there is no free choice in predestination, period.

Of course there is no free choice in predestination. There is no free choice. If you could rationally choose between heaven or hell, then the rational choice would be to go to heaven. God would have to give everyone the ability to rationally make a choice and, if they had that choice, they would choose heaven. Everyone would go to heaven.

You don't make the choice. The choice has bene made for you according to your religion.

Of course you make a choice. It's the choice that you would rationally make once God opens up you eyes and ears.

2,436 posted on 02/01/2011 2:01:34 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: MarkBsnr; investigateworld
Hey -- a fellow engineer! I'm a mechanical engineer which means we bummed around learning everything from thermodynamics to electronics to electrical engineering to computers and would look puzzled if we ever opened up a scooter engine (but we could design it ;-P)

I too spent some time in my teens and early 20s investigating and seeking around -- my aunt was some type of "born-again" but is back to the Catholic fold now, so I investigated that, then read the Bible in detail (but I'm far from an expert, more like an idiot who knows how big an idiot he is :-), read the Koran, Avesta, Ramayana, went through the entire tired stream of authors who think Christianity is derived from Mazdaism and it turned out they were wrong. And, then in my 20s by chance I attended a parish in the UK where the priest had a bible discussion group -- not just reading, but reading, reflecting, questioning. All questions were open, like any Catholic study group. And I started reading the early church fathers, the history of the Church, the early heresies, the teachings of the Calvinists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Adventists. And in the end I'm stronger in my faith -- if other folks want to be Calvinist or even Moslem,Hindu etc. let them. If they ask me why I believe what I believe, I'll tell them. If they attack the Christian faith, then the gloves come off.
2,437 posted on 02/01/2011 2:07:23 AM PST by Cronos
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To: daniel1212; HarleyD; Alamo-Girl; count-your-change
A person can be fallible/infallible.

A book can be errant/inerrant.

A person cannot be errant/inerrant and a book cannot be fallible/infallible.

The Bible is inerrant, without errors. That is Church belief and doctrine.

This was repeated in Vatican I
These books [of the canon] the Church holds to be sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author (De Fide Catholica 2:7).
and in VII
it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully, and without error that truth that God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation
This rejected any form of limited inerrancy
2,438 posted on 02/01/2011 2:11:40 AM PST by Cronos
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To: MarkBsnr; daniel1212; Lera
What is your obsession?

True -- they seem to have an unhealthy obsession that every post is somehow cross-verified by the CDF! No wonder they seem to believe that there are red-liveried Cardinal Biggles hiding behind every tree and that any time a Catholic says xyz, then these obsessed non-Catholis think it's Church doctrine!

These guys even think that when someone uses an adjective like "Jesuitical discipline" indicating a discipline as strict as the Jesuits, it means that the person was trained by Jesuits!! Even if the person in question was a Georgian Orthodox trained in a Georgina Orthodox seminary in Georgia (I wonder if they know that this is not the state of Atlanta...)

How obsessed can these outside The Church get?
2,439 posted on 02/01/2011 2:15:28 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums
You're welcome.

The Westminster Confession does NOT indicate double-predestination. This is an unbiblical belief strongly denied by any reading of Ezekiel 33.

Do you believe in double-predestination? That God pre-damns people to hell?
2,440 posted on 02/01/2011 2:18:37 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums
You're welcome.

The Westminster Confession in fact borrows from Catholic beliefs in it's statement that
God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil

Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it
--> Namely that the Church has always believed in the free will of man to freely choose to reject or accept God's grace (the grace that saves). The WC has taken this from Church teachings.

Also, the WC takes Church beliefs that God forgives and that one can lose one's salvation (which was freely given by God)
As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation;[8] so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.[9]
It takes further from Church beliefs that good works ".....strengthen one's assurance"(of salvation) and play an important part in "....that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life...."
2,441 posted on 02/01/2011 2:23:23 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Alamo-Girl; HarleyD
I didn't mean it to be encouraging, just stating the fact that Church belief is that the Bible is inerrant. This has been repeated into modern times.

HD made an error as an inanimate object cannot be infallible, but it can be inerrant (which the Bible is) and compounded it by extrapolating the misconception that the Bible was not, to saying that "most Catholics do not believe that..." which is quite an incorrect assumption. Church belief is clear, the scriptures are inerrant -- we may believe that individual interpretations of this are fallible, but that does not negate the inerrancy of scripture itself.
2,442 posted on 02/01/2011 2:27:16 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; HarleyD; MarkBsnr
Boat: remember there was no such thing as hell when Satan first rebelled

How do you know that? Wasn't Satan cast down to hell? Or are you saying Satan created hell?
2,443 posted on 02/01/2011 2:28:43 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; caww
1. "Christ died for our iniquities and yet that he was the Passover Lamb" But it doesn't say that the Passover lamb was sacrificed as a sacrifice for iniquities, rather that this was a seal of the covenant, which is what Christ was. The other aspect, namely dying for our iniquities is a separate point. 1 Cor 5:7 does not make the analogy, Passover lamb = sacrifice for iniquities, just compares the sacrifice of the Christ to the Passover lamb sacrificed as a seal

2. True. It was a novel idea, unless one postulates that John the B meant Original Stain

3. Good point about the ever-lasting covenant. I need to read up about that

The rest of your points require more careful reading by me.
2,444 posted on 02/01/2011 2:35:48 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; betty boop; spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD; James C. Bennett; YHAOS; ...
bb-Why do people "close" their souls against God?

k-Now, you may wish to believe otherwise, but your Bible says it's not your will or choice.

No, you're missing the point. It IS your will. Your will is to do the things that are not of God. God must pry your heart open to hear His word. When the scripture tells us God hardens a person's heart, such as He did with Pharaoh, what it is saying is that God is not prying their hearts open. He just leave it as it is. The result is a further hardening.

2,445 posted on 02/01/2011 2:38:37 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Lera; HarleyD
Do read a bit Lera before posting lies like the one accusing Jesuits of running a GEORGIAN ORTHODOX seminary that Stalin attended. Second lie you repeated is about the despicable german -- he never attended any Jesuit place of learning.

Third, your recent post displays the same strong lack of knowledge of history.
2,446 posted on 02/01/2011 2:47:14 AM PST by Cronos
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To: caww; MarkBsnr
I have yet to meet ...

And yet, you have met electronically quite a few catholics who know more than attendance at Mass and know the scriptures
2,447 posted on 02/01/2011 2:50:14 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; MarkBsnr; presently no screen name
Actually, those who left the Catholic Church in the 60s and 70s are the ones who don’t seem to have any idea what the average lay Catholic thinks, knows, and believes.

We Catholics believe in ONE God, Father SON and Holy SPirit. We believe that Jesus Christ is God. God from God, light from light, TRUE God from true God. Begotten not made. Of ONE being with the Father, through whom all things were made.

now if anyone does not believe that, then no wonder they would leave the Catholic Church
2,448 posted on 02/01/2011 2:52:45 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; kosta50; caww
Kosta: Judaism has 613 mitzvot (commandments) given in the Law, which God gave directly to Moses...The intent is crucial. Those that would count as unforgivable are those intentional and premeditated

Cronos-Exactly -- and the Original STAIN would count as an unintentional sin and on our part non-premeditated.

Our Lord said that all the laws could be summed up in two commandments,

Does anyone think they really intentionally do these two things?

Don't try loop holes with God. It doesn't work.

2,449 posted on 02/01/2011 2:54:43 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; boatbums; Quix
Dr. Eckleburg saying Learn from my words

Typical ARROGANCE from the OPC rubber-bible cult.

They want CONTROL of everyone and everything. No wonder the OPCer says "That's Calvinis, that's Christianity". No wonder the OPC calls Arminians damnable heretics.
2,450 posted on 02/01/2011 2:55:25 AM PST by Cronos
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