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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: presently no screen name
to GOD, sin is sin.

Ah, it seems someone hasn't read Matthew 12:31-32

Reject your man-made teachings.
2,451 posted on 02/01/2011 2:56:41 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; presently no screen name

Kosta — that’s only by the extreme loons among the Protestants, many of whom are no longer even Christian. They believe that they can sin more and more to get more grace.


2,452 posted on 02/01/2011 2:57:38 AM PST by Cronos
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To: kosta50; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD

betty: so the question is, why do they close their souls?

Spirited: Romans 3: 9-20 provides the answer-—their souls are partly to mostly closed to begin with. Plato certainly understood this, as did Tertullian, Irenaeus, Augustine, etc.

kosta: But God made the final decision. My question was who makes the final decision if you will believe or not? Man or God and betty boop said she, of course! If that’s the case then God is a mere provider and man is the final decider.
Speaking of Pharoah and Paul, kosta said: God decided for him (set him apart) when he was born. What sort of a choice is that and where does man’s will come in? And what does it count for?

Spirited: While God the Father “knows the heart of men,” which means that He knows who will ultimately accept His invitation and who will ultimately reject, men do —NOT-—know. This knowledge is not given to men. But if they presume to know-—to read the mind of God the Father-— then by their presumption they will ultimately condemn themselves.


2,453 posted on 02/01/2011 2:59:37 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: kosta50; Lera
Cronos: Btw, Kosta, how do you like Lera saying that the Georgian Orthodox Seminary in Tiflis was supposedly run by Jesuits! :o

Kosta: I didn't know Jesusits now set up Orthodox seminaries!!! :-P

I saw that in passing and just went "Oy!" and shrugged my shoulders. I suppose the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are a loot closer than we thought, huh? :) LOL!


Yes, it sure seems like --> Lera, when you read Georgian Orthodox, did you think Orthodox and Catholic are similar? If you do, then perhaps I should re-evaluate your sentence. However, do note that Jesuits don't run seminaries teaching people to become Georgian Orthodox priests

2,454 posted on 02/01/2011 3:01:16 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; betty boop; spirited irish; Alamo-Girl; xzins; HarleyD
There are a number of additional themes running in the Screwtape

That's true. One has to keep in mind that CS Lewis was Angelican. That doesn't mean there are gems of inspirations we can get from his writings. After all, Augustine was Catholic and I like his works. ;O)

2,455 posted on 02/01/2011 3:03:08 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr
If you bothered to read further, HD you would read that Mark said

Scripture is inerrant

You would also read me saying
that statement "many..." is false. I believe they are inerrant and all of the religious I know believe the same. Furthermore, it is the dogma of the Church
These books [of the canon] the Church holds to be sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author (De Fide Catholica 2:7).
We have rejected any form of limited inerrancy. This is repeated in VII
it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully, and without error that truth that God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation
And you would also read that only an animate entity can be infallible or fallible
2,456 posted on 02/01/2011 3:03:40 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; Alamo-Girl; MarkBsnr
HD made an error as an inanimate object cannot be infallible, but it can be inerrant (which the Bible is)

Quite frankly, I don't give two hoots what the Church has stated in writing. Shall we go back to the 4th Lateran Council of 1215 and discuss the Catholics obligations of marching to the Holy Lands? This is a pat answer of Catholics-it's in writing.

You seem far more eager to say that I made an error when I assert that Catholics no longer believe in the infallibility of scripture than you are to correct Mark's assertions that the scriptures are not infallible. Mark is not alone and it's not the first I've encountered this. There are many Catholics on this site that do not believe in the inerrant word of God. If this is representative of Catholics in the Church today, which given writings I have read, I'll stand by my statement.

Having Catholics post to me the scriptures are not infallible and then for you to turn right around and tell me that I don't know Church teachings because the Church states they are infallible is a bit disingenuous. You're talking to the wrong person.

2,457 posted on 02/01/2011 3:21:35 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Cronos; boatbums; HarleyD; MarkBsnr
How do you know that? Wasn't Satan cast down to hell? Or are you saying Satan created hell?

Isn't that a bit like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

2,458 posted on 02/01/2011 3:23:31 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Cronos; MarkBsnr
And you would also read that only an animate entity can be infallible or fallible

If you bothered to read further, HD you would read that Mark said Scripture is inerrant

HELLO!!!! What thread are you on???? From Mark's Post 2342:

How many times does he need to write it??? People can go back and read Mark's statements. He very clear and I think precise.
2,459 posted on 02/01/2011 3:43:33 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; caww

? We’re talking about sins, those which are intentional and those which aren’t


2,460 posted on 02/01/2011 3:57:00 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; Alamo-Girl; MarkBsnr
What the Church has stated in writing is what The Church believes. Anything else is hearsay. To take what a person on the street says and extrapolate that to what everyone of his religious group believes is silly.

You did make an error.

Prove your statement " Mark is not alone and it's not the first I've encountered this" --> I've already told you the Bible is inerrant to me and I've already shown you official Church doctrine on the same.
2,461 posted on 02/01/2011 4:12:37 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; MarkBsnr
Metmom -- stop talking rot.

you need to read something before commenting. One needs to read the Bible to understand that Jesus is God. On a lower level, one needs to read The catholic.com article by Karl Keating before commenting. Karl says in that article

Fallible means able to make a mistake or able to teach error. Infallible means the opposite: the inability to make a mistake or to teach error.

When we use these words, we use them regarding an active agent—that is, we use them about someone making a decision that either may or may not be erroneous (in which case that someone is fallible) or that definitely cannot be erroneous (in which case that someone is infallible).

==========================================================


But a rock is never infallible. Nor is it fallible. It is neither because it makes no decision about anything. Ditto for a plant. No sunflower ever made the right decision—or the wrong decision. In fact, no sunflower ever made any decision, properly speaking.

The same can be said of a book. No book, not even the Bible, is capable of making a decision (on it's own).

This means it would be wrong to say that the Bible is either infallible or fallible—such terms should not be used about it or about any other book.


The proper term to use, when we are saying that the Bible contains no error, is inerrant. In its teaching, a particular book may contain truth or may contain error; most likely it will teach some of each. The one exception is the Bible. The Church teaches that everything the Bible asserts (properly understood, of course) is true and therefore without error.
Stop repeating rot, Metmom
2,462 posted on 02/01/2011 4:17:28 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr


in fact, prove that Mark denies the inerrancy --> he has not said this. If you read his post 2093 which you referred, he points out that it is not fallible/infallible -- no inanimate object is.

Even more specifically, Heb 4
Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.
This needs to be read not as random verses.

Scripture cannot be fallible or infallible --> as Mark said.

Scripture IS inerrant, i.e. without error.

SCripture does not make decisions, the ones reading/interpreting it make the decisions. Only a decision making living entity can be fallible or infallible.

do you understand the differences in a word?

You and I are fallible, but we are not errant.

A book by C.S. Lewis IS errant but not fallible

The Scriptures are INERRANT.
2,463 posted on 02/01/2011 4:25:54 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; Alamo-Girl; MarkBsnr
You did make an error. Prove your statement " Mark is not alone and it's not the first I've encountered this"

I'm not going to pull other Catholics from this site into this conversation. However, I would point to Catholic Answers where in an unscientific poll 40% of the Catholics believe the Bible to contain errors.

Here's another article Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible. If you believe this to be a hit piece on the Catholic Church, I suggest you read through the Del Verbum. Please pay close attention to how the pattern shifts from the word of God to the Church in around chapter 8.

As confirmed in this article and the Del Verbum, the scriptures mean nothing. They were only meant to exist until the Church could be established and serves the Church. It is the "holding fast to traditions" that is important. Now where did I hear that one before?
2,464 posted on 02/01/2011 5:04:29 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: kosta50; presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; ..
Not in Protestant Christianity. Once you become a Proddy, sin counts for naught. Talk about man made teahcings...

It appears that the distinction you're failing to make, is between the type of sin and the consequence of sin.

Men are the ones who categorize it into lessor sins, seemingly deserving of lessor punishment and greater sins, seemingly deserving of greater punishment.

The real issue is that , regardless of whether that were true or not, all sin has the same consequence. It all leads to separation from God. The wages are the same; death. And it all has the same solution; redemption by grace through faith in the FINISHED work of Christ on the cross. When we believe Him and believe IN Him, God does not count our sins against us and we become the righteousness of Christ.

Repent and throw yourself on the mercy of the court because there sure isn't any other way to have the debt we owe for our sins canceled out.

2,465 posted on 02/01/2011 5:08:54 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: MarkBsnr; count-your-change; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ..
The Church was not persecuting. They did their best to convince them to return to the Faith because the Church was afraid for their very souls. What lengths would you go to to stop another from going over to satan?

What did Jesus do in the NT?

How does God do it today?

How did the Roman Catholic church historically do it?

Like this???

Inquisition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

God doesn't force anyone to believe. The church, ANY church, can never be justified in taking any other stand.

2,466 posted on 02/01/2011 5:13:05 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: ReformedBeckite
Obama uses fancy talk, you use fancy loud graphics

I just scroll past them whenever I see them, kind of like ads that come up on some websites.

2,467 posted on 02/01/2011 5:13:10 AM PST by Hacksaw (“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy” — H.L. Mencken)
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To: MarkBsnr
There are many here whose god is the image in the mirror. They keep it on the hall stand and pat its head for luck when they walk by...

Now that's funny coming from people who hit the deck whenever in close proximity to an idol of Mary, or carry around a St. Christopher talisman hanging from their rear view mirror...

Are you sure you guys don't already practice this stuff??? After all, you call yourselves Christians and the bible calls you saints...

And according to the bible, you are already seated in heavenly places...

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I'll bet you guys pray to statues and pictures of yourselves...Would certainly fit right in with your theology...

2,468 posted on 02/01/2011 5:22:40 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: metmom; MarkBsnr

Yet one MUST believe that Jesus Christ is GOD. I gave you a number of bible references that prove that Jesus Christ is Lord. That should be sufficient to convince anyone who claims to believe the Bible that Jesus Christ IS God


2,469 posted on 02/01/2011 5:25:13 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; Cronos; Alamo-Girl; MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
You seem far more eager to say that I made an error when I assert that Catholics no longer believe in the infallibility of scripture than you are to correct Mark's assertions that the scriptures are not infallible. Mark is not alone and it's not the first I've encountered this. There are many Catholics on this site that do not believe in the inerrant word of God. If this is representative of Catholics in the Church today, which given writings I have read, I'll stand by my statement.

Having Catholics post to me the scriptures are not infallible and then for you to turn right around and tell me that I don't know Church teachings because the Church states they are infallible is a bit disingenuous. You're talking to the wrong person.

Catholics sure sing a different tune when it comes to using Scripture to support their favorite doctrines, such as the papacy, apostolic succession, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the priesthood, works based salvation, etc.

I find it ironic and hypocritical to claim that Scripture is not infallible or inerrant and then turn around and appeal to those very Scriptures top give the Roman Catholic church its authority.

Only if Scripture is infallible and inerrant, can it give the Catholic church its absolute authority, as it claims.

If the Catholic church *gave* us Scripture, as it claims, then its authority is based only on hearsay. It claiming to be authoritative with no legitimate basis for that authority is meaningless.

Is the church built on a rock or sand?

2,470 posted on 02/01/2011 5:38:10 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
thank you. None of what you excerpted from Dei Verbum in any way says that "the scriptures mean nothing." -- on the contrary it says that the Sacred scripture is "inspired books"

"They were only meant to exist until...." --> this is never said in the excerpts or the main Dei Verbum. The history AND belief is that the community of Christians existed before canon was closed, before many of the epistles were written.

It is the "holding ....is important. --> it is important, yet it does not supplant scripture.

In contrast, if you really looked at the Dei Verbum you would see:
For Sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit,

Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings

God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.....no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out...

The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body.

Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them;

For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and so the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology.
Dei Verbum clearly says For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error
2,471 posted on 02/01/2011 5:40:56 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
thank you.

You post an internet website poll which has just 41 participants as proof of what all Catholics think???

Wow, so if I put up a poll and get 40 Americans responding to it, do I state that that is the opinion of all Americans??? That's silly.
2,472 posted on 02/01/2011 5:43:18 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
thank you.

You post a link to the Times of London as proof for what the Catholic Church teachs?? I gave you concrete statements of what the Church teaches from both Vatican I and II, I pointed out how Dei Verbum says that the Scriptures are inerrant and you then say you don't believe what the Catholic Church says in writing, but you believe what the Main-Stream-MEDIA says??
2,473 posted on 02/01/2011 5:44:50 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; kosta50; presently no screen name; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
Kosta — that’s only by the extreme loons among the Protestants, many of whom are no longer even Christian. They believe that they can sin more and more to get more grace.

First non-Catholics are accused of following Paul and then they're accused of believing something in direct contradiction to the teachings of Paul

Whatever works to best discredit them, I guess.

So maybe you could explain why you whine about non-Catholics misrepresenting the teachings of the Catholic church after that little diatribe.

2,474 posted on 02/01/2011 5:52:11 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Iscool

Ooohh.... Wa-POW!

left a mark.

:D

Hoss


2,475 posted on 02/01/2011 5:59:18 AM PST by HossB86
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To: Cronos
Let's see.

So much for serious scholarship.
2,476 posted on 02/01/2011 6:01:09 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: metmom; kosta50
Not in Protestant Christianity. Once you become a Proddy, sin counts for naught. Talk about man made teahcings...

LOL!

I think the bulk of Luther's protest against Rome was the fact that Rome was making profit from sin by selling indulgences. Jesus apparently is an economic ignoramus (something one can afford to be when one can create ex nihlo and owns the cattle on a thousand hills) because He didn't see the loads of cash that could be derived by just simply selling forgiveness - instead He freely gave up His life in full payment for our sins.

Other than Sola Scriptura this is one of the largest differences between Christianity and Roman Catholicism - you folks are still paying for your own sins, albeit in Purgatory and Community Service rather than through the proxy of Rome.

2,477 posted on 02/01/2011 6:01:30 AM PST by The Theophilus
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To: HarleyD

You expected something different?

;)

Hoss


2,478 posted on 02/01/2011 6:06:08 AM PST by HossB86
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; Alamo-Girl
thank you.

You post a link to the Times of London as proof for what the Catholic Church teachs?? I gave you concrete statements of what the Church teaches from both Vatican I and II, I pointed out how Dei Verbum says that the Scriptures are inerrant and you then say you don't believe what the Catholic Church says in writing, but you believe what the Main-Stream-MEDIA says??

Firstly -- in typical MSM lies they distorted the headline -- and you and other non-Catholics AND Catholics fell for the MSM's tricks hook line and sinker

Secondly, the article barely quotes the article at all, only the journo giving his own free interpretation of what he wants to see in the original document posted by the bishops

Thirdly,The Church has consistently weighed in that the scriptures are INERRANT
The First Vatican Council taught:

These books [of the canon] the Church holds to be sacred and canonical, not because, having been composed by human industry, they were afterwards approved by her authority; nor only because they contain revelation without error; but because, having been written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author (De Fide Catholica 2:7).
Pope Leo XIII stated that "it is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of Holy Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred" and condemned "the system of those who, in order to rid themselves of these difficulties, do not hesitate to concede that divine inspiration regards the things of faith and morals, and nothing beyond" (Providentissimus Deus 20).

Pius XII stated that the Vatican I passage cited above was a "solemn definition of Catholic doctrine, by which such divine authority is claimed for the ‘entire books with all their parts’ as to secure freedom from any error whatsoever." He repudiated those who "ventured to restrict the truth of Sacred Scripture solely to matters of faith and morals" (Divino Afflante Spiritu 1).

Finally, the only truth in the article is at the end:
Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly. That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching."
Do stop repeating the basic anti-Catholic rot --> the main-stream-media publishes these distortions because the blogosphere anti-Catholics will pick up their distortions and say "see!!"
2,479 posted on 02/01/2011 6:16:43 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; kosta50
There is a difference between Christians and non-Christians. Christians like CAtholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Pentecostals, Baptists etc. all believe that Jesus Christ IS God. Non-Christians don't believe Jesus Christ is God.

If you want more biblical proof that Jesus Christ is God besides the ones I have already given you, I can give you more.
2,480 posted on 02/01/2011 6:23:09 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
1. a. Whatever a poster says is his opinion is his opinion, to extrapolate it to all the members of his religious group is like me taking the views of an Oneness Pentecostal and saying all Protestants believe that -- it's silly.
1.b. --> Mark hasn't ever said that "scripture contains errors" -- he has just pointed out that the Bible being an inanimate non-decision making entity is neither fallible nor infallible. However, he HAS pointed out that it is inerrant, i.e. without error. No inanimate non-decision making entity can be fallible/infallible -- that word indicates a decision making capability. however, it can be errant/inerrant AND, the Bible IS inerrant.
1.c. --> I've posted you a link to what The Church teaches -- and those are pretty clear (see post 2471 above)

2. You posted a link to an internet poll of 41 people and you think that you can extrapolate that to say 1.2 billion people think that way? That's stupid, I'm sorry to say

3. I posted a link to Catholic doctrine online and you say that you don't believe what the Church puts in writing, yet you'll believe an MSM like the Times of London? Especially when the article is wrong and only quotes excerpts from the original bishops articles and out of context -- read my post 2479 for more details

4. I posted what Dei Verbum ACTUALLY says (This is what Dei Verbum actually says: "it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error", and " For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error " --> this is NOT quoted in the Times of london article, they only refer to it and give their own interpretation of it" --> refer my post 2571 for what Dei Verbum ACTUALLY says

You aren't even reading Dei verbum yourself but quoting from a misquote. REad it if you want to posit serious scholarship instead of hearsay.

2,481 posted on 02/01/2011 6:32:42 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
Let me repeat this

2. You posted a link to an internet poll of 41 people and you think that you can extrapolate that to say 1.2 billion people think that way?




That's stupid, I'm sorry to say

2,482 posted on 02/01/2011 6:34:11 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
And, let me repeat what Dei Verbum actually says once more so that you actually READ it
  1. Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit,
  2. it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings
  3. God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.....no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out..
  4. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body.
  5. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them;
  6. For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and so the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology.
Get it?
2,483 posted on 02/01/2011 6:37:35 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
Finally, you said "the Dei Verbum which is quoted in the Times of London " --> that's a lie, I repeat, that is a lie.

All that the article does say is "The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum," --> no quote from it, nothing.
2,484 posted on 02/01/2011 6:39:42 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; HossB86; MarkBsnr
If you are in any way seriously discussing, you have to admit that an internet, unscientific poll of 41 people is hardly any better than a show of hands at a discussion club and extrapolating that to 1.2 billion people is sheer stupidity.

Secondly, if you in any way want to display serious scholarship, read the Dei verbum (link above) or read the excerpts I gave you. If you want to read the REAL article that the Times of London distorts, you can download it here
2,485 posted on 02/01/2011 6:46:23 AM PST by Cronos
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To: cookcounty
Depends on what you mean by "Reformed Theology."

How so? I'm not aware of any significant debate over the meaning of the term.

2,486 posted on 02/01/2011 6:55:39 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- an error of Biblical proportions.")
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To: Iscool

2,487 posted on 02/01/2011 6:56:20 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos; HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; ...
Let me repeat this

2. You posted a link to an internet poll of 41 people and you think that you can extrapolate that to say 1.2 billion people think that way?

That's stupid, I'm sorry to say

And yet when I pointed out that most Catholics don't read the Bible and someone told me that three on FR did.

So I asked what percentage of three out of 1,200,000,000 was and was told that three out of three was 100%.

Whatever works best, eh?

2,488 posted on 02/01/2011 7:01:16 AM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg
Both of you, do not make the thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

2,489 posted on 02/01/2011 7:06:43 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Alamo-Girl

Bluntly, Alamo-Girl, it’s a hit-piece by the MSM. The Scripture is GOLD-Standard to us, Tradition must be verified against it. You may not believe that we hold Church teachings, but we do not in any way subordinate scripture.


2,490 posted on 02/01/2011 7:09:29 AM PST by Cronos
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To: HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
Let's see, you say you would believe a Times excerpted article: "another article Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible."

This is after I gave you adequate links from Catholic doctrine that we believe scripture to be inerrant and you reply that "Quite frankly, I don't give two hoots what the Church has stated in writing"
2,491 posted on 02/01/2011 7:15:11 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Religion Moderator; Dr. Eckleburg
RM, Thanks for pulling Dr. E's "marking it personal" post.

I have no intention of stooping to that level. I'll just post excerpts from the opc website that talk about how they consider Arminians as d*mnable heresy
2,492 posted on 02/01/2011 7:19:09 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; HarleyD; MarkBsnr; HossB86
Dear Metmom,

HarleyD and me, folks who believe that Jesus Christ is God are discussing Christian topics among ourselves.

If you wish, you can go to this website which has a lot of Biblical proof that Jesus Christ IS God.

Thank you and Regards,
Cronos

2,493 posted on 02/01/2011 7:23:10 AM PST by Cronos
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To: topcat54; Dr. Eckleburg

bai caramba (btw, Dr. E — that is some spanish exclamation, I don’t think it has any meaning) — you’re still there on YOUR thread after it degenerated like most into an anti-Catholic screed? :-P


2,494 posted on 02/01/2011 7:26:01 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom

“How did the Roman Catholic church historically do it?”

Pope(far from)Innocent issued an order for the extermination of the Waldeneses in France and thousands were killed.

Just makes a person long for the “good old days”.


2,495 posted on 02/01/2011 7:46:54 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Lera

Indeed.


2,496 posted on 02/01/2011 8:24:42 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Alamo-Girl

ANOTHER GREAT ONE.

Won’t likely get to Quixicating it but AM posting it on my FR home page.

Thx.


2,497 posted on 02/01/2011 8:28:38 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos; HarleyD; metmom
The Scripture is GOLD-Standard to us, Tradition must be verified against it. You may not believe that we hold Church teachings, but we do not in any way subordinate scripture.

I'm very glad to hear your testimony, dear brother in Christ!

It is deeply disturbing to me whenever a Catholic around here claims that the Catholic Church wrote the Scriptures and so forth - because such a boast appropriates glory which belongs to God. Moreover, the boast subordinates the Scriptures to the Catholic Church as the author/creator of them.

The oracles are God's and it is He who commits those oracles to safekeeping by His own chosen people.

What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. - Romans 3:1-2

As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - I Peter 4:10-11

And again,

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11

I do not recall hearing the Jews boast that they wrote Torah. Quite the opposite.

Perhaps the Catholics so boasting believe they are justified on belief that members of the Catholic Church alone comprise the body of Christ. But even if they were right (and they are not) Christ Himself is the head of His body, the church, and surely all glory for a manuscript goes to its author, his mind, not his fingers, elbows and toes.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:18

And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. - Ephesians 1:22-23

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

2,498 posted on 02/01/2011 8:29:56 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: HarleyD

Very well put.


2,499 posted on 02/01/2011 8:32:43 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Religion Moderator

Stopping 2 year old yellow water shots seems to be a recurring task for you.


2,500 posted on 02/01/2011 8:35:41 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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