Skip to comments.The Not So Secret Rapture
Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicles occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
Did they go too far? In some cases, no question.
However, this is something that needs to be said: a declaration of heresy or excommunication is not a condemnation to hell by the Church. It is the Pauline expulsion from the Church by those who would not act as Christians. It is rarely done.
I might if I accepted the validity of your logic and followed the example of the Popes instead of Christs teaching and example.
This country's early colonies were mostly iron fisted theocracies who killed and drove off those from other denominations.
Good post and very interesting to follow. Thank you.
To me, it's like gunpowder.
The Chinese of course discovered gunpowder, but they didn't figure out how to put it in a barrel with a lead ball as a military weapon or hunting tool.
I'm sure there are many other such examples of the Western mind innovating from a primitive Eastern idea, discovery or invention.
You give me wikipedia and ask me to blanket condemn based upon that? Why not toss in some Phil Schaff and top it off with some Paul Blanshard?
Am enjoying following this debate...
Yeah, give Caesar's to Caesar, and Herod's to Herod or something like that. Remember though, that Paul approved of those in charge, and asked us to pray for them.
I think it was said of Herod by a contemporary that it was better to be Herods pig than his subject.
Hadn't heard that before. I'm not surprised, though.
Being guided by the Light of His Truth. No darkness can prevail against that.
Thank God for you, dearest sister in Christ!
Semantics. Explain the practical difference.
And it did not escape my notice that you never answered one of the questions.
You should read this
The Secret History of the Jesuits
Written by a former Jesuit Priest
I do not believe it in that way. Rather, God knows the end from the beginning, right? He knows before we even existed whether we would believe in Christ or not. He predestined that those who believed would be conformed to the image of Christ. He predestined, as well, that those who rejected Christ would be condemned. In light of this, is it really wrong to say God pre-damns someone?
Again, since God knows before we are created whether we will end up in heaven or hell, based on our belief or unbelief, and he STILL allows us to be born knowing that some of us will not be with him in heaven, then, I can see why some people express this concept in this way.
Personally, I would not say it that way, that God predetermines who will believe and who will not. I wouldn't say that God intentionally creates some people to go to hell and they have no choice in the matter. I DO believe that God so loved THE WORLD, just like Jesus said, and that he gave his son that WHOSOEVER believes in him will have eternal life. It sounds to me like Jesus is saying that we must make the choice to trust in him and that God doesn't "pre-program" us to do so or not to do so.
“I see. When Protestants do it, it’s okay.”
Nay, not so. In this the Reformation did not reform but only changed leadership. Murder in the name of Christ is murder.
But Catholics claim that THEY have the one true and apostolic church and must be viewed from the standpoint of their claims about themselves.
If there are Protestants justifying similar acts I would respond in the same way.
As Jesus said to the Pharisees at Luke 11:48,’You are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers and you give consent to them, these killed the prophets and you build tombs to them’.
Anyone can go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and read the specious reasoning justifying and excusing and blame shifting ad nauseum.
Well so I did.
And so am still wondering why you think Jesus Christ had any problem at all resisting Satan's temptations. In the first place, Jesus didn't want any of the things Satan offered him (not that any of them were in Satan's gift in the first place).
Please do clue me in on the details I'm obviously missing here, dear MarkBsnr....
The people in the following passage were physically hearing Jesus but they could spiritually hear Him:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14
Nevertheless, again I say, to God be the glory, not man, never man.
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. Psalms 19:1-3
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. - Revelation 4:11
I disagree. Since "infallible" is an adjective and adjectives describe nouns or pronouns, the Bible can certainly be called infallible. According to "Aunt Merriam":
infallible - 3 dictionary results
in·fal·li·ble /ɪnˈfæləbəl/ [in-fal-uh-buhl] adjective
1. absolutely trustworthy or sure: an infallible rule.
2. unfailing in effectiveness or operation; certain: an infallible remedy.
3. not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements: an infallible principle.
|Cronos: :"What rot are you talking about? Josef Stalin was born in Georgia, at sixteen, he received a scholarship to a Georgian Orthodox seminary, where he rebelled against the imperialist and religious order"
Lera: "He attended Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia"
Cronos: he was Georgian Orthodox, this was a Georgian Orthodox seminary -- Jesuits generally don't set up Orthodox seminaries......
And he was from Georgia, the ex-Soviet state in the Caucasus, not the American one, you know.
Stop posting lies like Jesuits taught (and ran a Georgian Orthodox seminary to boot!) Josef Stalin
Devils DO exist. The simplest way to know if there is a spirit at play is to pray to God, call on God, Jesus Christ and firmly tell the demon Vade retro Satana: Step back/go away Satan
“I think it was said of Herod by a contemporary that it was better to be Herods pig than his subject.”
Variations of the saying are attributed to Augustus.
are only from 41 people,
I don't recall what the total samples would be over the several studies but IIRC, it would be several thousand, if not many thousand.
- Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit,
- it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings
- God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.....no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out..
- The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body.
- Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them;
- For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and so the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology.
Thank you, dear brother in Christ!
“However, this is something that needs to be said: a declaration of heresy or excommunication is not a condemnation to hell by the Church. It is the Pauline expulsion from the Church by those who would not act as Christians. It is rarely done”
That said, what does this from the Catechism mean in light of the above?
“1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs”
Heresy is a mortal sin, No? and death in a state of automatic excommunication? Well, you tell me...
In fact the OPC says this about those who deny the non-scriptural double-predestination, God pre-damns people idea of the followers of Calvin. Hence they condemn followers of Christ like Methodists/Pentecostals etc. here is a quote from the OrthodoPresbyterianC sitethe OPC with its double-predestination seems to willingly cause its cultists to plumb the depths of despair since they do not believe in repentence, then anyone who fails then is told by the OPC that they were never Christian.Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....
The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....
Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,
Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.
1) I have a Catholic on this site tell me the scriptures contain errors (several times) and post the references . You ignore that.
2) I post a link to Catholic Answers that shows 40% do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture and this is illustrated by their answers. You ignore that.
3) I post an article by the Times of London that arrives at the same conclusion and you said that is wrong.
4) I post the Dei Verbum which is quoted in the Times of London and clearly shows a transition from the inerrant word of God to the Church. And your response is this is just a bunch of what the MSM says?!?
So much for serious scholarship.
Your excellent evidence once again reveals the stubborn fact that the RCC says one thing, then another, and yet another, all depending on the phase of the moon and the time of day.
For every statement of doctrine, Rome can and does produce an opposing statement of doctrine, equally affirmed.
No wonder Rome grants thousands of annulments each year. Now they're married. Now they're not.
Read your Bible, Cronos. You appear stuck on one opinion of one person.
And like the pope, that person is not infallible.
It's really rather convenient.
When they're discussing Catholic doctrine with someone, no matter what the non-Catholic says, they're always wrong.
And the Catholic can *prove* it with quotes from the CCC to back himself (or herself) up.
|Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....
Are Arminian preachers heretics?
Is Arminianism a damnable heresy?.
44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth. 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.The Gentiles believed, and were appointed for eternal life - , this is Acts 13, and Acts 10 & 11 discusses the opening of the kingdom to the Gospel.
There is some truth to the statement, but the Reformation was a process, yet in need of continuance, as many things from Rome that had to be unlearned, and it was those who in conscience toward God dissented from the status quo, RC or Protestant, that were most notable leaders.
And evangelical faith, despite or partly because of its diversity, was largely responsible for the moral reformation and great revivals that worked to make America the a Christian nation in the degree that it was. And rejection of Christian faith and morals is costing it greatly in souls, lives and money.
And here I thought you said you read the Bible! :o)
Actually, "Hell" doesn't exist just yet. If you remember after the Eden fiasco, God cursed the Devil and said he would crawl on his belly and eat the dust of the Earth. Gen. 3:14
In Luke 10:19, Jesus said Satan, as lightning fell from heaven. We know this goes back to when he first rebelled against God and led 1/3 of the angels with him. So he was cast onto the Earth. Rev. 12:9 also reiterates this.
In Job 1:7, Satan is said to be going to and fro on the Earth and walking up and down it. We know from many other Scriptures that Satan and his demons (fallen angels) are present in a spiritual realm on Earth and tempt people and sometimes, possess them. Christians are warned to be wary of his wiles.
In Jude 1:6, there are fallen angels who did not "keep their first estate" and they are in everlasting chains under darkness reserved until the great judgment.
Then after the tribulation and when Jesus rules for 1000 years on Earth, Satan is "bound" (Rev. 20:2) someplace, probably the same place the ones who are bound in chains are (Hades/Sheol). The "Beast" and the "False Prophet" have been cast into what sounds like Hell and it is at that time that I believe the actual final Hell is actually created. At the end of the millenial reign, Satan is "loosed" and he tries to start the war all over again (Rev. 20:7). This time, he doesn't get far, Rev. 20:10 says he is finally cast into Hell. His demised is spoken about:
When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earthGog and Magogand to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of Gods people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Careful there, you just might be an Anti-Semantic!
Where does he say he is God?
You are quoting one man’s opinion. And by your comments, you do not appear to have read the article you’re referencing since you’ve used the terms in the article incorrectly.
And heresy is not a death sentence, Cronos, unless you’re a Protestant at the hands of the RCC which burned people at the stake for what it wrongly determined to be a transgression.
No Protestant damns to hell any other Christian. Even those who might spout heresy (like some Roman Catholics on this forum who doubt the inspiration of Scripture) may be brought to the truth, if God so wills.
Do you believe Roman Catholicism is Christianity?
I dot't know, you'll have to negotiate with Kolo on that one. :)
We in the Catholic Church have as rule 101 that you gotta believe that Jesus Christ is God.
perhaps some may think that this is too strict a rule and they leave the Church, but we won't bend that rule: to be Catholic you must beleive Jesus = God, otherwise, bye-bye and thank you for leaving