The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[Cronos]

Hardly, how clear can Augustine get when he says

"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).

Augustine AGAINST Calvinist's false belief that one cannot lose one's salvation: it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable

Augustine AGAINST limited atonement also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If someone who has been "saved" commits a murder and doesn't repent, will he lose his salvation? Yes or no.

Do you think these are hard questions?

If a man commits murder and never repents, he wasn't saved in the first place.

[Cronos]

Here's where you got a Calvinist poster saying that ..

Woe to the scholars who add, change, remove words to the already perfect Word of God. No translation will surpass 400 years of better accuracy that that of the Living Word of God in the King James Bible. .. The NIV (No Intelligence Version) is just one example of a corrupt translation with over 125,000 or more WORDS OF GOD changes: it is the most vile and corrupt translation. It deserves God's wroth, wrath, and righteous judgment for destroying a perfectly translated King James Holy Bible. And they will meet God when they die and are before God, He shall correctly reveal His perfect Living Word: but in judgment on those who 'dare' to change HIS WORD: woe to them... woe...woe...

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Augustine wrote conflicting statements on whether or not a man could lose his salvation.

Regardless, Augustine was just a man. Where he was in alignment with Scripture, he was correct. Where he wasn’t, he wasn’t.

Read his “Predestination of the Saints” and see how much you agree with it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Why do you say Bibletruth is a Calvinist?

Regardless, if you had any actual understanding of this topic, you’d know most KJV-only Christians are NOT Calvinists.

Thankfully, people can choose to read whatever translation they want. If the Holy Spirit has determined to reach that person, He’ll reach him by the word of God regardless of the translation.

FWIW, I tend to agree with Bibletruth on much of what he wrote. I don’t like the NIV, and prefer the KJV, the NKJV and the ESV. In that order.

[Cronos]

If a man commits murder and never repents, he wasn't saved in the first place

This is what the OP beleives: that man can never lose his salvation, no matter what he does, so when they read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 the OPC believes that if anyone commits any such sin, there is no repentence for the followers of Calvin

Their idea of god will not take repentence, penance, so the followers of Calvin will say that the person never was Christian at all as shown in Dr. E's post above.

the OPC twists the words of scripture by saying that

First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really does

Voilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their 14-page excerpted bible to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"

This so emphatically denies scripture which refutes this -- to give one example, Ezekiel 33

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

How clear does God have to get?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You continue to misstate what Christians, Protestants, Presbyterians and the OPC believe.

A true child of God whose name has been written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world cannot lose his salvation, and will, at a time of God’s choosing, know he has been saved by Christ alone, and therefore he will be brought to repentance, obedience and faith.

And the test of that person’s salvation is in his perseverance. If he perseveres to the end, he was correct to believe he was saved. The fruit of the Holy Spirit bore witness to Christ within him, and Christ never left him alone to slip away. He made sure to bring him home.

If a person says he’s a Christian, but the Spirit is not in him, and he falters, never to return to faith, then that person was never saved in the first place.

Cronos, do you believe that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it to the end?

[Cronos]

Regardless, Augustine was just a man

Nice, as you can't argue with

"[N]othing could have been devised more likely to instruct and benefit the pious reader of sacred Scripture than that, besides describing praiseworthy characters as examples, and blameworthy characters as warnings, it should also narrate cases where good men have gone back and fallen into evil, whether they are restored to the right path or continue irreclaimable; and also where bad men have changed, and have attained to goodness, whether they persevere in it or relapse into evil; in order that the righteous may be not lifted up in the pride of security, nor the wicked hardened in despair of cure" (Against Faustus 22:96 [A.D. 400]).

And this is perfectly in line with scripture -- read this from Ez 33

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’
13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.
14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right—
15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.
16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

[Cronos]

I don’t like the NIV, and prefer the KJV, the NKJV and the ESV. In that order.

So, you, Dr E, agree with the statement that

Woe to the scholars who add, change, remove words to the already perfect Word of God. No translation will surpass 400 years of better accuracy that that of the Living Word of God in the King James Bible. .. The NIV (No Intelligence Version) is just one example of a corrupt translation with over 125,000 or more WORDS OF GOD changes: it is the most vile and corrupt translation. It deserves God's wroth, wrath, and righteous judgment for destroying a perfectly translated King James Holy Bible. And they will meet God when they die and are before God, He shall correctly reveal His perfect Living Word: but in judgment on those who 'dare' to change HIS WORD: woe to them... woe...woe...

?

[Cronos]

Dr. E If a person says he’s a Christian, but the Spirit is not in him, and he falters, never to return to faith, then that person was never saved in the first place

This is what the OP believes: that man can never lose his salvation, no matter what he does, so when they read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 the OPC believes that if anyone commits any such sin, there is no repentence for the followers of Calvin

Their idea of god will not take repentence, penance, so the followers of Calvin will say that the person never was Christian at all as shown in Dr. E's post above.

the OPC twists the words of scripture by saying that

First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really does

Voilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their 14-page excerpted bible to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"

This so emphatically denies scripture which refutes this -- to give one example, Ezekiel 33

12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

How clear does God have to get?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Perhaps you’re incapable of having a discussion. The evidence is piling up. All you do is repost the same response over and over. A response that, more often than not, was not even written by you.

A waste of time.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I wrote what I wrote. Bibletruth wrote what he wrote.

Can you read?

[Cronos]

Note -- all Protestants do NOT believe in the OPC's Calvinist concept that man cannot lose his salvation. All Protestants do NOT believe in the Calvinist idea of double-predestination.

For example, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists (the latter two whom the OPC say are "damnable heretics" and "following a satanic gospel") do not believe in double-predestination.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Cronos, do you believe that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it to the end?

[caww]

Well I have to think about this post....voluntarily does seem to indicate one chooses....which is how I see free-will. The ability to choose.

[Cronos]

So, Dr. E as an OPCer, do you believe that these OPC doctrines are true?

Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

Arminian thought is shared by Pentecostals and MEthodists among others. Do you think their beliefs are damnable heresy? Do you believe that their preachers are heretics?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

For example, (some) Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists do not believe in double-predestination.

Fixed it for you.

[Cronos]

Can you read, Dr. E?

So, do you, Dr E, agree with the statement that

Woe to the scholars who add, change, remove words to the already perfect Word of God. No translation will surpass 400 years of better accuracy that that of the Living Word of God in the King James Bible. .. The NIV (No Intelligence Version) is just one example of a corrupt translation with over 125,000 or more WORDS OF GOD changes: it is the most vile and corrupt translation. It deserves God's wroth, wrath, and righteous judgment for destroying a perfectly translated King James Holy Bible. And they will meet God when they die and are before God, He shall correctly reveal His perfect Living Word: but in judgment on those who 'dare' to change HIS WORD: woe to them... woe...woe...

?

[Cronos]

Lutherans, Pentecostals, Methodists do not believe in double-predestination.

let's ask Quix -- do pentecostals believe in double-predestination? i.e. that God pre-damns people to hell?

And, for Lutherans, I refer to the LCMS website that clearly states The LCMS does not believe that Scripture teaches a predestination to damnation: God desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:3-4)

Lutherans and Methodists as part of their beliefs do NOT believe in double-predestination.

[Cronos]

The evidence is clear:

ezekiel 33:13 "If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done" --> This flatly denies preservation and emphasises that one can fall away from salvation

Ezekiel 33:14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live."

This clearly proves that double-predestination is biblically unsound.