The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Cronos]

To explain to you further what I'm saying

Note that Deuteronomy 6:4 says "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! " --> this should tell one that there is only ONE God, not multiple gods.

And yet, Colossians 2:9 says For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form --> the "Him" is Jesus Christ, so this is saying that the fullness of God dwells in Jesus Christ

One should remember -- Jesus is not a created being, not some kind of super-angel, not just a prophet, but more, Jesus Christ IS God.

[metmom]

Provide the post or admit this is just another one of your fabrications.

Shall I get out the popcorn?

[Cronos]

Jesus Christ IS God.

This basic rule of Christianity, this basic, utterly rule 101 of the Catholic Church is one that one MUST believe. Those who do not believe this have left the Church and floundered along like fish away from the water of life that is Christ.

Many of those left in the 1960s and 70s and now see their fellow flopping fish dying for lack of Christ-oxygen.

It's so sad to see these folks denying Christ's divinity. It's sad, yet it's better for the Church that these folks who deny Christ is God to be out of the Church.

[Cronos]

Talking about scripture -- here's some more proof for you to read. This is scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is GOd

• [B]y him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
• All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
• Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
• Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5 --> and only God can forgive sins
• And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
• Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
• And the clincher: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

[Cronos]

Actually, it would be good to get out the Bible and dust it. I’ve given you quotes from the Bible that prove that Jesus Christ is God. I don’t see how anyone can read these without realising that Jesus Christ IS God.

[metmom]

Another interesting chart. Did you design this one yourself as well?

[Cronos]

Hi Mark, did you know that the founder of the Adventists believed that Jesus Christ was just “Michael the Archangel” (Desire of Ages pp. 99, 379; Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1, p. 158; Prophets & Kings p. 572)?

[Cronos]

Designing is hardly a case for simple html

Here it is again for you

OrthodoPresbyterianC doctrine

Catholic doctrine

It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost. The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53    Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church

[metmom]

You don’t say.....

[Gamecock]

Shocking, isn’t it?

[Hacksaw]

Leave the thread.

Aren't you being a bit thin-skinned?

[Cronos]

From the catechism

The Good News: God has sent his Son

422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'¹ This is 'the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God':² God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own 'beloved Son'.³

423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He 'came from God',⁴ 'descended from heaven',⁵ and 'came in the flesh'.⁶ For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . and from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'

434 Jesus' Resurrection glorifies the name of the Saviour God, for from that time on it is the name of Jesus that fully manifests the supreme power of the "name which is above every name".²⁷ The evil spirits fear his name; in his name his disciples perform miracles, for the Father grants all they ask in this name.²⁸

435 The name of Jesus is at the heart of Christian prayer. All liturgical prayers conclude with the words "through our Lord Jesus Christ". the Hail Mary reaches its high point in the words "blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus." the Eastern prayer of the heart, the Jesus Prayer, says: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner." Many Christians, such as St. Joan of Arc, have died with the one word "Jesus" on their lips.

[Cronos]

And, if we contrast the the catechism with what the OPC says, it is quite stark

OrthodoPresbyterianC doctrine

Catholic doctrine

It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement. In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today. This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost. The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53    Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church

[metmom]

Who would have thought?

[Gamecock]

This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics.

\

[Quix]

Gets annoying when it’s done with MY words. LOL.

[MarkBsnr]

One of the problems with this statement is that the Tradition existed long before the NT Scriptures were written and centuries before they were chosen. And that Tradition continues to this day. The Icons were created to remind the illiterate supermajority of the day of aspects of the Faith. They predated NT Scripture as well.

Aside from the fact that everyone on this forum knows how totally wrong that statement is,

Only the unlettered ones.

can you provide us with exactly what traditions it is that were passed down from the apostles and how we know that they're genuine and the right ones.

Sure. They're in the Catechism. That is found on Vatican.va.

What are your sources to verify and validate the traditions you claim were passed on from the apostles (allegedly) before Scripture was was written?

You see, that is what separates Catholics from failed Catholics. Catholics believe in the Faith handed down from Jesus Christ through His Apostles. It is all about Christ. Failed Catholics believe whatever it is that they happen to believe at the moment. They call it "knowledge" and it is all about them.

[MarkBsnr]

Mark...it gets confusing when you don’t distinguish if you are speaking of the Catholic church...rather you refer to “church” in such a way that it could mean any church...including false churches.

I attempt to distinguish by the use of capitalization. I may occasionally fail, for which I apologize including in advance.

You are right saying that there is a difference in how vocabulary is used among the various churches, and why I’m asking that you define the catholic church when you are referencing church and or the body of believers as a whole, which is the church.

The Catholic Church comprises all those who hold the Faith. The Church believes that Trinitarian Protestant baptism is valid, which puts them in the Church's eyes on the right track; however, the Church also considers those who do not hold the full Faith as being part of ecclesial communities, not truly the Church, so therefore, not fully Catholic.

[Cronos]

This is what the Presbyterians think of Pentecostals:

Gamecock:
"This goes to what the Reformers taught; that is the "enthusiasts" or what we call today Pentecostals, are really no different from the Roman Catholics."

To quix's cc group -- apologies for pinging you, but I thought you might be interested in knowing what a member of the PCA/OPC, i.e. our Calvinist friend, thinks. This is also what the Presbyterian groups (OPC and PCA) think of you as a whole -- they consider your teachings to be "damnable heresy".

[Cronos]

In case you missed it, here is what the Presbyterians say about Pentecostalism

from the OrthodoPresbyterianC website Q&A site

It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.

In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation.

Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.

The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.

This states clearly that the OPC wishes to believe that the sending of the Holy Spirit is UNREPEATABLE