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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

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To: Quix
Thank you for your encouragements, dear brother in Christ!
2,201 posted on 01/30/2011 9:58:04 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: spirited irish
Excellent insight. Thank you!
2,202 posted on 01/30/2011 9:59:02 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MarkBsnr
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

We Christians do follow the Good Shepherd and being sheep, we are small minded and easily distracted - hence, the rest of my post.

2,203 posted on 01/30/2011 10:04:19 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: daniel1212
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear daniel1212!
2,204 posted on 01/30/2011 10:05:55 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos

Even amongst Calvinists, double-predestination is not always an accepted doctrine. IMHO, it was presumed and read into Scripture by Beza in the years immediately after the death of Calvin. IMHO, it isn’t Scriptural.


2,205 posted on 01/30/2011 10:17:31 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: kosta50
My question is still the same: can my religious opinion(s) give someone faith or cause him to loose it?

If you put your foot out in front of someone running by, did you cause them to fall?

Many people slip or trip without a foot in the way; many recover from someone putting a foot in front of them; some faceplant immediately.

But that still doesn't let *you* off the hook.

Cheers!

2,206 posted on 01/30/2011 10:44:52 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Religion Moderator; Cronos; MarkBsnr
You may have MarkBsnr mixed up with Cronos. MarkBsnr has not had any unattributed posts pulled.

I didn't attribute the offending post to Mark.

Cronos made the exorcism comment to me (which was later pulled) and Mark responded to my disgust with that post that I was some kind of hall monitor who has a problem with Latin.

2,207 posted on 01/30/2011 11:12:26 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Exorcism? hmm... well, it does make sense in case of cases of possesion.


2,208 posted on 01/30/2011 11:26:29 PM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: Quix

Ok, I had never heard of http://www.waltermartin.com/ until now. Thank you for the reference. For me, that remains the unsurmountable point namely the God we believe in does not pre-damn people to hell.


2,209 posted on 01/30/2011 11:31:25 PM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: editor-surveyor; Dr. Eckleburg
latin -- you mean like The Institutes in Latin?
2,210 posted on 01/30/2011 11:32:58 PM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: caww
So someones wrong...they cannot all be right.....

They can all be right and all be wrong. If God is so incomprehensible, then no man will have it exactly right, but will have bits and pieces right. On the other hand, there may be no God, in which case they are all wrong.

Muhammad is dead....Joseph Smith is dead....etc. etc. We have a risen savior. ..... All which He said He would do He did....all which He says He is HE is.....and all which He says He will do you can, with certainty, know that He will do in the future

Their God is not dead. Unlike Jesus, their Mohammad, Moses, Joseph Smith, Buddha, etc were not gods, so they are dead.

Some religions are just naturally nicer, just like some people. They are more inclusive and less radical. Islam is a rabid and extreme, opressive religion, unlike just about any other one these days, but Judaim or Cristianity were not much better in the past.

We owe much of our tolerance and "niceness" to the Age of Reason and the humanist freethinkers of the later 17th, and the 18th centuries.

When you say to "Christ is within us" that sounds wonderful but it is not obvious or compelling. Other people are willing to die for their faith. Many a Christian used the martyrdom of early Christians as proof that their faith is true. So who are you to tell others theirs is not true if they are dying for it?

2,211 posted on 01/30/2011 11:44:58 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos

Your post was pulled by the Moderator.

Learn from it.


2,212 posted on 01/30/2011 11:47:28 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr

By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?


2,213 posted on 01/30/2011 11:47:54 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: grey_whiskers
If it is God's will for someone to lose or gain faith, my opinions cannot thwart his will; otherwise God's will is for naught, and men save themselves because they “choose” to believe. Take your pick.
2,214 posted on 01/30/2011 11:49:02 PM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Cronos; editor-surveyor

Perhaps Cronos is unaware that employing Latin in the 16th century differs greatly from using Latin in 2011.


2,215 posted on 01/30/2011 11:50:53 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; ..

He’s great enough at apologetics . . . that the obstreperous one might even return to the faith from listening to his audio files.


2,216 posted on 01/30/2011 11:53:02 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: count-your-change
By what teaching, by what example or principle of Jesus or his apostles are Christians authorized to use threats of death or harm against those who did not agree with them?

How is it anyone’s “duty” to persecute the Waldenses or any other group in Christ’s name?

Amen!

"The Holy Inquisition in its full vigor is something modernity sorely lacks" -- 328 posted on 08/01/2008 4:59:56 PM PDT by annalex

2,217 posted on 01/30/2011 11:55:46 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: caww; kosta50
However, in all fairness, neither Mo nor Joe (hmm... they could be a comedy team, Moe-Joe!)claimed to be God.

However, to take Kostka's line -- if someone does not acknowledge the Bible as true, then one cannot quote scripture to prove Christ is God, because that person (Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist say) would say "I don't acknowledge your scripture"

BUT -- both Islam and Mormonism claim that the Bible is one of their Holy Texts and is true (but, according to them distorted). This is an error on their part rather than claiming to be a completely fresh religion.

If one takes it coldly, logically, and first acknowledges the OT as true, then one reads and finds proof in the OT for a Christ, a Messiah. One can find statements in the OT that prove to us Christians that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah (of course, Jews state that He didn't fulfill Eze 37:26-28, Is 43:5-6 -- they also claim He didn't fulfil Is2:4 (world peace) but I would argue that since Christianity the world was definitely more peaceful than in pagan times, all until WWI or that He didn'tfulfill Zec 14:9 -- but you and I would argue contrary on that point as He did spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel)

Anyway, I digress -- The Moslems and Mormons both say "Oh, the Bible is true but mistranslated/misunderstood/distorted. "

And this brings it out of the belief realm to historical, factual. And factually, checking even non-Christians like the Essenes we see tha the basic gospels and epistles are the same as they were first written. Ok, the canon of what is accepted or not did fluctuate, but not in the distorted way they claim.

Furthermore, in the Koran, they make a number of gaffes: And it's the same way in quite Mormonism claims that polytheism was practised by Early Christians and/or by Jews -- quite historically and factually wrong.

Saying "it's down to an encounter with Christ" is good, but that's the same what every religion would point out or say in different ways. Christianity holds up to facts far better than the branches of Islam/Bahai'ism or Mormonism. Against pure Buddhism (not Mahayana but Hinayana) and Arya Samaj it still holds logically true. I would argue that Zoroastrianism is one that holds up in comparison to Christianity, but the older variants not the ones since 50 BC.
2,218 posted on 01/30/2011 11:56:28 PM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: caww
Elaborating further, a religion that comes 640 years later cannot put words in the mouth of someone 640 years later when there has been no indication/information in the intervening 640 years that the person ever SAID it.

For instance, the Koran says that Jesus said the following
"Thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' That was Jesus, son of Mary. This is a statement of the truth concerning which they entertain doubt."—Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35
This seems to be something taken out of the Gospel of Thomas, but it's different words, sentences etc. -- there was no statement like this ever referred to in the 640 years before Mo!!

Then there is the other major distortion in the Crucifixation
Qur'an 4:155-159 Surah An-Nisaa (The Women) (They have incurred divine displeasure): in that they broke their Covenant: that they rejected the Signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; we need no more)"; nay Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy and little is it they believe. That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ (Maseeh) Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.
It's illogical!!!
2,219 posted on 01/31/2011 12:05:13 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

According to John 16:1-4 such actions were used against Christ’s followers not by them.


2,220 posted on 01/31/2011 12:05:19 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Cvengr

yes, double-predestination is not scriptural. However, this is accepted teaching in the OPC


2,221 posted on 01/31/2011 12:10:28 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Jeckle)
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To: count-your-change
According to John 16:1-4 such actions were used against Christ’s followers not by them.

Amen. Great Scripture...

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." -- John 16:2-3


2,222 posted on 01/31/2011 12:11:35 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Step back Dr. Eck — now the dictionary term for exorcism is to expel or attempt to expel (one or more evil spirits) from (a person or place believed to be possessed or haunted)


2,223 posted on 01/31/2011 12:14:03 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And note, translation for you
Credo in unum Deum Patrem omnipotentem, factorem cœli et terra, visibilium omnium et invisibilium; et in unum Dominum Iesum Christum, Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia sæcula; Deum de Deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero; genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri, per quem omnia facta sunt: qui propter nos homines et propter nostram salutem descendit de cœlis, et incarnatas est de Spiritu Sancto ex Maria virgine, et homo factus est: crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato, passus, et sepultus est: et resurrexit tertia die secundum Scripturas, et ascendit in cœlum, sedet ad dexteram Patris, et iterum venturus est cum gloria iudicare vivos et mortuos; cuius regni non erit finis: et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem, qui ex Patre procedit; qui cum Patre et Filio simul adoratur et conglorificatur; qui locutus est per prophetas: et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam ecclesiam. Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum: et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum et vitam venturi sæculi. Amen. I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages; God of God, light of light, true God of true God; begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father, by whom all things were made: who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from the heavens, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man: crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, he suffered and was buried; and he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; and he ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of the Father; and again he will come with glory to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there shall be no end: and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and the giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father; who with the Father and the Son together is adored and glorified; who spoke by the prophets: and one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

2,224 posted on 01/31/2011 12:16:25 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: kosta50; grey_whiskers

We’re not to make ourselves into stumblingblocks for “an occasion to fall in his brother’s way” which might frustrate or weary a person seeking to know God.


2,225 posted on 01/31/2011 12:18:31 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos

Thanks for the English. You can keep the Latin.


2,226 posted on 01/31/2011 12:19:10 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos

Your post was pulled; not mine.

Learn from it.


2,227 posted on 01/31/2011 12:19:46 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Why does the OPC say this about the Armianians?
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

2,228 posted on 01/31/2011 12:21:16 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Cronos

Whatever the OPC says about Arminians is nothing compared to the RCC praying to “a co-redeemer” and following “another Christ.”

Those kinds of errors will only lead men away from God and toward the darkness.


2,229 posted on 01/31/2011 12:24:55 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos

And as you’ve explained to us, it’s morning wherever you are and it’s time for your usual trashing of the OPC/PCA/whatever Protestant group google leads you to.

Enjoy your playtime. The rest of us are ignoring it.


2,230 posted on 01/31/2011 12:27:05 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Yes, unlike others who don’t believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to save, we Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit can be called upon to send away unclean spirits. All one has to do is call on the name of Jesus Christ and firmly tell Satan to go away, the Holy Spirit does the rest. All praise and glory to God.


2,231 posted on 01/31/2011 12:30:30 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So, as an OPCer, do you believe that
Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

2,232 posted on 01/31/2011 12:31:41 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Gamecock

Thou shall not covet and thous shall not murder was something the freely chose to IGNORE.


2,233 posted on 01/31/2011 12:34:03 AM PST by Lera
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To: kosta50
"Christ is within us" that sounds wonderful but it is not obvious or compelling.

It wouldn't be to those who cannot relate. But it is nonetheless the difference between Christianity and all other religions, and since Christ abides in us it is quite compelling and obvious to those who know this.

If God is so incomprehensible...

He's actually not incomprehensible to those who know Him.

So who are you to tell others theirs is not true if they are dying for it?

People can and do give thier life for many things...not just religious reasons. So this certainly isn't a consideration for how I might view another religion as true or false.

Some religions are just naturally nicer

There are many people who are 'nice' without any religious affiliation. So this wouldn't affect how I might guage what is truth.

Their God is not dead.

Well in that regard one must then determine if or not the God they claim is the same God of Christianity.

2,234 posted on 01/31/2011 12:44:07 AM PST by caww
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear
Also, the OPC seems to attack those who believe in the Rapture too
Question: Do you believe the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture? Will the believers in Christ be taken out of this world while the unbelievers are "left behind" to endure the final tribulations before the last day of this world? And will those unbelievers "left behind" have a last chance to repent?
==============================================

Answer:

The answer is "No" to all questions...

2,235 posted on 01/31/2011 12:44:43 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: kosta50

It is a pretentious and potentially dangerous mindset, in my opinion, to assume to be God’s tool, doing supposedly God’s will.


Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

It’s not dangerous at all if you believe this.
There is only one God and if you love him and you love your neighbor as yourself you are not going to run around murdering others thinking you are doing his will.


2,236 posted on 01/31/2011 12:48:40 AM PST by Lera
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alamo-Girl; Quix; CynicalBear
Some more OPC attacks on those who believe in the Rapture too
I think that it is wrong to hold (with the Premillennialists) that, from chapter 4:1 on, Revelation is all future.

2,237 posted on 01/31/2011 12:50:07 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Some more OPC attacks. This is from the OPC Q&A site
It will be noted that the Confession sharply contradicts the view popularized today by the neo-Pentecostal movement.

In essence this view would have us believe that we can have the same charismatic gifts that we read about in the age of the Apostles - such as prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healing - today.

This is a very serious error. In essence it is a result of a failure to grasp the Biblical teaching concerning the history of salvation. ....

Never again will there be an outpouring of the Holy Spirit such as took place on the day of Pentecost.

The sending of the Holy Spirit is just as much an unrepeatable event as the birth of Christ was.
This states clearly that the OPC wishes to believe that the sending of the Holy Spirit is UNREPEATABLE
2,238 posted on 01/31/2011 12:57:19 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
And some more beauties of the OPC fate
Salvation of Infants Who Die

The Confession entertains the idea that at least some infants who die in infancy and some others "who are incapable of being outwardly called" are among the elect.

However, the Confession does not say that all such infants, etc., are saved.
The OPC believes that God pre-damns infants to eternal hell. This isn't the Christian God of Love.
2,239 posted on 01/31/2011 1:00:56 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Cronos; caww
If one takes it coldly, logically, and first acknowledges the OT as true, then one reads and finds proof in the OT for a Christ, a Messiah. One can find statements in the OT that prove to us Christians that Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah (of course, Jews state that He didn't fulfill...

There are many reasons why Jews reject Jesus as the messiah. For one, the Jewish messiah is no God. The title "son of God" is a royal title and the title given to angels, as well as to Adam (for obvious but literal reasons). Secondly, Jewish scriptures used by the Christians, especially those crucial to Christianity, contain numerous changes that support Christian doctrinal claims, but are not found in the Tanakh (Hebrew sciprutres).

The Christian Old Testament, even the one use by the Protestants, is a mixture of Hebrew and Septuagint (Greek OT translation) verses, even though Protestants claim their OT is the same as the Tanakh.

Subtle changes (mistranslations?) such as in Isaiah 53:5,8 change the whole meaning of verses. Thus, in verse 5, Christian translators say "he was wounded for our transgressions" and Tanakh says "from our transgressions."

Verse 8 says "for the transgression of my people was he stricken" in the Christian versions, whereas the Tanakh reads "for the sins of my people were they stricken." The Jewish sages say "mi" (they) not "lih" (he) [the Hebrew letter m and l don't look alike)

More importantly, Christianity literally turned some OT stories upside down. For example the Passover Lamb. Lambs were considered sacred animals in ancient Egypt. Killing the Passover lamb and smearing its blood on the Israelite homes was a way if telling the Egyptians that their god was nothign but a stinky animal, and wa sno god of any consequence. The lamb was clearly not killed to "atone" for any iniquities, as the Christians teach.

Likewise, the shedding of the blood for atonement applied only for unintentional sins. In Judaism the sins of willful commission could not be atoned by animal sacrifice, but only through repentance. Obviously the Christians "corrected" that too!

Besides, the sacrificial animal had to be killed on the altar, and its blood sprinkled. Crucifixion was no altar sacrifice and Jesus bleeding all over the place from Roman torture and being nailed to the cross was hardly ritual "sprinkling."

So, obviously the "correct" interpretation of the OT depends on a lot of things, liturgical, theological, translational, doctrinal, etc. Usually the Jewish rejection of Christanity is assumed to be their "blindness" whereas reading a little deeper reveals that the blindness can be relative, and sometimes even intentional.

2,240 posted on 01/31/2011 1:10:05 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: MarkBsnr
The Waldensians were heretics, regardless of the romance that you would bring to their story. The Dominicans were charged with dealing with the Waldensians.

Can you explain to me what part of Thou shalt no murder is it that the Dominicans did not understand ?


The Jesuits were charged with dealing with the Reformers. We see which order fulfilled their duty.

Seems to me those Jesuits dealt with them pretty harshly when they educated Hitler and he put many of those Reformer preachers to death.Guess there were some bad side effects for them though since the monster they raised ended up killing a lot of Catholics too. I guess they don't mind sacrificing some of their own as long as they can MURDER who they think are heretics as they certainly had lots of Protestants/Orthodox/Jews exterminated.

Lets just look at some of the other MONSTERS these Jesuits have schooled ...

.... Joseph Goebbels

.... Fidel Castro

.... Joseph Stalin

seems to me they have been busy creating plenty of destruction alrigt

2,241 posted on 01/31/2011 1:15:21 AM PST by Lera
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To: Lera
The Golden Rule is a universal standard of conduct which says the same thing.

However, people who think they are providentially "sent" to change the world or do something "in the name of God" have done many good things but also quite a bit of damage in the past.

2,242 posted on 01/31/2011 1:18:01 AM PST by kosta50 ("Spirit of Spirit....give me over to immortal birth so that I may be born again" -- pagan prayer)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The followers of Machen, the OPC, disregard scripture where it calls men to repent, have faith, convert, and persevere. Instead they insist on some kind of non-scriptural preservation which is not only non-scriptural but also disagrees with the beliefs of their hero, St. Augustine who believed in perseverance of the saints, not preservation. Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints,"

the OPC's theory that man can never lose his salvation, no matter what he does, so when they read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 the OPC believes that if anyone commits any such sin, there is no repentence for the followers of Calvin. Their deity will not take repentence, so the followers of Calvin will say that the person never was Christian at all!

To answer, they twist their weasel-words as
First between true and false conversion. The Bible recognizes that not everyone who says he believes in Christ really does
Voilą! (by the way, that means "see there" in French) -- the followers of Calvin-Machen use their rubber dictionaries to say "Oh, they never were Christian in the first place!"
2,243 posted on 01/31/2011 1:26:37 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: kosta50

However, people who think they are providentially “sent” to change the world or do something “in the name of God” have done many good things but also quite a bit of damage in the past.


I agree . Plenty of atrocities in history have been committed in his name by those who don’t know him.
Plenty by those who call themselves Christians to who DON’T know Christ.


2,244 posted on 01/31/2011 1:32:22 AM PST by Lera
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To: metmom
Cronos: And remember — Jesus Christ IS God. To deny Jesus is God automatically means that one is not a Christian. Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Orthodox etc agree that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and God, you are not Christian

Metmom: So you keep saying

yes, I hope to convince you of that.
2,245 posted on 01/31/2011 1:41:15 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

the OPC with it’s double-predestination seems to willingly cause it’s cultists to plumb the depths of despair — since they do not believe in repentence, then anyone who fails then is told by the OPC that they were never Christian.


2,246 posted on 01/31/2011 1:50:35 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; xzins; caww; kosta50; boatbums
Dawkins does not have the depth of Jainism.

Jainism's beliefs are at least 2900 years old and are born out of the Gangetic Indo-European beliefs in reincarnation, the concept of maya and rejection of Aryanic deities like Indra/Thor and Varuna/Dyaus Pita/Zeus/Jupiter.

By 900 BC, the Aryans had been in northern India, in the Gangetic plains for 800+ years and had been moving towards demoting their ARyanic gods like Indra (who in the Rig Veda (c. 1700 BC) is mentioned quite often as the War/Storm God and get high praise and yagnas (sacrifices etc.) of worship, yet in modern-day Hinduism is practically ignored along with the rest of the pantheon bar the Hindu trinity (Shiva-Vishnu-Brahma).

Shiva seems to be more a Dravidian god (if one connects the pictures of the ascetic with a cobra protecting his head that are depicted on Harappan coins to Shiva), while Vishnu seems like a convenient way to add in different gods to the pantheon -- functioning in the same way as Osiris did, so both Rama and Krishna are incarnations of Vishnu (and also 8 other incarnations from Narasimha, the half-man, half-lion to the dwarf who could step across worlds) and Brahma is the creator but ignored)

Indra seems to have retained his place until the time of Emperor Asoka (300 BC) who proclaimed Buddhism as the theme religion of his Empire (which stretched over all of what is now Afghanistan, Eastern Iran, TAjikistan, eastern Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, all of Pakistan, India except what is now southern Tamil nadu, Bangladesh, Nepal) -- this act destroyed Vedic Hinduism and even when Hinduism reclaimed ground under the Nandas (post Christ), it was Brahmanical Hinduism with Manu rated highly and a Hinduism influenced by Mahavira and GAutama Buddha's rejection of the old gods.

This is reflected in the Jatakas and that era writing where there is a story of Indra attempting to disturb Shiva and shiva cursing him to have his body covered with va... (well, woman's private parts) -- and India from that point on becomes an object of ridicule in Hindu religion (he was already ridiculed in Jainism and Buddhism).

Jainism, with it's rejection of Vedic Hinduism also added in the concepts of ahimsa and vegetarianism --> Jains will not eat any meat or eggs or fish or any vegetable that grows under the ground.

The Jain idea of the universe is

They believe that EVERYONE on this diagram except the Siddhis/Adinaths (conquerors of death) i.e. those who live in Siddhasila are subject to death and reincarnation -- the gods may have powers, but they are just another one of those subject to the law of reincarnation.

They believe in endless cycles of time, and cycles within cycles (the hindu ability to generate high numbers is truly amazing -- their cosmology relates to billions of years).

To answer betty's question -- the Jains argue that all are subject to the laws of the universe and that it is illogical to argue for a being that exists out of it. While Maths did originate in the EAst (from the Babylonian concepts of 360 degress of a circle to the Hindu discover of 0, Natural Sciences too had their origins in the Near East - India, with the extensions into Greece (mainland Greece didn't get civilised until the fall of the Minoans on Crete c. 1700 BC IMHO). The Indians concentrated on maths, metallurgy and medicine.

To answer boatbums -- no one is needed to keep score in their theory as what you do influences your internal "aura" or whatever. This is completely alien to the Christian concepts so it is not Pelagianism either as this is not "doing good" but "cleansing your aura". Also, do note that in the Hindu system, at least the modern one, there is a higher god above the trinity called Ishwara (of whom Shiva is supposed to an embodiment of -- I don't quite follow that). Presumably he keeps score. however, Hindus believe that the universe ends when all (including the gods) are absorved into Ishwara and everything ends.

This ties in to their concept of maya (or that the entire universe is an illusion) which is what influenced the Gnostics from the Paulicians to the Cathars.
2,247 posted on 01/31/2011 2:18:40 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: metmom; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; xzins; caww; kosta50; boatbums
One interesting correlationship is between the Aryanic gods from Dyaus Pita (Sky Father) to Jupiter and Zeus and Deus

also the storm god, Indra = Thor.

And, finally the two "families" of gods. In the Indic religions these are Devas and Asuras.

You see initially in the Rig Veda how some of the gods are referred to as Asuras -- like Varuna (god of wind) and Agni (god of fire).

By the time of Buddha, the Asuras were relegated to a lower family of supernatural beings, not to be worshipped but feared (an aside -- one of the now-famous Hindus gods, Ganesha/Ganapati, the elephant-headed god started out around the time of Christ as an asura or a spirit of malevolence like the rogue elephants who destroyed houses, but now he's the most popular Hindu god -- check Ganeshutsav).

Then, Christianity came and highly influenced Hinduism, from the Hindus taking the concept of a Trinity (only completely accepted around 900 AD) to their relegation of Asuras as demons.

In contrast, the opposite happened in the Irani Aryanic group where the Asura got prominence. Now, between Indic and Iranic languages there is a change of the sound S to H (so the people of Sindh (Indus valley) became Hindus) and the Irani gods were the Ahuras, with the Daeves being relegated to household gods, gods of the fireplace. These daeves were the same as the genius fireplace gods in Greek and Roman myths.

Zoroaster, around 1800-1700 BC was the prophet of his religion Zoroastrianism -- he took ONE God, Ahura Mazda and raised him as THE God of light. He consider there to be an equal god of darkness, Aingra Mainyu who represented evil. The Zoroastrian belief is that mankind should fight for Ahura Mazda against Aingra Mainyu. They should do this based on the Zoroastrian motif of "Good thoughts, good words, good deeds". Later sects of Zoroastrianism even went so far as to say that some humans were made by Ahura Mazda (Ormazd in some English poems) and others by Aingra Mainyu hence the idea that Ahura Mazda only loved some. They also had the concept of a Messiah-type figure, angels etc. (though their angels are bulls with the heads of men and wings!). It is fascinating on this Zoroastrian influence on Judaism post the exile.

Anyway, I digress -- the other branches of the Aryan family were the Greek-Romans who reduced it to one family of gods. The Romanic religion was far more primitive than the Hindu/Irani and more primitive than the GReek, hence whole-scale borrowing from the Greeks, who in turn were influenced by Semitic religions of the Canaanites/Pheonicians.

The Nordics/Germanics were probably the most primitive Aryanic religion retaining BOTH families of gods: Aesir and Vanir. No, wait, they would tie for primitiveness of their religion with the Celts.
2,248 posted on 01/31/2011 2:36:21 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: kosta50; caww
Good point about the Jewish messiah not being God. That would have been inconceivable to the Jews and is also the stumbling block for Moslems.

Some other differences between the Tanakh and Septuagint - Is7:14 -- tenses different
Is 9:5, againt tenses.

Why? I don't know.
2,249 posted on 01/31/2011 2:56:26 AM PST by Cronos (Vade Retro Dottore Satana Jeckle)
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To: kosta50
More importantly, Christianity literally turned some OT stories upside down. For example the Passover Lamb. Lambs were considered sacred animals in ancient Egypt. Killing the Passover lamb and smearing its blood on the Israelite homes was a way if telling the Egyptians that their god was nothign but a stinky animal, and wa sno god of any consequence. The lamb was clearly not killed to "atone" for any iniquities, as the Christians teach

Nope....sounds like your religious history/faith has far to go to reach the truth Kosta...and likely will never do so. Remember I did say sometimes it takes time to discern where someones beliefs are at. Yours is pointing in a particular direction.

2,250 posted on 01/31/2011 4:12:46 AM PST by caww
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