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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
You are correct that his earlier books are clearer of their own will they went out; of their own will they fell, and because their fall was foreknown, they were not predestined; they would however be predestined if they were going to return and persevere in holiness; hence, God's predestination is for many the cause of perseverance, for none the cause of falling away from Regarding Tradition

However, even in Perservering Grace, Augustine's theology is not for double-predestination. One sees this in Book II, Chapter 33
To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world; but in this life of man, which is a state of trial upon the earth, Job 7:1 he who seems to stand must take heed lest he fall. 1 Corinthians 10:12 Since (as I have already said before) those who will not persevere are, by the most foreseeing will of God, mingled with those who will persevere, for the reason that we may learn not to mind high things, but to consent to the lowly, and may work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God that works in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13 We therefore will, but God works in us to will also. We therefore work, but God works in us to work also for His good pleasure.

This is profitable for us both to believe and to say—this is pious, this is true, that our confession be lowly and submissive, and that all should be given to God. Thinking, we believe; thinking, we speak; thinking, we do whatever we do; 2 Corinthians 3:5 but, in respect of what concerns the way of piety and the true worship of God, we are not sufficient to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God. For our heart and our thoughts are not in our own power; whence the same Ambrose who says this says also: But who is so blessed as in his heart always to rise upwards? And how can this be done without divine help? Assuredly, by no means. Finally, he says, the same Scripture affirms above, 'Blessed is the man whose help is of You; O Lord, ascent is in his heart.' Assuredly, Ambrose was not only enabled to say this by reading in the holy writings, but as of such a man is to be without doubt believed, he felt it also in his own heart.

herefore, as is said in the sacraments of believers, that we should lift up our hearts to the Lord, is God's gift; for which gift they to whom this is said are admonished by the priest after this word to give thanks to our Lord God Himself; and they answer that it is meet and right so to do. For, since our heart is not in our own power, but is lifted up by the divine help, so that it ascends and takes cognizance of those things which are above, Colossians 3:1 where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, and, not those things that are upon the earth, to whom are thanks to be given for so great a gift as this unless to our Lord God who does this—who in so great kindness has chosen us by delivering us from the abyss of this world, and has predestinated us before the foundation of the world?

2,152 posted on 01/30/2011 1:38:30 PM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos; HarleyD; Quix
You are correct that his earlier books are clearer

lol. "Clearer?"

Try "not yet formed." "Less mature." "Incomplete."

The later Augustine learned from not only the mistakes of the church hierarchy which was racing toward gnosticism by following Pelagius, but from his own mistakes.

May we all progress according to the same vector as Augustine.

Post tenebrux lux (From darkness to light.)

2,163 posted on 01/30/2011 2:19:00 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Cronos; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
However, even in Perservering Grace, Augustine's theology is not for double-predestination. One sees this in Book II, Chapter 33...To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world;

You are confusing "double-predestination" with perseverance. These two doctrines are completely separate.

Double predestination is when God purposely chooses the elect and purposely reject others. Predestination is when God purposely chooses the elect. The difference, of course, is that in DP God have purposely sentence people to hell. I happen to fall in the category of the Ps but I think it is splitting hairs. It is a moot point because the fact is that God by de Facto has sentence all of us to hell; and it was done on purpose.

And the arguments against DP and P are spurious because there are numerous times in scripture where God does elect and choose people. Why He chooses one over another we can’t say. For the difference between believers and unbelievers, the angel of death at the time of Moses is an excellent example of where God past someone over and took vengeance on another. So yes, God has ordained and predestined some to greatness and some to other tasks. One may recall the 6,000 prophets who hid in a cave during the time of Ahab and Elijah. They too were called of God, if for no other reason than to hide in a cave.

Does God purposely send people to hell? People are already sentence to hell. You don’t start in a neutral position. And, yes, God did pass judgment that we would go to hell. That’s just the way it is. Scripture teaches that we are all haters of God. If we really loved God we would do the things of God so let's not have any arguments that we really love God. I can only marvel at my own wickedness yet knowing that God loves me.

Is it unfair of God to harden a person's heart who hates Him? No. However it is far more gracious of God to change a person's heart who hates him. And God doesn’t have to do this for everyone in order to be gracious.

Persevering Grace, OTOH, is totally consistent with Augustine's view. I have known too many people who had a wonderful walk with the Lord only to fall away. And there are some who fall away for a season but return. We just don't know what a person truly believe. The Westminster Confession states this very clearly:

People who are truly in the faith can rest in the assurance that God will keep them. People who are "pretending" to love God will fall away. I see nothing out of alignment with Augustine's view.
2,257 posted on 01/31/2011 4:54:00 AM PST by HarleyD
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