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Transubstantiation: From Stumbling Block to Cornerstone
The Catholic Thing ^ | 1/21/11 | Francis J. Beckwith

Posted on 01/21/2011 12:26:40 PM PST by marshmallow

The Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist is a real stumbling block to some Protestants who are seriously considering Catholicism. It was for me too, until I explored the subject, historically and scripturally. What follows is a summary of my deliberations.

Catholicism holds that bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ when they are consecrated by the priest celebrating the Mass. Oftentimes non-Catholics get hung up on the term transubstantiation, the name for the philosophical theory that the Church maintains best accounts for the change at consecration. The Church’s explanation of transubstantiation was influenced by Aristotle’s distinction between substance and accident.

Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), like most philosophers of his time, wanted to account for how things change and yet remain the same. So, for example, a “substance” like an oak tree remains the same while undergoing “accidental” changes. It begins as an acorn and eventually develops roots, a trunk, branches, and leaves. During all these changes, the oak tree remains identical to itself. Its leaves change from green to red and brown, and eventually fall off. But these accidental changes occur while the substance of the tree remains.

On the other hand, if we chopped down the tree and turned into a desk, that would be a substantial change, since the tree would literally cease to be and its parts would be turned into something else, a desk. According to the Church, when the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ, the accidents of the bread and wine do not change, but the substance of each changes. So, it looks, tastes, feels, and smells like bread and wine, but it literally has been changed into the body and blood of Christ. That’s transubstantiation.

There are several reasons why it would be a mistake to dismiss transubstantiation simply because of the influence of Aristotle on its formulation. First, Eastern Churches in communion with the Catholic Church rarely employ this Aristotelian language, and yet the Church considers their celebration of the Eucharist perfectly valid. Second, the Catholic Church maintains that the divine liturgies celebrated in the Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome (commonly called “Eastern Orthodoxy”) are perfectly valid as well, even though the Eastern Orthodox rarely employ the term transubstantiation. Third, the belief that the bread and wine are literally transformed into Christ’s body and blood predates Aristotle’s influence on the Church’s theology by over 1000 years. For it was not until the thirteenth century, and the ascendancy of St. Thomas Aquinas’ thought, that Aristotle’s categories were employed by the Church in its account of the Eucharist. In fact, when the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) employed the language of substantial change, St. Thomas had not even been born!

It was that third point that I found so compelling and convinced me that the Catholic view of the Eucharist was correct. It did not take long for me to see that Eucharistic realism (as I like to call it) had been uncontroversially embraced deep in Christian history. This is why Protestant historian, J. N. D. Kelly, writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood.” I found it in many of the works of the Early Church Fathers, including St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110), St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 151), St. Cyprian of Carthage, (A. D. 251), First Council of Nicaea (A. D. 325), St. Cyril of Jerusalem (A. D. 350), and St. Augustine of Hippo (A. D. 411) . These are, of course, not the only Early Church writings that address the nature of the Eucharist. But they are representative.

This should, however, not surprise us, given what the Bible says about the Lord’s Supper. When Jesus celebrated the Last Supper with his disciples (Mt. 26:17-30; Mk. 14:12-25; Lk. 22:7-23), which we commemorate at Holy Communion, he referred to it as a Passover meal. He called the bread and wine his body and blood. In several places, Jesus is called the Lamb of God (John 1: 29, 36; I Peter 1:19; Rev. 5:12). Remember, when the lamb is killed for Passover, the meal participants ingest the lamb. Consequently, St. Paul’s severe warnings about partaking in Holy Communion unworthily only make sense in light of Eucharistic realism (I Cor. 10:14-22; I Cor. 11:17-34). He writes: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? . . . Whoever, therefore eats and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.” (I Cor. 10:16; 11:27)

In light of all these passages and the fact that Jesus called himself the bread of life (John 6:41-51) and that he said that his followers must “eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood” (John 6:53), the Eucharistic realism of the Early Church, the Eastern Churches (both in and out of communion with Rome), and the pre-Reformation medieval Church (fifth to sixteenth centuries) seems almost unremarkable. So, what first appeared to be a stumbling block was transformed into a cornerstone.

Francis J. Beckwith is Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University. He tells the story of his journey from Catholicism to Protestantism and back again in his book, Return to Rome: Confessions of An Evangelical Catholic. He blogs at Return to Rome.


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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Have you seen this:

Once upon a time, before anything was created, when God in three persons dwelt happily in and of themselves, God the Father said, “Hey, I’ve got a great idea. We’re going to create a universe by and through you, God the Son, and I am, before you create anything at all, going to determine how every single bit of it, from start to finish, from the beginning to the end, from the least quark to the biggest bang, is going to go."

"We will create an entire human race from an original male and female whom I will cause to be tempted and sin and, because of that, subject the rest of the human race to untold millennia of misery and suffering and death, all for my greater glory because it seemed good to me, all the while promising them a means of salvation from that misery I’ve imposed on them as a result of their sin against me that I will have preordained."

"And a really cool thing is that we will tell them that if they listen to what they are told and follow it faithfully, we will hear them and answer them and heal their land but they won’t know that in actuality they won’t be able even to try unless we make a few of them do it and the vast majority we will keep in the bondage of sin and degradation and then hold them responsible for not doing what we created them to be unable to do."

"And the best thing of all, God the Son, is that because I will say that the sin that I will ordain and set into motion, to the very degree and extent that is my good pleasure according to the unfathomable counsel of my will, cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice and since no human will be able or capable or even willing to provide that sacrifice, because I will have made them unable, incapable, and unwilling, YOU are going to have lay aside your glory and the fellowship we enjoy to enter the human race and grow up among those who--but for the few I will have made to act to the contrary--won’t listen because I will have made them unable to hear, who won’t see because I will have blinded them to the truth, and who won’t ask for forgiveness for something they were hopeless to avoid doing because I will have made them incapable of doing so and then have the ever loving crap beaten out of you, scourged to within an inch of your life, before being made to carry the instrument of your torture and death before jeering crowds, because I will have made them do that, to the place where others, because of my decree before the foundations of the earth according to my own good counsel, will drive spikes through your wrists and hoist you up to hang between criminals—and the best part of all, at that moment you are about to die, I’ll turn my back on you!"

"But it will all be okay, right, because in three days, I’ll raise you from the dead so that we can say that this proves you are who we already know you are without ever the necessity of our creating a universe or even a human race to begin with and then declare faith in that as the ostensible means by which we confer saving grace on the humans but without telling them, until John Calvin comes along, that what they think is turning to us in faith to freely receive the gift of forgiveness and salvation is every bit as programmed and inevitable as the fate of the majority of the human race on their way to burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire for refusing to believe that which I will have made them unable to believe since before I will have ever created anything at all, and this all for my praise and glory. How does that sound?”

And does God the Son say, “Wait a second, you’re going to create a universe with a world of conscious beings made in our image, screw them over in the most horrendous ways imaginable, hold them responsible for what you’re going to compel them to do, and then, near the end of the whole shebang, make ME suffer for every sin they ever committed without their ever having had the capacity to decide otherwise and die so that those who don’t even have the capacity to make anything but a faux choice will be “saved”? And that will make the relationship you and I and the Holy Spirit are sharing right now better how?” or does he say, “Hey, that sounds great and we’ll call it the GOOD NEWS!”

23 posted on Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:49:31 AM by aruanan

I thought it might be appropos on this thead. Posted by permission. I think it is a PERFECT explanation of the OPC brand of Creepy Calvinism.

1,251 posted on 01/28/2011 6:10:28 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Clement of Alexandria (150-220): “Christ freely brings...salvation to the whole human race.”

Eusebius (260-340): “It was needful that the Lamb of God should be offered for the other lambs whose nature He assumed, even for the whole human race.”

Athanasius (293-373): “Christ the Son of God, having assumed a body like ours, because we were all exposed to death [which takes in more than the elect], gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father.”

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): “Do not wonder if the whole world was ransomed, for He was not a mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God.”

Gregory of Nazianzen (324-389): “The sacrifice of Christ is an imperishable expiation of the whole world.”

Basil (330-379): “But one thing was found that was equivalent to all men....the holy and precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He poured out for us all.”

Ambrose (340-407): “Christ suffered for all, rose again for all. But if anyone does not believe in Christ, he deprives himself of that general benefit.”
He also said, “Christ came for the salvation of all, and undertook the redemption of all, inasmuch as He brought a remedy by which all might escape, although there are many who...are unwilling to be healed.”

Augustine (354-430): Though Augustine is often cited as supporting limited atonement, there are also clear statements in Augustine’s writings that are supportive of unlimited atonement. For example: “The Redeemer came and gave the price, shed His blood, and bought the world. Do you ask what He bought? See what He gave, and find what He bought. The blood of Christ is the price: what is of so great worth? What, but the whole world? What, but all nations?”
He also stated, “The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sins.”

Cyril of Alexandria (376-444): “The death of one flesh is sufficient for the ransom of the whole human race, for it belonged to the Logos, begotten of God the Father.”

Prosper (a friend and disciple of Augustine who died in 463): “As far as relates to the magnitude and virtue of the price, and to the one cause of the human race, the blood of Christ is the redemption of the whole world: but those who pass through this life without the faith of Christ, and the sacrament of regeneration, do not partake of the redemption.”
He also said, “The Savior is most rightly said to have been crucified for the redemption of the whole world.” He then said, “Although the blood of Christ be the ransom of the whole world, yet they are excluded from its benefit, who, being delighted with their captivity, are unwilling to be redeemed by it.”

the above is from “reasoning from the scriptures minstries”

i am posting to show St Augustine rejected “limited atonement”


1,252 posted on 01/28/2011 6:11:23 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Judith Anne

i didn’t see it, thanks for posting.


1,253 posted on 01/28/2011 6:16:43 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: aruanan; ex 98C MI Dude

Aruanan, I posted your essay at 1251.

Dude, I thought you might find it interesting. Thanks for being a FRiend, BTW.


1,254 posted on 01/28/2011 6:19:12 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Cronos
So, you admit, then, that the early Christians had no “altar”, no special vestments for their presiders, the deacons(not “priest”) serves the bread and wine/water to the brethren, and no mention is made about the bread and wine being transubstantiated into the body and blood of Jesus? Also, Justin Martyr makes no mention of those who participate in the gathering receiving special grace since he said, “he gives thanks that we have been judged worthy of these gifts”, have been - not will be. So do you still insist that the “order of the Eucharistic celebration” has stayed the same until today? In truth, it sounds much more like the Protestant services I have attended.
1,255 posted on 01/28/2011 6:20:46 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

The “god” of Calvin is a demon.


1,256 posted on 01/28/2011 6:21:07 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: Judith Anne

I do find it interesting, Sister. Your FRiend in the Faith.


1,257 posted on 01/28/2011 6:27:51 PM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: boatbums

St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

“First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”

“Dialogue with Trypho”, Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it.”

-”Dialogue with Trypho”, [41: 8-10]

posted from the realprecense.org website.

of course they had altars, go to the roman catacombs. see above what Justin says about the Sacrifice being the Eucharist. Read Malachi 1:11 that he quotes and says is fulfilled by the Eucharist. No Protestant could receive the Eucharist with Justin, because according to him, they would not have been allowed because of their unbelief.


1,258 posted on 01/28/2011 6:33:49 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: boatbums

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us

wanted you to especially note what he says about the “washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth”
many people who knew St John were still alive when he wrote that, puts the whole baptism is just a first act of obedience heresy in it’s proper light.


1,259 posted on 01/28/2011 6:37:30 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: boatbums; Cronos

boatbums - “ no mention is made about the bread and wine being transubstantiated into the body and blood of Jesus”
For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.” Justin Martyr’s response.


1,260 posted on 01/28/2011 6:47:54 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; boatbums; Cronos

Matthew 28 - “teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you”
2 Thessalonians - “stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught”
Justin Martyr - “so also we have been taught”

Jesus commands the Church to teach, Paul teaches, Justin receives the teaching and passes along the teaching.....and so on........til the present day.


1,261 posted on 01/28/2011 7:03:19 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Cronos; metmom
I have no problem believing Metmom needs NO proofs from you concerning the deity of Jesus Christ. Where you got it in your head that she doesn't believe it is beyond me. I have NEVER heard her say he was not God. Where is your proof??? Put up or shut up about your suspicions!
1,262 posted on 01/28/2011 7:21:46 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums; metmom; Cronos

i have no problem stating Jesus is true God and true man, the second person of the Trinity.
cronos would have no problem stating that.
boatbums would have no problem stating that.
who would pass up the chance to proclaim Jesus is God? no Christian i know!


1,263 posted on 01/28/2011 7:28:21 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Cronos; HossB86
Hardly — if you wish to disagree with Jesus words and St. Paul, go ahead and post bilge

You did far more than just post Scripture passages. It is yours and your Church's interpretation of those verses that is in dispute. And there are ample grounds based upon many other Scripture passages to do so.

1,264 posted on 01/28/2011 7:32:17 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums
It is yours and your Church's interpretation of those verses that is in dispute

Do you know what YOPIOS is? It stands for, "Your Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture." Sort of what Luther meant when he wrote that every milkmaid would now be her own pope. Go for it!

1,265 posted on 01/28/2011 7:39:40 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: presently no screen name
It's not so strange why Christ's death is the daily focus of the counterfeit church; so much so, that it makes it's own doctrine - when The Power is in HIS RESURRECTION where death, hell and the grave (satan) were defeated.

Amen.

I Corinthians 15:14-19

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all others.

1,266 posted on 01/28/2011 7:49:03 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: presently no screen name

if the Catholic Church is the “counterfeit church”, please tell me where the “true” Church was from 95ad til 1517? you do believe the gates of hell would not prevail against it, right? if so, we should be able to find it throughout time, correct?


1,267 posted on 01/28/2011 7:56:21 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; aruanan

Augustine’s correct understanding of God’s predestination of all things?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH

Read this:

Once upon a time, before anything was created, when God in three persons dwelt happily in and of themselves, God the Father said, “Hey, I’ve got a great idea. We’re going to create a universe by and through you, God the Son, and I am, before you create anything at all, going to determine how every single bit of it, from start to finish, from the beginning to the end, from the least quark to the biggest bang, is going to go.”

“We will create an entire human race from an original male and female whom I will cause to be tempted and sin and, because of that, subject the rest of the human race to untold millennia of misery and suffering and death, all for my greater glory because it seemed good to me, all the while promising them a means of salvation from that misery I’ve imposed on them as a result of their sin against me that I will have preordained.”

“And a really cool thing is that we will tell them that if they listen to what they are told and follow it faithfully, we will hear them and answer them and heal their land but they won’t know that in actuality they won’t be able even to try unless we make a few of them do it and the vast majority we will keep in the bondage of sin and degradation and then hold them responsible for not doing what we created them to be unable to do.”

“And the best thing of all, God the Son, is that because I will say that the sin that I will ordain and set into motion, to the very degree and extent that is my good pleasure according to the unfathomable counsel of my will, cannot be forgiven without a sacrifice and since no human will be able or capable or even willing to provide that sacrifice, because I will have made them unable, incapable, and unwilling, YOU are going to have lay aside your glory and the fellowship we enjoy to enter the human race and grow up among those who—but for the few I will have made to act to the contrary—won’t listen because I will have made them unable to hear, who won’t see because I will have blinded them to the truth, and who won’t ask for forgiveness for something they were hopeless to avoid doing because I will have made them incapable of doing so and then have the ever loving crap beaten out of you, scourged to within an inch of your life, before being made to carry the instrument of your torture and death before jeering crowds, because I will have made them do that, to the place where others, because of my decree before the foundations of the earth according to my own good counsel, will drive spikes through your wrists and hoist you up to hang between criminals—and the best part of all, at that moment you are about to die, I’ll turn my back on you!”

“But it will all be okay, right, because in three days, I’ll raise you from the dead so that we can say that this proves you are who we already know you are without ever the necessity of our creating a universe or even a human race to begin with and then declare faith in that as the ostensible means by which we confer saving grace on the humans but without telling them, until John Calvin comes along, that what they think is turning to us in faith to freely receive the gift of forgiveness and salvation is every bit as programmed and inevitable as the fate of the majority of the human race on their way to burn and suffer eternally in the lake of fire for refusing to believe that which I will have made them unable to believe since before I will have ever created anything at all, and this all for my praise and glory. How does that sound?”

And does God the Son say, “Wait a second, you’re going to create a universe with a world of conscious beings made in our image, screw them over in the most horrendous ways imaginable, hold them responsible for what you’re going to compel them to do, and then, near the end of the whole shebang, make ME suffer for every sin they ever committed without their ever having had the capacity to decide otherwise and die so that those who don’t even have the capacity to make anything but a faux choice will be “saved”? And that will make the relationship you and I and the Holy Spirit are sharing right now better how?” or does he say, “Hey, that sounds great and we’ll call it the GOOD NEWS!”

23 posted on Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:49:31 AM by aruanan Posted by Permission.

Calvin, dead and silent, still trying to lead Christians astray.


1,268 posted on 01/28/2011 8:00:22 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
ah, but the Scriptures say there is only ONE baptism, not 2 or 3.

Oh, really?

There is the baptism of John. Acts 13:24 "When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel."

There is the baptism of Jesus. Acts 19:4-5 "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire. Matt. 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"

There were also ritual baptisms in the Old Testament, the word "rachats" was used to mean wash, wash off, wash away, bathe and was used metaphorically to mean to wash the defilement of sin adhering to men. It was set as an ordinance forever for there to be a laver of bronze/brass to be put between the tabernacle and the altar for all the sons of Aaron (the priests) to wash before they made offerings to the Lord. Exodus 30:18-21 "18 “Make a bronze basin, with its bronze stand, for washing. Place it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and put water in it. 19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it. 20 Whenever they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die. Also, when they approach the altar to minister by presenting a food offering to the LORD, 21 they shall wash their hands and feet so that they will not die. This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descendants for the generations to come.”

Offerings of animals were also ritually baptized (washed) before being offered. So, I hope you see that thinking baptize always and only means the water baptism "sacrament" is not correct.

1,269 posted on 01/28/2011 8:38:25 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Quix
LOLOL! Penguins are so cute.
1,270 posted on 01/28/2011 8:45:04 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Agreed.

Even the quizzical Opus pic I post is a favorite of mine.


1,271 posted on 01/28/2011 9:09:33 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos; boatbums

I don’t need your help on anything.

I’ve seen what you’ve posted on different topics and how unScriptural it is. I don’t trust Catholicism or Catholics to give me the truth about anything any more.

I prefer to get my spiritual teaching from a more reliable source. Like the Bible.


1,272 posted on 01/28/2011 9:12:33 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; Cronos
You need to discuss your apparent confusion with Cronos. He insists that the Mass is not a sacrifice but a "re-presentation" of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Additionally, my reply to him had to do with Justin's explanation of the early church's worship service. Like I said, he made no mention of an altar (altars are used to sacrifice things, ya know), no special, nifty clothes or vestments for the "presider" - not priest, and the deacons passed out the bread and water/wine to the congregants.

With the preaching from the Scriptures, prayers, offerings, greetings and communion service it certainly sounds exactly like "Protestant" services today. So the claim that only the Roman Catholic Church is the one, only, true, church based on this detail is flimsy. Were you up-to-date in your reading or just making the usual snappy comments?

1,273 posted on 01/28/2011 9:15:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; count-your-change; ...
Hebrews 9:24-28 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Emphasis mine.....

1,274 posted on 01/28/2011 9:16:59 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
wanted you to especially note what he says about the “washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth” many people who knew St John were still alive when he wrote that, puts the whole baptism is just a first act of obedience heresy in it’s proper light.

And? Of course we must be baptized to be saved. Just not the baptism you seem to be hung up on. There is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) that occurs when a person puts their trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior. That is when they become born again. The act of water baptism after they make this decision is in obedience to Christ to make an outward confession of faith to others and to indicate a commitment to walking in newness of life - just like it was done in the very beginning. Pigeonholing is not a smart practice and shows a lack of thinking about what we say before we say it and also to not just spout off what someone else says without being able to defend it yourself.

1,275 posted on 01/28/2011 9:23:45 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you really DON’T need to respond to every post in this thread. Maybe they didn’t explain that to you when they gave you the night shift responsibility.


1,276 posted on 01/28/2011 9:28:41 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: Quix

Opus is one of my favorites!


1,277 posted on 01/28/2011 10:02:08 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Quix

May our Lord return soon!

The way they tell it to us (in the Episcopal seminary, that is), there was an intellectual explosion around the 1200’s. We mostly don’t appreciate that the Muslims weren’t “over there”, but rather, just down the road a piece.

(I cannot recommend the Penguin Atlas of the middle ages- or whatever they call it— enough. It’s really inexpensive, like $20, and it shows how chaotic things were all around the Mediterranean and through Europe.)

So there was great intellectual ferment shared by the “Abrahamic religions” because all three were strongly represented in what we now call Spain. And the Muslims had all the good Greek stuff.

(I am kind of on fire today because this is the feast of St. Thomas Aquinas, and a bunch of my lay Dominican friends made life vows today. My life vows, God willing, are next year. Anyway it was a great service with TWO totally awesome sermons, and I’m fired up!)

So this explosion of thought SEEMS to have happened because of texts the Muslims shared with us.(And it’s interesting and sad to report that the best Muslim thinkers and scholars were generally condemned by Islam as a whole.) So IF the Vatican had the texts and were sitting on them we have to come up with a plausible reason why. And it sure didn’t work!

And, for us, though Aquinas was not without his opponents while he lived and, after he died, Albert the Great came to defend his thought at an inquisition, he is the “Angelic Doctor” (doctor = teacher) because of the clarity and comprehensiveness of his thought and the depth of his piety as shown by his hymns.


1,278 posted on 01/28/2011 10:02:43 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Judith Anne
Do you know what YOPIOS is? It stands for, "Your Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture." Sort of what Luther meant when he wrote that every milkmaid would now be her own pope. Go for it!

Yes, I do know what YOPIOS stands for and, ironically, it is not just the dreaded "Protestants" that exercise it. That supposed quote of Luther's about the milkmaid, well I would love to see where you got it from. My research has led to several references to milkmaids and plowboys that Luther spoke of and each time it was positively as it had to do with how each person has the right to read and hear Gods word for themselves and how some, through being open and teachable by the leading and indwelling of the Holy Spirit when they came to faith in Jesus Christ, could actually do a better job at it than the so-called expert theologians of the Catholic Church.

I also found this interesting quote from beggarsallreformation:

In regards to “sects”- Luther said of the Roman Catholic Church: “…there is no other place in the world where there are so many sects, schisms, and errors as in the papal church. For the papacy, because it builds the church upon a city and person, has become the head and fountain of all sects which have followed it and have characterized Christian life in terms of eating and drinking, clothes and shoes, tonsures and hair, city and place, day and hour. For the spirituality and holiness of the papal church lives by such things, as was said above.  This order fasts at this time, another order fasts at another time; this one does not eat meat, the other one does not eat eggs; this one wears black, the other one white; this one is Carthusian,  the other Benedictine;  and so they continue to create innumerable sects and habits, while faith and true Christian life go to pieces. All this is the result of the blindness which desires to see rather than believe the Christian church and to seek devout Christian life not in faith but in works, of which St. Paul writes so much in Colossians [2]. These things have invaded the church and blindness has confirmed the government of the pope.”

1,279 posted on 01/28/2011 10:43:16 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

Martin Luther believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. He became indignant when groups, who had followed him out of the Catholic Church, rejected the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. He deplored the fact that every milkmaid and farmhand thought they could interpret scripture correctly. Here he is in his own words.

Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391


1,280 posted on 01/28/2011 10:55:51 PM PST by Judith Anne (Holy Mary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.)
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To: metmom

Amen! Thank you. I don’t see why it is so difficult for people to recognize that the commemoration of the last supper has every bit as much importance to us as Christians observing Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection for us for all our sins and that we do NOT need to pretend what we eat and drink are mysteriously changed by an incantation. His communion/remembrance is to honor and meditate upon what he did for us, not to try to metaphysically place ourselves back there to live in the moment. It is also to remind us of the responsibility we have to each other in the entire body of Christ to honor and love as he would have us do.


1,281 posted on 01/28/2011 10:57:35 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
No, Augustine did not believe in Limited Atonement, nor do the rest of your quotes support that notion. When Athanasius writes "Christ...gave Himself up to death for us all as a sacrifice to His Father," you are making the giagantic and erroneous leap that "us" includes all men who every lived. And it doesn't. Athanasius, like the rest of your quotes, was addressing "all" believers.

Your own source even says Augustine was well-known for his belief in Limited Atonement. lol. With "evidence" like that, you lose.

Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for the entire world, but it was efficient for only the elect, or else all the world would be saved.

Are you a universalist? Do you believe all men are saved?

Augustine didn't.

Here Augustine clearly draws a line between believers (THE CHURCH) and reprobates where "the whole world" means "all believers," not "all men," or he would not have drawn the distinction between "the church" and all others.

(Augustine on 1 John 2:2) - For he that has said, “We have Jesus Christ the righteous, and He is the propitiation for our sins:” having an eye to those who would divide themselves, and would say, “Lo, here is Christ, lo, there;” Matthew 24:23 and would show Him in a part who bought the whole and possesses the whole, he immediately goes on to say, “Not our sins only, but also the sins of the whole world.” What is this, brethren? Certainly “we have found it in the fields of the woods,” we have found the Church in all nations. Behold, Christ “is the propitiation for our sins; not ours only, but also the sins of the whole world.” Behold, you have the Church throughout the whole world; do not follow false justifiers who in truth are cutters off. Be in that mountain which has filled the whole earth: because “Christ is the propitiation for our sins; not only ours, but also the sins of the whole world,” which He has bought with His blood.

If Christ had "bought with His blood" the redemption of all men everywhere, then all men everywhere would be saved.

And they aren't.

As for "church fathers," Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas also believed in Limited Atonement.

If God wanted all men to be saved, all men would be saved.

Christ tells us in John 10 "the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep;" and all men are not Christ's sheep. Only those whom God has given to Him to bring home. If Christ died for men who are not saved, then his death failed in its purpose and this is impossible. Limited atonement is sometimes described as "definite atonement" or "particular atonement" because Christ's death definitely and literally provided redemption for the people of God.

To believe in a universal, unlimited atonement means that Christ's death merely made it possible for men to be saved. He didn't really save anyone in particular on Calvary. Which is not what Scripture tells us. Scripture says Christ came to redeem His sheep, and He did exactly that.

Read Charles Hodge's excellent chapter on the Limited Atonement of Augustine as opposed to the Unlimited Atonement of various universalists...

FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?

This is a question between Augustinians and Anti-Augustinians. The former believing that God from all eternity having elected some to everlasting life, had a special reference to their salvation in the mission and work of his Son. The latter, denying that there has been any such election of a part of the human family to salvation, maintain that the mission and work of Christ had an equal reference to all mankind...

And speaking of the "church fathers," let's hear what Thomas Aquinas has to say about predestination and election...

“The reason for the predestination of some and reprobation of others (praedestinationis aliquorum, et reprobationis aliorum) must be sought for in the divine goodness.... God wills to manifest his goodness in those whom he predestines, by means of the mercy with which he spares them; and in respect of others whom he reprobates, by means of the justice with which he punishes them. This is the reason why God chooses some (quosdam eligit) and reprobates others (quosdam reprobat).... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will (non habet rationem nisi divinam voluntatem).”

Sounds like a sturdy Calvinist.

1,282 posted on 01/28/2011 11:58:42 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
those that accuse the Church of teaching we are saved by good works

You mean like the Baltimore Catechism teaches here?

The sacrament of Penance is the sacrament by which sins committed after Baptism are forgiven through the absolution of the priest. The priest has the power to forgive sins from Jesus Christ. Our Lord said to the apostles and to their successors in the priesthood: "Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." The effects of the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, are: (1) sanctifying grace; (2) the forgiveness of sins; (3) the remission of the eternal punishment, if necessary, and also, of part at least, of the temporal punishment due to our sins; (4) the help to avoid sin in future; (5) the restoration of the merits of our good works if they have been lost by mortal sin.

So Roman Catholics are taught that their good works "merit" forgiveness of sins. Salvation.

And God's word denies that.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5

1,283 posted on 01/29/2011 12:25:55 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: boatbums; HossB86
Actually, no, it's what the Scripture says clearly.

All three accounts of the institution of the Lord's Supper in the Gospels (Matthew 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-23) explicitly state that Jesus took BREAD, blessed it, broke it, and gave it to his disciples saying, "Take, eat; this [i.e., this BREAD, which I have just blessed and broken and am now giving to you] is my body."

And you have 1 Cor. 10:16-17, where Paul writes: "The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread."

Similarly, in 1 Cor. 11:26, Paul says: "For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." Paul expressly states here that when we receive the Lord's Supper we are "eating bread" and "drinking the cup" (wine), but he goes on to say that those who eat this bread and drink this cup are also partaking of the true body and blood of Christ

In fact, Paul goes on to say that those who partake of the bread and wine "in an unworthy manner" are actually guilty of "profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27).

If you wish to keep denying scripture. Good luck to you.
1,284 posted on 01/29/2011 2:40:41 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; HossB86
In fact your denying of scripture is exactly what Martin Luther rebuked when he said
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture?

Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies?

What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men.

Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

1,285 posted on 01/29/2011 2:41:27 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; HossB86
And, remember that
From the time of Nero (d. A.D. 68), the Christian faith was treated by the civil authorities as an unlawful religion, and Christians were slandered by pagan propagandists as atheists who took part in cannibal feasts and indulged in sexual promiscuity
Remember, just as for you to doubt scripture, it was also hard for the Roman pagans to believe Jesus Christ's words directly or through Paul, hence Justin Martyr who wrote in his First Apology (A.D. 151) to the pagan Emperor "The food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."
1,286 posted on 01/29/2011 2:43:29 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom
I prefer to get my spiritual teaching from a more reliable source. --> you don't think the LCMS sermon is reliable?

As I gave the link a sermon on why Jesus Christ is God from Holy Trinity Lutheran Church sermons.
“And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing eh persons nor dividing the substance.” Not three gods but one God in essence. And yet not one Person but three Persons. Tri-une. Three in One and One in Three. Got it?
There's a lot more detailed proof on why Jesus Christ is BOTH True man and True God. Jesus Christ is our Lord and our God. There’s a lot more there to help you to know Jesus Christ as God.
1,287 posted on 01/29/2011 2:46:23 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; one Lord one faith one baptism
Dear Metmom,

We Christians, whether Pentecostal, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Orthodox, etc. all believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord, God and Savior.

Yes, He is God (as He said "I am"). I know that many group leaders may say otherwise, there are many non-Christian groups out there that will try to say that He was just a created being, or some others even say that He was just a man or others yet say that He was a man who became God.

These are all wrong. There are numerous Biblical proofs that Jesus Christ IS God.

I urge you to accept Christ as Lord and GOD, part of the ONE Triune God (for we do not believe in 3 gods but in ONE God).

Whether one wishes to celebrate God's love in an exuberant way (Pentecostal/Charismatic style) or a less exuberant way (Presbyterian style) -- all of us believe in Jesus Christ as God.

Wishing you in the name of the Lord, God, Jesus

Cronos

P.S. --> you can even read the PCA history which says clearly that Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh; that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, and through Him we have our redemption; that having died for our sins He rose from the dead and is our everliving Saviour; that in His earthly ministry He wrought many mighty works, and by His vicarious death and unfailing presence He is able to save to the uttermost. --> it is important for all to acknowledge Jesus Christ is God. I hope that God will bless you with grace and insight and to know that Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior
1,288 posted on 01/29/2011 2:57:58 AM PST by Cronos
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
What is strange is that the posters here don't realise that in the official teachings of the Catholic Church are:
We can do nothing to merit the grace that comes to us in baptism, which is the normal beginning of the Christian life. In fact, the Council of Trent condemned anyone who taught that we can save ourselves or who taught even that God helps us do what we could do for ourselves. The Church teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace
The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:

Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life

1,289 posted on 01/29/2011 3:06:39 AM PST by Cronos
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism; boatbums; Dr. Eckleburg; HossB86
From the Church catechism teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace
The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Rom 6:19, 22 --> Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.... But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life

The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification

The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace.

1,290 posted on 01/29/2011 3:10:19 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Quix; daniel1212
From the Church catechism teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace
Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church
As you can see Quix.
1,291 posted on 01/29/2011 3:11:53 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Quix; daniel1212; one Lord one faith one baptism
From the Church catechism teaches that we can be saved only by God’s grace
With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator

The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Our merits are God's gifts.

We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God

1,292 posted on 01/29/2011 3:16:15 AM PST by Cronos
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To: metmom; one Lord one faith one baptism
metmom : I prefer to get my spiritual teaching from a more reliable source. Like the Bible

And the Bible has adequate proof that Jesus Christ is God. You can see it clearly written there. Disbelieve what any leader or elder or whatever may say to the contrary, but Jesus Christ is NOT a created being, He is God
Matthew 1:23 :“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[a] (which means “God with us”).

John 20:28

Acts 20:28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom
We Christians profess Jesus to be the only Son of God, the Lord and the eternal Word of God.

Besides the above, there are plenty of proof that Jesus Christ is really God.

I would urge you to read the Bible deeply and you too will see that Jesus Christ is Lord and God.
1,293 posted on 01/29/2011 3:46:10 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; one Lord one faith one baptism
Boatbums, does your group do this as outlined by Justin Martyr? As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
The liturgy of the Eucharist unfolds according to a fundamental structure which has been preserved throughout the centuries down to our own day. It displays two great parts that form a fundamental unity:
  1. the gathering, the liturgy of the Word, with readings, homily and general intercessions;
  2. the liturgy of the Eucharist, with the presentation of the bread and wine, the consecratory thanksgiving, and communion
The liturgy of the Word and liturgy of the Eucharist together form "one single act of worship".

The Eucharistic table set for us is the table both of the Word of God and of the Body of the Lord.

Is this not the same movement as the Paschal meal of the risen Jesus with his disciples? Walking with them he explained the Scriptures to them; sitting with them at table "he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Lk 24:13-35

On the Road to Emmaus
 13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

 17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”

   They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”

   19 “What things?” he asked.

   “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”

 25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

 28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

 30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

 33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.


1,294 posted on 01/29/2011 3:58:38 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; one Lord one faith one baptism
Furthermore, there is a difference between Church doctrines, disciplines, customs, and devotions. Dogmas are the infallible teachings of the Church and include such things as purgatory and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Church disciplines are the Church's human laws and rulings like vestments

Also, do note the mode of dress used in the Roman Empire in which Christianity did spread and compare that to the vestments. The laity changed their cloth-fashions.

Orthodox/Catholic/Oriental/Assyrian/Lutheran/Anglican priests simply retained their manner of liturgical dress. Priestly vestments are no more than stylized secular Roman garments which have accrued symbolic, liturgical significance over the centuries.

Here's a good link from the Lutheran CMS site
The unbroken connection with apostolic times is also revealed in the external forms of the liturgy. The altar is today the only place in our modern life where, with unbroken tradition, the vestments are still used which were worn by people in that olden day. Within the walls of the church one can still hear musical settings that preserve something of the very tones of that hymn of praise which our Lord and His disciples sang when they ate the paschal meal. The church is the one place in the modern world where one can still hear the best of medieval music and see the choicest treasures of medieval art as a living part of our culture. There is nothing in all the world today which embraces so much of an ancient culture or so many revered traditions as our chief liturgical service.

1,295 posted on 01/29/2011 4:04:08 AM PST by Cronos
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To: boatbums; one Lord one faith one baptism
Also, Altars are used in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian, Roman Catholic, Lutheran and Anglican Churches.

You can read more here -- www.newliturgicalmovement.org
1,296 posted on 01/29/2011 4:07:09 AM PST by Cronos
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

“...and no man is authorized to start another one!”

And yet, we have the Roman Catholic Church. If only the RCC did as the scripture commanded instead of men making up blasphemous “traditions” out of whole cloth.

Hoss


1,297 posted on 01/29/2011 4:34:51 AM PST by HossB86
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To: Cronos; metmom; Quix

“Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life”

Then why does the Roman Catholic Church need to add to this??? And, please—do not say that Rome has not or does not do that very thing, because we all here have seen “tradition” touted.

That is the problem — out of one side of a Rome’s mouth we hear God’s Word quoted, and then, out the other side we hear it twisted and mangled so viciously all for the purpose of controlling people, and trying (and may I add, not very successfully) to support false, man-made doctrines that have no foundation outside of men.

Sorry— had stopped with what God said, ‘we are saved by grace’ Instead of pushing traditions (here and other threads), we could agree.

Hoss


1,298 posted on 01/29/2011 4:44:00 AM PST by HossB86
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To: Cronos; metmom; Quix

‘Remember, just as for you to doubt scripture, it was also hard for the Roman pagans to believe Jesus Christ’s words directly or through Paul, hence Justin Martyr who wrote in his First Apology (A.D. 151) to the pagan Emperor “The food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.”’

First of all, I’ll thank you for not trying to read my mind; I do not doubt scripture; can you not resist making this personal? After so many warnings? Sheesh.

I DO however not only doubt, but in many cases deny the Roman Catholic interpretation (’mangling’) of scripture.

The Book of Martyr is canonized where?

Hoss


1,299 posted on 01/29/2011 4:54:28 AM PST by HossB86
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To: Cronos

“Actually, no, it’s what the Scripture says clearly.”

It’s too bad that for ‘clearly’ to have meaning to Rome, the definition must be changed to ‘distorting.’

Re-read my post about what participation means.

Fail. Try again.

Hoss


1,300 posted on 01/29/2011 4:57:31 AM PST by HossB86
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