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Pastor stirs wrath with his views on old questions (says no hell)
The New York Times ^ | 4-Mar-2011 | Erik Eckholm

Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders

In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: emergent; heaven; hell; robbell
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These people are moving further and further away from Christianity
1 posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:49 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Those who will not accept the Biblical teaching of Hell have usually not grasped the righteousness of God. Even in the first century of the Church there were those who would not accept the God of the Old Testament because He was not the loving God of the New Testament that they wished to worship.

God has revealed Himself to us through His Word, both Spoken and Incarnate. This revelation is ours to understand, not reinterpret to suit our own whims and desires.


2 posted on 03/05/2011 11:11:51 PM PST by the_Watchman (Healthcare reform was never about health.)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Rob Bell is simply advocating an unsound doctrine not based on Scripture. The Lord is a Just God and everlasting punishment is as much a part of His Almighty Plan as is eternal happiness in His Glorious Heaven.


3 posted on 03/05/2011 11:16:15 PM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Interestingly, the early Christians didn’t really believe in Hell. Instead, they believe in the Jewish Sheol, a zombie-like place where the dead went for eternity.

They believed that Satan and his minions would be cast into the lake of fire eventually, but not man.


4 posted on 03/05/2011 11:17:18 PM PST by Strk321
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To: the_Watchman
Those who will not accept the Biblical teaching of Hell have usually not grasped the righteousness of God. Even in the first century of the Church there were those who would not accept the God of the Old Testament because He was not the loving God of the New Testament that they wished to worship.

I disagree with this. Having read the OT and NT several times, I find that the greatest 'hellfire and brimstone' is in the NT, not the OT (particularly in Revelation, as well as in Jesus' own warnings in the Gospels). In book after book of the OT, God's love and patience and care for the Israelites despite their failings is endlessly demonstrated. The depiction of God as an ogre in the OT and a loving marshmallow in the NT is mythical nonsense born of biblical illiteracy.

5 posted on 03/05/2011 11:22:24 PM PST by Liberty1970 (Thanking God for many blessings :-))
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To: Liberty1970

“The depiction of God as an ogre in the OT and a loving marshmallow in the NT is mythical nonsense born of biblical illiteracy.”

In my experience, it’s mostly atheists who have that opinion.


6 posted on 03/05/2011 11:26:10 PM PST by Strk321
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To: Strk321

A major difference between the Old Testament and the New is that the New Testament has Jesus Christ. And as He died for our sins, maybe there is no need for hell?


7 posted on 03/05/2011 11:43:43 PM PST by OldEagle
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To: Strk321

Not true, in revelations we read about hell. Only the universalist unitarian cult believes in what this pastor is teaching.


8 posted on 03/05/2011 11:49:15 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
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To: Strk321

re: “Interestingly, the early Christians didn’t really believe in Hell. Instead, they believe in the Jewish Sheol, a zombie-like place where the dead went for eternity. They believed that Satan and his minions would be cast into the lake of fire eventually, but not man.”

It is true that the Old Testament is a bit vague about what Hell exactly is. It is also true that the word “hell” is the English word for “sheol”. However, Jesus was very clear about Hell. He taught that it was a real place of conscious eternal punishment - a place to be avoided at all costs. So, I believe you are greatly mistaken about the early Christians’ beliefs regarding Hell since they believed Jesus’s words implicitly. The Apostles were also clear about Hell being a place of torment.

The only place in the New Testament where the lake of fire is mentioned is in the book of Revelation which also declares that all those who reject Christ and whose names were not written in the “Book of Life” were also cast into the Lake of fire - along with Satan and the fallen angels. So, once again, I think you are mistaken about what early Christians believed. Since Revelation was written by the Apostle John, who was widely known among the early believers, I doubt that his writings were unknown to them either.


9 posted on 03/05/2011 11:49:40 PM PST by Nevadan
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To: OldEagle
Note everyone will be saved. The blood of Jesus is limited as to the number of sinners atoned for. He did not come to save all men as many are not destined for heaven.

Only the elect will be saved. John 10:11, 14-16 says clearly that the Good Shepherd laid down His life for His sheep only. Only the limited elect will be saved and the others are going to hell.

10 posted on 03/05/2011 11:54:27 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
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To: OldEagle

Let me direct you to the TULIP doctrine which explains this very well why there is only a limited atonement only for the elect. Most will not be saved, but will be punished in hell as reprobates. Only the pure, elect, chosen by God from before time will be given their places in heaven


11 posted on 03/05/2011 11:56:19 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
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To: Nevadan

“The Apostles were also clear about Hell being a place of torment.”

True, although as you point out, the lake of fire is only mentioned in Revelations as being the place where Satan and his minions go after the Last Judgement.

So although Hell is described as a place of torment, it’s hard to say what that means exactly. Some theologians think that the condemned simply wander forever in a state of darkness and misery, knowing that they cannot be with God.

Which is a bit like the Greek Hades (described as a dark, shadowy place where the dead wander).


12 posted on 03/05/2011 11:59:57 PM PST by Strk321
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

The OT doesn’t mention much about hell because the ancient Israelites, like most people at that time, gave little thought to life after death. This was true of the Europeans, Semites, and Asians. All were mainly only concerned with this world, and only the Egyptians really had a strong belief in the afterlife.


13 posted on 03/06/2011 12:04:16 AM PST by Strk321
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To: OldEagle

People who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell.

Read the Bible. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about Heaven.


14 posted on 03/06/2011 12:20:38 AM PST by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears (The "11th Commandment" applies to Republicans, not RINOs.)
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To: Strk321

“Interestingly, the early Christians didn’t really believe in Hell.”


Horsefeathers. They certainly did. Jesus Himself warned about hell.


15 posted on 03/06/2011 12:24:53 AM PST by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears (The "11th Commandment" applies to Republicans, not RINOs.)
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To: the_Watchman

>>Those who will not accept the Biblical teaching of Hell have usually not grasped the righteousness of God.<<

I’m finding with a lot of controversial issues, it is not the biblical teaching they rebel against, but their church’s interpretation of biblical teaching. Here is a good discussion of biblical teaching about hell, though many will not like reading it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2240648/posts


16 posted on 03/06/2011 1:02:45 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: re_nortex

>>The Lord is a Just God and everlasting punishment is as much a part of His Almighty Plan as is eternal happiness in His Glorious Heaven.<<

Where did you read that?

I like this analogy of the concept of eternal hell (not mine):

Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. “Marry me,” he says, “and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!”

Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, “You are welcome to take more time, but it’s only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life.”

What do you suppose would be going through the young woman’s mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right’s proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she’ll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.

Is this God’s way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn’t that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him “Savior” at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?


17 posted on 03/06/2011 1:08:47 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: OldEagle
Why should God in His dwelling place have to endure unjust people in His presence forever?

The answer is linked to why those who have rejected Him are removed from His presence eternally after the Judgment.

...as He died for our sins, maybe there is no need for hell?...

Technically, except for fallen angels and OT unbelievers, this would make some sense, except there also are humans who have fallen into the same rejection of what He provides as those fallen angels.

18 posted on 03/06/2011 1:10:42 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

He laid down His life for His sheep, including those not of His fold.


19 posted on 03/06/2011 1:14:21 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RobRoy

Unfortunately, I believe your analogy is incorrect. If we are considered to be the “bride-to-be,” then we must also see ourselves as one who cheated, or sinned against the loving husband (original sin, or the fall of man in the Garden of Eden). That act in the garden of wanting to be like God was enough for Him to turn his back on us. However, God so loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity that he sacrificed Himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. All we have to do is accept His sacrifice and live lives worthy of His sacrifice to be with him forever.


20 posted on 03/06/2011 1:37:15 AM PST by reegs
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Help me out here. You’re saying God created men, knowing beforehand that they were/are going to hell? Not being sarcastic, I just want to know.


21 posted on 03/06/2011 1:43:10 AM PST by PeteePie (Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people - Proverbs 14:34)
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To: RobRoy
Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that?

Straw dog argument. Let's not fall for that.

All humanity is condemned, but there will be a Judgment and those found to be righteous and justified have salvation. We don't place our faith in Christ when we fear Him, rather fear (, not hate,) is the opposite of love, and it is the natural reaction in our perspective when we are not in fellowship with perfect righteousness and justice.

When we sin, i.e. when we miss the mark of His Plan, our perspective of Him is not in fellowship with Him, but instead one of expectation of fiery indignation. If for no other reason we realize the fallen angels were judged and condemned with less provision than what He has given in His perfect Sacrifice for us, so it's perfectly reasonable to anticipate fiery indignation for our sin.

The difference in that perspective and the Christian walk is that Christ has already paid the price for ALL sin.

No human being is going to be sent to eternal torment for their personal sins. Christ already settled that issue on the Cross. If He hadn't there would be no certainty or hope of eternal salvation.

Instead, He provides for our sanctification and in order to provide that, we must be in fellowship with Him. So when we sin, we re-enter into that fellowship by turning back to Him, confessing our sin to Him, (which BTW He already knew about from eternity past) and He is sure and just to forgive us that sin.

Judgment is different than forgiveness. The Cross was all about judgment. That is why we are able to be forgiven on a moment's notice today by a just and righteous God who always does the right thing in a right way.

Judgment is going to come to determine the eternal destiny of those whom He has created. Those predestined as the elect will escape the Great White Throne Judgment, but will face the bema seat for rewards.

I've considered the philosophy of hell as a parable, but its usage in Scripture is definitely locative and is spiritually perceived and described from perceptions using physical descriptions.

It really doesn't matter if one doesn't believe it exists, because when it is perceived, the people perceiving it will be unable to avoid it and it has been perceived and described as an eternal lake of fire.

22 posted on 03/06/2011 1:59:34 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: the_Watchman; The Watcher

Yes, Jesus the living Word of God, not just the archangel Michael as Adventists believe Him to be


23 posted on 03/06/2011 2:07:59 AM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

The link doesn’t work.


24 posted on 03/06/2011 2:19:49 AM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

The problem is that sin is not a state of being, but an act... a transgression against others or against G-d.

Therefore, until the person actually commits such a transgression, they have not sinned. Of course, that really only applies to infants, but the point still remains.


25 posted on 03/06/2011 2:32:37 AM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: PeteePie

God created man (Adam,..and the second Adam, Christ) and imputes life to every human soul. Nobody can remove that life from the soul except God Himself.

The argument of Him predestining those who reject Him to Hell, is known as double predestination, and IMHO advocated by Beza after Calvin passed away and IMHO is not Scriptural.

Scripture is clear, though, that the decision to move unbelievers out from His presence isn’t merely limited to His immediate locality, but a very locative place we call Hell, and it isn’t simply to relocate them, but punishment is associated with the judgment and a qualifying description of that location and judgment.


26 posted on 03/06/2011 2:36:53 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RobRoy

Bad analogy. Your example only works if the woman was already on death row about to be executed for a series of gruesome crimes, a person who deserved the death penalty 100 times over. And God gives that person a chance at Heaven or allows them to continue on their way to go to the hell they deserve. God has no obligation to save anyone from the Hell they deserve and ask for. That he saves some as a result of their own choice to be with him is pure grace and perfect love. Perfect because God himself had to die to accomplish it.


27 posted on 03/06/2011 3:03:48 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Cvengr
"rather fear (, not hate,) is the opposite of love,"

I believe indifference is the opostive of love.

28 posted on 03/06/2011 3:07:32 AM PST by circlecity
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Actually, Bell doesn’t say in his book that there is no hell, nor is he a universalist. Your parenthetical addition in the headline is wrong. This is about a bunch of neo-Calvinists who got their panties in a knot before they even read the book.

Bell does have a cessationist view of hell, which is an orthodox view within evangelicalism. However, the neo-Calvinists (Justin Taylor, John Piper, and others) are bent on deliberately misquoting Bell to try to destroy him.

Bell’s teaching style is to ask hard questions rather than just hand out easy answers. Then the neo-Calvinists take the difficult questions he asks and decide that means he must believe x, y and z. Frankly, if their reading comprehension is that low, how can anyone trust their reading of scripture or even of John Calvin.


29 posted on 03/06/2011 3:08:02 AM PST by mongrel
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To: gogogodzilla

Doesn’t matter.

Humans from birth have a genetically transmitted old sin nature.

We do not begin life with a regenerated human spirit. We do begin life upon birth with a soul imputed with life from God, and a body imputed with biological life.

A vocabulary word used by Greek archers on the practice range, “Sin” is simply “missing the mark”. The mark in context is God’s Plan.

Humans have volition and in our thinking, whenever we think independent of Him, we step out of line,...i.e. we have missed the mark, we have sinned.

We too often associate sin with immorality or transgression of the law. While such behavior is indeed sinful, sin is much simpler to understand when in fellowship with Him as ANYTHING other than walking by His Plan.

God’s Plan was for Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of knowledge of good and evil. Once eaten the human species fell out of fellowship with God. Our human spirit was no longer with God.

While Christ has redeemed us from the slave market of sin, we have not been forgiven until we exhibit faith in Him. His grace is given to those with faith for their continuing sanctification, in preparation for rewards we will use for eternity future. Until we are able to comprehend the Gospel, should we suffer the first death, He is free from the payment at the Cross to forgive us for those things we did not understand, because He has paid the price for ALL sin.

This is why children who die before the age of accountability and idiots or the mentally deficient will have eternal life and not automatically condemned to Hell. It’s all His Work.

The unbeliever though has evidence of His Plan in all things about him, so even if not being exposed to the Gospel, he is without excuse if both is name is blotted out of the Book of Life and his works lack Divine Righteousness when they are judged. If an unbeliever were perfect and without sin, he would find nothing wrong with Christ and those who follow and walk with Him.


30 posted on 03/06/2011 3:11:07 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: circlecity

Perhaps in a Binary world where either love or fear exist but not both, apathy would qualify.

Maybe a thinking such as:

Love = 1

Fear = -1

Apathy = 0

Within the domain of uncontrollable feelings, the opposite of love is fear, not apathy.

In the Greek suffix, Fear is PHOBIA and Love is PHILIA. Both are uncontrollable feelings for or against an object.

Granted this interpretation is in regards to a brotherly love, vice AGAPE or sacrificial love.

It’s interesting to note that the 3 time Christ queried Peter if he loved Him, the first two times Jesus Christ asked if Peter AGAPE’d Christ, and Peter responded he PHILEO’d Christ and the third time, Christ asked if he PHILEO’d Christ.


31 posted on 03/06/2011 3:44:54 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Strk321

“hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek.


32 posted on 03/06/2011 3:49:34 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: Cvengr
"Within the domain of uncontrollable feelings, the opposite of love is fear, not apathy."

I would respectfully disagree. One can love someone they fear. We are to love God and fear him. One cannot love and be indifferent towards someone.

33 posted on 03/06/2011 4:01:36 AM PST by circlecity
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To: mongrel
This is about a bunch of neo-Calvinists who got their panties in a knot before they even read the book.

BINGO!

This response to those folks is spot on.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/atheologies/4332/pastor_rob_be

ll_catches_hell_from_conservatives_%7C_(a)theologies_%7C_/ "a dangerous combination of humility and arrogance that hermetically seals fanatics from reason and evidence"
34 posted on 03/06/2011 4:23:07 AM PST by ktupper
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To: Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears

“Read the Bible. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did about Heaven.”

You beat me to it. Some people just choose to ignore what makes them uncomfortable, even if it’s staring at them in the face.


35 posted on 03/06/2011 4:46:00 AM PST by MayflowerMadam
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To: reegs

I agree that the analogy is limited. I think it also comes from an understanding of human nature though. And God has that understanding. To take that part of the analogy further, her cheating, since he created her, could lead to His uncreating her, kinda like He did with the great flood. It is the punishment that is beyond human comprehension, and “unending” that I am challenged to pull from the actual words of the bible.

That analogy was not mine, but this one is: If I say I am going to paint a fence blue for all eternity do I mean I am going to spend all eternity painting it, or that I am going to paint it once and it will STAY BLUE.

It is interesting that the bible is very clear that those who accept Christ will go on to eternal life, while those that don’t, won’t. And what is the opposite of life?


36 posted on 03/06/2011 4:54:37 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: reegs

>>That act in the garden of wanting to be like God was enough for Him to turn his back on us. However, God so loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity that he sacrificed Himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. All we have to do is accept His sacrifice and live lives worthy of His sacrifice to be with him forever.<<

I agree with all of that except for the word “and” in your last sentence. I also praise Jesus that although I give Him cause to turn His back on my daily, He is faithful and just and provided the ultimate sacrifice. And that is grace. He has “saved” me in spite of who I am. Actually, Paul talks about it quite a bit in Romans.

My life is NOT worthy of His sacrifice. That is why it is called Grace.


37 posted on 03/06/2011 4:58:09 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: Liberty1970

I can’t imagine a Holy (separated?) God and a future rest with Him that would allow the rebellious ,and the unrighteous ,and the unbeliever to continue in that Holy place.The horned devil with beard and tail-and pitchfork-and Dantes’ vision of eternal damnation seem more a prelude to the movie night with such perverted joys as Saw-and Friday the 13th and their ilk. I rather prefer the idea those mentioned above as
unfit for the Holy place being like fat burned up on a consuming fire—here one moment then gone in righteous judgement?


38 posted on 03/06/2011 4:58:11 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: OldEagle

Jesus permeates the OT. The OT is about Him Jesus sez so.

Like us, folks in the OT were saved by faith in Him.


39 posted on 03/06/2011 4:59:05 AM PST by Gamecock (The resurrection of Jesus Christ is both historically credible and existentially satisfying. T.K.)
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To: Cvengr

Eh, that’s your belief... and it’s wrong.


40 posted on 03/06/2011 5:02:55 AM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: Cvengr

A lot of people have a hard time with hell, which exists in eternity, partly because they do not realize what eternity. Nobody really does. The only way I can wrap my mind about it is by juxtaposing it with the reality we all currently occupy thusly: Time is a current flowing in an ocean called eternity.

The core of the whole thing to me is that I believe that the opposite of eternal life is eternal death. That is, once you are dead, you STAY dead. The body dies in this reality. All that is left is the spirit. If one does not accept the saving grace of the atoning blood of Christ, then their spirit does not go to eternal life, but death. That is my perspective, but whenever I state an opinion on this I am mindful of the scripture that says that now we see as through a glass dimly, but then clearly.

One thing’s for sure though: I don’t do the “turn or burn” message and do not think it is scriptural. Rather, I go for “Turn or die - permanently.” Which may explain why some people CHOOSE death. Which is also something I believe.


41 posted on 03/06/2011 5:05:02 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

>>Not true, in revelations we read about hell.<<

To be fair, in Revelation (no “s” at the end) we read about a LOT of stuff that is mindbogglingly controversial. Pre-tribulationists see the rapture in chapter 4, while mid-tribulationists see it in chapter 7. And the other chapters spawn no end to controversy.

If revelation is your only source, you are not going to get very far convincing people of your theory.


42 posted on 03/06/2011 5:09:07 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: circlecity

>>I believe indifference is the opostive of love.<<

I strongly agree with that. Fear, otoh, is the opposite of faith, and vice versa.


43 posted on 03/06/2011 5:13:48 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: mongrel

>>Bell’s teaching style is to ask hard questions rather than just hand out easy answers.<<

I kept getting banned from DU by using that exact tactic. People don’t like hard questions.


44 posted on 03/06/2011 5:15:13 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

The problem I’ve always had with Calvinism/Reformed (TULIP) is the fact that God is a JUST God.

He is Sovereign so He has the authority, He has the power but is He justified in this picking and choosing?

Example: Is God then justified in allowing a child to come into the world born into poverty, to be abused by her father, forced into prostitution and drugs barely into her teens and then having her life ended by some sicko before she even reaches the age of 20.

At the end of this short and pitiful life she then stands before the God of the universe only to hear the words “Get thee from Me for I never CHOSE you!” Sorry but where’s the justification in this?

I believe in an eternal heaven and hell but I don’t believe the TULIP interpretation of scripture. We must understand that God is all knowing and that prior to the creation of the world there were decisions that were made which obviously affected the final results. Some decisions that come to my limited mind are how much interaction between God and man and when, Obviously that Jesus was to come and allow Himself to be crucified for our sins and finally who are the people God needed to Personally get involved with to bring about His ultimate plan (Paul comes to mind).

All this was to bring about the ideal outcome of maximizing those that would come to trust in the Lord. So when looked at in this fashion then yes God chose this direction earth would take and ultimately then God did (in a way) choose who would and who would not be saved but He didn’t do it by say these I will save and those I will not.

Maybe I’ve not explained myself well but to me it all boils down to justification.


45 posted on 03/06/2011 5:57:08 AM PST by thatjoeguy (Wind is just air, but pushier.)
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To: thatjoeguy
I believe in an eternal heaven and hell but I don’t believe the TULIP interpretation of scripture.

Then you believe there are sinless immortal people in the world?

The T in Tulip came from the Council of Ephesus in the year 381. The doctrine of Pelagius had spread over the known world before that. His belief was that sin was only learned (not inherited) and therefore there could be sinless immortal people in the world (like Romulus and Remus, supposedly raised by a she-wolf).

So, I am assuming that you believe there are sinless immortals in the world?

46 posted on 03/06/2011 6:52:30 AM PST by sr4402
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To: the_Watchman
Those who will not accept the Biblical teaching of Hell have usually not grasped the righteousness of God.

Nor the Holiness of God. God cannot tolerate or allow sin in heaven because of His Holiness. Excluded is anything or anyone who is not holy.

Because Mankind died with Adam, none have a righteousness or holiness of their own. None can attain heaven on their own merits due to their sinful nature, but also due to even one sin added to it. Paul in Romans agrees with King David - None are righteous, NOT EVEN ONE.

Therefore it is imperative to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the narrow gate - that gate is Christ. For there is no other way that faith upon Christ alone and His death upon the cross paying for the sins of folks like us. There is no other way.

And if God will not accept anyone without that sheepskin, there has to be a place for immortal souls to go. And there is no other way of putting it, but that place is Hell.

It is a place where folks cannot move and burn like incense on a plate. They serve him as they were designed, but not in the presence of pure love, pure joy, and pure holiness of which God is.

Therefore, logically, those who do not believe in Hell, do not believe in the Holiness of God.

47 posted on 03/06/2011 7:05:38 AM PST by sr4402
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To: the_Watchman
Those who will not accept the Biblical teaching of Hell have usually not grasped the righteousness of God.

Nor the Holiness of God. God cannot tolerate or allow sin in heaven because of His Holiness. Excluded is anything or anyone who is not holy.

Because Mankind died with Adam, none have a righteousness or holiness of their own. None can attain heaven on their own merits due to their sinful nature, but also due to even one sin added to it. Paul in Romans agrees with King David - None are righteous, NOT EVEN ONE.

Therefore it is imperative to enter the Kingdom of Heaven through the narrow gate - that gate is Christ. For there is no other way that faith upon Christ alone and His death upon the cross paying for the sins of folks like us. There is no other way.

And if God will not accept anyone without that sheepskin, there has to be a place for immortal souls to go. And there is no other way of putting it, but that place is Hell.

It is a place where folks cannot move and burn like incense on a plate. They serve him as they were designed, but not in the presence of pure love, pure joy, and pure holiness of which God is.

Therefore, logically, those who do not believe in Hell, do not believe in the Holiness of God.

48 posted on 03/06/2011 7:05:49 AM PST by sr4402
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To: RobRoy

I agree with your disagreement! LOL. Looking back at what I wrote (in the middle of the night) I should have said that we need to TRY to live our lives worthy of the sacrifice made for us. As humans, we will always fall short, and, thanks be to God, he understands and forgives.


49 posted on 03/06/2011 7:38:35 AM PST by reegs
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

Somehow I feel a Coke commercial is needed here.


50 posted on 03/06/2011 7:42:55 AM PST by Altura Ct.
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