Skip to comments.Overcoming the Stench of Sin (REAL Mormon / LDS)
Posted on 03/10/2011 3:04:23 PM PST by Paragon Defender
Elder Spencer V. Jones
Of the Seventy
Spencer V. Jones, "Overcoming the Stench of Sin", Ensign, May 2003, 8889
Our loving Heavenly Father, knowing that you and I would all sin and become unclean, provided a cleansing process from sin that actually does work.
Every decision we make, good or bad, carries an accompanying consequence.
I grew up in what some of you might call a boring farming community: Virden, New Mexico, population 135. One summer night when I was a boy, my cousins, some friends, and I were looking for ways to create some excitement. Someone suggested we play a harmless prank on a neighbor. My conscience whispered it was wrong, but I didnt have the courage to resist the enthusiastic response of the group.
After performing our mischievous act, we sprinted down the dark country road to make our escape, laughing and congratulating ourselves as we ran. Suddenly, one of the group stumbled, crying out, Oh no, I kicked a cat! Almost instantly we felt a very fine mist settle over us. It carried a horrible odor. What my friend thought was a cat was actually a skunk. It had sprayed us in self-defense. Very few odors are as nauseating as skunk spray, and we smelled terrible.
Dejectedly, we went home in search of a little parental comfort for our pitiful plight. As we stepped inside the kitchen door, Mom took one sniff and shooed us out into the yard. We were cast out of our home. Then she launched the cleansing process. She burned our clothes. Then, it seemed that every home remedy or concoction in the community was volunteered in our behalf. Among them, we endured a variety of baths: first tomato juice, then cows milk, and even harsh homemade lye soap. But the stench remained. Even my dads powerful aftershave lotion could not overpower the stench. For days we were condemned to eat outside under a tree, sleep outdoors in a tent, and ride in the back of the pickup truck.
After a while, naively thinking the smell was gone, we tried to approach some normal-smelling girls. They would not allow us within yards, shattering our fragile teenage egos!
Now, I must admit that being sprayed by a skunk is not a common consequence of sin. Most consequences are not as immediate or dramatic. But sooner or later, for all sin, a consequence will be paid.
At times, consequences of sin may appear to be very subtle to the sinner. We may even convince ourselves, as we did before approaching the girls, that no one will be able to detect our sins and that they are well concealed. But always to our Heavenly Father and often to spiritually sensitive leaders, parents, and friends, our sins are glaringly apparent.
While attending a youth fireside with Elder Richard G. Scott, I noticed five youths scattered among the congregation whose countenances or body language almost screamed that something was spiritually amiss in their lives. After the meeting, when I mentioned the five youths to Elder Scott, he simply replied, There were eight.
Isaiah prophesied, Their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it (2 Ne. 13:9; see also Isa. 3:9).
God has declared, He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out (D&C 42:28). Just as my cousins and I were cast out of our earthly home as a consequence of our prank, we will be cast out of our Heavenly Fathers home if we do not repent.
When we undertake to cover our sins, as I tried to do with my dads aftershave lotion, the heavens withdraw themselves; [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved (D&C 121:37). We lose our spiritual gifts. The Lord has declared, He that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received (D&C 1:33).
Each one of us has the Light of Christ, or a conscience. It constantly prompts us to choose good. Good choices yield good consequences. On the other hand, delaying repentance and continuing to commit sin is like continuing to kick the skunk. The stench will become stronger with each sin, alienating us further and further from God and those we love. Soon we could become like Laman and Lemuel, who, after continually making bad choices, became past feeling and could no longer feel the still small voice (see 1 Ne. 17:45).
If I had responded to my conscience when it first whispered that the prank was wrong, I would have avoided the whole stinking ordeal.
Through Nephi, the Savior taught that no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever (1 Ne. 10:21).
But our loving Heavenly Father, with a foreknowledge of our frailties, and knowing that you and I would all sin and become unclean, provided a cleansing process from sin thatunlike tomato juice, milk, and lye soapactually does work.
He sent a Savior, His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to atone for our sins (see Alma 22:14).
In the Garden of Gethsemane, as Christ demonstrated perfect obedience, His anguish caused Him, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit (D&C 19:18). Then He allowed Himself to be lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world (1 Ne. 11:33).
He suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him. And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth! (D&C 18:11, 13).
The Savior has indicated how to know if a man repenteth of his sinsbehold, he will confess them and forsake them (D&C 58:43). Then comes the miraculous promise, Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow (Isa. 1:18).
If the Spirit is pricking your heart to correct something in your life, know this: your soul is precious. Heavenly Father wants you to be part of His eternal family.
I lovingly plead, Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance (Alma 34:33). Start the process now. Remove the stench of sin with the remedy of repentance. Then, through the Atonement, the Savior can wash you clean. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
I wonder if there is a direct rebuttal out there.
Smith wasn’t Hubbard, but I am sure he was an inspiration...
Smith inspired many married women to sleep with him.
Oh, how I regret how Satan used me to lead millions astray! If only I had a second chance to change things! FLEE! Before it is too late! Flee the cult of mormonism!
>>Smith inspired many married women to sleep with him. <<
Well, you have to begrudgingly give him a bit of credit. He was an NBA player before the NBA existed...
You need to look here. You are being misled as is obvious by your worn out propaganda.
Heres a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the issues brought up in the anti-Mormon propaganda can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but heres more:
No There is no rebuttal.
Links are such a wimpy way to sidestep the issues at hand.
We have a direct quote. Rebut it or admit it. There is no 3rd way.
A good observation. Joseph Smith certainly was a bad apple. I wonder if God has used him for his glory?
I'll give it a try.
If the Spirit is pricking your heart to correct something in your life, know this: your soul is precious.
While recognizing one's sin and repenting is what Christians do, the above snippet sounds a lot like works righteousness. Translation "you better get your act together or else!" Christ got our act together for us. He is our rightousness
??While recognizing one’s sin and repenting is what Christians do, the above snippet sounds a lot like works righteousness. Translation “you better get your act together or else!” Christ got our act together for us. He is our rightousness<<
And that rebuts the original Smith quote exactly how?
N.B.: I agree with you on your point but it isn’t a rebuttal...
Yes or no - did Joseph Smith have sex with other married women?
>>A good observation. Joseph Smith certainly was a bad apple. I wonder if God has used him for his glory?<<
A bad example is an example nonetheless. I guess a lot of people didn’t understand the message.
We look to Christ.
Mormons look to themselves, just need to try harder.
Are you denying that your religion teaches it's members that they will go on to become gods, have their own planet and make celestial babies?
Are you becoming an apostate?
>>Yes or no - did Joseph Smith have sex with other married women?<<
Badly phrased my friend. The question is was J.S. monogamous? LDS folks just say he was “married” to the targets of his lust.
If you keep quoting facts from the LDS liturgy, he will just run away.
We have seen the “check these links out” gambit (which failed).
Isn’t it interesting that quoting LDS references has the same affect on LDS adherents as quoting muslim quotes has on the followers of the pedophile muhammed (they run away)? Also, isn’t it interesting that smith and muhammed share that pedophile trait?
I've notice that with Mormons. With Christians, they will go off and read up, then come back with some kind of answer. Not Mormons.
I have to wonder if this is really PD or someone filling in for him. Most of PD answers are cut and paste. On occasion, he will reply but usually its the same cut and paste answer.
Also, isnt it interesting that smith and muhammed share that pedophile trait?
Cult leaders always act as if they are above the law.
We have a direct quote. Rebut it or admit it. There is no 3rd way.
Your rebuttal awaits at the links provided. Do you really seek it? Or do you only want to argue? Pick one. There is no 3rd choice.
Good article, PD. Thanks for posting it.
Why do all cults have this thing about sex in the afterlife?
Thanks Logo. I found it to be a good one too.
To entice the schlubs of this world who ain't gettin' any.
Not so. The idea of becoming a god (deification or theosis) has a long and respectable history in Christian thought. Consider what St. Augustine (no Mormon he) wrote on the subject:
It is evident then, that He has called men gods, that are deified of His Grace, not born of His Substance. For He does justify, who is just through His own self, and not of another; and He does deify who is God through Himself, not by the partaking of another. But He that justifies does Himself deify, in that by justifying He does make sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God. ( John 1:12) If we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods: but this is the effect of Grace adopting, not of nature generating. Exposition on Psalm 50 (2)Many other early Christians (none of whom could be considered Mormons) expressed similar ideas. St. Athanasius expressed it concisely:
For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. ( Catechism: 460)
I wold not argue that Augustine, Athanasius, and the other early Christians who wrote about deification understood it exactly as Latter-day Saints do. But I would argue that there is nothing at all sinful to think that one might become a god someday.
Indeed, the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Thought goes so far as to state that deification is "the goal of every Christian":
Deification (Greek Theosis) is for orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God...it is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become God by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both O.T. and N.T. (Psalms 82: (81) .6; 2 Peter 1:4), and it is essentially the teaching both of St. Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (Romans 8:9-17, Galatians 4:5-7) and the fourth gospel (John 17:21-23).
A good summary of deification from the LDS perspective can be found HERE.
If so, he will answer to God for his pride.
On the other hand, perhaps Joseph Smith was simply fulfilling the promise that Jesus made to His disciples:
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:11-14)
>>Your rebuttal awaits at the links provided. Do you really seek it? Or do you only want to argue? Pick one. There is no 3rd choice.<<
Which link rebuts the quote?
I can provide a dozen or more quotes from Shakespeare, Chaucer, Hemingway, Asimov, Heinlein, and Ellison and say “your answer is there somewhere.”
Smith, in #3, is very specific. You have 2 options: you agree or you do not. There is no 3rd option. If the refutation is in the quotes, then state how the quote refutes the original quote in #3. I will even allow that there may be clarification.
But be specific and on point. Or admit you just can’t refute it.
Like most mormon doctrine, the teaching of becoming
a mormon god is perverse and bears no resemblance to
the Christian doctrine of theosis.
Please provide quotes showing Augustine, or Athanasius,
or from the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Thought,
... There is more than ONE GOD (please study the context
of PS 50 before posting that)
... That Gods breed in heaven (like mormon gods)
... That a Christian will become a god and breed to
populate his own planet
... That there is a Heavenly Mother God
It is a common mormon con-job to find unrelated facts,
string them into a necklace, and then claim they support
the mormon heresy.
Under examination, they never do.
It becomes more and more difficult to have respect for those who adhere to the blasphemies in Mormonism. ... And when we post the direct quotes which point out the balsphemies, those whom we used to respect defer to supporting the blasphemies rather than awakening to the truth they reject by defending the blasphemies! This has been quite an education at FR!
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Nowhere in the bible does it say that we will become gods, have our own planet and create celestial babies. If you believe that then you would have to say Jesus is a liar.
Whether we are like angels or be like God, it means we will be in the spirit form, not of the flesh.
Great reply! The Mormons are not looking to scripture but are grasping at anything else that might validate their claims.
I would suggest that you study what we actually say about our doctrines, and not rely on what others may say about us.
On the subject of deification, you might to start with the summary by Millet and Reynolds, Do Latter-day Saints believe that men and women can become gods? It states in part,
This doctrine is generally referred to as deification, and the LDS expression of this doctrine is often misrepresented and misunderstood. Latter-day Saints do not believe that human beings will ever be independent of God, or that they will ever cease to be subordinate to God. They believe that to become as God means to overcome the world through the atonement of Jesus Christ (see 1 John 5:45; Revelation 2:7, 11). Thus the faithful become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ and will inherit all things just as Christ inherits all things (see Romans 8:17; Galatians 4:7; 1 Corinthians 3:2123; Revelation 21:7). They are received into the "church of the firstborn," meaning they inherit as though they were the firstborn (see Hebrews 12:23). There are no limitations on these scriptural declarations; those who become as God shall inherit all things. In that glorified state they will resemble our Savior; they will receive his glory and be one with him and with the Father (see 1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 3:18; John 17:2123; Philippians 3:21).
Are you familiar with the Lorenzo Snow couplet? Your recently departed prophet, Hinckley, played loose with the truth when asked in interviews about it, then taught it to the general council as if he was quite familiar with it. If you do know the couplet, then your above post is purposely deceptive. I don’t want to believe that of you, FRiend. You might want to study more closely the blasphemies your founder and subsequent ‘prophets’ have uttered as dogma of LDS.
I’m sure you know that your founder, Joe Smith, taught that God gained the attributes of godhood by living as a man like us, that after being appointed by a council of gods, the god of Mormonism later added The holy spirit and Jesus to the troika of gods over Earth. Shall I post the quotes which verify this is what your founders have taught as gospel of LDS?
Shawn Kemp and Calvin Murphy combined couldn’t compete with Joseph Smith.
In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
"I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father [Mormons need to see the absolute lie planted here in a long teaching! Joseph MSith was a liar, conman, sexual predator of married women.], you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? ... Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? ... I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the same as His Father had done before. (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 373)
"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on, from generation to generation, ... we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p.132).
"Some people are troubled over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith.... The matter that seems such a mystery is the statement that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man. This is one of the mysteries.... The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp.10, 12).
In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
There is much more, dug right out of your religion's JOurnal of Discourses, the teaching of your religion's leadership. Bob Millett teaches or taught young people about to go on Mormon mission how to deceive and avoid answering the tough questions some might pose which expose the blasphemies at the heart of Mormonism ... and you want to quote his work as instructive of LDS inc? Why not read you own JOurnal of Discourses!
OK. Let's see what Brigham Young had to say.......
The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. (Journal of Discourse, Volume 11, Page 269, 1866) Brigham Young
Adam is God: Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spokenHE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. (Journal of Discourse, Volume 1, Page 50, 1852, and The Millennial Star, Volume 15, Page 769)
Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 "30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." Either you believe Brigham Young or Jesus. You can't have it both ways.
Joseph Smith denies the divinity of God.
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man .it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see .and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3).
The bible warns us of false prophets.
No Other Gospel
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under Gods curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under Gods curse!
“I would suggest that you study what we actually say about our doctrines, and not rely on what others may say about us.”
Sorry Logo. I have and do read what MORMONS say about MORMONISM.
So your premise is wrong. Everything I said stands. Show me the quotes, as I requested, or drop the pretense of mormonism agreeing with Christians.
PS - Is this the same Millet that tells people to avoid the truth and “lie for the Lord?”
You refer in the quote to the mormon heresy of what it means
to “become one” in John 17. As usual, it is just enough truth to sound accurate. It fails to hold up under examination.
The problem for guys like you is that you “enter the room”
with a Giant Curelom following you - a huge assumption - and
then you see it in the room and assume it was always there.
It followed you in boss.
If you start with the Bible, and read the context, you won’t come up with becoming a god, since Christ specifies what He means.
The context is very clear. Here it is...
Jesus prayed first that the Holy God the Father would keep them in Your Name (loyal to God) - the ultimate end of which would be unity among the 12 Apostles Christ was praying for specifically.
In verse 12, Jesus goes on to say to the Father that He (Jesus) had kept them loyal to God while He was with them (with the exception of Judas so that scripture could be fulfilled).
In 17:21, Christ extends his prayer for the 11 remaining Apostles to be extended to all believers with the purpose that the world would know by their mutual love and unity that they are Christs disciples. [dont miss that - it is an explantion of the oneness Christ is praying for the 11 and for all believers for all times].
Verse 22 that speaks again of this oneness is defined more fully in verse 23 as unity and love for each other - just as the Father and Son love each other.
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
blessings to you,
Ok PD "lite", let me ask you a couple of questions so that we understand clearly what your statements mean exactly.
When you state "...what we actually say...", just who, exactly, are you referring to when you say "we"? Who is this "we" you are speaking of? The church, an average mormon, missionaries, who? I just want to know where the goal posts are.
Also, is it your contention/assertion that folks here are not being truthful when they state affirmatively that they have read and studied LdS doctrine when you imply that folks are posting hearsay?
If so, please post examples that prove that point. I'd be really interested in seeing them.
If you cannot, I would suggest that you are implying folks are being untruthful, hence, liars.
Let me inform you up front, I am an apostate ex-mormon who lived the doctrine quite intensely for some years. I did so with pure intent and left of my own accord due to some very conflicting and disturbing revelations about the doctrine, teachings and theology.
Yet mormonism required that man ‘repent’ (mormon definition - cease all sin) of their sin BEFORE the grace offered by Jesus’ death can be put to effect. Mormonism requires man to become perfect by their own works before Jesus can save them.
Look it up in your ‘references’ PD. If man can do it on his own - there was no need for Jesus to die.
Take to heart the fact that games is all they have. Pretty much answers the question. Anyone with an answer that they are proud of and can support will always give it willingly.
Oh, I promise He has and in wonderful ways. Talk to these folks who used to be caught up in it and escaped by God's grace. There are others, many others.
So if I ask to look like Jennifer Aniston, I'm in, eh? That's a much less ambitious plea than to ask to be a god.
It seems your argument is with the Bible, not with me.
We have a good God.
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