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Paul, Timothy and the End Times
BibleProphecyBlog.com ^ | March 27, 2011 | Jack Kelley

Posted on 03/28/2011 3:36:19 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta

Paul’s letters to Timothy are the instructions from a mentor to a young pastor, one of the first ever, and contain advice on what to do and how to do it, as well as what not to do. It’s the kind of thing you’d expect given the relationship.

But for no apparent reason Paul tucked several warnings about the end times into various places in his instructions. These are things Paul knew Timothy wouldn’t have to deal with because he clearly described them as characteristics of the Latter Days. We’ll take them each in turn.

1 Timothy 4:1-2

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

When I read this one I always think of certain televangelists who espouse a perversion of the prosperity gospel. They know what they’re teaching is a compilation of half truths and outright lies, so in effect they’re twisting God’s word to steal from their followers. And without the least bit of shame they enjoy the lifestyles of the rich and famous at the expense of their contributors who, according to some reports, come primarily from the bottom 25% of the economic scale.

Taking advantage of their followers’ lack of Bible knowledge and misguided desire for a more abundant life , these predators foist one get rich quick scheme after another on their desperate flocks, bilking them out of the few discretionary dollars they have and leaving them worse off in the bargain. And they do it in the name of God. It makes you wonder what He’ll say to them come judgment time.

But the prosperity teachers aren’t the only ones in this category. There are others who teach things they know are contrary to what the Bible says. Some of these things come under the heading of conditional salvation, grace plus works, partial rapture, and other false teaching that can steal the joy of your salvation and rob you of your certainty. Their objective is to imprison you within boundaries of rules they themselves can’t follow. Read Colossians 2:8-23 for Paul’s opinion on these modern day legalists.

Then there are those who either treat the prophecies of our time as if they were already accomplished in history, or as if they’re never going to be accomplished because they’re all allegorical. These teachers also know what they’re saying can’t be reconciled with Scripture, but they ask you to believe it anyway, trusting in their superior intellect or advanced education instead of your own common sense. They take passages that can be clearly understood just as they’re written by anyone with an average intellect and make them hopelessly confusing by violating the rules of context, re-defining terms, and making that which is real into something symbolic.

2 Timothy 3:1-5

But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God – having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

Just as you become convinced that Paul is describing the unbelieving world in our time and are vigorously nodding your head in agreement, he says that these people have a form of godliness but deny its power. Then you realize he was writing about those believers in name only, who spend 6½ days each week living lives indistinguishable from unbelievers, grabbing all they can get from our material world by any means necessary while contributing little or nothing to the work of the Kingdom. These people lead two lives, the one they’re serious about, and the one that’s just for show. Guess which is which.

Paul was not blind to the behavior of these people, nor was this the only time he warned us to stay away from them. Listen to what he told the Corinthians.

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. (1 Cor. 5:9-11).

Notice he said “anyone who calls himself a brother” instead of “anyone who is a brother.” I think he was doubting that someone who behaves in this manner could have been saved in the first place.

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Here the focus is on the emerging church movement in all its various forms. In business schools, students learn to develop strategies based on a driving force. One such driving force is the market. A market driven strategy requires the business enterprise to focus on what they perceive to be the wants and needs of their target customers and adapt themselves to meet these needs in a more effective way.

Correctly predicting the growing demand for a religious organization that could meet the needs of a self centered, self sufficient generation, the leaders of the emerging church movement developed such a strategy. They took the focus off God and put it on the congregation. Entertainment replaced worship, philosophy replaced theology, and good works replaced victorious living.

Borrowing a phrase from Dominion Theology they began calling it “bringing Heaven to Earth” to make it sound more appealing to their idealistic target market. Little do their followers realize that for believers, these good works will be burned up in the fire (1 Cor. 3:14-15), and for unbelievers they’ll be woefully insufficient for entry into the kingdom (John 3:3). God has His own strategy for bringing Heaven to Earth and it doesn’t include the emerging church. Commenting on their works in his letter to Laodicea, Jesus said,

“I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm — neither hot nor cold — I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” (Rev. 3:15-16)

They’re excited about the great entertainment, the stimulating talk, and the good works, but not about the Lord.

Irrespective of that, both the seats and the coffers soon filled, signs that their market driven strategy was working, and for many the emerging church was soon the place to be. This was especially true for those who had become bored with traditional Church and wanted a place where they could feel good and do good with no messages about sin and salvation to convict them. The gospel was not missed in its absence.

Besides, “All of our attempts to define the right form of the Gospel are just human interpretations,” the movement’s leaders claim. “We must avoid a naive or excessive confidence in any telling of the Gospel story, since no articulation of the gospel today can presume to be exactly identical to the original meaning Christ and the apostles proclaimed.” In a sense, they’re saying since its impossible to know what the Gospel story really is we shouldn’t put too much faith in it.

Learning about the rapidly approaching End Times and the need to be ready for it has also been skipped. Instead, the “excessive” study of prophecy is called a distraction from the real work of the Church. These things were done by design, since the goal is to have non-believers make up at least half of the congregation. The market is much bigger that way and the non-believers help move the believers away from theological absolutes, like the need to be born again and the importance of prophecy.

In the next verse of His letter Jesus offered additional criticism.

"You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.” (Rev. 3:17)

His letter to the Church in Laodicea contains no commendation for their works and offers no escape from the end times judgments, just a plea to be allowed back into their midst (Rev. 3:20).

But Wait There’s More

Over fourteen years earlier in his second letter to the Thessalonians Paul had first warned us about the apostasy of the latter days, calling it one of the signs that would mark the end of the age. In 2 Thes. 2:1 Paul began to address their questions about two events, the (2nd) coming of our Lord, and our being gathered to Him (the rapture). He was responding to information they had received saying the day of the Lord had already come. He told them not to worry because several things had to happen first.

Paul didn’t go into things like the regathering of Israel, the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, or the building of a Temple. Israel had not been dispersed yet, and the Second Temple was still standing. He focused on events that are more gentile in nature.

A careful reading of 2 Thes. 2:3-8 shows the order in which he said these things would take place. He said the apostasy would happen first (verse 3), then the rapture of the Church when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (verse 7), and finally the revealing of the anti-Christ followed by the 2nd Coming (verse 8). (If you don’t read this passage carefully, you could become confused by Paul’s mention of the anti-Christ in verses 3-4. But verse 8 clearly places the official unveiling of the anti-Christ after the removal of the Holy Spirit.) Even a casual observation shows that we’re well into the time of the first sign.

What should be our reaction to this? First is to remember that God’s Word said this would happen so there’s no point in bemoaning the fact that it’s happening. Instead we should be encouraged to know the end of the Age is getting closer. Jesus said the true Church would become weaker and less influential as the end approaches (Rev. 3:8). As the world moves further and further from God, those of us who follow Him will naturally feel less comfortable and be less welcome here.

If you live in the United States, stop confusing your country with your church. No believer outside the US makes this mistake, and the fact is the Church has neither a home nor a land on Earth. Our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20) and we look for a city whose architect and builder is God (Hebr. 11:10).

No matter where we live in the world we have to remember that we’re aliens here and our visit is about over. Soon we’ll be going home where we belong.

In the mean time we have to stop depending on organized religion to meet our needs. In some places the Church is being forced underground. In others we’re going willingly. But either way the gulf between religion and the Church is growing wider by the day.

If you can’t find a God worshiping, Bible teaching church where you live, don’t settle for what you can get. Gather a small group of like minded believers and worship at home. Paul and Timothy didn’t have a huge bureaucracy behind them. They didn’t have million dollar buildings or professionally designed programs. They didn’t even have the New Testament. Yet they found a way to worship God, and to help others do the same.

Stop supporting groups who are trying to bring Heaven to Earth and start sending your treasure to Heaven. I could tell you stories all day long about what God can do with a hand full of people He can trust. Ask the Lord to identify a need for you to meet in His name and then work in His strength to meet it. Apart from Him nothing you do has any value to the Kingdom (John 15:5).

Dig into prophecy. It’s the single biggest topic in the Bible and more is written about our life and times than any other period in history. Know what you believe and why you believe it.

Do these things and you can make the time we have left the most rewarding and enjoyable time you’ve ever known. You can almost hear the Footsteps Of The Messiah.


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To: Cronos; swarthyguy; Shermy
Sarcasm explained is sarcasm destroyed.

Ciao. I must now return to my Sanskrit class.

51 posted on 03/30/2011 8:47:42 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (America can survive a fool as President. It cannot survive the fools who would vote for him.)
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To: Cronos

Cronos....again you need to get current. Though your historical posts are interesting reads...that is not the now happening with the leadership in Religious Circles of Mainline Religions. It’s obvious you may not want to see these happenings....but reality is just that non-the-less.

It would be better and more helpful were you to use your Historical knowledge along with observing these happenings and movements, and give an assessment of how you see these could be played out in the future and the possiblities.

You did just that in Libya and it was most interesting and informative.


52 posted on 03/30/2011 8:56:58 AM PDT by caww
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To: Cronos
Have you ever met any Indians that you comment? No --> your statements are utterly wrong.

Yes indeed I have. That is all you need to know. Further I know enough of the Hindu belief system to recognize it for what it is...as well the impact on the people who practice it's rituals.

Fruther the difference in their various Gods they worship is of no importance to me as they all are rooted in paganism no matter which banner they might march under.

I am well aware of the killings and the opposition Muslims and Hindus have between them...but as I have stated...regardless of this there is a push to bridge that gap on both sides as some of the links I've posted clearly show.

Christianity and Islam will never unite either, but you can be sure those who lay claim to both these faiths from a secular perspective, and the vast majority of increasing, are now indeed reaching across their perspective isles and embracing. So also is this occuring between Muslims and Hindus....also increasingly so.

53 posted on 03/30/2011 9:07:34 AM PDT by caww
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Oh, so this thread isn’t about Ron Paul and TPaw?

;-)


54 posted on 03/30/2011 9:09:03 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Kenny Bunk; Cronos; caww; Shermy; Fred Nerks
Sarcasm, you say, why....

Yeah OK I get it, sarcasm, keep the infidels off guard, hehehe.

Now even the Chinese are in on it. Atheistic Confucianistic Gastronomica with a Saffron Tinge.

Chinese food, Indian Twist - See, it's older than you think, even Chubby Checker BhaiSahib was in on it. And let's not even mention Sammy Davis.

And as for your Sanskrit session, Ken, (But you know the frequency), I'll throw you a Latin Shloka -
Omni Domni De Dum PappaDum Chutnium Dum

55 posted on 03/30/2011 1:01:14 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes! Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -America is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: caww; swarthyguy; Kenny Bunk; Outlaw Woman
Further I know enough of the Hindu belief system to recognize it for what it is..

Ok, then explain:

  1. What you know of the Hindu belief system -- you do realise that it is not one belief system, if you say you know it

  2. Do you know the difference between Shiva and Vishnu?

  3. Have you ever heard of the 1993 Indian riots?

  4. Have you ever heard of Malegaon?

  5. Have you ever heard of the Gujarat riots? Do you know what this was about?

  6. Have you ever heard of the VHP, the BJP, the Bajrang Dal etc?

I'm sorry, but your statements are quite incorrect. Go on the ground or even read about the utter incompatibility between Hinduism and Islam.

Read about the current distrust and hate between the communities, not about the platitudes for peace

Your links are no more than statements from the press trying to assuage communal riots -- which is a real factor of life in India.

Why go so far, visit Bombay and see how many Hindus stay in Moslem dominated areas or vice-versa. See Delhi and the ostracism is worse. On the contrary you will find Christians, Zoroastrians even Jews living among Hindus and vice-versa

This proves that the differences are beyond merely religious but step down practically to blood.

56 posted on 03/30/2011 11:50:35 PM PDT by Cronos (Christians&OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God:Our's is love, theirs predestines ppl 2eternal tormen)
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To: Cronos

You are still overlooking my point Cronos...and it doesn’t take feet on the ground to see that. I have not been stating that the Muslims and Hindus are in bed with each other...that will of course not happen. I have stated they are attempting to bridge the gaps amongst each other.....and they are doing just that.

I have purposely not gotten into a discussion with you about what I do or not know. We all know what that would entail...and endless posting of various sites and articles which only muddies the water.

It is not hard Cronos to see the world is attempting to unite the mainline religions....heck even the Palistinians and Israel remain in negotiations and there is no greater hatred expressed than that of Muslims toward Israel...and yet the leaders continue with dialogue.

Why you continue to state that Muslims and Hindus are excempt from ever tolerating one another flys in the face of those who are making attempts to do just that.

There is always going to be conflict Cronos....even here in the USA.....and yet people work together to change that....so too are world leaders among the religions...and they will unite under a one world religion though it won’t look like what we see now.

The World council of churches is made up of many differing faiths and yet under one roof....it will be similar to this Cronos...I don’t understand why it is so hard for you to get?


57 posted on 03/31/2011 12:05:27 AM PDT by caww
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To: caww; Cronos; swarthyguy; Shermy; Outlaw Woman
Theology aside, which is where it is the WCC, it's a very bad idea to use this organization as a model for anything.

It was/is a Communist Front Organization.

58 posted on 03/31/2011 12:34:14 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (You can't have a Boehner with no balls. Sack the sac-less SOB now!)
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To: caww
It does take feet on the ground and understanding or even basic reading of Moslem dogmas and various Hindu religions dogmas to understand that they cannot bridge the gaps

Hinduism - Polytheistic mainly, Islam - rigidly monotheistic

Hinduism - localisation (primarily Bharatha/india), Islam - global

and many others

I repeat -- you had said that Hinduism would join with Islam. That cannot happen.

Also "tolerating each other" neglects the very facts that are both historical and present. In no place does this truly happen despite the well-meaning efforts of the peace-lovers.

I ask you to read the link Fred Nerks gave you to understand the differences. I don’t understand why it is so hard for you to get? --> because, dear caww, I KNOW this, I KNOW that there is far more difference between Hinduism and Islam/Christianity/Judaism than between any of the various groups in the WCC. I ask that you read the Gita and compare it to the Koran to see some of the differences

59 posted on 03/31/2011 4:31:21 AM PDT by Cronos (Christians&OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God:Our's is love, theirs predestines ppl 2eternal tormen)
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To: caww
I remind you, caww that this All three are getting very chummy with Islam is what I dispute. Mormonism or Calvinism and Islam have similarities, but definitely not Hinduism.
60 posted on 03/31/2011 4:50:02 AM PDT by Cronos (Christians&OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God:Our's is love, theirs predestines ppl 2eternal tormen)
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To: Cronos
All three are getting very chummy with Islam is what I dispute

Dispute this all you want Cronos...but they are and will continue to bridge the gaps between then in order to become untied within a One World Religion.

61 posted on 03/31/2011 8:41:59 AM PDT by caww
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To: Cronos
All three are getting very chummy with Islam is what I dispute

Dispute this all you want Cronos...but they are and will continue to bridge the gaps between then in order to become united within a One World Religion.

62 posted on 03/31/2011 8:42:44 AM PDT by caww
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To: Cronos

Cronos, you wrongly assume I am not aware of the differences among these religions and their practices....but I digress as we are going round and round as is the custom here.

I will maintain that the merging of the mainline religions will indeed occur in time... and that this push to do so is present and happening at this time. It makes no difference if one thinks it possible or not. Some things are simply marked to happen and this is one of them.


63 posted on 03/31/2011 8:47:25 AM PDT by caww
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To: Kenny Bunk

Well of course it can be used as an example...our world is fast becoming more and more secular...with a religious front to appeal to the masses. Communism has done this all along...Hitler comes to mind when he claimed to be Catholic...one can indeed claim what they will as we see even in this day, and still not be a true believer in what they profess.

When a one world religious entity does finally represent the religious world, as a whole,...it will not truly be religious...but the picture presented to the world will be just that. .... the world is ripe to be deceived.


64 posted on 03/31/2011 8:53:12 AM PDT by caww
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

” careful reading of 2 Thes. 2:3-8 shows the order in which he said these things would take place. He said the apostasy would happen first (verse 3), then the rapture of the Church when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (verse 7), and finally the revealing of the anti-Christ followed by the 2nd Coming (verse 8). (If you don’t read this passage carefully, you could become confused by Paul’s mention of the anti-Christ in verses 3-4. But verse 8 clearly places the official unveiling of the anti-Christ after the removal of the Holy Spirit.)”

The taking of the “Restrainer” out of the way is not necessairly the rapture of the Church or else I think Paul would have used plainer language(ie “when the present saints, not having given way to the great apostacy are caught up, then the son of perdition arises”). Another words there is a specific force or entity that keeps the AC system in check and it has been in place for awhile. Revelation speaks of the multitudes of Saints killed because of the machinations of the Antichrist sytem(Beast, false prophet false image). My reading of this same passage suggests to me that things start really popping after the AC arises, then at some point a rapture occurs in the midst of everything(Gods great harvest of souls followed by God’s great harvest of wrath as juxtaposed in Revelation).

Still, the “Restrainer” may yet be the “church” and its spirit filled members as you describe who act as this restraining force. I read the Thessalonian passages plainly but I’m still struck with several possible explanations based on other passages I have read in the Bible. The Bible in other places mentions a ‘catching up”, at some point of buried resurrected believers first then those believers who are living “and remain”. We will “not all sleep but we will all be changed, in a moment in a twinking of an eye...at the last trumpet”. Could the “last trumpet” refer to the “last trumpet” sounding in Revelation? I don’t know. Some have suggested the church leaves when the “two witnesses” who had been dead for 3 days suddenly are resurrected and we all go to heaven together.

Still, the Bible does admonish us to study prophecy, specifically the “words in this book(Revelation) and do them”. We don’t know the hour of HIS coming but we certainly can know the “season” or times of HIS coming.


65 posted on 03/31/2011 9:22:37 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: caww; swarthyguy; Cronos; Shermy
May the inexorable flow of faultless cosmic logic lead you on your hegira 'round Robin Hood's Barn.
In the name of Unity.
Amen and Inshallah.
66 posted on 03/31/2011 9:25:43 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (You can't have a Boehner with no balls. Sack the sac-less SOB now!)
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To: Kenny Bunk; Shermy; Cronos; caww

So, these three hijras decide to go on the hegira.......


67 posted on 03/31/2011 12:03:42 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes! Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -America is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: Cronos

Hinduism - Yes to cleavage.

Islam - Not even yer eyebrows, mama!


68 posted on 03/31/2011 12:05:44 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes! Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -America is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Certainly you are finding this thread as a playground for your amuzement. But just as your homepage depicts...

“I have joined that growing number who are simply no longer focused”......” my ever-diminishing wits aren’t much noticed here.”

So too it follows you here.


69 posted on 03/31/2011 12:18:07 PM PDT by caww
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To: swarthyguy

Please remove me from your ping list...not interested...thank you.


70 posted on 03/31/2011 12:30:04 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww

Fine, be that way, take your ball and go home.


71 posted on 03/31/2011 12:43:10 PM PDT by swarthyguy (KIDS! Deficit, Debt,Taxes! Pfft Lookit the bright side of our legacy -America is almost SmokFrei!)
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To: caww

Hey, no fair looking at my homepage! (Even if every word on it is as true as I can remember.)

But I forgive you and actually wish you well on your quest.


72 posted on 03/31/2011 12:44:55 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk (Boehner with no cojones? How's that gonna work?)
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To: mdmathis6
The "Restrainer", or Holy Spirit, must be removed before the Antichrist can make his appearance. And since every true believer in Christ in indwelt by the Holy Spirit, this is when the Church is removed as well. The Holy Spirit is not going to leave without those who "house" Him, so to speak.

From The Popular Encylopedia of Bible Prophecy:

CLUES FROM THE GREEK

A closer look at the 2 Thesasalonians 2 passage will help answer the question of the identity of the one who restrains. In 2:6 the Greek text is best translated, "and the thing now holding (him) down (or restraining him) you know, so that he (is) to be revealed in his own time". Verse 7 says, "For the mystery of this lawlessness is already working only until the one now holding (him) down (or restraining him) shall get out of the way". The Greek word katecho is a compound word formed from kata (down) and echo (to have, or to hold). From this comes the thought "to hold down or to restrain". Katchecho can have the meaning "to hold back from action, to keep under control, to deprive of physical liberty, as by shackling, or arresting a criminal". The restrainer then is preventing the Antichrist from breaking out until his appointed time, which would be during or just before the beginning of the Tribulation.

In verse 6, to katcheon is a neuter present participle, being translated "the thing now holding (him) down (or restraining him)", though in verse 7 the masculine present participle is used, ho katchoen, and should be translated "the one now holding (him) down (or restraining him). This grammatical difference would certainly exclude the church because church is a feminine word in Greek. Some think the neuter gender in verse 6 refers to the Roman Empire, and the masculine in verse 7 has to do with the Roman emperor. But this view is not plausible. The word "spirit" (pneuma) is in the neuter gender, but when referring to the Holy Spirit, the New Testament uses the masculine pronoun. John 14:26 calls the Spirit whom the Father will send in the name of Jesus the paraclete (the one called alongside, the counselor). Paraclete is a masculine noun, but Spirit is a neuter noun. "The purposeful change in grammar emphasizes the personality of the Holy Spirit. There would be no reason to change from the neuter to the masculine unless the Spirit was understood to be a person." (Enns, p. 149)

THE EVIDENCE OF THE SCRIPTURES

The point of the 2 Thessalonians 1 passage seems clear. The man of sin, the Antichrist, cannot come forth until this restraining power gets out of the way. By divine providence, and by all the evidence of the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit characteristically restrains and strives against sin (Genesis 6:3). The Spirit presently abides in the world in a special way in this age through the Church.

One objection to naming the Holy Spirit as the restrainer has to do with the phrase at the end of 2 Thessalonians 2:7 - "until he is taken out of the way". Many argue that taking away or removing the Spirit of God seems to be an awkward interpretation. But is this what the passage is saying? The Greek word translated "taken" is genetai and is an aorist middle subjunctive from ginomai , a deponent verb. Such verbs appear in the middle or passive form but are still translated as active, meaning the subject (which, in this case, is the restrainer) is doing the action. "The deponent verb does not denote removal by an outside force but rather a voluntary act on the part of the restrainer" (Hiebert, p. 207). "To be taken out of the way" should better read "to get out of the way" (Lenski, p. 421). The Holy Spirit is going to move out of the way. He is not going to be taken out of the way.

While it is probably correct to say the restrainer moves aside at the time of the Rapture of the Church so that "in his time (the Antichrist) may be revealed" (2 Thessalonians 1:6), the Holy Spirit will still continue the work on earth of bringing people to salvation. While the Church is here, He is active as the power working within the lives of believers.

Revelation speaks of the multitudes of Saints killed because of the machinations of the Antichrist sytem(Beast, false prophet false image). My reading of this same passage suggests to me that things start really popping after the AC arises, then at some point a rapture occurs in the midst of everything(Gods great harvest of souls followed by God’s great harvest of wrath as juxtaposed in Revelation).

There will be people left on earth after the Rapture, because they were not saved, who are saved during the Tribulation. These are the "saints" who will be killed by the Antichrist because they refuse to take his mark. These are not Church-age Christians who are removed from the scene prior to the Tribulation.

The Scripture is clear that the Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, when Jesus removes His Bride (those people, both dead and alive, from the entirety of the Age of Grace, who have accepted Christ as Savior) from the scene before He sends judgment. But it also clear that multitudes will come to salvation in Christ during the Tribulation. and those are the people whom the Antichrist will kill.

And yes, we can certainly know the season of His coming. And that season has officially arrived.

73 posted on 03/31/2011 3:47:45 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
I totally agree with your post. Although in one area, my understanding is that the 'he' spoken of 2 Thess. is the Church the Body of Christ, the ONE NEW MAN that Paul speaks of. Hence, the word "he" in the removing before the Antichrist is revealed. Paul did speak of the Body of Christ in the masculine. And the Body of Christ is indeed holding back the wrath of God, in that we are now ambassadors for Christ, calling all men to be reconciled to God through the finished work of Christ.

Either way, we will not be going through the tribulation. We are promised to be kept from God's wrath upon this world.

74 posted on 03/31/2011 4:00:18 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: caww
I'm not disputing -- I'm giving you facts.

And the facts are that Islam and Hinduism are incompatible.

The facts are that they are also not getting together, no matter if you clip some random "let's all live together in peace" -- the number of communal riots in India show that peacenik or chummy attitude to be a lie

The facts are also that most Hindus have in fact hardened their attitude against Islam since 1993 (do you know the significance of that year or the significance of 6 Dec? If not, then you do not know anything about Hindu-Moslem relations in India now)

75 posted on 03/31/2011 10:59:10 PM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: Cronos

Cronos...just give it up...we are not communicating...and you missed my point along ways back...but if it makes you feel better posting the same things over again..by all means continue..but I will not be responding when we are simply not communicating.


76 posted on 03/31/2011 11:04:31 PM PDT by caww
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To: caww
no, we are not communicating because you have a false idea stuck in your head of a one-world religion being a syncretism of Christianity-Islam-Hinduism

This shows the lack of knowledge about any of these.

77 posted on 03/31/2011 11:08:33 PM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: Cronos

Cronos that is not something stuck in my head...and I did ‘not’ say ‘Christianity’ would be included...

....I said Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, and Mormonism. All of which are part of the push for a one world religious system, and each will be a part of that in due time.


78 posted on 03/31/2011 11:17:56 PM PDT by caww
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

The last few paragraphs contain some excellent advice. Christians would do well to heed these things.


79 posted on 03/31/2011 11:29:06 PM PDT by Rocky (REPEAL IT!)
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To: caww

Catholicism is, along with orthodoxy, lutheranism, anglicanism, baptists, oriental churchs etc. part of Christianity.


80 posted on 03/31/2011 11:59:33 PM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: caww
Now the important question is -- does your particular branch of Christianity believe in what is encapsulated in the Nicene Creed? This outlines Christian belief and is what CAtholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Copts, Armenians, Syrians, Asyrians etc. believe in -- if your statment considers any one of us to be not Christian then quite frankly your statment seem to be in the mistaken belief that 95-98% of Christianity is not Christian --> which is as absurd as when your post made false allegations about Hindusim

I repeat -- you need to actually read a bit before making incorrect statements or rather, repeating them

81 posted on 04/01/2011 12:03:05 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: caww
Let's repeat your posts howlers:

1. Claiming that hinduism will get chummy with Islam

2. posting links to Indian newspapers talking about preventing communal riots

3. utter lack of any knowledge of the significance of December 6th on the Indian communal landscapre

4. Utter lack of any knowledge on the current or past natures of Hindu-Moslem relationship

5. Utter lack of any knowledge of the beliefs of Hinduism or Islam besides what's in the MSM or some pastor's website -->have you ever read the Gita or Mahabharatha or even glanced at the Haditsh or Koran?

5. Utter lack of any knowledge at all on the irrevocable differences between a Polytheistic religion and a rigidly monotheistic one

and I could go on and on, but you get the point -- do read a little before repeating false statements

82 posted on 04/01/2011 12:06:56 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: caww
For you Islam and Protestantism
Whilst the very title of “Protestantism” depicts its genesis as a reactive movement, it is the case that strong protests against the Christian doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation form part of the Koran and so of Islamic faith. It is also noteworthy that Luther issued his own translation of the Koran in 1542, along with a confutation of its soteriology—the key point of Islamic and protestant divergence.....

Protestantism was a move closer to the Islamic view of Scriptural authority. The traditional Christian view is that Christ founded the Church which wrote the Scriptures, ratified them and gains constant nourishment from them. Their definitive meaning derives from the same Church which produced them. Luther’s view that Scripture is the only guide to faith and practice is similar to the Islamic view of the Koran


83 posted on 04/01/2011 2:06:21 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: Cronos

Cronos... You’ve gone too far by continuing your rants...and missing the point...reconstructing what I’ve stated is not communicating. I thought better of you..that’s changed now....so we’re done here.


84 posted on 04/01/2011 4:16:23 AM PDT by caww
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Revelation speaks of the AC system being allowed to “wear down the saints” either directly and or by limiting their voice and influence upon men . But it is part of God’s plan. I don’t think the Holy Spirit would necessarily abandon Christians ( not leaving them absolutely powerless to stand against the system so that they lose faith) while taking away the restraints upon the AC system since as scripture says...”Greater is HE that is in you than he that is in the World”.
Now, at some point in all this conflagration,Christ catches up Christians dead and alive. I think the timing of events remains vague due to God alone desiring to keep that knowledge close to his vest. I accept Thessalonians as I accept other passages from Matthew, Revelation, the OT concerning the “end times”. Doing a general survey of all these passages, suggests a more complex series of events and timings then what traditional eschatology has ever revealed. You have to include passages that sort of “stick out” and would color what the traditional evangelical eschatology has always touted. Yet don’t mistake that view for a general disagreement with that eschatology on my part. There will be a catching up....there will be a horrible tribulation “such as never occured or will since” as Christ said....and Christ himself will rule out of Jerusalem. Hallelujah!

So if present believing Christians are caught up before all the major stuff occurs...well bonus! If we have to go thru a refining thru general persecution, well then Praise God who “ is able to make us stand...and above all to stand!”


85 posted on 04/01/2011 4:19:16 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: caww

As I keep repeating — your facts are wrong, utterly. Secondly the conclusions you have drawn from these wrong facts are, of course, wrong.


86 posted on 04/01/2011 4:25:16 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: caww

And note, I stick to the truth and to facts. I would urge you to read a bit instead of the conspiracy theories. Catholicism is Christianity and Catholicism will not be “chummy” with Islam, not when we’ve been fighting it for 1400 years and even now Catholics are on the forefronts of the war with islam in Iraq (who do you think the Chaldean Catholics are?) and Lebanon (Maronite Catholics) —> which members of your group are in this war? I would wager none.


87 posted on 04/01/2011 4:30:48 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: caww

Also, your note about Hinduism as I’ve pointed out shows your utter lack of knowledge on Hinduism doctrines, on it’s past, on the present state of indian communal tensions or politics and on the regular feelings of Indians. This is tied in to the lack of knowledge in your posts on Catholicism — I strongly urge you to read, to travel to experience before commenting on things which you do not have any idea about.


88 posted on 04/01/2011 4:32:32 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: Cronos

Hillary was methodist.


89 posted on 04/01/2011 4:33:37 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: Cronos

Hitler hailed from a Catholic background(thought of becoming a priest), many mobsters loved their Virgin Mary!

My point is bad people often use religious fig leaves to cover themselves....no matter what faith!


90 posted on 04/01/2011 4:38:03 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: mdmathis6
I did not know that. But I'm pretty sure Hillary and Bill are as Methodist and Baptist as Teddy Kennedy and Pelosi are Catholic ;)

We all have our loons and I would never parade Bill or Carter as "examples" of the Southern Baptists, far less as proof of the SBC's teachings.

91 posted on 04/01/2011 4:38:07 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: mdmathis6
My point is bad people often use religious fig leaves to cover themselves....no matter what faith!

Good point, as I indicated above, every group has it's own.,

92 posted on 04/01/2011 4:39:23 AM PDT by Cronos (The OPC/PCA don’t worship the same God we Christians do:)
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To: mdmathis6
Now, at some point in all this conflagration,Christ catches up Christians dead and alive. I think the timing of events remains vague due to God alone desiring to keep that knowledge close to his vest.

Well, there are too many Scriptures which promise that Christ takes His Church-age Bride off the scene before He sends judgment, and none that indicate that Church-age believers will go through the seven-year Tribulation. We don't know the day or the hour that Christ will return for His Church, but we will know the season and we will know when, as God puts it, it is "at the door".

Doing a general survey of all these passages, suggests a more complex series of events and timings then what traditional eschatology has ever revealed. You have to include passages that sort of “stick out” and would color what the traditional evangelical eschatology has always touted.

Do you have some examples?

If we have to go thru a refining thru general persecution, well then Praise God who “ is able to make us stand...and above all to stand!”

Our sin debt has already been paid by Christ, our "refining" has been done throughout our lives through sanctification, and there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that tells Church-age Christians to prepare to go through the Tribulation, or how to survive that time, or how to escape the Antichrist - nothing. We are reassured on multiple occasions throughout the Bible that we are not destined for God's wrath but will be taken out of the time of judgment that Jesus sends on the world.

93 posted on 04/01/2011 3:52:30 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: smvoice
I can see what you're saying about the body of Christ, but the passage says that the person "restrains" the Antichrist from coming to power, and after He takes Himself out of the way, then Satan's guy can come on the scene. What is being restrained is the Antichrist, not the wrath of God.

There is no one on earth, aside from God Himself, who has the power to restrain Satan and evil. The Antichrist can't make his appearance until the Holy Spirit removes the Church in which He dwells, and His ministry of restraining evil, from the earth.

94 posted on 04/01/2011 3:58:35 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Matthew speaks of a gathering of believers in such a fashion that the general world sees it and “mourns”. They also note the “sign of the coming of the Son of Man” being placed in the skies. Christ spoke as coming at a time “such as was the days of Noah, for folks were buying and selling, marrying and divorcing, eating and drinking” which would denote an era of relative prosperity and a false peace, though reading about the days of Noah one is also confronted with a world filled with exceptional sin and violence as well as inteference from the Nephilim(Quix can give some good info here).

Thessalonians speaks a removal of a “restrainer” but Revelation speaks of multitudes being martyred for their faith and for refusing to take the mark of the beast “or to worship his image”, which means either a bunch of folks are saved after the rapture, or the rapture doesn’t occur when we all thought it might. I can tell you a lot of preachers don’t go for the “folks being saved after the rapture business”...yet there you are...folks being killed by the Beast,False prophet, Beast Image, worship system after the church was supposedly raptured up before the antichrist takes power scenario.

Reading the whole passage of 2Thessalonians 2 then examining verse 13 thru the end in relation to the first 12 verses suggests that believers hold fast and ‘stand firm’ in the faith in relation to the first 12 verses(reading contextually and not lifting anything out). The previous passages speak of “one who is restraining” who is taken out of the way, then the lawless one is revealed then Christ comes and destroys him.


95 posted on 04/01/2011 10:15:21 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Applied Christianity;a study in spiritual fiber optics connecting God's love to man!)
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To: mdmathis6
Matthew speaks of a gathering of believers in such a fashion that the general world sees it and “mourns”

Right. When Jesus physically, literally returns to earth after the seven-year Tribulation, He brings the believers with Him who had been raptured seven years before. The world mourns because they know that everything is over, and the One who they despised and blasphemed has arrived to reclaim His creation and the ending to that fact is not good for them at all.

Those left on earth after the rapture will mourn Christ's return to earth.

Christ spoke as coming at a time “such as was the days of Noah, for folks were buying and selling, marrying and divorcing, eating and drinking” which would denote an era of relative prosperity and a false peace, though reading about the days of Noah one is also confronted with a world filled with exceptional sin and violence as well as inteference from the Nephilim(Quix can give some good info here).

The days of Noah" also refer to the fact that people will be living as if nothing is changing in the world and they will ignore and ridicule the warnings that there is a judgment coming. I have also read that the Babylonian Talmud records that there were homosexual marriages occurring in the time of Noah.

Our generation is exactly like that of Noah's.

Thessalonians speaks a removal of a “restrainer” but Revelation speaks of multitudes being martyred for their faith and for refusing to take the mark of the beast “or to worship his image”, which means either a bunch of folks are saved after the rapture, or the rapture doesn’t occur when we all thought it might. I can tell you a lot of preachers don’t go for the “folks being saved after the rapture business”...yet there you are...folks being killed by the Beast,False prophet, Beast Image, worship system after the church was supposedly raptured up before the antichrist takes power scenario.

That's right - many "preachers" don't go for the "folks being saved after the rapture business" because they don't know Scripture and certainly don't preach it. The Bible clearly states that there will be 144,000 Jews who know Christ as Savior who go throughout the world and preach the Gospel during the Tribulation, and the Bible clearly states that there will be multitudes saved after the Rapture and many of those will be beheaded by the Antichrist.

Many "preachers" substitute their own opinions for Scripture and attempt to equate the two. This is why so many people who sit in church pulpits every Sunday are so abysmally ignorant about the 25% of Scripture that is prophetic. The fact that there are "preachers" who don't preach the Bible is simply more evidence of the end-time apostasy of the Church and just goes to show, once again, that the word of God is inerrant and absolute truth.

As for me, I will stick with the promises Jesus Christ made to get His Bride off the scene before He judges the world for seven years. And until someone can provide the Scripture that contradicts that, I'm going to go with what God said about it.

Reading the whole passage of 2Thessalonians 2 then examining verse 13 thru the end in relation to the first 12 verses suggests that believers hold fast and ‘stand firm’ in the faith in relation to the first 12 verses(reading contextually and not lifting anything out). The previous passages speak of “one who is restraining” who is taken out of the way, then the lawless one is revealed then Christ comes and destroys him.

The passages in verses 13-17 are not some sort of indication that Church-age believers will be on earth during the Tribulation.

If we go back to verses 1-2, Paul is speaking to believers who had been alarmed by some letter they had received, supposedly from Paul, which told them that they were already in the Tribulation. In verses 3-12, Paul explains that the Antichrist cannot come until the Holy Spirit, via the Church, is taken out of the way. He then gives a brief description of the Antichrist.

Verses 13-17 are simply Paul's admonition to the Thessalonians to stand firm in their faith and "hold to" what they had been taught. It is not some instruction to hang on while they go through the Tribulation.

The Bible does not contradict itself. God tells the Church:

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5:9)

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (I Thess 1:10)

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ (I Thess 5:9)

The Church is promised that we will not go through the Tribulation. And nowhere in the Scripture are those promises contradicted.

96 posted on 04/02/2011 6:04:53 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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