Skip to comments.Anne Rice Likens Catholic Church to Mafia; Says Church is "One of the Biggest Criminal Organizations
Posted on 04/03/2011 6:33:28 AM PDT by marshmallow
We interrupt Reality to bring you this message from Anne Rice:
When I left the RCC last year, I still had faith in the "people in the pews." I thought they were good people. But from what I've seen in these discussions, I think I was sadly mistaken.
When are rank and file Catholics going to stop supporting the worldwide crimes of the RCC against children and victims of clergy abuse?
If you support the Mafia, are you not complicit in its crimes?
What does it take to get Catholics to
1- apologize personally to the victims of clergy exploitation.
2- refuse to support their diocese unless the diocese comes clean about complicity with abusers, and efforts to shelter them and enable them.
3- Publicly demand that the Vatican come clean on clergy abuse, and begin some worldwide moral reform to see that this kind of blatant criminal behavior is never enabled and protected again?
Some of the posts by Catholics in these discussions are positively nauseating. You'd think these people didn't belong to one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world.
The utter failure of the Vatican to admit its own wrongdoing is appalling.
The Pope and his assistants have zero credibility.
The idea of moral leadership by this church is very simply outrageous.
That was posted two days ago by Rice on an amazon.com "Catholic Discussion" under the heading of "Are Rank and File Catholics just as guilty as their hierarchy of worldwide sexual abuse?" (ht: J.V.). There's plenty more to read in the discussion, and some of the key points ("accusations", really) are, in summary:
Very few Catholics care about the priestly sex scandals, except to defend accused priests. Rice, in another post, writes, "It would be so easy for Catholics to stand up and say, 'We deplore this scandal, and we too want the truth.' But they really just don't do it." I'm not sure which is more mind-boggling: her omniscience or her ignorance (how about "omnignorance"?). Which leads to:
No matter what the Pope or bishops or other Catholics do, it is never enough, it is never good enough, and it is seen as either implicitly or explicitly intended to cover up sins, crimes, and failures. After all, if the Catholic Church is just like the Mafia and is "one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world", it will surely continue to find ways to do what Rice and Co. insist it exists to do: molest, abuse, lie, and destroy.
Catholics who defends the Church and who see bias or worse in the media when it comes to the scandals are either unwitting dupes or devious hatchetmen. Rice grudgingly admits that while some Catholics may have stood up and complained at some point, "the Catholic press is filled with defensiveness, attacks on the papers, attacks on the critics, excuses and platitudes. These discussions are filled with defensiveness and attacks on critics. I wonder: wouldn't the rank and file feel better if they stood up for the victims? Can't they be loyal to their pastors and their parishes and still speak up against people like Fr. Donald McGuire, and Marcial Maciel and other abusers?"
At this point there are already a couple big breaches in logicthe sort of breaches that Rice seems given to whenever she attempts to piece together her various "arguments" against the Catholic Church. One, for example, is that she insists the Catholic Church is essentially rotten and criminal in its very nature and that most Catholics are complicit in some way or another, but then insists that those same Catholics should be able to stand up against said criminal activities while remaining loyal to "their pastors and their parishes". Apparently she doesn't grasp that if she says that the Catholic Church is rotten through and through, it follows that every parish and priest (as well as lay person) is either tainted or corrupted and should be abandoned immediately.
Benedict XVI has addressed the scandals at many points in his pontificate (and was deaing with it years prior) and he has done more to directly confront the issue than anyone else (given his position, but also his awareness of the seriousness of matters). He has met with victims on several occasions; he has uttered very strong words about "the filth" that has been a vile cancer in the Church for several decades. He has dealt directly with specific situations, as in his letter to Catholics in Ireland just over a year ago. There is much more to it, as you can see here. But, of course, that will never be enoughnot even the start of enoughfor folks such as Rice. After all, she says: "The utter failure of the Vatican to admit its own wrongdoing is appalling."
In this, Rice sounds very much like another artistically-inclined, theologically-confused ex-Catholic, the singer Sinéad O'Connor, who recently wrote a piece with the modest, cautious title, "We Need a New Catholic Church". O'Connor refers to the Pope's 2010 end-of-the-year address at the Vatican to the Roman Curia, an address that she has both badly misunderstood and misrepresented before:
I thought the Vatican might be moved eventually, if enough people kept up the pressure. But after over 30 years of knowledge and pressure, at Christmas pope Benedict addressed his cardinals on the matter using the following words: "in the 1970s it was theorized that pedophillia was fully in conformity with man and and with children." He went on to say "nothing was considered either good or evil in itself." I can tell you that's not what the chemist told my granny when she asked for condoms.
His point apparently was to say that there was no more of an accepting attitude of pedophilia within the church than there was in secular society. Nonsense of course to suggest that after laws against pedophilia were enacted in the late 1800s anyone theorized it as acceptable. And there can never have been a child on earth who felt even slightly in conformity with pedophilia. Hardly needs stating that Jesus Christ would never have been in conformity either
This both misses the Pope's obvious pointthat moral relativism, wherever it exists, leads to evils such as pedophiliaand the obvious fact that there have been several movements, in both Europe and the U.S., pushing for pedophilia to be accepted as normal and healthy. (It also ignores, strangely, this statement by Benedict: "We were all the more dismayed, then, when in this year of all years and to a degree we could not have imagined, we came to know of abuse of minors committed by priests who twist the sacrament into its antithesis, and under the mantle of the sacred profoundly wound human persons in their childhood, damaging them for a whole lifetime." The entire address is necessary reading.)
O'Connor, apparently unable to understand the Pope's basic point and quite clueless about what has been going on in the world for the past few decades, jumps on her straw high horse to swipe at the Vatican straw man:
When I heard those words I knew there was no point fighting any more. There is no hope of morality or a fiery cleansing of the Vatican from within on this issue of respect for Christ. Only a headset entirely bereft of morality could have made such an astounding remark. And clearly a phalanx of lawyers added to this lack of morality means those of us who were fighting for a cleansed Vatican may as well throw down our arms. My dead mother has more chance of releasing her debut album.
However, while there are zillions of us who do not identify with the current Vatican's manifest definition of Catholicism, we still identify with the beautiful essence of the Catholicism we grew up with. But the child is being drowned, and the bathwater needs to get thrown out. And no one at the Vatican is going to do that. So we're going to have to run in and rescue the baby and raise it ourselves.
This appeal to the "the beautiful essence of the Catholicism we grew up with" is curious, as it's not entirely clear what O'Connor's experience was with Catholicism while growing up in the mid- to late-Seventies. Her life has been, to put it delicately, complicated: several marriages, several children by different men, admission and then partial retraction of being lesbian and/or bi-sexual; being "ordained" as a "Catholic priest"; a suicide attempt, etc. But there is no need to succumb to psycho-analysis; just look at the bottom line for O'Connor:
We must now start a provisional alternative Catholic Church for all, including present Catholic clergy, who have been let down and disillusioned and who want to see a Catholic Church which honours Christ with truth, honours the sacraments and the people's spiritual needs, has no hierarchy and does not dictate who God can love or not love. Nor whom can be in or out. Nor whether a woman is fit for Christ to make himself manifest through in priesthood. Nor whether the sacrament of sacred marriage and the comfort of children and grandchildren should be denied to priests. ... I don't know how, or what, I just know we need a new Catholic Church. If we stick to the sacraments and honor them fully, the rest will follow.
Two related notions stand out in O'Connor's essay: the distrust of and disdain for hierarchy and Church authority, and the conviction that Catholic beliefs about sexuality and the roles of men and woman must change to fit the times: "In history, people move. They create what they feel they deserve. Times change." The Church's beliefs, in other words, are malleable and should be at the service of our feelings of entitlement. Perhaps it is not so strange, after all, that O'Connor doesn't understand how Benedict's address was a direct denunciation of this deadly form of moral and cultural relativism.
The same two notions are in abundance in Rice's various posts and essays. She writes, "... I do think that the structure of the Roman Catholic Church has involved a particular kind of corruption. And other institutions no doubt have similar problems, related to their structure and their power. This is a worldwide monarchical organization that mixes ideas of religious virtue with its rules and regulations. And a system like that is bound to breed considerable corruption."
Of course, structures of governance can be abused, and its not as if Catholics are immune to corruption and sin; not at all! But Rice is saying something far more problematic: that "a worldwide monarchical organization that mixes ideas of religious virtue with its rules and regulations ... is bound to breed considerable corruption." I wonder: is it the worldwide nature of the Church that botheres her, or the combination of "religious virtue" and "rules and regulations"? I suspect it is more the second, which begs the question: is she opposed to religious virtue or to rules and regulations? (And, while we are at it, does she hold the same strong perspective about the U.S. public school system, which is filled with rules and regulationsand in which close to 10% of children are abused in one form or another?)
The answer, I think, can be found in Rice's strong support of "gay rights" and "same sex marriage". Her Facebook page describes Rice as a "Supporter of gay rights, and Same Sex Marriage" and says she is "Committed to defending the rights of women, children and gays against traditional religions that target them for special persecution and oppression." Now, it might be that Rice has written a great deal about, say, Islamic oppression of homosexuals and women, but it seems she is mostly focused on "one of the biggest criminal organizations in the world", the Catholic Church. It is also fairly obvious that she believes the Catholic Church, by its very nature and structure and beliefs, is focused on molesting children, oppressing women, and persecuting "gays" (incuding her son).
Finally, what Rice, O'Connor, and Co. don't seem to fathom is that many "rank-and-file" Catholics are able to make some basic distinctions that are necessary for comprehending why they remain Catholic. First, they believe the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, is necessary for salvation, and is both the holy Bride of Christ and on earth a communion with members who are sinnerssometimes horrific and even unrepentant sinners. The Catechism states:
"Christ, 'holy, innocent, and undefiled,' knew nothing of sin, but came only to expiate the sins of the people. The Church, however, clasping sinners to her bosom, at once holy and always in need of purification, follows constantly the path of penance and renewal." All members of the Church, including her ministers, must acknowledge that they are sinners. 300 In everyone, the weeds of sin will still be mixed with the good wheat of the Gospel until the end of time. 301 Hence the Church gathers sinners already caught up in Christ's salvation but still on the way to holiness:
The Church is therefore holy, though having sinners in her midst, because she herself has no other life but the life of grace. If they live her life, her members are sanctified; if they move away from her life, they fall into sins and disorders that prevent the radiation of her sanctity. This is why she suffers and does penance for those offenses, of which she has the power to free her children through the blood of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (CCC, par. 827)
Secondly, this means that Catholics can (and should!) be both outraged and horrified by the sins of certain priests and love the Church. Some Catholics, sadly, have been burned and badly wounded by their instictive trust in the innocence of this or that priest. But most Catholics that I know understand that pedophilia, homosexual acts, and other sins committed by priests are not caused by Church teaching or "the structure", but by free, sinful choices made in a fallen world. (In a similar way, they understand that the traditional, true understanding of marriage should not be ditched because so many people commit adultery, get divorced, etc.) They understand the parable of the sheep and the goats; they know about the wheat and the tares. And many Catholics have and do stand up to demand accountability, from bishops who have failed to deal rightly with guilty priests, with bishops who fail to call sin "sin", and bishops who would rather appease the critics than say, "Marriage is between a man and a woman. Homosexual acts are disordered and sinful. Fornication is a grave sin. Adultery is evil. Abortion is murder. Using contraceptives is a sin." And so forth. It's not that some of us Catholics fixate on those sins because we ignore the sins of molestation, abuse, stealing, and ignoring the poor; no, it's because everyone agrees those sins are evileven while a whole swath of Catholics refuse to acknowledge the sinfullness of abortion. homosexual acts, fornication, and using contraceptives.
Thirdly, this is part of the reason many serious, practicing Catholics are so frustrated with the way the Catholic Church is portrayed in the media; they tire of hearing how celibacy or the male priesthood or "traditional attitudes" are somehow responsible for actions are that, put bluntly, the evil acts of men who trangress God's law, Church law, and natural law when they engage in homosexual acts or pedophilia or fornication. As Philip Lawler shows in his book, The Faithful Departed, there is indeed corruptionbut it is not the product of a system of governance or hierarchy but of a failure to admit and repent of sin, very often that involving homosexuality. Of course, in a culture that celebrates homosexuality as not just normal but the pinnacle of evolution and enlightenment, such facts simply cannot be allowed. Alternative explanations, both convenient and unconvincing, must be given: Church teaching is repressive, celibacy is unnatural and leads to molestation, chastity is a quaint stupidity, following Catholic moral teaching is for nostalgic, puritanical fascists.
I'll conclude this overly long post (yikes!) with something I wrote about Rice many months ago, which I think sums up many of the serious problems with her opinions about the Catholic Church:
So, in addition to being fairly clueless about Catholic history and theology, Rice is equally clueless about the uneasy and complex relationships between Church and State, Christianity and secularism, and tradition and modernity that have shaped the culture we swim in, the society we live in, and public square we meet and debate within. And, in fact, she has become the very thing she sincerely but wrongly caricatures: a judgmental fundamentalist (secular in perspective, with a subjective sprinkle of magic Jesus dust) who damns the Church for not sleeping with the secularists, embarrassed that some Christians won't bow and worship the State that would be and wishes to be lord, life, and eternal ruler.
History repeats itself. During the French Revolution, corruption among a small percentage of the clergy was used as the pretext for a bloody persecution of Catholicism.
As for Rice, her rage is fueled by another issue which will also be used against the Church in the future; the homosexual question and the the Church's supposed persecution of homosexuals. Throw in complicity in the spread of a deadly disease (AIDS), for its stand on condoms and persecution of women for its fight against abortion and the "Catholic problem" becomes very real.
All the ingredients are there. It's simply a matter of time and the further decay of western morality.
Anne Rice must miss being in the news.
I enjoyed her vampire books, but she need to shut the h*ll up.
Brighten your day
Phoebe the hummer’s babies get ready to leave
the nest. (live cam)
you got that right.
Oh, those are the cutest little fat babies. Thanks.
How dare you smear catholics with your own personal hate towards them! Prove it or retract it !
Wow. These are some major intellects. The authoress of a steamy series on vampires and a has-been Irish pop star. St Thomas Aquinas, look out!
Thus far, I see no condemnations of the sexual abuse that has occurred, just condemnations of people who have done so and gone perhaps overboard in their anger.
That’s where people like Anne Rice are getting such an impression. You can easily correct that. Condemn the priests who have sexually abused children over whom they had or have authority. Make it absolutely clear that such behavior is not condoned, from anyone. Advocate the immediate removal and turning over of such priests and even bishops to civil authorities, so they will be held to account.
See? Not such a difficult thing. Follow this and no one will have any grounds, real or imagined, to imply complicity.
Proof is all over the FR. I'm not going to do your research for ya. Everytime a pervert Priest article is posted ya'll are exercised. Kinda like you are now.
Why does anyone care? Seriously.
BTW, I am a Catholic.
Seems you enjoy throwing the “hate” word around I see. Well Mr. FR since 2008, being around here since 1998 I’ve witnessed more defending the indefensible than you’d probably care to imagine. Makes me ill. Much like your whining does. Be well. Its Lent. Relax a little.
I agree with your post entirely. And I would add one more thing. The Church must publicly revoke the pensions of those retired priests who were involved in abuse crimes.
As a whole, the Catholic Church does an enormous amount of good. And the West will need strong institutions in the coming conflicts with radical islam.
But the Church must first heal itself. Completely.
Anne Rice is sadly unstable . My wife’s relative worked for her husband in his art gallery and Anne was up and down all the time . She left Nola after her husband’s death moved to Rancho Mirage and now she is selling her house there and moving back to Nola.
your a wacko who thinks you can smear all Catholics and no one going to challenge you. Prove it or retract it.
Wow. Glad we’re behind keyboards. I feel like I just burned your Koran. Any prozac in the house. Take it please.
She has a hangup with anything less than pure evil being an affront to her “artistic sense”. When you spend your life enshrining “eternally” murderous, blood sucking, admittedly evil, vampires, I guess the failings of less than perfect humans really ticks you off.
I don’t understand why Catholics defend the sex-abusers because the ones being abused are usually young Catholics...not Methodists or Episcopalians!
I read Interview with the Vampire at the urging of a couple of friends, and finished it feeling somewhat unclean, though I had to admit that it was skillfully written. I hold Anne Rice personally responsible for the modern rehabilitation and romanticization of the vampire, and the vampire role-playing subcultures, and Twilight and its progeny and imitators. I am sick to the back teeth of vampires.
I was--foolishly, I suppose--hopeful at the news of Rice's return to Christianity, not seeing things as a paradigm-shifting literary celebrity like Rice would see it: that the Church was just one more paradigm that she felt that she was able to shift, 'cause, like, people looked up to her and junk, 'cause she was important and popular, and she imagined that the Church was (or ought to be) a grassroots-run organization whose dogma and policy were determined by popular vote as informed by an information medium largely hostile to the Church--and which had (perhaps coincidentally) been largely responsible for her own success and fame, as well as her world-view and her view of the Church (or what she thought of as the Church).
Imagine her surprise and dismay, then, to discover that the two-thousand-year-old Church would not give way to a writer of vampire best-sellers, and that "the people in the pews"--among whom she was certain to have fans--weren't as pliant as she had hoped, and might have other reasons for being there than to be in the sort of church that she insisted on if she were to condescend to return to it.
but she need to shut the h*ll up. Or grow the h*ll up: either one will suit.
The Catholic church is corrupt.
except that it's good for people, whereas the mafia, not so much.
I'm thinking God was the originator, though, and the mafia, a cheap (if you'll pardon the pun), umm, knockoff.
How dare you smear catholics with your own personal hate towards them! Prove it or retract it !
Proof is all over the FR. I’m not going to do your research for ya. Everytime a pervert Priest article is posted ya’ll are exercised. Kinda like you are now
then your accusations are totally worthless, leaving you with the value of a tRoll....or perhaps an anticatholic drone.
LOL—why haven’t you accucumulated a “cache” by now to simply pull up and POST ? names and all ?
***”Catholics on these boards defend sex abuse”.***
>>”you got that right.”>>>
YOU GOT THAT WRONG! Marshmallow did NOT make that statement. She was quoting others to indicate the ignorant statement.
Anything you say about the Catholic Church in this matter applies equally to any group of people you care to mention.
But the Catholic Church is evil.
Makes sense to idiots, I guess.
That's a good point, and it helps to keep things in perspective.
But the Church needs to hold itself to a higher standard. People in Europe are drifting away from the Church, and the abuse scandal is certainly one of the reasons.
This is disastrous. As I mentioned in my post #17 above, the West needs the strong, unifying influence of the Church.
But I don't yet see the Church making all the moves it needs to cleanse itself.
The Catholic is the perfect religion practiced by imperfect people. In spite of good and bad people it will be here until the end of time. That it has lasted for 2000 years manifests that.
Looking at people missed the point. It isn’t people that makes the Catholic religion great. It is the Real Presence of the Body and Blood of Jesus.
That's straight out of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals
Rule #4: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."
Congratulations upon being a radical enemy of the Catholic Church. An unwitting, unaware, easily deceived one, but an enemy nonetheless.
Excellent post #23.
That has been done hundreds of times both by the hierarchy and here on Free Republic but is never acknowledged. Some are so twisted by hatred of the Catholic Church that they want to believe that it is by nature a criminal organization. No actions to clean out those criminals who have acted against the teachings and morals of the Church will ever satisfy them.
The fact that this has happened or is happening, is not the source of the controversy. The appearance of protecting them from being held to account is the source. I’ve understood that the Catholic Church has taken steps to rectify this, and that is a very good thing. Cases still keep cropping up, or apparently so, and so the upset and anger continues. Condemn it in no uncertain terms and point out these steps that are being taken. Beyond that, any human institution is going to be subject to occasional human failings as a result of sin. Make it very plain that it is in no way condoned or concealed. That’s all I can say.
We need to pray for Anne Rice.
She did become a Catholic or at least a Christian at one time. Have you read her book, “Jesus Christ, Out of Egypt?” It’s a novel about the childhood of Christ and is quite well documented.
However, as I understand it, she has gone back to her atheism and vampire novel mode. So, yes, she needs prayers.
Isn’t that making it personal — but I see you didn’t name names!!>>&)U)^^%%
I read more articles about people in some (Note I said “some” Protestant churches, taking money, cheating in other ways.
Prove it or retract it. You can’t put the entire Catholic Church in one bucket. But maybe you are a dimocrat.
Because they're all over the FR. Take the blinders off and read. Perhaps then you'll lose your Catholic jihadism.
Though there are and always have been sinners in high places and low within the Church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it. We have that on the very Highest Authority. If we can’t trust Him, who can we trust?
“He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon”
Are you running out of links to organize? lol.
But I stand by my comment. Their are certain institutions (the Church and the military, for example) which MUST be held to a higher standard if people are to have confidence in them.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Church leaders must behave perfectly. That's obviously impossible. And I believe that that's what Alinsky was referring to: attack the Church becaus its people are imperfect.
Those of us that believe in the goodness of the Church must reject this. Accept that there will be imperfections. And realize that those imperfections do not in any way lessen the value of the Church.
But at the same time the Church must work ceaselessly and publicly to minimize these imperfections. The Church must retain the confidence of the people. That is my point.
I have never collected any links on the abuse scandal. I know of too many priests who were falsely accused just for the money.
And the accusers were proved wrong in these cases — in court — no less.
But, please, think about what it does to a priest’s life. It is as though he had gone through a divorce or death of a spouse. It’s a big loss in their lives. I believe that many will be proved innocent and the accusers who collected money falsely will be justly judged on the final days.
Those priests who actually did abuse children will likewise be judged justly by God.
I just know of too many priests who have been false accused and been acquitted in court.
My reply was sincere and well considered, and was met with a rude and frankly personal attack, behavior that is not allowed on the Religion Forum. This is very unhelpful, E. Pluribus Unum.
You can certainly continue on lashing out at people who are concerned about the apparent problem rather than addressing the problem itself, but do not be surprised at the damage you’ll continue to unintentionally cause to the institution that you seem to cherish.
Whatever you say, Saul.
Are you interested in a robust discussion, or in trading insults?
If it’s trading insults, I don’t find that very productive, so I’ll pass.