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Religious Faux Pas? Most Catholics Use Contraception
LiveScience.com ^ | 4/14/11 | Stephanie Pappas

Posted on 04/14/2011 8:18:23 AM PDT by Grunthor

Catholic women overwhelmingly use birth control, despite an official ban by the church, a new study finds......

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Humor; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: contraception; nfp; safesex; thisisnotnews; women
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To: Running On Empty

useful graphic at: http://thomasgwyndunbar.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/conception-to-implantation-timeline/


101 posted on 04/15/2011 8:29:44 AM PDT by tgdunbar
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

OK, if you think that’s the right way to live, then more power to you. There doesn’t seem to be a point in arguing anymore.


102 posted on 04/15/2011 8:32:44 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

OK, God bless, thank you for the discussion.


103 posted on 04/15/2011 8:33:56 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Cronos

Actually, I think he is under the mistaken impression that you are Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.


104 posted on 04/15/2011 8:45:56 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

That’s right, he is an Eastern Orthodox.


105 posted on 04/15/2011 9:05:02 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo; kosta50; Kolokotronis; The_Reader_David; Cronos; ArrogantBustard

Verdugo, if you are going to address people like you did in post 85, it helps to ping them to your post. Otherwise, they probably won’t see you post to them.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, out of the five people you identified as Orthodox, only two of them are currently practicing Orthodox Christians.

Also, it is Lent. Why do you feel the need to say things that could lead to more argument on the religion forum?


106 posted on 04/15/2011 9:39:29 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; mockingbyrd

A couple months ago, I stumbled onto an older thread where I saw another view of NFP.

I think the poster was Herman the Cherusker, but I don’t see that name still on free republic. Anyway, he was saying that, according to most moral theologians, NFP is fine as long as you contribute a suitable amount of children to society. If I remember correctly, he also said that they estimated the suitable amount of kids for present-day America to be about 5 or so.

Do you have any comments on that? Was what he was saying correct at all?


107 posted on 04/15/2011 9:50:17 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: WPaCon; Dr. Brian Kopp

The Church has never said any given number is the “right” number. Therefore I would never assert that any amount of children was right or acceptable.

That being said, I do wonder if there’s a deeper meaning to what he was saying. My SIL talks about hitting a wall at five, and just feeling completely overwhelmed at that point, could also be because her last two were 17 months apart and super active little boys. At church, I’ve noticed that many families seem to stop at six, or at least there is a significantly larger gap between children after six. I’m sure part of that is maternal age, but there might be something to having five or six kids transforms the family a bit and they have to regroup, for lack of a better term.

So maybe he intends to reassure families who have grown quickly that it is ok to take a breather and that feeling overwhelmed isn’t a selfish feeling.

But I would never say X amount of kids is ok or you can close off yourself to life after that point.


108 posted on 04/15/2011 10:10:59 AM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: WPaCon

Actually, he had solid doctrinal statements to back up his assertions. I thought his views on the subject were very cohesive and convincing, from a Natural Law perspective.


109 posted on 04/15/2011 10:12:56 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: mockingbyrd
I think it's interesting that many people at your church stop at six. I have not noticed myself, because the parishioners where I usually go are more cafeteria Catholics.

But I would never say X amount of kids is ok or you can close off yourself to life after that point.

Yes, we should keep that in mind.

110 posted on 04/15/2011 10:48:29 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: mockingbyrd

When our children were younger, we bought a 3/4 ton twelve passenger van. We always wanted six or eight children, or more if God willed it. It was a great vehicle. When we took the seats out, it was like a moving van. With that and our utility trailer, we could move just about anything.

But after our third child, God never sent us any more. I guess we were a bit presumptuous.


111 posted on 04/15/2011 10:49:26 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Ok.

I was inclined to listen to his views, because he seemed to be one of the most knowledgeable people I’ve seen posting on this site.


112 posted on 04/15/2011 10:50:14 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: WPaCon

Unfortunately, we’ve lost some exemplary Catholic apologists from FreeRepublic over the past several years, and the forum is impoverished by their absence.


113 posted on 04/15/2011 10:56:39 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: WPaCon
My posting just before the part that you suggested I cc, says “here's what I wrote exactly:”.

In other words, all I did was reproduce in it's entirety the posting I had sent to Cronos way back (when a copy was sent to all those people that you referred to). Everything below the “here's what I wrote exactly:” is old news already fully discussed.

Please cc this to all those to whom you cc’d that old posting copy, so that they are not further disturbed.

re: Also, it is Lent. Why do you feel the need to say things that could lead to more argument on the religion forum?

It was a response to Cronos detracting against my faith, by falsely stating that I'm not Catholic.

114 posted on 04/15/2011 11:22:50 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; WPaCon

Do you have links to his works, or thoughts? I don’t remember him, sounds like he’s worth the read.


115 posted on 04/15/2011 11:58:27 AM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: mockingbyrd; Dr. Brian Kopp

Herman the Cherusker was apparently a Catholic freeper a while ago whose account is no longer active.

If I remember correctly, he was referencing moral theologians in general and not a specific one. So I don’t know if I could find any links to them.

If you just mean a link to the thread with the discussion on NFP, I’m going to try searching for it, but I probably won’t find it. I’ll let you know if I do.

Brian may know more about the thread I was talking about or the moral theologians Herman was referencing, though.


116 posted on 04/15/2011 12:29:08 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: verdugo; Cronos
My posting just before the part that you suggested I cc, says “here's what I wrote exactly:”.

I must have missed that.

Please cc this to all those to whom you cc’d that old posting copy, so that they are not further disturbed.

Honestly, I think pinging them would further disturb them, so I'll pass on that.

It was a response to Cronos detracting against my faith, by falsely stating that I'm not Catholic.

In the post you were responding to, I think he was criticizing your knowledge of Catholicism, not specifically saying that you are not Catholic.

By the way, what makes you think Cronos is Orthodox?

117 posted on 04/15/2011 12:36:24 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: WPaCon; mockingbyrd
It was a thread I posted back in 2003, Revisited: NFP and grave reasons: Serious reason "quietly dropped"?. See especially post # 20 The thread and Hermann's posts are certainly germane to this discussion.

(Its amazing what you can find using Google's Advanced Search options: NFP by Hermann the Cherusker site:www.freerepublic.com!)

118 posted on 04/15/2011 1:02:01 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; mockingbyrd

Wow! Glad you could find the link.

I have to admit that the discussion on that thread is much more “high-brow” than what I’m used to seeing on the religion forum these days.


119 posted on 04/15/2011 2:00:46 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; WPaCon

Wow! Thanks. 2003, a bit before my time. Didn’t join FR until 05, didn’t know about them until the forged memos of 04.

Highbrow....not a word I would use for the RF. Which is why I rarely get involved.


120 posted on 04/15/2011 2:04:40 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: WPaCon; mockingbyrd
the discussion on that thread is much more “high-brow” than what I’m used to seeing on the religion forum these days.

Yes, that was before FR purged a lot of the trad Catholics. They had a depth of knowledge that is often lost among us post-VII educated Catholics.

Fortunately, post-Summorum Pontificum, its no longer bad to be Trad.

121 posted on 04/15/2011 2:09:52 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; mockingbyrd

I remember reading in a blog post of yours linked from free republic you mentioning the purging of traditional Catholics from this forum.

Is there an interesting back story to that?


122 posted on 04/15/2011 2:20:20 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; WPaCon

I scanned the thread, very interesting.

One thing that stood out, without me reading too deeply, that won’t happen until kiddos are sleeping, was the brief discussion of education of children. One poster maintained that wasn’t a legitimate reason for postponing pregnancy, based upon Pius XII’s address to the midwives. But it seems to me, that standard isn’t necessarily available now. The need to homeschool didn’t exist at the time of Pius’ address. And the duty to properly educate your children can be effected by how many there are.

There’s a lot of food for thought that the laity really needs to have addresses.


123 posted on 04/15/2011 2:20:50 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: mockingbyrd
The need to homeschool didn’t exist at the time of Pius’ address.

That is a very good, very valid observation. We've homeschooled for 13 years now, but we only have three. My wife has her degree in elementary education, but our kids were 80-90% self taught once they were solid readers.

Honestly, we know a lot of large homeschooling families, and the older children often end up being a major help to the parents in the education of the younger ones. And lots of homeschoolers take more than 18 years to complete a tough curriculum like Seton.

I guess I'm just saying there are advantages of large families that are often overlooked in a culture diametrically opposed to large families.

124 posted on 04/15/2011 2:31:11 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I’m a Seton graduate and it’s hands down the best college prep school program out there. My kids are enrolled now.

I’ve been a high school tutor for 10 years and I see what happens when parents aren’t involved with their kids’ education at home. And the vast majority are large families where mom is overwhelmed.


125 posted on 04/15/2011 3:39:37 PM PDT by mockingbyrd
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To: WPaCon; Cronos
re: I think he was criticizing your knowledge of Catholicism, not specifically saying that you are not Catholic.

This is not the first time he's detracted against me, and for some time it is the ONLY response he has to what I post. He was character assassinating, it's all he's able to do to respond to my quoting from Church Fathers, Doctors, popes and councils, all of tradition/antiquity, what the Church had always taught for 1900+ years prior to the 1960’s.

re: what makes you think Cronos is Orthodox

I've seen this before, where Eastern Orthodox call themselves catholic. I read some of his responses and finally figured him out, and asked him point blank. He has never answered the question directly, always evading a direct answer till I refined the question down to the description of the Catholic Church that he can't hide behind - “The true Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church” (from the first Vatican Council, and Mystici Corporis Christi, by Pope Pius)

You won't see him answer Dr. Kopp directly either.

P.S. - I have extended the courtesy of copying Cronos since we are talking about him. I have nothing against him, I can understand that he is frustrated in not being able to respond to what i post, however, detraction against others is an intolerable offense.

126 posted on 04/15/2011 5:23:01 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
I find it odd the you suggest yielding to the world the judgment as to where Christ's Church inheres. Our Lord reminded us that the world hates Him, and thus will hate His followers. It seems likely then that the world might seek to mislead those trying to follow Him whom the world hates.

Of course, perhaps by "world" you mean "Western Europe", not "κόσμος". It seems to me that in more easterly parts the phrase "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" has always referred to what is now commonly called "the Orthodox Church".

If you chose to reply, I will not, at least not until after the Great and Holy Pascha.

May you have a blessed Feast of the Resurrection, however you keep it.

127 posted on 04/15/2011 5:43:53 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David
At what point did the Eastern Orthodox begin calling themselves Catholic? Did they inform the the Eastern Rite Catholics? What confusion! Reminds me of the cat who fell asleep and dreamed that he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he awoke, he didn't know whether he was a cat or a man.

The "Orthodox" get a free pass here on FR since no one here knows the real "doctrines" (few), and the fact that they are just 10 divided churches, and basically the Russian Orthodox are like 70% of the Eastern Orthodox. Yet, only 2% of the Russian Orthodox practice the religion. I don't blame them for leaving, as the Russian Orthodox Church is the lap dog of the KGB. All of that, yet some Orthodox say that the Eastern Orthodox are the one (though they are 10 separate churches), Catholic, church? Not even they believe that!

The 10 SCHISMATIC Eastern Orthodox churches:

(30 Days Magazine 1992)

Patriachate of Russian (Russian Orthodox) - 85 million

Patriachate of Romania - 17 million

Patriachate of Greece - 9.025 million

Patriachate of Serbia- 8 million

Patriachate of Bulgaria - 8 million

Patriachate of Constantinople - 3.5 million

4 other Patriachates together - 2.36 million

128 posted on 04/15/2011 7:51:17 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: The_Reader_David; WPaCon
At what point did the Eastern Orthodox begin calling themselves Catholic? Did they inform the the Eastern Rite Catholics? What confusion! Reminds me of the cat who fell asleep and dreamed that he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he awoke, he didn't know whether he was a cat or a man.

The "Orthodox" get a free pass here on FR since no one here knows the real "doctrines" (few), and the fact that they are just 10 divided churches, and basically the Russian Orthodox are like 70% of the Eastern Orthodox. Yet, only 2% of the Russian Orthodox practice the religion. I don't blame them for leaving, as the Russian Orthodox Church is the lap dog of the KGB. All of that, yet some Orthodox say that the Eastern Orthodox are the one (though they are 10 separate churches), Catholic, church? Not even they believe that!

The 10 SCHISMATIC Eastern Orthodox churches:

(30 Days Magazine 1992)

Patriachate of Russian (Russian Orthodox) - 85 million

Patriachate of Romania - 17 million

Patriachate of Greece - 9.025 million

Patriachate of Serbia- 8 million

Patriachate of Bulgaria - 8 million

Patriachate of Constantinople - 3.5 million

4 other Patriachates together - 2.36 million

129 posted on 04/15/2011 7:51:56 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo

“How can “natural” family planning, change the problem with the use of contraceptive family planning, mothers not having the children God has destined for them”

Would that be also an indictment on delayed marriage?


130 posted on 04/15/2011 8:05:03 PM PDT by TheDingoAteMyBaby
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To: mockingbyrd
I’m a Seton graduate and it’s hands down the best college prep school program out there. My kids are enrolled now.

Cool. I wish I had received a Seton education instead of the diocesan catholic school education I received. Twelve years of decent academics but pure rubbish instead of real Catholic formation. But then I was in Catholic grade and high schools from 1972-1984, the height of the post-VII chaos.

And the vast majority are large families where mom is overwhelmed.

True, we've certainly known overwhelmed moms of big families, there's just no getting around that.

131 posted on 04/15/2011 9:26:52 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: verdugo; Cronos; SumProVita; Lorica; Salvation
Verdugo, the only voice of tradition/antiquity

Verdugo, we are still waiting for your response to Lorica's question on another thread.

"... do you consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?"

We are not interested in whether or not you consider him to be validly elected.

Yes or No

132 posted on 04/16/2011 7:02:34 AM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: NYer; verdugo
Verdugo, the only voice of tradition/antiquity

I don't know whether to laugh, roll my eyes, or feel a small bit of empathy for those who have to balance on the pedestals they have made for themselves.

The question I asked him was never answered. Great noise was made about it, but the thing itself was left to go gently into the great internet night.

There's a big difference between acknowledging that proper procedure was followed in the pope's election, and considering, in one's mind and heart, that the sitting pope is valid. The former position removes one from actually having to make that very difficult decision, and I can understand the difficulty in taking the final step, because the only place one can go from there is sedevacantism.

133 posted on 04/16/2011 7:49:04 AM PDT by Lorica
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To: NYer
I've answered that like 10 times. You don't believe my clear words, and yet you swallow the ambiguities of the post Vatican II "newspeak", hook line and sinker?

re: "Verdugo, do you consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?"

Yes, he is a validly elected pope. He is the pope of the Catholic Church, the 266th pope in the apostolic line of popes which started with St. Peter the Apostle.

134 posted on 04/16/2011 11:43:25 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
Yes, he is a validly elected pope.

That is not the question. Do you, Verdugo, consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?

135 posted on 04/16/2011 2:51:27 PM PDT by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: verdugo
At what point did the Eastern Orthodox begin calling themselves Catholic? Did they inform the the Eastern Rite Catholics? What confusion! Reminds me of the cat who fell asleep and dreamed that he was a man dreaming that he was a cat, and when he awoke, he didn't know whether he was a cat or a man.

The Church is made up of the five original sees. One of them is the See of Rome. The other four Sees are equally valid and equally part of the Church. It is the sedevacantists that have removed themselves from the Church every bit as much as the Reformers.

136 posted on 04/16/2011 6:45:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: verdugo; Cronos; WPaCon
It was a response to Cronos detracting against my faith, by falsely stating that I'm not Catholic.

You appear to have removed yourself from the Church, so why would this be a false statement?

137 posted on 04/16/2011 6:46:43 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: verdugo
The Russian Orthodox represent like 64% of the total of all (the 10 separate national churches which are identified as the) the Eastern Orthodox. The Russian Orthodox are one religion that can really call itself united, and they are just 85 million people. A religion of 85 million does not dictate and re-define what THE WORLD has always called Catholic, and Catholic Church, a religion of 1100 million!

I don't care about what the world calls the Church. I care about what the Church calls the Church. And your screeds don't match.

138 posted on 04/16/2011 6:47:53 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: verdugo
All of you, please have the courtesy to copy me when you detract against me. Salvation did this before (did not copy me)in conspiring to have me removed from your “Catholic Caucus”, which should now be called Liberal Catholic Caucus, now that Verdugo, the only voice of tradition/antiquity, has been removed from it.

The only voice resembling Mel Gibson, you mean.

139 posted on 04/16/2011 6:49:02 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: NYer; Cronos; SumProVita; Lorica; Salvation

NYer asked: Verdugo, we are still waiting for your response to Lorica’s question on another thread.

“... do you consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?”
We are not interested in whether or not you consider him to be validly elected.

Yes or No

Verdugo responded: I’ve answered that like 10 times. You don’t believe my clear words, and yet you swallow the ambiguities of the post Vatican II “newspeak”, hook line and sinker?

re: “Verdugo, do you consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?”

Yes, he is a validly elected pope. He is the pope of the Catholic Church, the 266th pope in the apostolic line of popes which started with St. Peter the Apostle.

Nyer responded: re:”Yes, he is a validly elected pope”.

That is not the question. Do you, Verdugo, consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?

Verdugo responds: What planet are you people from? You strain gnats, you don’t believe my clear words, and yet you swallow camels of the post Vatican II “newspeak”, hook line and sinker?

Yes, I consider him a validly elected pope. I consider him the pope of the Catholic Church, I consider him the 266th pope in the apostolic line of popes which started with St. Peter the Apostle.

How can any of you look the other way when the Vatican II popes disregard all of the Church teaching, and do what all the popes have condemned with regard to ecumenism. How can you ignore Mortalium Animos? I’ve posted it 100 times, how can any of you ignore all of tradition, just because the current hierarchy is doing it? That is pure papalotry!

• Ignorance is bliss:
Sedevacantes and Papaloters, two sides of the same coin.
The sedevacantes say the popes can’t teach errors, therefore, we have had no popes since Pius XII. The Papaloters say nothing that the popes do is an error, therefore, tradition can be ignored, or has been updated.
The Catholic that follows tradition/antiquity, does not fall into that conundrum.
“Those that have eyes to see, let them see”.


140 posted on 04/16/2011 6:53:06 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
The punishment reserved for our times is prelates that allow the sheep to do whatever they want. Like the parents who do not direct and discipline their children, and instead want to be their buddy, and be seen as “cool”. It was never so:

The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops - it was true 1500 years ago and it is true now. However, when one rejects the Church in favour of one's own opinions, what separates that one from the Protestant Reformation? Luther campaigned on restoring the Church to its original form. So did Joseph Smith. So have uncounted multitudes of preachers and evangelists that have only one thing in common - their disdain for the Church right now.

Forgive my intrusion, Iscool, but I will ask your permission to get you to serve as an example here. Verdugo, what differentiates you from Iscool in terms of separation from the Church, except in specific nomenclature?

141 posted on 04/16/2011 6:55:25 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: NYer; Cronos; SumProVita; Lorica; Salvation
ECUMENISM CONDEMNED

Excerps from "Mortalium Animos", Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, On Religious Unity, January 6, 1928.

2. A similar object is aimed at by some, in those matters which concern the New Law promulgated by Christ our Lord. For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism andatheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

3. But some are more easily deceived by the outward appearance of good when there is question of fostering unity among all Christians. 4. Is it not right, it is often repeated, indeed, even consonant with duty, that all who invoke the name of Christ should abstain from mutual reproaches and at long last be united in mutual charity? Who would dare to say that he loved Christ, unless he worked with all his might to carry out the desires of Him, Who asked His Father that His disciples might be "one"[1]. And did not the same Christ will that His disciples should be marked out and distinguished from others by this characteristic, namely that they loved one another: "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another"[2]? All Christians, they add, should be as "one": for then they would be much more powerful in driving out the pest of irreligion, which like a serpent daily creeps further and becomes more widely spread, and prepares to rob the Gospel of its strength. These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians continually repeat and amplify; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a mostgrave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed.

5. Admonished, therefore, by the consciousness of Our Apostolic office that We should not permit the flock of the Lord to be cheated by dangerous fallacies, We invoke, Venerable Brethren, your zeal in avoiding this evil; for We are confident that by the writings and words of each one of you the people will more easily get to know and understand those principles and arguments which We are about to set forth, and from which Catholics will learn how they are to think and act when there is question of those schemes which have for their end the union in one body, whatsoever be the manner, of all who call themselves Christians.

8. This being so, it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.

9. These pan-Christians who turn their minds to uniting the churches seem, indeed, to pursue the noblest of ideas in promoting charity among all Christians: nevertheless how does it happen that this charity tends to injure faith? Everyone knows that John himself, the Apostle of love, who seems to reveal in his Gospel the secrets of the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and who never ceased to impress on the memories of his followers the new commandment "Love one another," altogether forbade any intercourse with those who professed a mutilated and corrupt version of Christ's teaching: "If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you"[18]. For which reason, since charity is based on a complete and sincere faith, the disciples of Christ must be united principally by the bond of one faith. 10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it.

142 posted on 04/16/2011 6:56:53 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: MarkBsnr
If I remember correctly you also (like Cronos) are not a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. (Mystici Corporis Christi, by Pope Pius XII (and the first Vatican Council).

I don't really care about what the Eastern Orthodox do or believe, same as I don't care about what Hindus believe. I don't see why any Eastern Orthodox should care about what the Catholic Church does. The Orthodox should not bring this subterfuge here, acting as if they are a Catholic, criticizing a real Catholic.

143 posted on 04/16/2011 7:10:22 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
If I remember correctly you also (like Cronos) are not a member of the true Church of Jesus Christ is the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church. (Mystici Corporis Christi, by Pope Pius XII (and the first Vatican Council).

Your memory is as good as your doctrine. I have corrected you on this before. I follow the Bishop of Rome, without reservation; a cradle Roman Catholic and proud of it.

SSPX was excommunicated and should have stayed excommunicated. BXVI made a great mistake in dealing with those idiots. There may have been some worth bringing back into the Church, but that idiot Williamson and all of the stiff necked wonders who differentiate only from the example of Calvin in their terminology are not Catholic and need to be booted from the Faith permanently.

I've read your screeds. I know Serbian peasants who are far better Catholics and who show it every day than what you are handing out.

144 posted on 04/16/2011 7:16:54 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Iscool

Ping to post. Apologies for omitting you.


145 posted on 04/16/2011 7:28:00 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: verdugo; NYer
NYer:

Do you, Verdugo, consider Pope Benedict to be a valid pope?

verdugo:

Yes, I consider him a validly elected pope.

Do you see what you're doing, verdugo? This is why we say you haven't answered the question.

The wording I'm looking for from you is:

I consider Pope Benedict XVI to be a valid pope.

Leave "validly elected" out of the sentence, if you are able.

146 posted on 04/16/2011 8:44:25 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: MarkBsnr

re: I know Serbian peasants who are far better Catholics and who show it every day than what you are handing out.

I know Protestants that are better Catholics than Catholics, yet that does not make them Catholic. They are outside of the Church, where their is no salvation. Hopefully, they will convert before they die.

As for the rest that you wrote it’s just character assasination. If god outs people in front of you that know more than you, He is giving you a nudge to elearn your faith better. To advance in knowledge. Detractions and character assasinations are the stuff of children who do not want to be bothered.


147 posted on 04/17/2011 5:17:06 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
I know Protestants that are better Catholics than Catholics, yet that does not make them Catholic. They are outside of the Church, where their is no salvation. Hopefully, they will convert before they die.

No little band of morons gets to second guess the Church. The Church includes the congregants of the five Sees. When a splinter group walks away and loudly brays that it alone contains the wit and wisdom of all of Christendom, how does that separate it from anything that the Reformation has spawned?

As for the rest that you wrote it’s just character assasination. If god outs people in front of you that know more than you, He is giving you a nudge to elearn your faith better. To advance in knowledge. Detractions and character assasinations are the stuff of children who do not want to be bothered.

The Church says what the Church says; it is not beholden to a splinter group. Splitters and quitters do not make the rules either in the 1500s or in the 1900s. You either accept the Church or you don't. If you don't and consider your own group's doctrines and pronouncements to supersede Church doctrines and pronoucements, then you have removed yourself from the Church.

Sneering at the congregants of four of the five original Sees as non Catholic removes you from Catholic consideration and those who have asked to have you removed from any FR Catholic Caucus are absolutely correct and I back them completely. Come on back when you declare your Christianity.

148 posted on 04/17/2011 6:30:11 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: MarkBsnr

People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal, and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!

-St. Peter Eymard


149 posted on 04/17/2011 10:34:48 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: MarkBsnr

re: The Church includes the congregants of the five Sees.

And what exactly does this mean to you? Are you saying that the schismatic Eastern Orthodox are part of :

The true Church of Jesus Christ the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church (Mystici Corporis Christi, by Pope Pius XII (and the first Vatican Council)?


150 posted on 04/17/2011 10:40:11 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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