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The Church Fathers-Mary: Without Sin
The Church Fathers ^ | 70AD-584AD

Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow

The Ascension of Isaiah

“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80])

Justin Martyr

“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

Pseudo-Melito

“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).

Ephraim the Syrian

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).

“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Timothy of Jerusalem

“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).

Gregory of Tours

“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).

“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: maryiworshipthee; thereisnonebutthee
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Posted as a rebuttal to that atrocious thread about "apparitions'", which appeared around here a day or two ago. It was full of heresy and the foulest blasphemies.
1 posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:53 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

agreed.


2 posted on 04/14/2011 9:35:52 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: marshmallow

agreed.


3 posted on 04/14/2011 9:36:14 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: marshmallow

Thank you.


4 posted on 04/14/2011 9:38:45 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: marshmallow

Mary needed the Savior as much as anyone.


5 posted on 04/14/2011 9:42:36 AM PDT by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: marshmallow

How can you use the “Ascension of Isaiah” when it is blasphemous? It describes Jesus as “disguising” Himself as an angel through several trips on the way to being born. The Lord has no need to disguise Himself. And many authorities agree that the Odes of Solomon are heretical. “The Father being milked by the Holy Spirit to cause the incarnation of Jesus.”


6 posted on 04/14/2011 9:43:21 AM PDT by wbarmy (I chose to be a sheepdog once I saw what happens to the sheep.)
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To: RoadGumby

Of course she did. Christ saved her ahead of time so that she could be a fit mother. God stands outside time.


7 posted on 04/14/2011 9:49:39 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: marshmallow

Luke 1:46-47

“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my SAVIOUR.”

Yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus needed a SAVIOUR. And she has a SAVIOUR.

She was not sinless.


8 posted on 04/14/2011 9:53:34 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

There are many who think of God as just a really nice powerful person. They have a hard time with the “master of time and space’ stuff and what that means.

Freegards


9 posted on 04/14/2011 9:54:04 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: RoadGumby

“Mary needed the Savior as much as anyone.”

Yep.


10 posted on 04/14/2011 9:57:01 AM PDT by Grunthor (The man or woman who doesn't forgive has forgotten the price that Christ paid for them on the Cross.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Riiight. Mary worship is wrong. Sorry if that offends.


11 posted on 04/14/2011 9:57:10 AM PDT by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: wbarmy
The Lord has no need to disguise Himself.
OT, but What do you make of the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) who didn't recognize Jesus after the Resurrection?
12 posted on 04/14/2011 10:00:02 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: marshmallow

Holy Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse in thee.


13 posted on 04/14/2011 10:03:02 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Ransomed

They do not understand the whole concept of Kairos. To them eternity is just one long stretch of never ending time.


14 posted on 04/14/2011 10:04:31 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Of course she did. Christ saved her ahead of time so that she could be a fit mother. God stands outside time.

Amen.

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee

15 posted on 04/14/2011 10:07:20 AM PDT by frogjerk (I believe in unicorns, fairies and pro-life Democrats.)
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To: wbarmy
It's one of the Pseudoepigraphic works, and has never been recognized as within the canon of scripture.

But since it's generally acknowledged to be a composite work, parts of it may still be instructive . . . not as a matter of which belief is demanded, but an indication as to what Christians of the third century were thinking.

16 posted on 04/14/2011 10:08:37 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: marshmallow
Sorry, but the Catholic church is very little different than the Mormon church. They both read and inculcate written "teachings" that are clearly writings of man. They contradict both logic and the Mosaic texts. Mary, the mother of Yeshua, was a normal woman, that gave birth while still a virgin, yes. She went on to have other children by normal means. She was not a saint, no person alive or dead is a saint, but through judgment of God, not of men. There are many that live and are called holy and righteous, that Jesus himself will spit out, saying "I KNEW YOU NOT". They will go to eternal punishment, unless you wish to contradict the Lord Yeshua Messiah.

I am a Christian, with my own beliefs, it seems though that Catholics have nearly one of five threads going at all time. It is not informative, it is an attempt to push religious dogma. JMHO, and forgive me if I offended anyone.

17 posted on 04/14/2011 10:14:49 AM PDT by runninglips (Republicans = 99 lb weaklings of politics.)
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To: RoadGumby
Who's worshipping Mary? Not me, and I don't know any Catholics who do (I'm sure we have our misguided and confused, just like every group on this fallible earth, but the Church does not approve and indeed forbids it.)

It makes perfect sense for God to purify the woman who was going to carry God in her body for nine months and then have (with St. Joseph) the raising and education of Him for all of His childhood. It is contrary to nothing in scripture, and indeed tallies with the angel Gabriel's salutation - "Hail, full of grace" (in the Greek, the verb form indicates a complete and perfect fullness) - with no room left for sin.

This does not mean that the Virgin Mary is divine or worthy of worship. The Church has always distinguished between worship, which is due to God alone, and the honor paid to saints, especially the Virgin Mary.

18 posted on 04/14/2011 10:17:25 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: marshmallow; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...
.

Photobucket

REVISIONIST, UNBIBLICAL, PRETEND, FANTASY "HISTORY" STRIKES AGAIN!

19 posted on 04/14/2011 10:19:06 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: fishtank
Yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus needed a SAVIOUR. And she has a SAVIOUR.

Correct.

She was not sinless.

Incorrect.

For a description of why, step back from the modern American congregationalist approach, which is utterly adrift on a sea of individualism and subjectivity and try to reconnect with early Christian thought.

Check out the Church Fathers. What I've posted above is simply a few snippets. There are many other treatises on this subject. Worth a read.

20 posted on 04/14/2011 10:19:17 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: runninglips

Well said.


21 posted on 04/14/2011 10:23:46 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: AnAmericanMother

Prayers go up to Mary, to the Saints. I’m sure Jesus wonders why they aren’t directed to Him.

All have fallen short, even Mary. All praise is due Jesus, no other. Paul was a great Christian post-Damascus road. Yet, he’s not worthy of receiving prayer.

Only one name by which we may be saved - Jesus.


22 posted on 04/14/2011 10:25:21 AM PDT by RoadGumby (For God so loved the world)
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To: marshmallow

I liked the quote from St. Augustine. As I’ve said before, he is one Saint that seems to me to constantly be misquoted or quoted out of context to support a wide range of heresies not the least of which is Calvinism.

All those who aren’t Catholic who believe he was (insert heretical sect of choce here) ask yourselves:

What Church did he convert to later in life?

Why is even his mother regarded as a Saint in the Catholic Church?

If he really was a Calvinist (or Baptist, or any other crazy idea one may have for his religious affiliation), how is it his entire life is steeped in Catholicism? Was he some kind of secret whatever denomination?

I’m so sick of him being hijacked by those who deny the Church. Get your own Saints/Fathers in history. If you can. (which of course you can’t)


23 posted on 04/14/2011 10:27:34 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: runninglips
One of the things which we need to do, Americans in particular, is to reestablish a connection with the early church. It's entirely absent in our "storefront" approach and it has lead to all sorts of improvisation and novelty.

Unless one holds to the idea that once Jesus ascended into heaven, it all went south and the church got lost only to be rediscovered a millenium or so later, then one needs to read and understand the writings of those who actually knew the Apostles, who were taught by them and who were instrumental in the early spread of Christianity. They, in turn, handed on what they had been taught to their own disciples.

History does matter. These men received the authentic interpretation of Scripture from those who were taught by Jesus. Their writings are important.

24 posted on 04/14/2011 10:34:08 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

Romans 3:23.

Have a great day.


25 posted on 04/14/2011 10:35:46 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg ("It's hard to take the president seriously." - Jim DeMint)
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To: runninglips
it seems though that Catholics have nearly one of five threads going at all time. It is not informative, it is an attempt to push religious dogma. JMHO, and forgive me if I offended anyone.

I've noticed a huge increase in Catholic threads as well. They're not just caucus threads either; many of them are titled with provocative headlines like this. The posters know they are irritating many; the only reason I can see that they do it so often is to "push dogma" as you state.

Very strange.

26 posted on 04/14/2011 10:39:22 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: marshmallow

This is like looking to the writings of Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg for authoritative statements on the personal life of George Washington. She is so far removed from any personal knowledge of the facts that were she to write anything that contradicts what Washington’s contemporaries had said, you would be very foolish to take Ginsburg’s word over theirs.


27 posted on 04/14/2011 10:48:15 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: marshmallow

I would bring up the point that the Bible itself answers the question.

Mary herself admitted in Luke she needed a savior. Further no one (including Mary) comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ.

For ALL (including Mary) have fallen short of the glory of God.

Only Christ lived a perfect, sinless life - which is why when we believe in Him (alone) his perfect obedient life is imputed to us as righteousness. There is no other person that lived a perfect sinless life. And if there was, there would be another name under heaven we could believe in to be saved.

The prphecies in the Bible regarding ‘the seed of the woman’ from Genesis on, never said the woman would be sinless and live a sinless, perfect life. It said she would be a virgin. Meaning the birth of the savior would be a miracle God brings about supernaturally.

Genesis never says this. Isaiah never says the virgin is sinless and lives a perfect life. None of the New Testament every shows Mary in a light that she was also sinless and was living a perfect sinless life. The fact she and Joseph were angry at the young Jesus forbeing in the temple for days without them knowing it, shows Mary was not perfect and sinless - she would have not been angry at Jesus because she would have known exactly where he was because she would have been sinless and perfect and understood this being that way.

I love the real, biblical Mary. Not the artificially enhanced because man think it must be so, even though the bible doesn’t say it, Mary.


28 posted on 04/14/2011 10:49:51 AM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: marshmallow
One of the things which we need to do, Americans in particular, is to reestablish a connection with the early church

I agree with this. Americans not only have to reestablish a connection with the early church...they need to reestablish a connection with history in general which the liberals have managed to erode.

However, Tthe early Fathers were fallible and had both good and bad things to say. This is one reason why their sayings are NOT equal with Scripture which is fully God-breathed. Therefore when a belief that the early Church Fathers held held CONFLICTS with Scripture, it is Scripture which must hold sway.

29 posted on 04/14/2011 10:50:23 AM PDT by what's up
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To: marshmallow

What’s the over-under for how many replies this thread gets?

350?


30 posted on 04/14/2011 10:52:01 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Of course she did. Christ saved her ahead of time so that she could be a fit mother. God stands outside time.

Can you give me a chapter and verse for that statement.
31 posted on 04/14/2011 10:54:14 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: marshmallow

The Church Fathers-Mary: Without Sin

And they got that from the ‘father of lies’!

Jesus, The Word, The HEAD of His Church says ALL have the sin nature.

Why does the counterfeit RCC insist the Mary was without sin when she was born?

Because God’s Word says ONLY JESUS was born without sin! And their existence is solely to oppose God’s Word!

From the beginning - who used deception to oppose God’s Word? SATAN! Nothing new under the sun. Thus the RCC is a pawn of satan - and brought forth the catechism and traditions - which nullify God’s Word.

Tell us why Jesus had to come if there was ‘one’ sinless one on earth?

Who was the ‘one’ that was DESTROYED because of the Jesus’ death and resurrection of Jesus? Satan! That’s who is behind the ‘Mary was sinless’ heresy - because everyone else gained VICTORY at The Cross. Satan is going down and he’s hell bent on bringing down all he can with him!

Anyone believing what opposes God’s Word gave up their victory for a lie! That’s how deception works.


32 posted on 04/14/2011 10:54:22 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: eastsider

As God He could have kept them from recognizing Him so that a lesson could be taught. The Bible states that he was average and not something special who stood out. It was also dark and they were wearing the shawls over their heads.

It really doesn’t matter. The Bible is clear that Jesus will not take on another form so that all can see “Him, whom they pierced”. He will not change His form because the holes in His hands, feet and side will always be there for us to see.


33 posted on 04/14/2011 10:56:31 AM PDT by wbarmy (I chose to be a sheepdog once I saw what happens to the sheep.)
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To: Quix; marshmallow
REVISIONIST, UNBIBLICAL, PRETEND, FANTASY "HISTORY" STRIKES AGAIN!

Quix, I must be missing something. I can't find where your "history" is striking again.

34 posted on 04/14/2011 10:57:28 AM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Siena Dreaming
I've noticed a huge increase in Catholic threads as well. They're not just caucus threads either; many of them are titled with provocative headlines like this. The posters know they are irritating many; the only reason I can see that they do it so often is to "push dogma" as you state.

Leaving aside the issue of reading posters' minds and their motives for posting threads, this thread was motivated, as I said in post #1, by the desire to rebut some of the garbage posted on this thread.

Now if you want to talk about provocative titles, how about Apparitions Exposed!.

At least mine doesn't have an exclamation mark.

You would also be aware of course, that many of the threads which address Catholic issues are actually posted by Protestants. To use your words........"very strange".

The obvious antidote to too many Catholic threads, of course, is to provide us with some alternatives. Or I guess, you might want to consider a quota system whereby Catholics are limited in the amount of "dogma" they can push. Put some restrictions on them, in other words. Is Catholic "dogma" "irritating" to you? I'm sorry if it is but here's something on which you can depend.

If tripe like Apparitions Exposed! gets posted, there will be a response.

35 posted on 04/14/2011 11:00:13 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: lastchance
Holy Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse in thee.

If that's true, Mary could have died for the sins of the world. We needed someone without original sin to die for us sinners.

Better yet, God should have allowed Eve to have a child without the sin of Adam and that would solved the "original sin" problem.
36 posted on 04/14/2011 11:00:13 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: Ransomed
They have a hard time with the “master of time and space’ stuff and what that means.

I think reading time-travel science fiction would help with that. Seriously. You learn that the verb tenses we have just don't FIT.

37 posted on 04/14/2011 11:01:36 AM PDT by nina0113
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To: marshmallow

Uh..no Mary was not “without sin (her personal sin)”, that sin could only become covered by belief in Jesus, her son, the way anyone else needed to believe in Him!

J.S.


38 posted on 04/14/2011 11:02:30 AM PDT by JSDude1 (December 18, 2010 the Day the radical homosexual left declared WAR on the US Military.)
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To: eastsider
OT, but What do you make of the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) who didn't recognize Jesus after the Resurrection?

It was Jesus that prevented them from recognizing Him and not them. It was after they broke bread with them and their eyes were opened.
39 posted on 04/14/2011 11:03:23 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: theBuckwheat

Exactly and well said. So much for ‘history’ in the hands of evil.


40 posted on 04/14/2011 11:04:09 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: ForAmerica
If that's true, Mary could have died for the sins of the world. We needed someone without original sin to die for us sinners.

Except of course, that she wasn't and isn't divine. Jesus saved her FIRST, at the very moment of her conception, and restored the ability (lost by Eve for all of us, thanks much) to make a choice for or against obedience, with no influence from Satan.

41 posted on 04/14/2011 11:06:07 AM PDT by nina0113
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To: marshmallow
Mary was sinless? Are you really going to spout something as blasphemous as this, knowing that I'm about to break out the book of Romans on your Roman Catholic butt? You can stack all of the dead Roman Catholics you want up in support of your idea, I'm going to continue to trump you with direct Scripture quotes and we both know that Scripture, as the inspired Word of God, trumps tradition.

Rom 3:23 KJV - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12 KJV - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Now, we know that God, speaking through His servant Paul, cannot err, you are caught in your own heresy. Repent and reject this evil, as it is in direct contradiction of Scripture.

42 posted on 04/14/2011 11:06:32 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs
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To: marshmallow
Left one out:

Martin Luther

"But the other conception, namely the infusion of the soul, it is piously and suitably believed, was without any sin, so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin and adorned with the gifts of God to receive the holy soul thus infused. And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin..."
43 posted on 04/14/2011 11:07:05 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: theBuckwheat
This is like looking to the writings of Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg for authoritative statements on the personal life of George Washington. She is so far removed from any personal knowledge of the facts that were she to write anything that contradicts what Washington’s contemporaries had said, you would be very foolish to take Ginsburg’s word over theirs.

I think you've got it backwards.

It's us who are removed from the early Church. It's our modern [American] world which has completely lost the connection.

The Church Fathers are the men who knew the Apostles, in some cases, and in other cases, knew those men who were taught by the Apostles. Irenaeus is a good example, as is Justin Martyr.

This might be hard to believe but we do not know more about Scripture than they did.

44 posted on 04/14/2011 11:09:46 AM PDT by marshmallow ("A country which kills its own children has no future" -Mother Teresa of Calcutta)
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To: marshmallow

Catholicism ‘tries’ to distort God’s Word as liberalism ‘tries’ to distort the Constitution. Both peas in a pod - to distort TRUTH!

Christians and Conservatism vs Catholicism and Liberalism.

Good vs. Evil

Truth vs. Propaganda/heresy.

Freedom (God given rights) vs. Socialism/Control (man made teachings Vatican)


45 posted on 04/14/2011 11:13:57 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: marshmallow
this thread was motivated, as I said in post #1, by the desire to rebut some of the garbage posted on this thread.

Why not notate that?

The title of your thread is provocative on a stand-alone basis for the thousands of people who never saw the other one.

The obvious antidote to too many Catholic threads, of course, is to provide us with some alternatives.

There are already hundreds of alternatives here every day...of a political nature. Which is what Free Republic is about.

46 posted on 04/14/2011 11:14:44 AM PDT by what's up
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Correct, further, although not recorded, I personally suspect that Mary was with the disciples when Jesus/Yeshua breathed on them and said "receive the holy spirit", the firstborn of the 2nd covenant church. This is when I believe the disciples and Mary were saved, for their previous belief was not in a resurrected Lord, until that moment. The presence of Christ entered them.

Yet later, the 120 received the power of the Holy Spirit; does anyone think Mary was there, with the faithful, those waiting for the promise of Jesus:

he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me, 5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

and "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Sama'ria and to the end of the earth."

47 posted on 04/14/2011 11:15:09 AM PDT by veracious
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To: AnAmericanMother
Of course she did. Christ saved her ahead of time so that she could be a fit mother. God stands outside time.

Umm, no, Christ didn't save her ahead of time. She even admitted to needing a savior herself long after Christ was born. It seems your heresy tradition is getting in the way of the Gospel. Didn't Christ have some very harsh words for those who clung to tradition?

48 posted on 04/14/2011 11:16:30 AM PDT by paladin1_dcs
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To: Quix; marshmallow
REVISIONIST, UNBIBLICAL, PRETEND, FANTASY "HISTORY" STRIKES AGAIN!


They totally ignore the WORD
Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

49 posted on 04/14/2011 11:18:35 AM PDT by Lera
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To: Quix; marshmallow
REVISIONIST, UNBIBLICAL, PRETEND, FANTASY "HISTORY" STRIKES AGAIN!


They totally ignore the WORD

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

50 posted on 04/14/2011 11:19:00 AM PDT by Lera
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