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The Church Fathers-Mary: Without Sin
The Church Fathers ^ | 70AD-584AD

Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow

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To: RoadGumby

“Mary needed the Savior as much as anyone.”

And she knew it. Luke 1:47-50 “And my spirit has rejoiced in God MY SAVIOR.” If she were without sin, she wouldn’t have needed a Savior.

The Bible never says that Mary was anything but an ordinary person. She was good, and God used her in a special way. Nobody in the Bible, including Jesus, worshipped Mary. Only Elizabeth praised her, but only because she was carrying Jesus — not because Mary herself was holier than anyone else.

After Mary prayed with other Christians in Acts 1, she isn’t mentioned again. The apostles didn’t single her out as being special or prominent. Her death isn’t recorded in the Bible. She didn’t ascent to Heaven, and there’s no mention of her having an special place there.

As for praying to/through her, that is specifically taboo in the Bible, as is all idolatry.


401 posted on 04/18/2011 7:23:35 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: johngrace

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


402 posted on 04/18/2011 7:24:56 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: conservativegramma

Welcome

to

The Vatican Alice In Wonderland School Of Theology and Reality Mangling.


403 posted on 04/18/2011 7:26:25 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: MayflowerMadam

YUP.


404 posted on 04/18/2011 7:27:34 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: johngrace
but only in our own righteous deeds (done) after the grace of God

First of all, you believe 'man' john/chrysostom before you believe God? Certainly sounds like the catholic way. If God says one thing 'without works' and surer than anything, the Vatican/RCC will say the opposite.

The Grace of the Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega, is NOT enough that one needs their filthy rags to obtain salvation? Do you think one has a major pride issue - thinking anything they have is worthy of salvation?

Someone would have to tell you that because no one person would believe that on their own. Especially with the next breathe - they tell us how humble they are!!

Who fell because of pride? You might want to check - that catholic teaching came from the same place.
405 posted on 04/18/2011 7:50:25 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!


406 posted on 04/18/2011 7:54:33 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: presently no screen name

You can credibly criticize Catholic teaching just as soon as you produce an explicit scriptural explanation for why Matthew 18:19 doesn’t work for you.


407 posted on 04/18/2011 8:06:15 AM PDT by papertyger
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To: presently no screen name
"...Do you think one has a major pride issue..."

I think someone who thinks, "I am saved. I'm going to heaven. My reservation is guaranteed" would be very likely to be affected by pride - and to develop a feeling of disdain for those who are unsaved.

A priest I know of was once asked by a Baptist minister, "Brother are you saved?" The priest replied, "Brother, I'll know if I get there!"

408 posted on 04/18/2011 10:22:47 AM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Celtic Cross
I think someone who thinks, "I am saved. I'm going to heaven. My reservation is guaranteed" would be very likely to be affected by pride - and to develop a feeling of disdain for those who are unsaved.

Spoken like a Catholic!! You guys never disappoint but always show the lack of knowledge of God's Word. Thank your church for that.

Develop a feeling of disdain? You are projecting - from what I have witnessed it's catholics who have disdain with those who are saved and blesssed. Why aren't catholics saved? Who are they going to blame that they aren't saved? What's stopping them? "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.."

It's one of these - 'you can't have what I don't have'. CONTROL. And then it proceeds into INTIMIDATION - I'll call you prideful! Like words and tactics count. LOL! I'm saved and walk in his blessings daily and there is nothing you can do or say to change that. Seems like jealousy from catholics of God's own children who are saved and blessed. That's the price believers of man-made teachings/doctrine have to pay.

I am a friend of God! John 15:15

"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from My Father I have made known to you".

Thank YOU, JESUS, My Savior! YOU are the FINAL AUTHORITY!

It's ALL about JESUS!
409 posted on 04/18/2011 11:05:55 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
Uh, case in point - you clearly have a great deal of disdain for Catholics.

"I'm saved and walk in his blessings daily and there is nothing you can do or say to change that."

Not quite. But for sake of argument, lets just say you are indeed saved. Now, lets say you go and commit a mortal sin. What then?

410 posted on 04/18/2011 11:36:23 AM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Celtic Cross

There is no such thing as a moral sin.


411 posted on 04/18/2011 11:37:38 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Celtic Cross

There is no such thing as a mortal sin, any sin, even the slightest sin leads to death. Sin is Sin.


412 posted on 04/18/2011 11:38:13 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: Scythian
Mortal sin is very real.

John 5:16-17: "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is a sin which is not mortal."

Luke 12:47-48: "And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more."

413 posted on 04/18/2011 12:11:30 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Celtic Cross
Uh, case in point - you clearly have a great deal of disdain for Catholics.

You are clearly are wrong. What I see is a disdain for God's Holy Spirit Inspired on your part and my distain is for anything that opposes God's Word which is man made teachings/doctrine.

I'm saved and walk in his blessings daily and there is nothing you can do or say to change that."....Not quite.

NOT AT ALL! I'm a child of The Most High God, I'm saved and you can do one thing about it but whine, whine, whine because of RCC man-made teachings.

But for sake of argument, lets just say you are indeed saved. Now, lets say you go and commit a mortal sin. What then?'

What then? You want to argue about my salvation? LOL! Get it over it. It Is Written that It is Finished. Mortal sin? LOL! I'm not catholic.
414 posted on 04/18/2011 12:38:26 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Celtic Cross

What the heck? I looked up John 5:16, you must have your chapter/verse messed up. Can you double check, I’m interested. I’m sure you must be using some kind of Catholic thing because I searched on

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

and cannot even find the word mortal in the new testament?


415 posted on 04/18/2011 1:04:47 PM PDT by Scythian
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To: presently no screen name
"What I see is a disdain for God's Holy Spirit Inspired (word?) on your part."

Nope.

"What then? You want to argue about my salvation? LOL! Get it over it. It Is Written that It is Finished. Mortal sin? LOL! I'm not catholic.

Yes, what then. I know you're not a Catholic. That has nothing to do with it. But mortal sin is in the bible. See my reply to scythian.

So my question is still - what then?

416 posted on 04/18/2011 1:07:11 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Scythian

I’ll look into that. I think perhaps I’m looking at a different translation.


417 posted on 04/18/2011 1:08:53 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Celtic Cross
I was using the Revised Standard Version. 1 John 5.

Here is the Link, if I've got my html correct.

418 posted on 04/18/2011 1:17:54 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Scythian
I was using the Revised Standard Version. 1 John 5. Here is the Link, if I've got my html correct.
419 posted on 04/18/2011 1:19:39 PM PDT by Celtic Cross (Some minds are like cement; thoroughly mixed up and permanently set...)
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To: Celtic Cross; dangus

Well, quite frankly, I did not expect a response as too often our friends here posit false positions of The Church when their own positions are utterly wrong and provably wrong, biblically and logically.


420 posted on 04/19/2011 11:04:10 PM PDT by Cronos (Christian, redneck, rube and proud of it!)
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To: boatbums
As I said, bb

We in orthodoxy hold that:

  1. The Bible is God-breathed
  2. The Bible is inerrant i.e. without any error
  3. The Bible is the source of doctrines of the Christian faith and the standard of faith
  4. There is nothing "missing" as in sources of fundamental belief of God as opposed to authority in discernemtn in scripture
  5. No "other source" bare Apostolic Tradition is anywhere near the level of authority and even A.T. though it is the original "pool" is still subservient to scripture.

We differ with you on the

  1. sola i.e. only bit, and on
  2. the sole "authority (as it is not a rule book)" and the "all" doctrines.

the authority bit is the easiest to explain why sola scriptura is wrong -- because the Bible is not a rule book especially the NT, there are positions that are clear and positions that if one takes in isolation can lead to wrong, conflicting conclusions (double-predestination as the best example), some more being

  1. does sola scriptura say one should believe in something as basic as Jesus was always God (Trinitarian position) or that Jesus Christ was man made God (Oneness PENTECOSTAL Protestant position) or the Angel Michael (Seventh Day Adventist Ellen G White teaching) note this is fundamental belief
  2. Does sola scriptura say that there is the REAL Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Lutheran, some Anglicans, maybe even Methodists), or is it just a symbol (Calvinists) another fundamental belief
  3. Does sola scriptura say that one MUST talk in tongues (Oneness Pentecostal) to display faith or not?
  4. Is Baptism for the remission of sins (Lutheran or Methodism) or not (say Baptist?)
  5. Does sola scriptura say that Baptism is for infants and sufficient (Presbyterian etc.) or not (Baptists)? Does sola scriptura say that Jesus came only for the salvation of a few (Calvinists) or he was Savior of the world (everyone else)?
  6. Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with soul sleep? (Calvin: "As long as (the soul) is in the body it exerts its own powers; but when it quits this prison-house it returns to God, whose presence, it meanwhile enjoys while it rests in the hope of a blessed Resurrection. This rest is its paradise. On the other hand, the spirit of the reprobate, while it waits for the dreadful judgment, is tortured by that anticipation. . .", Psychopannychia,
  7. Does sola scriptura agree or disagree with worshipping on a Sunday (Presbyterians, Pentecostals etc.) or not (Seventh Day Adventists say it is the sign of the beast)
  8. Does sola scriptura agree with the Adventists that one should follow kosher laws or not?
  9. Does sola scriptura believe that we still have spiritual gifts like prophecy amongst us (Pentecostals) or not (Presbyterians)
  10. Does sola scriptura say that there is no free will (Calvinism) or that man has free will (Mennonites)
  11. Does sola scriptura say that it is faith + works (Mennonites: Menno Simons told the followers of Luther and Calvin: “If you wish to be saved, you must walk in the way of the Lord, hear His Word, and obey it. For nothing avails in heaven nor on earth unto salvation, … not even Christ with His grace, merit, blood, and death, if we are not born of God, … if we do not believe His Word sincerely, and if we do not walk in the light and do right. As John says: …>If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie.’” (Complete Writings of Menno Simons, p. 208)) or not?
  12. Does sola scriptura say that there is imputed righteousness (Calvinism) or not (Mennonites)

Note, all of these are basic, fundamental beliefs, not additional beliefs and by referring to various passages in isolation, different practioners of sola scriptura arrive at different conclusions.

Also, do note that each of these groups uses an "authority" other than scripture to prove it's point to the detriment of others - even down to the individual persons who argue with each other on fundamentals -- each uses an "authority" that is not the Bible alone, that is not sola scriptura to justify their point

The second point, we have argued about this before ad nauseum and reached no conclusion but we can agree to disagree. I will only point out that

  1. There is nothing "missing" as in sources of fundamental belief of God as opposed to authority in discernemtn in scripture
  2. No "other source" bare Apostolic Tradition is anywhere near the level of authority and even A.T. though it is the original "pool" is still subservient to scripture.

Remember "Holy Tradition" does not include in any way vestments or celibacy or forms of respect to saints. -- To say that one must derive from Scripture alone all of the theological truths that God wished to reveal to mankind—and even all of the religious practices in which Christians should engage (i.e., that Scripture is "sufficient for faith and practice") is demonstrably wrong --> and if I am not mistaken, you do not take this extreme point of view, correct?

Apostolic Tradition includes such points as against contraception or the sacrament of confession (which you do disagree with, I know), etc.

Yet, honestly, isn't even "sola scriptura" a tradition that "if its not in the Bible, we do not believe" -- a tradition that leads to all of the above differences in fundamental beliefs and even to the extreme points of the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses taking the same points to extreme (because each interprets differently -- perhaps more the Jehovah's witnesses than Mormons).

Is it not true that many times a practitioner of sola scriptura will say the Bible is "unclear" on something to allow for differing opinion and interpretations? Yet, how does that square with "Scripture is the authority and source of all doctrines of the Christian faith" if you have "unclear" points?

Let's just take the point of John 3:5 where Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be "born of the water and of the spirit"
-- does that mean:

  1. Born of birth amniotic liquid? Hence that means that spirits must be born on earth (and I've heard Freepers putting this argument forth)
  2. Just a spiritual Baptism?
  3. Baptismal water and Holy Spirit's action through this?
Each of these views is held by various practitioners of sola scriptura, and this is a fundamental belief, mind you.

Which of these is true? All three can't be at the same time true as they are contradictory

Jesus would have explained what He meant to His disciples and Nicodemus who would have explained it down to THEIR disciples and so on and so forth ("ok, Druselius, now I was taught by Antonicus who was taught by Marius who was taught by Ignatius who was taught by Polycarp who was taught by John the Apostle who was taught by Jesus that this passage here means.....").

There is no doubt that Christ taught His disciples, scripture even points out that He taught them post His resurrection, yet those points are not in scripture, so what are they? Maybe a detailed set of what the words given earlier really meant? Most likely because the Apostles and the ones following them were always clear to say that they learnt from so-and-so Apostle

Paul made it clear when he says not to say "I am of Apollo, I am of Paul but of Christ" that the focus should be on the ultimate teacher of the teachers, not that he is against people sticking to the rule of what was taught by their teachers. In fact he urges people to stick to what they were taught and to hand that down to others. That is the basic definition of Holy Tradition -- the teachings from the Ultimate Teacher through a succession of teachers, all lesser -- it doesn't matter about the character of the intervening teachers, what matters is the Truth is pure and it is pure because it comes from the Ultimate Teacher who is pure. -- Now remember the Bible is utterly accurate, yet, besides as shown above not giving the exact meaning of certain points, it does not say a lot about some things either - how did Early Christians worship? What were the rules for this worship, the manner in which this worship was carried out?

The Bible does not say anything about this, yet we have an external work dating from 70 AD (Apostolic times), the Didache which does just that (in fact it possibly predates Revelations)

What does it say?

And this is how we worship today, just as we were taught right back to the Apostles (1 Tim 3:15 15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.)

421 posted on 04/20/2011 2:04:17 AM PDT by Cronos (Christian, redneck, rube and proud of it!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama
I'm sorry, but 2ndAmmama, you have been wrongly informed. Church teaching is all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body
the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church

All Salvation comes from Christ the head. This is what Christ said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6)

you and I will agree that the salvation is freely granted by God,

jesus also points out the means for salvation:

This is what Christ tells us in scripture

Also note that Christ during his time told the Samaritan woman in John 4 that she needed to go to the Body of believers at that time (the Jews), the means.

The only one who gives salvation and eternal life is Jesus, as He Himself said


422 posted on 05/06/2011 2:02:45 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: LeGrande; kosta50

ping to post


423 posted on 06/13/2011 4:32:42 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: LeGrande; kosta50; getoffmylawn
I will concede that the battle has been lost

not quite, not yet...

424 posted on 06/14/2011 6:22:29 AM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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