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The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
National Catholic Reporter ^ | April 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

Posted on 04/20/2011 12:07:28 PM PDT by AnalogReigns

The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants

Apr. 18, 2011

Article Details

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why

By Thomas Reese

Viewpoint

The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.

We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.

While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.

Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.

Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.

Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.

One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.

Spiritual needs

The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.

In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.

Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.

The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.

Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.

Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.

Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.

Becoming Protestant

If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.

Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.

Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.

Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).

What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.

Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.

Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.

Lessons from the data

There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.

First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.

While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.

Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.

The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.

Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.

Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.

The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.

[Jesuit Fr. Thomas J. Reese, former editor in chief of America, is a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University in Washington. He is working on a new book: Survival Guide for Thinking Catholics.]

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TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; evangelical; exodus; protestant
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To: Campion; Invincibly Ignorant; AnalogReigns
All I see is that he's a liberal. So what? You can question the author's conclusions or solutions, but it's rather difficult to argue with the statistics from an independent organization. If Catholics are leaving to become evangelicals then there must be a problem.

Liberals may quote Rasmussen polls to try to make a point. It doesn't make the statistics wrong. What solutions they conclude may (and often are) incorrect.

151 posted on 04/20/2011 4:59:29 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: don-o; wmfights
It's just made up by some preacher.

Don-o, it sounds a lot like Gnosticism to me. The Mormons think you have to have the special handshakes and the Five Points of Fellowship of the Melchizedek Priesthood to get into heaven. Maybe the Evangelicals think you have to be able to glibly recite a "testimony" of their "Gospel".

Neither one is Scriptural.

wmfights, I don't believe God is going to be asking me any questions when I die. He has all the answers already.

But if I'm wrong, here's a picture of my defense attorney. All questions should be addressed to him:


152 posted on 04/20/2011 5:01:27 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: HarleyD; Lorica
All I see is that he's a liberal.

You're the one who said he was being smeared, not me.

If Catholics are leaving to become evangelicals then there must be a problem.

Never said otherwise. But the problem was caused precisely by some of the things Reese identifies as the solutions. Lorica's post #114 identifies exactly what I'm talking about.

153 posted on 04/20/2011 5:04:59 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Lorica; Campion

Compare the dogmatic decree of 1441 Pope Eugene IV’s, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, AND and “Christ Among Us”, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, the major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)

Oil and Vinegar, the two will never mix.

Olive Oil Catholicism

Among adults there are few saved, because of the sins of the flesh....With exception of those who die in childhood, most men will be damned. (St. Remigius of Rheims)

If you only knew the women who will go to Hell because they did not bring into the world the children they should have given to it. ( St. John Vianney)

They who are to be saved as Saints, and wish to be saved as imperfect souls, shall not be saved. (Pope St. Gregory the Great)

A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell. (St. Anthony Mary Claret - It has been revealed that on the day St. Bernard their also died 79,999 other people, and of this total of 80,000 who died, only St. Bernard and two other monks were saved. So out of 80,000 dead, 79,999 went to Hell.

So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparatively few are saved! (St. Philip Neri)

Scarcely anyone is saved. (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori)
_________________________________________________________

Vinegar Catholicism

“There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever.
(p. 289, Christ Among Us, by Fr. Anthony Wilhelm. The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press, it has sold over 2,000,000 copies)
unedited original:

DESIRE AND DECEPTION 119
The major religious text for Catholic High School students and for adult education in America was Christ Among Us, by the then Fr. Anthony Wilhelm, C.S.P. First published in 1967 by Paulist Press (ah, our old friends!), it has sold over 2,000,000 copies, although publication was switched to the secular firm of Harper and Row after the Vatican insisted Archbishop Gerety’s imprimatur be removed a few years ago. Your author will now share with his readers its insights on the question of salvation:
There are other ways of being united to God besides baptism. Most of the human race has never heard of or cannot believe in Christ or baptism. As the world population increases, Christians become proportionately less. The Christian life begun by baptism is becoming more and more the privilege and responsibility of a few. Most of humanity is united with God in other ways. (op. cit., p. 199).
Many men come to God in this way through other, nonChristian religions ... So, too, one who cannot believe in a personal God, through no fault of his own, but is committed to following his conscience, receives God’s grace pre
sence God lives within many unbelievers, though they may
oppose him or those who try to work for him. (p.200).
Theology has no complete answer as to how, or even whether anyone may be damned forever. (p. 289).
This heretical viewpoint, as even Rahner observed, has no basis in
Revelation. It is therefore all. Yet it is
dominant in most sectors of the Church today. It is an error which has
slithered all the way to the top, and carried in its train either denial or
trivialization of all other dogmas. So complete is its hold that most
Catholic commentary on earlier writers is informed by it, 6 la Brodrick.
Your author cites as a case in point the edition of Ven. Walter
Hilton quoted earlier, which, you may recall, records Hilton’s
opposition to the then novel notion that belief did not matter with
regard to salvation. Translator M. L. Del Masto’s footnotes on p. 350
to that section quoted are most revealing:
1. The position Hilton refutes here is now the orthodox one and goes under the name Baptism of Desire, though in his own time it was, at best, a probable opinion [probable? Your author must beg leave to differ considering the weight of the quoted authorities in the earlier chapters of this book]. I


154 posted on 04/20/2011 5:07:53 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Lorica; Campion
They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is palin and simple, they prefereed the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

155 posted on 04/20/2011 5:15:09 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: verdugo
The position Hilton refutes here is now the orthodox one and goes under the name Baptism of Desire, though in his own time it was, at best, a probable opinion

The Council of Trent taught dogmatically that either baptism or the desire of it was required for salvation. (The Latin of the decree is aut voto eius. A Feeneyite gentleman of my acquaintance tried to tell me that aut voto eius meant "and the desire of it". That's false; any Latin dictionary proves it quickly.)

156 posted on 04/20/2011 5:15:37 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Lorica; Campion
They lost the faith, that is why they left the Church, it is plain and simple, they preferred the darkness. One is not a real Catholic who lives the faith because they read the right books and go to mass. One is a real Catholic because they respond to God's Grace, PERIOD. A sinner instantly looses sanctifying grace, and outside of the Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Catholic Doctrine on Grace

Outside of the Catholic Church there is no sanctifying grace:

Although, predisposing or prevenient graces are given to anyone of those outside the Catholic Church, so that they can turn to God, change their lives and enter the Catholic Church, for without these graces no one would ever convert. However, outside the Catholic Church no sinner can attain sanctifying grace, the state justice wherein one can receive in their soul the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. They can't receive sanctifying grace because they are in a perpetual state of mortal sin, since there is no way for them to receive remission of sin outside of the Church.

DOGMA:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…”

157 posted on 04/20/2011 5:15:58 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Campion

Who is Hilton?


158 posted on 04/20/2011 5:17:58 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: HarleyD; Campion
ut the problem was caused precisely by some of the things Reese identifies as the solutions. Lorica's post #114 identifies exactly what I'm talking about.

Here's the thing: If the Church had not had to deal with bishops and priests who have worked to weaken the Church from within for decades, you would not see the numbers leaving the Church from then till now.

The lack of nuts-and-bolts catechetical instruction (including scriptural), the loss of reverence in the liturgy, and those who, like Reese, wanted, and got, "flexibility" have left generations of Catholics unsure of what they believe. You may think it's a blessing. I think it's a tragedy.

And regarding your seeming lack of interest in whether he's a liberal: Liberals are only detested in news/activism. On the religion forum they're useful tools to some.

159 posted on 04/20/2011 5:20:52 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: Campion
re:The Council of Trent taught dogmatically that either baptism or the desire of it was required for salvation.

Trent taught that either baptism or the desire of it was required for justification (not salvation as you wrote).There's a big difference.

The problem with baptism of desire, is that it splitting hairs, asking the question: What happens to a person who is pre-justified before receiving the water of baptism, and dies in that condition? St. Augustine called it the vortex of confusion, to think that God could give the grace for conversion of the hardened sinner, then could not keep the person alive long enough to have any passerby pour the water and say the few words.

Anyhow, baptism of desire does not apply here to this thread, since we are talking about baptized Catholics who have left the Church

160 posted on 04/20/2011 5:30:19 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: Lorica; Campion
And regarding your seeming lack of interest in whether he's a liberal: Liberals are only detested in news/activism.

My point is that people are smearing him-not refuting the statistics. It's like a liberal saying the jobless rate is over 8% and the solution is to spend more money. No one would quibble with the stats. However the solution is all wrong.

Catholics here have admitted the Church has "been weaken". Is anyone going to refute the stats? Yet I don't hear they trying to do anything about it.

161 posted on 04/20/2011 5:31:25 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: AnalogReigns

My Jewish mother-in-law visited my evangelical church a few times and said “the people are very warm.”

Then she visited my catholic relatives church, and she said “Nobody even said hello to me! I’ll never go there again.”

And she hasn’t. Take it for what it’s worth.


162 posted on 04/20/2011 5:33:23 PM PDT by cookcounty (Eric Holder, Head of the Department of JUST-US.)
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To: HarleyD
My point is that people are smearing him-not refuting the statistics.

Why would I refute the statistics? If they've left the Church, they've left the Church. Why are you looking for a refutation of the numbers? On the other hand It's very instructive to identify the author and what he proposes to fix the problem. To us, at least.

No one would quibble with the stats. However the solution is all wrong.

Exactly what I just said.

Catholics here have admitted the Church has "been weaken". Is anyone going to refute the stats? Yet I don't hear they trying to do anything about it.

Again, why are you looking for us to refute the stats? And what would you have us do?

163 posted on 04/20/2011 5:38:48 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: AnalogReigns
The Hidden Catholics Exodus

No explanation here will work, unless this fact is taken into account:

.... Latinos, who already account for roughly 1-in-3 adult Catholics overall, may account for an even larger share of U.S. Catholics in the future. For while Latinos represent roughly one-in-eight U.S. Catholics age 70 and older (12%), they account for nearly half of all Catholics ages 18-29 (45%)....

Possible reasons for Exodus:
1.Massive "White Flight"
2.Massive leave of Latino immigrants, because their mothers religion doesn't work for them in the US.
3. A combination of both
164 posted on 04/20/2011 5:41:48 PM PDT by Koracan
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To: Campion

St. Augustine:
“If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)


165 posted on 04/20/2011 5:42:44 PM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: cookcounty

Excellent illustration of the superficiality and egocentrism that leads folks to choose a church that makes them feel “warm.”


166 posted on 04/20/2011 5:47:58 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: Lorica
And what would you have us do?

There isn't much you can do is there? That is, if you believe this is the way the Holy Spirit is leading and protecting the Church, you may be opposing that will. This Jesuit priest has been appointed by the Pope and given the authority of the Church. So even though Catholics may disagree with him, they must submit to his calling. Why gripe?

Then again, perhaps the people who left to go to an evangelical Protestant church were actually the ones to see God's will.

167 posted on 04/20/2011 5:59:33 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
This Jesuit priest has been appointed by the Pope and given the authority of the Church. So even though Catholics may disagree with him, they must submit to his calling.

You should study "Catholicism" sometime.

No individual priest is owed this type of mindless submission.

Are you afraid that like so many, an honest investigation will lead you to cross the Tiber?

168 posted on 04/20/2011 6:02:14 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

Oh I heard “This is My Body, which will be given up for you,” but was unfamiliar with “we have all sinned and all fall short of the glory of God” and if we repent and trust in Jesus Christ, we can be justified and made righteous in the eyes of God. I went to confession and was told to pray 50 hail marys to make up for my sins, when Jesus did it all. I was told to be a good person, when that’s impossible. I was told that if I wasn’t good enough in this life, that I could work it off in purgatory. All these things are false. I will be justified by the blood of Jesus Christ. His work was enough to cover all sins. He, who knew no sin became sin so that we might become His righteousness. And yes it is sad that in 12 years, nobody told me the whole story.


169 posted on 04/20/2011 6:10:20 PM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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To: HarleyD
There isn't much you can do is there?

The most powerful weapon we have is prayer.

This Jesuit priest has been appointed by the Pope and given the authority of the Church. So even though Catholics may disagree with him, they must submit to his calling.

This Jesuit has no jurisdiction over me, so there is no obligation to "submit to his calling." And yes, I would submit that you may very well know we can disagree with him, as we do disagree all the time here with various liberal/heretical/heterodox voices.

Why gripe?

Sheesh... We get grief for griping, we get grief for not griping...

170 posted on 04/20/2011 6:11:32 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: deltaromeo11
Oh I heard “This is My Body, which will be given up for you,” but was unfamiliar with “we have all sinned and all fall short of the glory of God”

You thought that Catholics taught the sacraments because we were all free from sin?

Superficial.

171 posted on 04/20/2011 6:15:04 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: RJR_fan

“....or swim the Tiber.”

You can swim both directions of the Tiber. Frankly, I’m happy no matter which way folks are swimming, if they find what they think they are looking for.

This thread pegs my piety detector meter, so I can’t even tell who is going to hell.


172 posted on 04/20/2011 6:33:19 PM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: RnMomof7
No , Catholics believe that they are damned by their sin..not that they are saved by Christ..

As opposed to the true belief that you folks can say "the sinners prayer" and go about happily sinning the rest of your life with no repercussions.

At least try to pretend you have some inteleldctual understanding of the Catholic doctrine

173 posted on 04/20/2011 6:58:55 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: wmfights
I attended RC services with these family members and it was lifeless and stifling. My first time attending I was shocked I was the only one that brought a Bible. I understand that there are pamphlets with Scripture to read in the pews and there are prayers that require a specific response, but it was so ritualistic there was no life to it.

Shhhh your ignorance is showing. Virtually every bit of the Mass is taken directly from scripture.

http://www.wctc.net/~mudndirt/Scripture%20in%20mass.htm

I will be looking forward to you publicly correcting yourself. I won't get it, but now we all know that you don't know what you are talking about.

174 posted on 04/20/2011 7:08:31 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: cookcounty
My Jewish mother-in-law visited my evangelical church a few times and said “the people are very warm.” Then she visited my catholic relatives church, and she said “Nobody even said hello to me! I’ll never go there again.” And she hasn’t. Take it for what it’s worth.

Okay here is what I take from your cute little anecdote is that you want want fellowship and warm fuzzies go to an evangeklical church, but if you really want the truth go to the Catholic Church, that is what you are saying correct?

175 posted on 04/20/2011 7:14:11 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: SoothingDave

My point was that Catholics don’t teach what the Bible says. Catholics also do not teach saved by grace through faith alone.


176 posted on 04/20/2011 7:14:17 PM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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To: deltaromeo11
Catholics also do not teach saved by grace through faith alone.

The Bible doesn't teach that either.

177 posted on 04/20/2011 7:17:26 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: verga

saved by grace through faith
Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8, 2 Timothy 1:9


178 posted on 04/20/2011 7:25:37 PM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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To: HarleyD; Campion; Lorica

HarleyD/ Campion/ Lorica:

Actually, as this article notes, none of those who left ever stated they went to Protestantism because they embraced Mainline Protestantism’s Doctrine of Justification, which tends to be Arminian in some cases {Methodist and Anglicans to some degree] or Luthers view or the heretical Calvinist penal substitution system of Justification.

This author’s describtion called eccesial consumerism says it all:

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/04/ecclesial-consumerism-redux/

But in some sense, all of those who left are defaco liberals in that they have elevated their own personal tastes to dogma and doctrine. The 81% statistic is striking in that they like a worship service that is more creative or fits their personal tastes. In other words, it is all about them!!

Pope Benedict in his great work “Spirit of the Liturgy [pp. 159-170]” lays out why this whole notion of worshiping as I see fit is actually heretical. Orthodoxy, as he notes actually has its roots in meaning the right way to glorify God, i.e. worship Him. Thus, the Liturgy of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are ultimately right worship of God. Everything else is less than that. How do we glorify God, by praying the Liturgy and living in communion with Christ’s paschal mystery, by participating in his Eucharist a [Thanksgiving to the Father] in which Incarnation leads to Resurrection.

The Pope notes that Liturgical Rite means the practical arrangements made by the community in time and space for the basic type of worship received from God in faith. So what are Rites and where do they come from, the Pope notes [p. 160] that Canon 6 of the Council of Nicea is a good starting point in that it notes “Three Primatial Sees”, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch and then shortly after Nicea in 325, Constantinople emerges as major center of Liturgical life as well.

All of the major Rites grew organically and had some uniformity over time. However, recently, as the Pope Notes, Rite has experienced dissolution and is now replaced by “CREATIVITY” of the community.

Before going into the “CREATIVITY” issue, the Pope makes several major points. First, it is important that the individual Rites have relation to the places “Christianity originated and the place the Apostles preached” [and it ain’t in evangelical protestant America]: they are anchored in the time and place of the event of divine revelation. Thus, the Christian faith can never be separated from the soil of sacred events from the “choice made by God”, who wanted to speak to us and become man in a particular time and place. Second, the Church can’t forsake her roots, she recognizes the true utterances of God in the context of history in time and place to where God ties us, and thus we are all tied together. Thus, Rites are not just products of inculturation, they are forms of Apostolic tradition.

Second, the Rites are not fenced off from each other but enrich each other [Rome and Byzantine had liturgical exchanges in the 1st millennium]. However, as the Pope notes, they elude the control of any individual, local community or regional Church. Unspontaneity is of their essence. In these Rites, the Pope notes, I discover that something is approaching me here that I did not create myself, which ultimately derives from Divine Revelation. As the Pope continues, he beautifully notes that this is the reason the Christian East calls the Liturgy the “Divine Liturgy” which expresses thereby Liturgies independence from human control

As the Pope continues, he points out that even the Pope can’t change the Liturgy by himself he is bound to the Tradition of Faith and that also means the Liturgy. So, Rite as he now more fully defines [p. 166] is the expression that has become form, of eccesiality and of the Church’s identity as a historically transcendent of liturgical prayer and action. Thus, Rite makes concrete Liturgy’s bond with that living subject, which is the Church, who then is characterized by adherence to the form of faith that has developed from Apostolic Tradition The Pope notes that legitimate development can occur but Rite “precludes spontaneous improvisation”.

The Pope then refers to Luther and notes that despite his “radicalization and reversion to Scripture alone”, Luther did not contest the ancient Creeds [which are fixed symbola of the faith expressed in Liturgy] and thus left Protestantism and inner tension that became the fundamental problem of Protestantism. With the move a more rigid sola scriptura and the influence of the various radicalization of the critical methods of scripture study, sola scriptura can’t provide a foundation for the Church and a commonality of faith. Scripture is Scripture only when it lives within the living subject which is the Church.

The Pope then notes in very strong words, that is why it is absurd that a not insignificant number of people today are trying to reconstruct the Liturgy afresh on the basis of sola scriptura. In these reconstructions, they identify Scripture with the prevailing exegetical opinions thus confusing faith with opinion. Liturgy manufactured this way is based on human words and opinions. It is a house built on sand and remains totally empty, however much human artistry adorns it [i.e. popular music, charismatic preaching style, auditorium style worship space with modern technology, etc.]

Only respect for the Liturgies fundamental unspontaneity and pre-existing identity can give us what we hope for: the feast in which the great reality comes to us that we ourselves do not manufacture but receive as gift. This means that “CREATIVITY” cannot be an authentic category for matters Liturgical. In any case, this is a word that developed within a Marxist world view. Creativity means that in a universe that in itself is meaningless and came into existence through blind evolution, man can creatively fashion and a new and better world

Thus the life of Liturgy does not come from what dawns upon the minds of individuals and planning groups. On the contrary, it is God’s descent upon our world, the source of real liberation. The more priests and the faithful humbly surrender themselves to the descent of God, the more “new” the Liturgy will constantly be and the truer and personal it becomes. Yes, the Liturgy becomes personal; true and new not through “tomfoolery and banal experiments with words”, but through the courageous entry into the great reality that through Rite is always ahead of

In closing, Pope Benedict documented this issue years ago and the fact that 81% of the folks who went Protestant went because the worship fits their personal tastes and creativity, etc, is basically heresy. It is all about them and how they “feel”


179 posted on 04/20/2011 7:38:06 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: AnalogReigns

I disagree that they become protestants. Every lapsed catholic I know is a non-practicing, fallen-away catholic - and nothing else.


180 posted on 04/20/2011 7:46:22 PM PDT by MayfairFly ("Your total ignorance of that which you profess to teach merits the death penalty.")
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To: deltaromeo11
saved by grace through faith Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8, 2 Timothy 1:9

Nice try but none of those verses says by faithAlone

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." Grace yes but not even a mantion of faith Catholic teaching agress with this.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- again not a mentin of faith but only grace. Still Catholic teaching.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Missing the Word AloneStill agreeing with Catholic teaching.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Still missing he word Alone

James 2:24 is the only verse in the bible that addreses faith alone and that is to negate that false teaching

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Here are a couple of verse for you to chew over:

1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Seems like you need baptism

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.Now we add works to baptism

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? this says that faith is useless with out works, wow that really puts yours out of it.

Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

This says faith is DEAD with out works. Is that the kind of faith you have a DEAD faith?

In Mat 19:17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." we are told to keep the commandments

Matthew Gives use guide lines of how we are to show out faith through works of charity.

Galatians 5:19-21 tells us things we should not do and 5:22-23 tells us good things we should do.

I hope this clears up that misunderstanding of yours

181 posted on 04/20/2011 8:00:58 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: CTrent1564; Campion; HarleyD
Very good! I've bookmarked the link to the definition of ecclesial consumerism.

Only respect for the Liturgies fundamental unspontaneity and pre-existing identity can give us what we hope for: the feast in which the great reality comes to us that we ourselves do not manufacture but receive as gift. This means that “CREATIVITY” cannot be an authentic category for matters Liturgical. In any case, this is a word that developed within a Marxist world view.

This is exactly what I picked up on when I highlighted Reese's comments at the end of the OP: "More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed". HarleyD is asking why do we care whether or not he's a liberal - your comments are far better than mine in explaining why.

The Pope then notes in very strong words, that is why it is absurd that a not insignificant number of people today are trying to reconstruct the Liturgy afresh on the basis of sola scriptura. In these reconstructions, they identify Scripture with the prevailing exegetical opinions thus confusing faith with opinion. Liturgy manufactured this way is based on human words and opinions. It is a house built on sand and remains totally empty, however much human artistry adorns it [i.e. popular music, charismatic preaching style, auditorium style worship space with modern technology, etc.]

I've seen more than a few instances recently of evangelicals longing for, or actively working to integrate liturgy into their worship. They are finding that fellowship and preaching are not enough. Something is lacking. It is those evangelicals who I think will someday make it back to the Catholic Church.

182 posted on 04/20/2011 8:29:46 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: AnalogReigns

Once a person is baptized a Catholic they are always a Catholic — so they can’t become a Protestant.

They may be an inactive Catholic — but once baptized — they are always a Catholic.

(And they will have to answer for abandoning the truth of Jesus Christ.)


183 posted on 04/20/2011 8:42:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns

on’t think the title is correct.

**The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants**

Not by my count. People are swarming to the Catholic Church.


184 posted on 04/20/2011 8:44:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns

I don’t think the title is correct.

**The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants**

Not by my count. People are swarming to the Catholic Church.


185 posted on 04/20/2011 8:44:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns
US Catholic Church finds astonishing variety of people joining this Easter
Thousands Joining [Catholic] Church at Easter in US [Catholic Caucus]
The Journey Home - 4/11/11 - Brian Robbins Convert from Judaism
EWTN - The Journey Home - 4/4/11 - Michael Matthews, former Baptist Minister
My Journey Home To The Catholic Church – Why I Am Converting To Catholicism [Bryan Kemper]
3,400 [Catholic] Converts in Hong Kong
EWTN - Journey Home - Mar. 7 - Tom Peterson (founder of Catholics Come Home)
EWTN Journey Home - Feb. 28 - Jeffry Hendrix - Former United Methodist pastor
Lutheran Convert: Richard Lane [Son of Dick "Night Train" Lane]
Former Planned Parenthood director, now pro-life, to become Catholic [Catholic Caucus]

Journey Home - 1/31/11 - Eben Emerson, Former Church of Christ Minister
Former Planned Parenthood director to become Catholic
Former Planned Parenthood director to convert to Catholicism
Former Planned Parenthood director releases book
Escape from Abortion: A Review of unPlanned by Abby Johnson
From Ignorance to Bliss - My Journey to the Catholic Church [Eric Sammons]
Journey Home - January 10, 2011 - Denise Bossert, Former Presbyterian (conversion story)
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home [Drake and Crystal McCalister]
(why am I Catholic?) Because I Awoke from a Long, Bad Dream [Webster Bull]
From the Ark to the Barque (Hadley Arkes Speaks about His Reception Into the Catholic Church)
Because of the Divine Beauty of the Mass [Tom and Terry Fenwick]
Anglican Priest Comes Home! [Tim Gahles and his wife Vanessa and family]
The Conversion of Alphonse Ratisbonne
The Journey Home: June 7 - Michael Cumbie - Former Charismatic Episcopal clergyman
Former Colombian model shares conversion story [Amada Rosa Pérez ]
The Leadership of Jesus - SF Master Sergeant Mike Cutone (Conversion Story/Book Review/Interview)
Former Mormon looks forward to baptism at Easter vigil [Melissa Reeves]
From Lesbian Atheist to Stay-at-Home Mother of Six: Quebec Journalist Tells Her Story [Brigitte Bedard]
New Catholics a sign of Easter blessing for church (in Oregon)
Protestant Organist Finds Musical Home in the Catholic Church [Gary Marks]

Record number confirmed in Baltimore, despite recent media attacks on Church
An inspiring story of one man’s journey to becoming Catholic[Jeremy Feldbusch]
Can It Be? (Testimony of a former Jehovah's Witness)
Why I am a Catholic[CAROLYN E. DAVIS ]
Man Who "Died" 5 Times Is Becoming Catholic [Jeremy Feldbusch] (Thousands to Enter Church at Easter)
EWTN - The Journey Home - Monday March 22 - Fr. Donald Calloway
Mystery, Meditation, Media: An Interview with Matt Swaim - (Former Presbyterian)
The Reasons for G.K. Chesterton's Conversion
Fr. John Corapi's Conversion story - March 6 at 10pm on EWTN
Responding to the Pope’s Anglican Invitation (priest relates journey from Pentecostalism) [Father Douglas Grandon ]
In the Breaking of the Bread (conversion story of Tim Drake)
Australia's Traditional Anglicans Vote to Convert to Catholicism
Church of England Bishop Converts to Rome [Bishop Paul Richardson}
From Krishna to Christ: The Conversion Testimony of Father Jay Kythe
Ex-Protestant at home in Byzantine Catholic Church {Father James Barrand]
In Iraq, soldier finds a new faith (Muslim converts to Catholic faith)
Why I Left Anglicanism [Fr. Longenecker]
EWTN - The Journey Home - Oct. 26, 2009 - David Twellman, former United Methodist
Senior Anglican bishop reveals he is ready to convert to Roman Catholicism, Rev John Hind
Book: "You Have Not Chosen Me, But I Have Chosen You..." (23 Surprised Converts)

Newt Gingrich on Catholicism and JPII
Mickey Rourke thanks God and Catholic faith for 'second chance'
Catholic convert and political commentator Robert Novak passes away
Why Newt Gingrich Converted to Catholicism
Reading Into the Church [Deal W. Hudson]
Gnarly: from abuse victim, to prostitute, to surfer, to minister [Mary Setterholm]
Cathedral rector’s priestly journey began with early conversion [ Fr. Bob Clements]
The Great Philosopher Who Became Catholic [Mortimer J. Adler]
The Greater Blessings [David Mills]
EWTN - Journey Home - June 22, 2009 at 8pm - Dr. Jay Budziszewski - former Episcopalian
Cardinal says Catholics humbled by Anglicans' decision to join church
Catholic convert from Oregon coast becomes a priest (former Evangelical)
EWTN - The Journey Home - June 15, 2009 - Marcus interviews a Muslim convert [Talat Strokirk]
(All Saints) Sisters Doing It For Themselves (Anglican House converting en masse)
Journey Home to the Catholic Church: I Have Jumped into the Tiber to Swim Across (UK minister, Fr. Jeffrey Steel )
EWTN - Journey Home - June 8, 2009 at 8pm - Fr. Jay Toborowsky, Jewish convert
EWTN - Monday 8pm - Journey Home - Jerry & Yolanda Cleffi (former Assembly of God)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich Opens Up on Catholic Conversion and Embracing 'Overt Christianity'
Mom’s Gift From Pope [Heidi Sierras]

The Journey Home - April 27 @ 8pm - Doug Grandon former Episcopal clergyman
EWTN - The Journey Home - April 20 - Msgr. Keith Barltrop, former Baptist
Journey Home - Monday April 6 - Kenneth Howell, Former Presbyterian minister
Newt Gingrich on his conversion to Catholicism
Gingrich Keeps Quiet on Catholic Conversion (received into Church over the past weekend)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich conversion details; plans release of JP2 documentary
“150,000 new or returning Catholics”
Catholic Church prepares for tens of thousands of U.S. converts
Gingrich to Become Catholic During Easter Season
Faith Journey Leads United Methodist from Pastorate to Catholic Priesthood
From Atheist to Catholic (‘Unshakable’ Rationalist Blogged Her Way Into the Church) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
Former Episcopal bishop discusses his new life as Catholic priest [Father Jeffrey N. Steenson]
The Newt Evangelization: Gingrich to become Catholic
Conservative Episcopal bishop resigned to become Roman Catholic priest (New Mexico) Rev. Jeffrey Steenson
Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
EWTN - The Journey Home - December 1 - Dr. Steven C. Smith (former Willow Creek)
Former Socialist senator who converted to Catholicism calls for end to abortion [Mercedes Aroz]
Young New Yorker leaves police force to become priest [Nicholas Fernandez]
Interesting Deathbed Converts
Hollywood screenwriter returns to Cleveland, turns life over to God [Joe Eszterhas]

A Journey in Prayer {Randy Hain} [Ecumenical]
ECUMENIC] Our Conversion Experience (SDA to Catholic) [Brandon and Tara Ogden]
An open letter to Mr. Stephen A. Baldwin, Actor, and “born again” Christian [ Victor R. Claveau, MJ "
Sick person who suffered accident recounts conversion after traveling to Lourdes [Ecumenical] [Antonio Escobedo Garcia]
Welcome Home! Anglo-Catholic Sisters on the Road to Rome [Ecumenical]
Former Anglican Bishop, Catholic Convert, Jeffrey Steenson on Anglocatholicism [Ecumenical]
Jeffrey Steenson: Why I Became Catholic [Address to Anglican Use Conference]
Tony Snow Dead at 53, A Tribute to a Catholic Journalist [Tony Snow - Catholic Convert]
A Sexual Revolution (One woman's journey from pro-choice atheist to pro-life Catholic) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
C of E bishop will defect to Rome
Assyrian bishop explains his journey into communion with the Catholic Church
Virginia Tech tragedy leads bereaved mother on journey back to faith [Marian Hammaren]
Journey Home - EWTN at 8pm - Dr. William Bales, former Presbyterian Minister [Ecumenical]
First the Protestants, Now the Cults: Will We (the Catholic Church) Be Ready? [Open]
Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year [OPEN]
EWTN - The Journey Home - May 19 - Tom Cabeen, former Jehovah's Witness [Ecumenic]
A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY [James Akin]
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
How the Saints Helped Lead Me Home [Chris Findley]

Who is Mary of Nazareth? [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
EWTN - Journey Home - 4/7/08 - Rosalind Moss - Former Jew & Evangelical Christian
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace [Joan Tussing]
Coming Out of Sodom (Reversion Experience of Once-Active Homosexual) [Eric Hess]
Our Journey Home [Larry and Joetta Lewis]
Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest
Dr. Robert C. Koons (former Lutheran) - Journey Home - Monday 3/31 - Conversion Story
The Story of a Convert from Islam – Baptized by the Pope at St. Peter's [Magdi Cristiano Allam]
How Do We Know It’s the True Church? - Twelve Things to Look For [Fr. Dwight Longenecker]
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation [Robert Sungenis]
New Catholics ‘ on fire’ for faith
New faith pulls Hot Springs family together (Baptists join Catholic Church at Easter Vigil) [Danny Morrison and family
SciFi Writer, John C. Wright, Enters Catholic Church at Easter Vigil (conversion story)[John C. Wright]
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura [Dwight Longenecker’family]
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM [Fr. Brian Harrison]
Pope baptizes prominent Italian Muslim [Magdi Allam]
My Journey of Faith [Marco Fallon]
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church [Robert Koons]
Thousands in U.S. to Join (Catholic) Church - Many Feel They Have Found a Home

TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church [Michael Cumbie]
All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)[John David Young]
Allen Hunt, Methodist Minister ...Journeys Home (Catholic, Re: Real Presence)/a>
The Challenges and Graces of Conversion [Chris Findley]
An Open Letter...from Bishop John Lipscomb [Another TEC Bishop Goes Papist]
Unlocking the Convert's Heart [Marcus Grodi]
His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason
Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying
Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)

The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
laetare (commentary on ordination of married Anglican convert to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) Father Bill Lowe
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]

186 posted on 04/20/2011 8:45:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tiki

Yes, all these articles always come out at Easter time — usually during Holy Week — that’s a good sign for us!


187 posted on 04/20/2011 8:57:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: latina4dubya

We welcome you home at any time. You are always a Catholic. There’s no “former” to it. You may be an inactive Catholic right now, but once baptized, you are always a Catholic.


188 posted on 04/20/2011 8:58:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

well, thank you... i am good friends with another gal who is now a practicing Protestant—she too was raised in the Catholic faith... and our Catholic upbringing is such a bond between us... there is so much about it that we both love and miss... whenever any Protestants say something negative about the Catholic church, we come to its defense... i would not be surprised if one or both of my sons become Catholic someday... i’ve taken them a few times in the last few years on Good Friday... our local Catholic church has the most wonderful Good Friday service...


189 posted on 04/20/2011 10:21:28 PM PDT by latina4dubya ( self-proclaimed tequila snob)
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To: latina4dubya
We would welcome your entire family back at any time. Here's a story about a family coming to the Catholic Church.

New U.S. Catholics Include Former Abortion Clinic Administrator, Marine, Seven Family Members

PS. I have a sneaky feeling that you will all be back someday!

190 posted on 04/20/2011 10:26:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga

So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough?
When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?


191 posted on 04/20/2011 10:30:57 PM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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To: deltaromeo11; FatherofFive
So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough? When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?

Nice try your original contention was "through grace by faith ALONE

I stated that the Bible does not say that and you responded with 4 verses that you claimed proved it. Not a single verse you posted showed faith ALONE.

I posted Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So according to the Bible, faith alone is not enough and with out works it is dead.

Please show me at least one verse that contradicts this.

192 posted on 04/21/2011 4:41:24 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: AnalogReigns
On the last night of his earthly life, Jesus prayed a prayer that stands as a foundation for all Christians:

... And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ... John 17: 19-21.

Come Together …
Sometimes we don’t see eye to eye
We don’t agree; we don’t know why.
But Jesus prayed that we’d be one ….
So for the sake of God’s own Son.
Can we put away our differences,
Lay down our pride? I think it’s time we start turning the tide.
Shall We Gather At The River of Forgiveness?

193 posted on 04/21/2011 4:44:12 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free!)
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To: AnalogReigns
p.s. when you quote someone, you might want to spell his name right? ... DYLAN
194 posted on 04/21/2011 4:54:27 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free!)
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To: CTrent1564
True, but there is a growing schism inside the western Catholics right now. On one hand you have the people who are very liberal and want to pull the church that way, and on the other the more orthodox Catholics who are finding it increasingly difficult in some dioceses.

The brand of Evangelicalism will collapse, and probably in the next five years. But the Catholic church is not going to weather the storm very well either. At best there will be a falling away, but more likely is an open schism. The biggest question IMO is who will blink first.

195 posted on 04/21/2011 5:27:33 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: latina4dubya

Until the peoples of Latin America realize that their wealth is in the Faith, and they return TO LIVE as Catholics, they will continue on the same path of poverty, immorality, illegitimate births, abortions, and crime.

Theodore Roosevelt when he paid a visit to South America at the turn of the 20th century said: “While these countries remain Catholic,” he said, “we will not be able to dominate them.”

Put another way, as long as the people are fallen away Cathoics, CINO’s, Protestants, pagans, athiests, and Marxists, they can be easily dominated. As is the case today.

Outside of the Catholic Faith, and what little remains of the Catholic culture in Latin America, I see little to be proud of. Without the Faith, Latin America is just another Africa.


196 posted on 04/21/2011 6:01:07 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: topcat54
“Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.”

I'd be a little leery of what this guy and his employer consider "best" in regard to what defines a Christian.

197 posted on 04/21/2011 6:36:04 AM PDT by conservonator (Kant spill or type...probably due to a meaningless degree from a lame Midwest school)
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To: redgolum

redgolum:

While the Catholic Church gets most of the press from secular media [that actually is a backhanded compliment from them], there are serious divisions within evangelical Protestant world. Like I noted, I use to read a blog by a Southern Baptist Evangelical who went by “internet monk” and he was writing about the growing “theological divisions within evangelicalism” and wrote an interesting article called “The coming evangelical collapse” In essence, he saw the growing divergence “theologically” in what was, or seemed to be a fairly united camp and pointed out how Mclaren’s and the emergent church movement, vs Rick Warren’s style of evangelisim vs. Piper/RS Sproul, just to name a few were all questioning each other as evangelicals. In the Baptist tradition [I live in the South] there is a growing Reformed movement within it that tends to challenge the more Arminian view that dominated which tends to focus on the “individual making a personal choice for Christ” which sort of does not fit the absolute Predestination model.

More recently, I noticed Protestant blogs really tearing in to eac other over Rob Bell’s book [Roger Olson’s Arminian blog, Scott McKnight’s Jesus Creed, Near Emmaues Blog] and the lines are being drawn. And this is precisely the point, who decides what is true evangelical protestantism, Rob Bell, Piper, Albert Mohler, R.C. Sproul, Mclaren, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Ken Copeland, etc, etc, because the underlying principle of sola scriptura and the elevation of the priesthood of all believers such that each individual ultimately becomes the determiner of what is correct doctrine is why evangelical protestantism and all protestantism will always continue to fracture and nobody can authoritatively say which brand of evangelicalism is correct.

You talk about the Catholic Church and yes, theological liberals since Vatican II have been pushing liberation theology, watered down Liturgy but the tide is turning. But that sort of makes my point, these liberal type Catholics have been yelling and screaming since the 1970’s and unfortunately many dioceses were run by those types but the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI did not budge. The liberals yelled about Humanae Vitae in 1968 and what did John Paul II do in 1993, issue a stronger encyclical entitied “evangelium vitae” which again stressed the Catholic Church’s view on traditional marriage and sexuality, along with artificial contraception and strongly reiterated the Church teaching on abortion and euthanasia.

The liberals were yelling about women’s ordination. Ok, Pope John Paul says Checkmate and issued “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” and firmly reminded our Liberal Catholic friends that ordination is reserved for men.

Liberals were yelling about Pope Benedict’s return to traditional Liturgy so not only did Rome not approve the first editions of the Roman Missal in english, Rome made sure that the english translations were more in line with the Latin so now “consubstantial with the Father” [the Latin version of homousious in the Nicene Creed] will now be said vs “one in being” which while not unorthodox, is an english term that individuals can use for ambiguity. And of course, the Pope issueing the “Summorum Pontificum” (English: Of the Supreme Pontiffs), an Apostolic Letter of Pope Benedict XVI, issued “motu proprio” (i.e. on his own initiative) that removed all restrictions on the Form of the Roman Rite celebrated before Vatican II has also pissed them off as did his “Anglicanorum Coebitus” where Pope Benedict XVI’s “Apostolic Constitution” in response to the petition of “groups of Anglicans” (translation of the Latin title) will allow groups of Anglicans to come into full communion with Rome and bring into it the Anglican form of the Liturgy which is also a Rite derived from The Roman family of Liturgies, that is the Anglican Rite in England is derived from the “Sarum Rite” which was the form of Roman Rite celebrated in England in the 12th to early 16th century before King Henry VIII broke from Rome.

So what does all of this show, well that those 81% who left because they want worship that fits their personal tastes and ideas of Liturgy/worship, ie. that is more creative is an indication that all of those are to some degree, theological liberals in that they have put “their own personal opinions” to the level of deciding what is orthodox Liturgy and worship. Even though some of these folks may have ended up in evangelical churches that may be conservative on abortion, euthansia, same-sex marriage, that 81% figure can’t be ignored as that is still a form of “theological liberalism/heterodoxy” no matter how you slice it.

So the schism you allude to has already happened, there are tons of Catholics who are indiviudal schismatics which is what has been going on. And open schism as you say, I doubt it as the Church has weathered the storms of history for over 2,000 years and it will whether the storm of the heresy of modernism where individuals decide for themselves, sort of like in politics, what they will vote to be true in matters of moral theology in some cases, or Liturgical theology and worship which is the dominate case in the article by the liberal Jesuit Reese in the National Catholic distorter as again evidenced by the 81% statistic.

If we are looking at who is going and who is coming, I will gladly take the leading academics and scholars that have come to Rome and the 100’s of traditional Anglican clergy that have been ordained in the US since 1980 and the group of Anglicans coming into Rome this Easter following the 4 Anglican Bishops that were ordained by in January,
who are now Fr.Andrew Burnham (Ebbsfleet), Msgr. Keith Newton (Richborough), Fr. John Broadhurst (Fulham), and Fr. Edwin Barnes (assistant bishop, Winchester).

These 4 former Anglican Bishops see Liturgy the way Pope Benedict sees it as someting that the Church received from the Apostles and Apostolic Tradition, they are staunch defenders of the Nicene Creed, etc and thus see Christianity and doctrine as well as Liturgy as something thta is fixed, constant, and can’t be arbitrarily messed with.

No, this Catholic likes where Pope Benedict, guided by the Holy Spirit of course, is leading Holy Mother Church.

Regards and Happy pascha/Easter to you.

Sum


198 posted on 04/21/2011 7:45:09 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: verdugo; Campion

Which means, VD, that for most of us we might as well just party because we are all doomed anyway.

Funny, that is often attacked when the Calvinists say it.


199 posted on 04/21/2011 8:24:04 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: verga

Luke 23:40-43 What works were done by the thief on the cross?

Now please answer for me:
So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough? When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?


200 posted on 04/21/2011 10:25:22 AM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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