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The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants
National Catholic Reporter ^ | April 18, 2011 | Thomas Reese

Posted on 04/20/2011 12:07:28 PM PDT by AnalogReigns

The hidden exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants

Apr. 18, 2011

Article Details

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why

By Thomas Reese


The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.

We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.

While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.

The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.

Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.

Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.

Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.

Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.

One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.

Spiritual needs

The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.

In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.

Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.

The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.

People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.

Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.

Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.

Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.

Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.

Becoming Protestant

If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.

Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.

Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.

Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).

What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.

Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.

Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.

Lessons from the data

There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.

First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.

While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.

Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.

The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.

Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.

Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.

The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.

[Jesuit Fr. Thomas J. Reese, former editor in chief of America, is a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University in Washington. He is working on a new book: Survival Guide for Thinking Catholics.]



TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; evangelical; exodus; protestant
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To: deltaromeo11
saved by grace through faith Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:8, 2 Timothy 1:9

Nice try but none of those verses says by faithAlone

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." Grace yes but not even a mantion of faith Catholic teaching agress with this.

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- again not a mentin of faith but only grace. Still Catholic teaching.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Missing the Word AloneStill agreeing with Catholic teaching.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Still missing he word Alone

James 2:24 is the only verse in the bible that addreses faith alone and that is to negate that false teaching

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Here are a couple of verse for you to chew over:

1Pe 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Seems like you need baptism

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.Now we add works to baptism

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? this says that faith is useless with out works, wow that really puts yours out of it.

Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

This says faith is DEAD with out works. Is that the kind of faith you have a DEAD faith?

In Mat 19:17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." we are told to keep the commandments

Matthew Gives use guide lines of how we are to show out faith through works of charity.

Galatians 5:19-21 tells us things we should not do and 5:22-23 tells us good things we should do.

I hope this clears up that misunderstanding of yours

181 posted on 04/20/2011 8:00:58 PM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: CTrent1564; Campion; HarleyD
Very good! I've bookmarked the link to the definition of ecclesial consumerism.

Only respect for the Liturgies fundamental unspontaneity and pre-existing identity can give us what we hope for: the feast in which the great reality comes to us that we ourselves do not manufacture but receive as gift. This means that “CREATIVITY” cannot be an authentic category for matters Liturgical. In any case, this is a word that developed within a Marxist world view.

This is exactly what I picked up on when I highlighted Reese's comments at the end of the OP: "More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed". HarleyD is asking why do we care whether or not he's a liberal - your comments are far better than mine in explaining why.

The Pope then notes in very strong words, that is why it is absurd that a not insignificant number of people today are trying to reconstruct the Liturgy afresh on the basis of sola scriptura. In these reconstructions, they identify Scripture with the prevailing exegetical opinions thus confusing faith with opinion. Liturgy manufactured this way is based on human words and opinions. It is a house built on sand and remains totally empty, however much human artistry adorns it [i.e. popular music, charismatic preaching style, auditorium style worship space with modern technology, etc.]

I've seen more than a few instances recently of evangelicals longing for, or actively working to integrate liturgy into their worship. They are finding that fellowship and preaching are not enough. Something is lacking. It is those evangelicals who I think will someday make it back to the Catholic Church.

182 posted on 04/20/2011 8:29:46 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: AnalogReigns

Once a person is baptized a Catholic they are always a Catholic — so they can’t become a Protestant.

They may be an inactive Catholic — but once baptized — they are always a Catholic.

(And they will have to answer for abandoning the truth of Jesus Christ.)

183 posted on 04/20/2011 8:42:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns

on’t think the title is correct.

**The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants**

Not by my count. People are swarming to the Catholic Church.

184 posted on 04/20/2011 8:44:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns

I don’t think the title is correct.

**The Hidden Exodus: Catholics becoming Protestants**

Not by my count. People are swarming to the Catholic Church.

185 posted on 04/20/2011 8:44:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: AnalogReigns
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EWTN - The Journey Home - Monday March 22 - Fr. Donald Calloway
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Fr. John Corapi's Conversion story - March 6 at 10pm on EWTN
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EWTN - The Journey Home - Oct. 26, 2009 - David Twellman, former United Methodist
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Gnarly: from abuse victim, to prostitute, to surfer, to minister [Mary Setterholm]
Cathedral rector’s priestly journey began with early conversion [ Fr. Bob Clements]
The Great Philosopher Who Became Catholic [Mortimer J. Adler]
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EWTN - Journey Home - June 22, 2009 at 8pm - Dr. Jay Budziszewski - former Episcopalian
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EWTN - The Journey Home - June 15, 2009 - Marcus interviews a Muslim convert [Talat Strokirk]
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Journey Home to the Catholic Church: I Have Jumped into the Tiber to Swim Across (UK minister, Fr. Jeffrey Steel )
EWTN - Journey Home - June 8, 2009 at 8pm - Fr. Jay Toborowsky, Jewish convert
EWTN - Monday 8pm - Journey Home - Jerry & Yolanda Cleffi (former Assembly of God)
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EWTN - The Journey Home - April 20 - Msgr. Keith Barltrop, former Baptist
Journey Home - Monday April 6 - Kenneth Howell, Former Presbyterian minister
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Former Episcopal bishop discusses his new life as Catholic priest [Father Jeffrey N. Steenson]
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Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
EWTN - The Journey Home - December 1 - Dr. Steven C. Smith (former Willow Creek)
Former Socialist senator who converted to Catholicism calls for end to abortion [Mercedes Aroz]
Young New Yorker leaves police force to become priest [Nicholas Fernandez]
Interesting Deathbed Converts
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A Journey in Prayer {Randy Hain} [Ecumenical]
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Sick person who suffered accident recounts conversion after traveling to Lourdes [Ecumenical] [Antonio Escobedo Garcia]
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The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
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Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
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The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
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Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]

186 posted on 04/20/2011 8:45:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tiki

Yes, all these articles always come out at Easter time — usually during Holy Week — that’s a good sign for us!

187 posted on 04/20/2011 8:57:03 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: latina4dubya

We welcome you home at any time. You are always a Catholic. There’s no “former” to it. You may be an inactive Catholic right now, but once baptized, you are always a Catholic.

188 posted on 04/20/2011 8:58:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

well, thank you... i am good friends with another gal who is now a practicing Protestant—she too was raised in the Catholic faith... and our Catholic upbringing is such a bond between us... there is so much about it that we both love and miss... whenever any Protestants say something negative about the Catholic church, we come to its defense... i would not be surprised if one or both of my sons become Catholic someday... i’ve taken them a few times in the last few years on Good Friday... our local Catholic church has the most wonderful Good Friday service...

189 posted on 04/20/2011 10:21:28 PM PDT by latina4dubya ( self-proclaimed tequila snob)
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To: latina4dubya
We would welcome your entire family back at any time. Here's a story about a family coming to the Catholic Church.

New U.S. Catholics Include Former Abortion Clinic Administrator, Marine, Seven Family Members

PS. I have a sneaky feeling that you will all be back someday!

190 posted on 04/20/2011 10:26:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga

So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough?
When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?

191 posted on 04/20/2011 10:30:57 PM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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To: deltaromeo11; FatherofFive
So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough? When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?

Nice try your original contention was "through grace by faith ALONE

I stated that the Bible does not say that and you responded with 4 verses that you claimed proved it. Not a single verse you posted showed faith ALONE.

I posted Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So according to the Bible, faith alone is not enough and with out works it is dead.

Please show me at least one verse that contradicts this.

192 posted on 04/21/2011 4:41:24 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: AnalogReigns
On the last night of his earthly life, Jesus prayed a prayer that stands as a foundation for all Christians:

... And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ... John 17: 19-21.

Come Together …
Sometimes we don’t see eye to eye
We don’t agree; we don’t know why.
But Jesus prayed that we’d be one ….
So for the sake of God’s own Son.
Can we put away our differences,
Lay down our pride? I think it’s time we start turning the tide.
Shall We Gather At The River of Forgiveness?

193 posted on 04/21/2011 4:44:12 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free!)
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To: AnalogReigns
p.s. when you quote someone, you might want to spell his name right? ... DYLAN
194 posted on 04/21/2011 4:54:27 AM PDT by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free!)
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To: CTrent1564
True, but there is a growing schism inside the western Catholics right now. On one hand you have the people who are very liberal and want to pull the church that way, and on the other the more orthodox Catholics who are finding it increasingly difficult in some dioceses.

The brand of Evangelicalism will collapse, and probably in the next five years. But the Catholic church is not going to weather the storm very well either. At best there will be a falling away, but more likely is an open schism. The biggest question IMO is who will blink first.

195 posted on 04/21/2011 5:27:33 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: latina4dubya

Until the peoples of Latin America realize that their wealth is in the Faith, and they return TO LIVE as Catholics, they will continue on the same path of poverty, immorality, illegitimate births, abortions, and crime.

Theodore Roosevelt when he paid a visit to South America at the turn of the 20th century said: “While these countries remain Catholic,” he said, “we will not be able to dominate them.”

Put another way, as long as the people are fallen away Cathoics, CINO’s, Protestants, pagans, athiests, and Marxists, they can be easily dominated. As is the case today.

Outside of the Catholic Faith, and what little remains of the Catholic culture in Latin America, I see little to be proud of. Without the Faith, Latin America is just another Africa.

196 posted on 04/21/2011 6:01:07 AM PDT by verdugo ("You can't lie, even to save the World")
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To: topcat54
“Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.”

I'd be a little leery of what this guy and his employer consider "best" in regard to what defines a Christian.

197 posted on 04/21/2011 6:36:04 AM PDT by conservonator (Kant spill or type...probably due to a meaningless degree from a lame Midwest school)
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To: redgolum


While the Catholic Church gets most of the press from secular media [that actually is a backhanded compliment from them], there are serious divisions within evangelical Protestant world. Like I noted, I use to read a blog by a Southern Baptist Evangelical who went by “internet monk” and he was writing about the growing “theological divisions within evangelicalism” and wrote an interesting article called “The coming evangelical collapse” In essence, he saw the growing divergence “theologically” in what was, or seemed to be a fairly united camp and pointed out how Mclaren’s and the emergent church movement, vs Rick Warren’s style of evangelisim vs. Piper/RS Sproul, just to name a few were all questioning each other as evangelicals. In the Baptist tradition [I live in the South] there is a growing Reformed movement within it that tends to challenge the more Arminian view that dominated which tends to focus on the “individual making a personal choice for Christ” which sort of does not fit the absolute Predestination model.

More recently, I noticed Protestant blogs really tearing in to eac other over Rob Bell’s book [Roger Olson’s Arminian blog, Scott McKnight’s Jesus Creed, Near Emmaues Blog] and the lines are being drawn. And this is precisely the point, who decides what is true evangelical protestantism, Rob Bell, Piper, Albert Mohler, R.C. Sproul, Mclaren, Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, Ken Copeland, etc, etc, because the underlying principle of sola scriptura and the elevation of the priesthood of all believers such that each individual ultimately becomes the determiner of what is correct doctrine is why evangelical protestantism and all protestantism will always continue to fracture and nobody can authoritatively say which brand of evangelicalism is correct.

You talk about the Catholic Church and yes, theological liberals since Vatican II have been pushing liberation theology, watered down Liturgy but the tide is turning. But that sort of makes my point, these liberal type Catholics have been yelling and screaming since the 1970’s and unfortunately many dioceses were run by those types but the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI did not budge. The liberals yelled about Humanae Vitae in 1968 and what did John Paul II do in 1993, issue a stronger encyclical entitied “evangelium vitae” which again stressed the Catholic Church’s view on traditional marriage and sexuality, along with artificial contraception and strongly reiterated the Church teaching on abortion and euthanasia.

The liberals were yelling about women’s ordination. Ok, Pope John Paul says Checkmate and issued “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis” and firmly reminded our Liberal Catholic friends that ordination is reserved for men.

Liberals were yelling about Pope Benedict’s return to traditional Liturgy so not only did Rome not approve the first editions of the Roman Missal in english, Rome made sure that the english translations were more in line with the Latin so now “consubstantial with the Father” [the Latin version of homousious in the Nicene Creed] will now be said vs “one in being” which while not unorthodox, is an english term that individuals can use for ambiguity. And of course, the Pope issueing the “Summorum Pontificum” (English: Of the Supreme Pontiffs), an Apostolic Letter of Pope Benedict XVI, issued “motu proprio” (i.e. on his own initiative) that removed all restrictions on the Form of the Roman Rite celebrated before Vatican II has also pissed them off as did his “Anglicanorum Coebitus” where Pope Benedict XVI’s “Apostolic Constitution” in response to the petition of “groups of Anglicans” (translation of the Latin title) will allow groups of Anglicans to come into full communion with Rome and bring into it the Anglican form of the Liturgy which is also a Rite derived from The Roman family of Liturgies, that is the Anglican Rite in England is derived from the “Sarum Rite” which was the form of Roman Rite celebrated in England in the 12th to early 16th century before King Henry VIII broke from Rome.

So what does all of this show, well that those 81% who left because they want worship that fits their personal tastes and ideas of Liturgy/worship, ie. that is more creative is an indication that all of those are to some degree, theological liberals in that they have put “their own personal opinions” to the level of deciding what is orthodox Liturgy and worship. Even though some of these folks may have ended up in evangelical churches that may be conservative on abortion, euthansia, same-sex marriage, that 81% figure can’t be ignored as that is still a form of “theological liberalism/heterodoxy” no matter how you slice it.

So the schism you allude to has already happened, there are tons of Catholics who are indiviudal schismatics which is what has been going on. And open schism as you say, I doubt it as the Church has weathered the storms of history for over 2,000 years and it will whether the storm of the heresy of modernism where individuals decide for themselves, sort of like in politics, what they will vote to be true in matters of moral theology in some cases, or Liturgical theology and worship which is the dominate case in the article by the liberal Jesuit Reese in the National Catholic distorter as again evidenced by the 81% statistic.

If we are looking at who is going and who is coming, I will gladly take the leading academics and scholars that have come to Rome and the 100’s of traditional Anglican clergy that have been ordained in the US since 1980 and the group of Anglicans coming into Rome this Easter following the 4 Anglican Bishops that were ordained by in January,
who are now Fr.Andrew Burnham (Ebbsfleet), Msgr. Keith Newton (Richborough), Fr. John Broadhurst (Fulham), and Fr. Edwin Barnes (assistant bishop, Winchester).

These 4 former Anglican Bishops see Liturgy the way Pope Benedict sees it as someting that the Church received from the Apostles and Apostolic Tradition, they are staunch defenders of the Nicene Creed, etc and thus see Christianity and doctrine as well as Liturgy as something thta is fixed, constant, and can’t be arbitrarily messed with.

No, this Catholic likes where Pope Benedict, guided by the Holy Spirit of course, is leading Holy Mother Church.

Regards and Happy pascha/Easter to you.


198 posted on 04/21/2011 7:45:09 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: verdugo; Campion

Which means, VD, that for most of us we might as well just party because we are all doomed anyway.

Funny, that is often attacked when the Calvinists say it.

199 posted on 04/21/2011 8:24:04 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: verga

Luke 23:40-43 What works were done by the thief on the cross?

Now please answer for me:
So are you working your way into heaven? What Jesus did was not enough? When will you know that you have done enough to be granted entry?

200 posted on 04/21/2011 10:25:22 AM PDT by deltaromeo11 (Isaiah 5:20)
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