Posted on 04/20/2011 12:07:28 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
Your arguement is with the people that misinterpreted the Bible for you and don't let you read it on your own.
Does your faith have works? How do you know that your faith is not dead?
You keep trying to put the burden of proof on me but it is on you becasue you mace the postive assertion, which I disproved with less than ten verses. You have yet to refute even one of mine.
And the reason is that you are terrified that the Catholic Church has the truth and your little cult well just isn't the Pillar and fouhndation of truth.
There is an astonishing amount of willful blindness involved in trumpeting a “Biblical message” (faith alone) that is directly contradicted in its only Scriptural reference.
There is an astonishing amount of willful blindness involved in when claiming salvation by faith alone is only found in one scriptural reference and that it is contradicted in that reference:
Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NOT of WORKS, lest anyone should boast.”
Romans 11:5-6 “Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”
Galatians 2:16,21 “knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”
Yes faith without works is dead, which means anyone who claims to have faith in Christ but does not produce good fruit does not have a genuine faith. James said in chapter 2 that he shows his faith by his works - his works prove he has faith. Therefore, the genuine faith comes first which leads to salvation and produces good fruit in the life of the believer.
“Works of the law” means something.
You can quote Scripture to try to negate other Scripture, but it’s not a very convincing argument.
If instead of caricaturing Catholics as Pelagian, an honest attempt to understand the Catholic view of the economy of salvation were made, then you would see why we do not believe that works (and certainly not “works of the law”) save us.
But where is the fun in that?
I’m not trying to negate other scripture...I’m showing that scripture clearly teaches that God’s grace alone is sufficient for salvation. If one has genuine faith then they will be declared righteous by the grace of God.
I’m also not trying to caricature Catholics, so quit trying to mind read, which is against the rules of this forum. I was merely responding to your post that implied that scripture doesn’t teach that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
Catholics agree that salvation is of grace alone.
We do not believe in faith alone because it is refuted in Scripture.
Yeah baby . . . yeah!!!
If you believe the Bible is inerrant and factual (instead of nothing but spiritual allegory), then the Catholic Church doesn't want you.
I'm sure the bishops will be quite happy to shepherd a smaller church so long as it's made up exclusively of higher critical and evolutionist intellectuals. Looks like it's going to be a leaner, meaner church after all . . . just one of the Left!
You have yet to demonstrate the genuine faith alone is all that is required for salvation. You claim that faith alone is refuted by scripture but haven’t backed up your statement. Are you claiming that James 2 refutes faith alone?? As has been pointed out - James is merely saying that genuine faith, and not a superficial faith, is needed in order to receive God’s grace.
Scripture is clear that salvation is a gift that can’t be earned. Noone can boast about earning salvation by the things that they do, only by receiving the grace of God and being born again can one enter the Kingdom of God.
correction: “You have yet to demonstrate that genuine faith alone is NOT all that is required for salvation.”
Are you claiming that James 2 refutes faith alone??
That's what it says. It's not a "claim" at all.
Read what catholic scholar Thomas Leahy had to say about James 2:24
“As is clear from context, this does not mean that genuine faith is insufficient for justification, but that faith unaccompanied by works is not genuine” [Thomas W. Leahy, S.J. in Raymond Edward Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmeyer and Roland Edmund Murphy, The Jerome Biblical Commentary, (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1968), in loc.].
I’m not impressed by one line which only seems to appear on Protestant websites. The fact is, if you understand James, that true faith is never alone. So claiming justification by “faith alone” is nonsense.
Don’t have to go to church if Protestant however you can’t get drunk and raffle off stuff at church if Protestant.
I guess it’s a wash.
It seems that we are basically saying something similar....
You stated, “The fact is, if you understand James, that true faith is never alone.”
I agree 100% - true faith always leads to good works. The good works are evidence that one is a true believer. “Faith alone” really means “true faith alone”, which is always accompanied by works.
The works in and of themselves do not save a person, but merely demonstrate a person is a true believer. Therefore, salvation is by grace by true faith alone. Works don’t enter the equation for salvation - they only demonstrate that one has true faith.
What works were done by the thief on the cross? does answer your question.
The answer is none. He could not do any works, but he was justified by the Son.
I know you can’t answer that question.
Are you trying to save me or are you trying to defeat me?
Please keep in mind that Raymond Brown is a Catholic in name only.
I already corrected you, and am waiting patiently for yiou to show me a singl;e vesrse that says Faith alone is enough. You keep claiming the thief on the cross, but you don't show anything with the phrase "faith alone" and as I and other have shown time and time again the only time it is mentioned is to negate that false teaching you.
Try this: when Jesus Said "This is my Body" was it really his body or are you going to say the Bible is wrong about that as well?.
Now if you can't show me a verse that contains the phrase "faith alone" supporting you then don't bother responding.
I will acknowledge that the words “faith alone” do not appear if you can acknowledge that Ephesians 2:8-9 says “faith, not by works”
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
Are you sure you’re saved?
Have you done enough works yet to get to heaven?
Thank you for stating the Catholic Position So clearly. So when are you going to start RCIA classes? The rest of your post is a non sequitor and is being ignored.
So then how is a Catholic justified? What must I do?
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