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A Blueprint for a Monarchy in America [How Two Catholic Monarchists view the rest of us Americans]
The Altar and Throne Monarchy Site ^ | December 19, 2008 | Nick

Posted on 05/03/2011 12:17:26 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

A reader recently sent me a constitution he drew up for a monarchy that would be applicable for the United States, where no one religion stands in the majority. I found his hypothetical constitution intriguing, and was impressed by the depth he went into. While I do not necessarily endorse his proposal in its entirety, I did want to post it for my readers to look over and to comment upon it. (Note: the author of this constitution wished to remain anonymous due to "the current political situation.")


The People

Recognized Churches Must Adhere to the Following Precepts:

Belief in a single God, the Father Almighty, who is eternal and unchanging, the sole creator and master of the universe
Belief in Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, who is co-eternal with the Father, partaking fully in both the human and divine essence
Profession of the Trinity: belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist as three separate and distinct persons while sharing a single essence
Belief that salvation comes only through the redemptive sacrifice of Christ
Belief in the literal existence of Heaven and Hell
Belief in the Revealed Truth of Scripture
Promotion of Proper Morality: condemnation of abortion, euthanasia, fornication, polygamy, homosexuality, bestiality and artificial birth control
Rejection of Modern Heresies: condemnation of Marxism, racism and/or ethnocentricism, dispensationalism, relativism, pantheism, and pacifism
Recognition that the mandate to rule comes from God, not popular acclamation
Possession of 10 million adherents within imperial domains

Subjects

While the constitution allows for complete freedom of religion for all inhabitants of the imperial domains, not all religions are equal in the eyes of the state. Subjects are those people who do not belong to Recognized Churches; they are divided into those with religion (Moral Theists) and those without it (Heathens), both groups are free to practice their belief systems in privacy and without interference from imperial authorities. Moral Theists may vote for and hold the office of Tribune of Subjects, an officer who represents them in the Senate. Both Moral Theists and Heathens are barred from all other elections and elected offices, the military officer corps, teaching positions at government schools and the practice of law.

Those Without Religion (Heathens)
Atheists
Those Apathetic to Religion
Pagans, Muslims, Wiccans, New Age Spiritualists, Satanists
Reformed/Progressive Jews
Heretics: Pseudo-Christians not conforming to any one the first nine precepts

Those With Religion (Moral Theists)
Monotheists/Deists: must conform to seventh, eighth, and ninth precepts
Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Zoroastrians
Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhists
Orthodox/Traditional Jews
Independent Christians: Christian sects with less than 10 million adherents
Citizens

Citizens are those people who belong to Recognized Churches; the constitution recognizes two classes of citizens: plebeians and patricians. Though all inhabitants of the imperial domains stand equal before the law, the extent to which one can participate in political life is determined partly by one’s social standing. Citizens, however, possess rights that Subjects do not: these include the freedom of assembly, the right to imperial petition, freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Children born to Citizen Families attain citizenship with a proclamation of faith and featly on their 18th birthday in the presence of the County Magistrate; those who decline to make this statement are demoted to Heathen Status.

Plebeians

Plebeians, or commoners, are citizens who hold no official titles; they are divided into two classes: Proletarians and Equestrians. Citizenship is a gift, not a right, and is awarded to those who conform to certain moral standards. As such, Plebeians may be stripped of their status by judgment of the Country Magistrate should they engage in manifest public sin.

Proletarians

Proletarians are Plebeians who hold taxable assets whose net worth is less than $500,000; they are barred from all elected offices and may only vote for one official: the Tribune of Plebeians, who must be a member of the Equestrian class.

Equestrians

Equestrians are Plebeians who hold taxable assets whose net worth is more than $500,000; they may vote in any election and hold any elected office. One may be born to the Equestrian class if one’s father is also an Equestrian but this status may be lost if they fail to accumulate $300,000 worth of taxable assets before their 35th birthday. All officers in the military automatically attain Equestrian status upon their commission which cannot be lost regardless of the value of their assets.

Patricians

Patricians, or nobles, are Catholic citizens whose families have been endowed with titles and estates by the Emperor or higher orders of nobility; they are divided into three classes: Dominates, Magnates and the Imperial Family. Both the imperial and provincial governments include appointed offices which are reserved exclusively for Patricians. To be born into the Patrician class, one’s father or grandfather must also have been a Patrician; one’s status as a Dominate or Magnate is inherited from their father or grandfather as well. As with Plebeians, one can also lose Patrician status if they engage in manifest public sin; this demotion results in automatic Heathen status with the loss of all endowed property and inheritance rights.

Dominates (Lords)

Dominates, or lesser lords, are Patricians who have been ennobled by individual Magnates; these appointments must be ratified by the provincial Council of Magnates. Certain positions at the provincial and imperial levels of government are reserved exclusively for Dominates; among these are those of Censor, Legate and Lictor. Dominate status may be revoked, along with all hereditary titles and property rites, should the individual be found guilty of manifest public sin by the regional Council of Magnates.

Magnates (Great Lords)

Magnates, or great lords, are Patricians who have been ennobled by the Emperor in recognition of their extraordinary achievements or exemplary service to the state. Certain positions at the imperial level of government are reserved exclusively for Magnates; they alone are permitted to assume the offices of Aedile, Dux, Quaestor, Senator and Princeps Senatus. All senior Magnates in a province also belong to the Council of Magnates, responsible for electing Senators to represent them in the Comitia Magnus; the leader of this body is given the honorary title of Dux. Magnate status may be revoked, along with all hereditary titles and property rites, should the individual be found guilty of manifest public sin by judgment of the Emperor.

Imperial Family

The Imperial Family consists of the Emperor, his wife, his children and grandchildren, his siblings and their spouses, and their children and grandchildren. These people possess Magnate status at birth and may be appointed to any position normally reserved for members of that class. Upon his ascension to the throne, the Emperor designates his own successor from among his sons, brothers, nephews, uncles or male cousins over the age of 25; a new successor may be chosen at any time when circumstances demand it. This choice must be verified by the Council of Duxi and the consent of the Papal Tribune.

The Government

The imperial government operates at five levels: municipalities, counties, provinces, eparchies, and the imperial government; with the exception of eparchies, at every level there are both elected and appointed offices open to members of the Plebeian or Patrician class. Any official may be removed from office should he be found guilty of manifest public sin, which could also result in the loss of his citizen status; the court which tries him is dependent on the status of his elected or appointed office. With the exception of Tribunes, only Equestrians and Patricians may vote in elections or hold elected offices; the particulars are listed below.

Municipal Offices

Mayor

The Mayor acts as the municipal executive and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; terms of service, executive powers, age restrictions, and election particulars are determined by individual provinces and municipalities.


Municipal Councilor

Municipal Councilors act as advisors to the Mayor and may be members of the Equestrian or Patrician class; terms of service, councilor powers, numbers, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces and municipalities.

Prefect

The Prefect acts as the municipal judge and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; he is appointed by the county Magistrate and has the power to appoint further municipal judges beneath him if necessity demands it. The Prefect serves for a term of five years and may be reappointed indefinitely though the associate judges he creates may be dismissed at any time. Prefects must be at least 35 years of age at the time of their first appointment.

County Offices

Magistrate

The Magistrate acts as both the county executive and judge and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class. He is responsible for appointing municipal Prefects, approving mayoral appointments, overseeing public services and facilities and hearing appeals from municipal courts, deciding which cases will be heard by higher courts. The Magistrate is appointed by the Governor with the approval of the Censor and serves for a term of five years; he must be at least 35 years of age at the time of his first appointment and may be reappointed indefinitely. Other powers and duties are determined by individual provinces.

Provincial Offices

Governor

The Governor acts as the provincial executive and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; he is elected by popular vote and must have held county or municipal offices prior to his election as Governor. His primary duties are to appoint county Magistrates and oversee public facilities and services. Other terms of service, powers, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces.

Provincial Councilors

Provincial Councilors act as provincial legislative officials and belong to a body called the Provincial Council; they may be members of the Equestrian or Patrician class and are elected by popular vote in proportion to the population of individual counties within the state. The powers of the Provincial Council, numbers of councilors, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces.

Praetor

Praetors act as the provincial judges and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; they are appointed by the Censor to a ten year term and must have held county or municipal offices prior to their appointment to Praetor. Three Praetors sit on the High Court of each province and are responsible for hearing appeals from lower courts.

Censor

The Censor acts as the eparchial representative in each province and must be a member of the Dominate class; he is appointed to a life term by the Viceroy and is subject to no age restrictions. Censors have the power to appoint Praetors and Dominate Triumviri and veto any law passed by the Provincial Council or any decree from the Governor; their decisions may be appealed to and overturned by the Viceroy.

Eparchial Offices

Viceroy

The Viceroy acts as the imperial representative in each eparchy; he must be a member of the Magnate class and is appointed by the Emperor with the approval of the Senate. The Viceroy holds the position for life and has the power overturn the decision of any Censor in his eparchy and recommend cases for the Legate Court to hear. He presides over meetings of the Provincial Councils within his eparchy and has the responsibility of appointing Legates and Censors.

Legate

Legates act as eparchial judges and must be members of the Dominate class; they are appointed by the Viceroy and serve for life. The five Legates serving on each eparchial Supreme Court are subject to no age restrictions and have the responsibility of hearing appeals from lower courts; they are not obligated to accept every case.

Dux

The Dux is the mostly honorary position held by the leader of each of the eparchial Councils of Magnates according to their own parliamentary rules. The position is held for life; each Dux is also a de facto member of the Council of Duxi, responsible for electing the Princeps Senatus, approving Quaestor appointments and determining imperial succession.

Imperial Offices

Quaestor

Seven Quaestors, or judges, are appointed by the Emperor to officiate on the Imperial Court; all seven must be chosen from among the Magnate class and are subject to no age restrictions. It is their duty to hear appeals from lower courts, though they are not obligated to hear every case; Quaestor appointments, however, must be ratified by the Papal Tribune and the Council of Duxi. Quaestors serve for life and the longest-serving member of the Imperial Court is granted the honorary rank of Quaestor Magnus; at official functions, the Quaestor Magnus carries the Hand of Justice, symbolizing the triumph of law over chaos and the subservience of human law to the divine order.

Triumvir

Three Triumviri represent each province in the Comitia Minor; of these three representatives, two must be Equestrians and one must be a Dominate. All Triumviri must be at least 25 years of age. Equestrian Triumviri are elected by a majority vote of the provincial legislature with the approval of the Viceroy while Dominate Triumviri are appointed by the Censor of each province; they occupy their office for a term of five years and may be reelected or reappointed indefinitely.

Lictor

Elected by the Dominate Triumviri of the Comitia Minor; those holding the rank of Lictor must be Dominates themselves and at least 35 years of age. In this largely ceremonial role, the Lictor presides over all meetings of the Comitia Minor and carries the Fasces of State, symbolizing imperial power, at all official functions.

Senator

Two Senators are elected by each Council of Magnates according to their own parliamentary rules. Those holding the rank of Senator must be Magnates themselves and at least 35 years of age. Senators are barred from holding any other governmental office and serve in the Comitia Major for life.

Princeps Senatus

Elected by the Council of Duxi according to their own parliamentary rules; the one holding this office must be a Magnate himself and a Dux. The Princeps Senatus is subject to no age restrictions and holds the title for life. It is his duty to preside over all meetings of the Comitia Major and to cast the deciding vote in the event of a tie. At official functions, the Princeps Senatus is granted the honor of carrying the Sword of State, representing the duty of government to protect its people.

Tribune of Subjects

Elected by a popular vote of Moral Theists over the age of 18; the one holding this office must be a Moral Theist himself and be at least 35 years of age. To attain the position, candidates for this office must gain a simple majority of votes; in the event that one of the candidates fails to achieve a majority, another election will be held between the two leading contenders. The Tribune of Subjects serves a term of five years and may be reelected indefinitely; he has the power to veto any legislation he feels is detrimental to his constituents, but this veto can be overridden by a two-thirds majority vote in the Comitia Major or by imperial proclamation.

Tribune of Plebeians

Elected by a popular vote of all Plebeians, both Proletarians and Equestrians, over the age of 18; the one holding this office must be an Equestrian himself and at least 35 years of age. To attain the position, candidates for this office must gain a simple majority of votes; in the event that one of the candidates fails to achieve a majority, another election will be held between the two leading contenders. The Tribune of Plebeians serves a term of five years and may be reelected indefinitely; he has the power to veto any legislation he feels is detrimental to his constituents, but this veto can be overridden by a four-fifths majority vote in the Comitia Major or by imperial proclamation.

Papal Tribune

The Papal Tribune is appointed by the Supreme Pontiff and holds the position for life; the one holding this office must be a Catholic clergyman holding the rank of bishop. The Papal Tribune has the power to veto any legislation that betrays the principles of Christian morality; this veto is final and may only be overturned by imperial decree.

Imperator (Emperor)

The Emperor acts as the chief executive; his succession must be ratified by the previous Emperor, the Council of Duxi, and the Papal Tribune. It is his responsibility to defend the rule of law and Christian Civilization from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Though his power to declare war, appoint certain officials, and use state monies is abrogated by the Senate or the nobility, the Emperor may overrule the decision of any court, create new Magnates and preside over all meetings of the full Senate.

The author of this also gave these additional disclaimers:

I have divided the people living in any hypothetical imperial realm into subjects and citizens, based on their religious creed. Basically anyone adhering to the seventh, eighth and ninth precepts is considered a moral theist, as are Christian groups which conform to all the other nine precepts but have less than 10 million members. Only state-recognized churches receive tax-free status; by requiring 10 million members for this I hope to force the myriad of independent Protestant churches to combine into larger organizations with a more strict emphasis on doctrinal orthodoxy. Catholics of course get preeminent status in the government. As you can see, people may lose their citizen status or office should they be found guilty of manifest public sin.

Upon their 18th birthday, young people from citizen families will be required to take an oath in which they adhere to the first nine precepts; those converting to one of the Recognized Churches can apply for citizenship and, after a period of political and spiritual instruction, will be administered the same oath. Young people from citizen families who refuse to take the oath will be demoted to heathen status, as are people who leave one of the Recognized Churches; this may be appealed only after 10 years and the testimony of credible witnesses attesting to that person's conversion.

The government operates on five levels: municipalities, counties, provinces, eparchies, and the imperial government. The day to day governance is mostly conducted at the municipal/county/province level by elected officials. The eparchies are mostly judicial units consisting of several provinces designed to provide direct imperial oversight of lower offices. This system tries to allow people to run their own affairs as much as possible with limited interference but nonetheless has safeguards to ensure that new laws passed do not conflict with Christian morality. Hence the division between citizens and subjects/nobles and commoners. You'll also notice a distinction between Proletarians and Equestrians based on wealth; I do not hate the poor, but I do recognize that people without wealth and education tend to support destructive policies, hence the reason they are banned from all but one election.

The Imperial Senate is the legislative body of the Empire and is divided into an upper house (Comitia Major) and a lower house (Comitia Minor). The latter is at least 1/3 noble at all times, limiting the power of commoners to make direct policy at the highest level of government. The Tribunes exist to ensure that the people's voice is at least heard, but they can still be overruled by the Comitia Major. Basically the Comitia Major has the powers we Americans would associate with the Senate while the Comitia Minor is comperable to the House of Representatives.

Officially the Emperor's powers are comparable to that of a US President insofar as his ablility to declare war, raise taxes, and appoint certain officials is concerned; but he is capable of exerting far more influence over the government should he have the backing of the Church or other circumstances demand it.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: calvinistshate; catholicmonarchy; greatcatholicmonarch; monarchism
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To: Rashputin

Hmmm... I wonder why they aren’t on that thread.


101 posted on 05/03/2011 3:32:03 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Gamecock

Read your history. Hitler had no religious faith. He reluctantly put up with those around him who were pagans. But NAZI Germany was mostly Protestant.

The belief that Hitler was Catholic is willfully ignorant.


102 posted on 05/03/2011 3:33:51 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Shemp was the Fourth Stooge of the Apocalypse.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

I have to say, that yopios graphic is a classic, and, although I may not agree with what he wrote on that post, he seems to be a very good writer.


103 posted on 05/03/2011 3:34:22 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Gamecock
"Read your history. Hitler was a Roman Catholic."

No, you should read your history. You are looking through the wrong end of the microscope.

Like many of the more malicious posters in the Religion Forum, Hitler left the Church at an early age and pursued a darker belief system. He never looked back.

Now take a look at the composition and doctrines of the German Protestant Church that was rewarded with the Cabinet Level office of Reichbishop for their active support of Nazi policies. You might also want to look at the numbers of Catholic clergy who were exterminated in concentration camps at the same time.

104 posted on 05/03/2011 3:35:38 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Gamecock

Reading is Fundamental

105 posted on 05/03/2011 3:38:20 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Shemp was the Fourth Stooge of the Apocalypse.)
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To: Alex Murphy

The horror! If this happens, I will eat a hat of your choosing. If not (in say, ten years), you must eat any UFO I manage to dig up outside of Roswell.


106 posted on 05/03/2011 3:39:17 PM PDT by Puddleglum (dance with the horse that brung ya)
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To: sayuncledave
In his childhood, Hitler had admired the pomp of Catholic ritual and the hierarchical organisation of the clergy. Later, he drew on these elements, organizing his party along hierarchical lines and including liturgical forms into events or using phraseology taken from hymns. Because of these liturgical elements, Hitler's Messiah-like status and the ideology's all-encompassing nature, the Nazi movement is sometimes termed a "political religion".
Source Wikipedia


107 posted on 05/03/2011 3:40:09 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Natural Law

It’s like Whack-A-Mole around here.

We’ve gone from the article written by a couple of guys into pagentry after the royal wedding into molestation, and now Nazis!

How utterly predictable!

What next the Pope wears Prada?

Catholics are cannibals?

The Virgin wasn’t as holy as that sodomite, Calvin?

It’s boring. This place is as intellectually stimulating as a trip to Jersy City.


108 posted on 05/03/2011 3:40:18 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: sayuncledave
In his childhood, Hitler had admired the pomp of Catholic ritual and the hierarchical organisation of the clergy. Later, he drew on these elements, organizing his party along hierarchical lines and including liturgical forms into events or using phraseology taken from hymns. Because of these liturgical elements, Hitler's Messiah-like status and the ideology's all-encompassing nature, the Nazi movement is sometimes termed a "political religion".
Source Wikipedia


109 posted on 05/03/2011 3:40:18 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Gamecock

“I’m outraged.
They should have their private parts cut off, a millstone tied around their necks and tossed into the ocean.”

You act like you’re shocked. You never knew there were Protestant Pedophiles?


110 posted on 05/03/2011 3:41:09 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: sayuncledave; Gamecock
Feel free to show that irrefutable proof, now. ;)

I'm still waiting for the proof for this statement in post 49:

Just like Roman Catholics on FR who blame sexually abused children for the abuse they suffered by by priests.

111 posted on 05/03/2011 3:43:37 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Jeff Chandler
What's your point?
He tried to take Hitler out and died in an SS camp.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer (February 4, 1906 – April 9, 1945) was a German Lutheran pastor, theologian and martyr. He was also a participant in the German resistance movement against Nazism and a founding member of the Confessing Church. His involvement in plans by members of the Abwehr (the German Military Intelligence Office) to assassinate Adolf Hitler resulted in his arrest in April 1943 and his subsequent execution by hanging in April 1945, 23 days before the Nazis' surrender. His view of Christianity's role in the secular world has become very influential. Source

112 posted on 05/03/2011 3:45:10 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Gamecock

The Gnostics claim Hitler as one of their own...
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/What%20is%20a%20Gnostic.htm

Not sure if the blogger is a “Nick” or a “Joe” but they’re into owning Hitler and they’re right for once.

Terrific blog. heh


113 posted on 05/03/2011 3:49:01 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Alex Murphy

“What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.” — James Madison


114 posted on 05/03/2011 3:49:38 PM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ( "The right to offend is far more important than any right not to be offended." - Rowan Atkinson)
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To: WPaCon; Gamecock
"I'm still waiting for the proof for this statement in post 49:"

They are frantically searching the "Googlesterium". It might take a while, but given enough time, and enough flexibility with standards, they will find an expert who agrees with them. It happens every day.

115 posted on 05/03/2011 3:49:38 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Gamecock

“Just like Roman Catholics on FR who blame sexually abused children for the abuse they suffered by by priests.”

Which ones? Are you making a blanket accusation or do you have proof which you would like to share.


116 posted on 05/03/2011 3:49:47 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: WPaCon
Was that post the reason for B-Chan’s zotting, or was he kicked off for posting something else?

It was one of several, all of them well-deserved IMO. His was a classic textbook case of Suicide By Mod.

In B-Chan's final week of posting, his tone changed starting with a post on losing friends over homosexual marriage. Over the next week, he would wax eloquently on the subjects of baby slapping, how liberals are more intelligent than conservatives, how "American conservatism as you have known it is a farce and a fraud", the aforementioned rant re monarchism, how "the America he knew left years ago", and how he believed Free Republic is "full of closeted homosexuals".

117 posted on 05/03/2011 3:51:19 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: OpusatFR
Which ones? Are you making a blanket accusation or do you have proof which you would like to share.

I remember reading it in the last year, I'm looking. And no, it is not a blanket accusation.

118 posted on 05/03/2011 3:52:46 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Gamecock
What's your point?

My point is that if you read source material beyond Wikipedia you might learn something about the sociology of NAZI Germany. The definitive book on Bonhoeffer goes into great detail about the religious affiliations of the NAZIs. But then actual historical knowledge tends to interfere with willfully ignorant calumnies.

119 posted on 05/03/2011 3:59:19 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Shemp was the Fourth Stooge of the Apocalypse.)
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To: Gamecock
"What's your point?.....Dietrich Bonhoeffer (February 4, 1906 – April 9, 1945) was a German Lutheran pastor, theologian and martyr."

No doubt that Bonhoffer was a saint of which there were many Protestants during the Holocaust, but you need to back away from that whole Nazi theme before you lose the little credibility you still have.

My son-in-law's uncle was a Catholic priest who miraculously survived Auschwitz. I have heard the stories first hand and seen his scars and tattoo. Estimates are that between 3 million and 5 million Catholics died in the holocaust including 50,000 Catholic clergy and religious, that is a number greater than all of the Catholic clergy in the US today.

120 posted on 05/03/2011 4:03:11 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Gamecock
Catholics and Nazism
The dark area onthe first map show the 1933 Nazi vote in Germany, the sencond show the distribution of Catholics in the 1932 census, it clearly shows Catholics didn't vote for Hitler.






(Zenit.org).- Catholics resisted Nazism during the dictatorship of Adolf Hitler in Germany, and if they didn't do it in a more decisive way, it was because of "a certain inferiority complex."

This is the thesis put forth by Austrian historian Martin Kugler during a conference titled "Sophie Scholl: Catholic Resistance to Nazism." The talk formed part of the 3rd International Film and Family Show, held in Tuesday in Barcelona and organized by CinemaNet.

The event focused on the 2005 German film "Sophie Scholl: The Last Days," which recounts the true story of Scholl, a 21-year-old member of the anti-Nazi, non-violent student group the White Rose.

Kugler is the founder of Europe4Christ.net, a multi-confessional and socio-political movement to fight moral relativism.

The Austrian historian explained that this "Catholic inferiority complex" and "fear" are analogous to the situation of Catholics today.

On the other hand, Kugler explained that Pius XII "loved the German people" and never approved of the Nazi regime.

The historian pointed out that "in 40 out of 44 speeches of Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli -- the future Pius XII -- as nuncio in Germany, there were criticisms of totalitarianism and racism."

"And if it was not more decisive when he was Pope it was because of his concern to not cause a greater persecution of Catholics, given the fact that there had been experiences of this kind," affirmed Kugler.

In light of this, "to say that he was anti-Semitic and in favor of Hitler is ridiculous," he affirmed, saying that the Holy See's diplomacy saved at least 700,000 Jews from the Holocaust during the Second World War.

121 posted on 05/03/2011 4:03:18 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Religion Moderator
I do not know of any Catholic Monarchists on this forum

Any idea of what happened to B-Chan?

122 posted on 05/03/2011 4:07:44 PM PDT by kanawa (Obama - "The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide.")
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To: Alex Murphy

This may be the first time I’ve said this to you, but thanks for posting that.

For some reason, I think I remember a thread where people were speculating whether B-Chan sold his freeper id, because there seemed to be a dramatic change in his posts and because people were willing to pay for the profiles of long-time freepers.


123 posted on 05/03/2011 4:11:06 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Alex Murphy; Siobhan; Canticle_of_Deborah; NYer; Salvation; american colleen; Desdemona; ...
Samuel F.B. Morse, is that you?

From Samuel Morse Demonstrates First Telegraph: Morse Also Achieved Fame As Painter and Politician

"In the 1830s, he [Morse] expressed his anti-Catholic prejudices in a series of newspaper articles under the pen name Brutus. He accused the monarchies of Europe of enlisting the aid of the Catholic Church to subvert American democracy by sending Catholic immigrants to take over the American West....Morse's articles, which were republished in 1835 as a book, Conspiracy Against the Liberties of the United States....In his book, Morse wrote: 'Surely American Protestants, freemen, have discernment enough to discover beneath them the cloven foot of this subtle foreign heresy. They will see that Popery is now, what it has ever been, a system of the darkest political intrigue and despotism, cloaking itself to avoid attack under the sacred name of religion. They will be deeply impressed with the truth, that Popery is a political as well as a religious system; that in this respect it differs totally from all other sects, from all other forms of religion in the country.
And to think, several years ago, I was handed a photocopied version of Morse's book outside Union Station in Washington, DC.
124 posted on 05/03/2011 4:11:05 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: bronxville
Is a 2008 thread about a blogger called “Nick” acceptable on this forum?

We have material posted to the Religion Forum which is thousands of years old written at the hand of people with a single name, so no I don't object to a 3 year old article written by Nick.
125 posted on 05/03/2011 4:14:56 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
As a fan of Roman History this seems to be a handy description of most of the officials in the later Roman Empire in the late fourth century AD, with enough changes as to be not useful as an accurate account of the Imperial Constitution of that period.

That's what I thought: the 'depth' merely comes from reading Roman history.

But the idea that a Roman Catholic monarchy would ever come to America is really, really, outtathere. Given how American really is, any "Church Established by Law" would almost certainly be evangelical Protestant. That's the faith [broadly speaking] that set down roots in the United States.

There's only one semi-realistic scenario for American becoming Catholic I've encountered: Walter Miller's A Canticle For Leibowitz. The Catholic Church saves the remnants of civilization after a full-scale nuclear war, just as it did during the Dark Ages. No other scenario makes sense.

126 posted on 05/03/2011 4:15:19 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: Cronos; Celtic Cross

My apology. I remembered the Poland part, not what preceded it.


127 posted on 05/03/2011 4:17:48 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: danielmryan; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
"There's only one semi-realistic scenario for American becoming Catholic..."

The only way those like Gamecock and Alex Murphy would ever become Catholic is if the Ordinate approved lateral transfers and they could become Pope.

128 posted on 05/03/2011 4:22:49 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: Alex Murphy
Alex, I know I'm one of the premier anti-Catholics on this forum (and I very much agreed with your assessment of Verdugo on the thread in which I lamented his banning), but I seriously hope you don't consider a Catholic monarchy to be an actual possibility. How could anyone possibly fear such a thing? It makes about as much sense as the Seventh Day Adventists and their perpetual fears of a "national sunday law."

Furthermore, although I certainly believe Catholicism is mistaken, I'm not sure that a Catholic monarchy wouldn't be an improvement over the current situation (provided they didn't force their evolutionism and higher criticism on the rest of us!). I'm sure there are far worse situations than being a religious minority in a country officially committed to another religion. All our human governments are temporary things anyway, pending the arrival of Mashiach and the establishment of the Kingdom of G-d on earth.

And yes, I'm still very much a Noachide who believes all non-Jews are bound individually and collectively by the Noachide Laws.

With all the terrible things going on right now, a Catholic monarchy is the last thing I'm worried about.

129 posted on 05/03/2011 4:26:14 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hachodesh hazeh lakhem ro'sh chodashim; ri'shon hu' lakhem lechodshey hashanah.)
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To: Natural Law
Joking aside, there has to be a real advantage to jump from the good old religion to a new one. What - I mean this seriously - does the Vatican offer Americans that it and only it can supply?
130 posted on 05/03/2011 4:27:08 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: danielmryan
"What - I mean this seriously - does the Vatican offer Americans that it and only it can supply?"

Salvation.

131 posted on 05/03/2011 4:30:23 PM PDT by Natural Law
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To: danielmryan

A Canticle for Leibowitz is a classic of post WWII science fiction.


132 posted on 05/03/2011 4:32:15 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (Liberty and Union, Now and Forever, One and Inseparable -- Daniel Webster)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I seriously hope you don't consider a Catholic monarchy to be an actual possibility. How could anyone possibly fear such a thing?....With all the terrible things going on right now, a Catholic monarchy is the last thing I'm worried about.

Nah. Don't believe the press you read about me - I'm not worried about it one bit, nor believe it to be a possibility. But I do think the Catholic preference for monarchy and feudalism might just explain the predilection for voting in Democrats.

133 posted on 05/03/2011 4:34:27 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Zionist Conspirator
I do think the Catholic preference for monarchy and feudalism might just explain the predilection for voting in Democrats.

How does egalitarian secularist socialism square with monarchist Catholicism?

134 posted on 05/03/2011 4:38:13 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Religion Moderator

How about this one...

In post #58 of this thread the source wasn’t devulged...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2712883/posts?q=1&;page=51

A quick search revealed the source as a homosexual anonyomous blogger who wrote his rampant hatefilled screed in 2007. The poster obviously felt it was fitting to regurgiate on the FR Religous Forum.

Should I have reported this...? And if I had would it have been acceptable?


135 posted on 05/03/2011 4:38:44 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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136 posted on 05/03/2011 4:41:07 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: bronxville

John Paul’s Blood to be Split Between Italy, Poland
Beliefnet ^ | April 26, 2011 | FRANCIS X. ROCCA
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:15:55 AM by Alex Murphy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2711850/posts.

Blood of Pope John Paul to be venerated at beatification
Global Post ^ | 4/26/2011
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 11:58:52 AM by Alex Murphy
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2711872/posts

Here are two posts on the same topic within 48 minutes. The latter was a lot more loaded with leftie talking points (they’re a radical leftie org) so one might suspect that this was the reason, i.e., if the poster thought there was more information to add why not post it on the thread he just posted less than an hour before...


137 posted on 05/03/2011 4:45:10 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Alex Murphy; WPaCon
B-Chan also admitted that he had long struggled with clinical depression, so that could explain some of his behavior.

Nuke, Nuts, and the Navy: or, My Struggle

138 posted on 05/03/2011 4:46:19 PM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If you know how not to pray, take Joseph as your master, and you will not go astray." - St. Teresa)
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy
I do think the Catholic preference for monarchy and feudalism might just explain the predilection for voting in Democrats.

How does egalitarian secularist socialism square with monarchist Catholicism?

Actually, there is a point in what Alex says. The United States lacks a European-style right wing ideology (vertical, hierarchical, organic collectivism). Since our version of a right wing is essentially Alexander Hamilton (The Money Power!!!), early Catholics latched onto the Democrat party as the closest they could come to a European right wing party (which was pretty much what certain aristocratic planters were) and many are still addicted. But then, this seems to be the way the Democrat party works (see the "redeemer"/jim crow era South).

139 posted on 05/03/2011 4:50:02 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hachodesh hazeh lakhem ro'sh chodashim; ri'shon hu' lakhem lechodshey hashanah.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Alex Murphy

Verdugo was banned?

I must have missed that.


140 posted on 05/03/2011 4:52:15 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Pyro7480; WPaCon
B-Chan also admitted that he had long struggled with clinical depression, so that could explain some of his behavior.

I had picked up on that, even before his flameout. The loss of friends appeared to have been a big issue for him, and "he's either getting divorced or about to commit suicide" was my first guess when he started posting those rants. Still, you don't say it if you're not thinking it at least some of the time - unless as WPaCon pointed out, maybe he sold his handle for some quick change.

141 posted on 05/03/2011 4:52:34 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: bronxville
Here are two posts on the same topic within 48 minutes. The latter was a lot more loaded with leftie talking points (they’re a radical leftie org) so one might suspect that this was the reason, i.e., if the poster thought there was more information to add why not post it on the thread he just posted less than an hour before...

Ping me if you're going to talk about me.

142 posted on 05/03/2011 4:55:37 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Pyro7480

Thanks for posting the info.


143 posted on 05/03/2011 5:07:39 PM PDT by WPaCon (Obama: pansy progressive, mad Mohammedan, or totalitarian tyrant? Or all three?)
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To: Puddleglum
The horror! If this happens, I will eat a hat of your choosing.

If this happens, there's a good chance that my head will be found inside it, so I'd wash it thoroughly if I were you. Ewww.

If not (in say, ten years), you must eat any UFO I manage to dig up outside of Roswell.

I hope it's not one of the Grey ones - an hour later, you're still hungry, plus now you have this thing growing inside of your stomach.

144 posted on 05/03/2011 5:07:50 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Alex Murphy
" ... Catholic preference for monarchy and feudalism might just explain the predilection for voting in"

Catholic votes have been far less of a factor in keeping democrat fascists in power than have the millions of blacks who claim to be Fundamentalist Protestants but who either don't vote or vote democrat. Every time someone talks about liberal Catholics or how conservative Protestants don't vote democrat I get a good belly laugh.

For every single Protestant who votes their Christian conscience each election, there is another Protestant who without fail will be voting democrat. But those democrat Protestants will be preaching the same things every Sunday as the conservative Protestants do. It doesn't take a single Catholic vote to cancel out the vast majority of conservative Protestant votes, they cancel one another out quite nicely, thank you. And the real irony is, Protestants aren't clever enough to figure that out in spite of claiming to be individually led by the Holy Spirit so well that they can unerringly interpret Scripture for themselves.

There is no group in this country more reliably democrat that the solidly Protestant, solidly conservative and Fundamentalist Christian black folks. The same fine folks who are at the prophecy conferences and conservative churches go to the voting booth and every single time vote democrat.

145 posted on 05/03/2011 5:13:51 PM PDT by Rashputin (Barry is insane., so handlers keep him medicated and on the golf course.)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Ping me if you’re going to talk about me.”

Why don’t you respond to it?


146 posted on 05/03/2011 5:32:31 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Gamecock
I'm not surprised that that is the best that you can do w.r.t. accusing Catholics of being monarchists.

Okay, you've got two. Anybody else, or are you extrapolating those two into all Catholicism?

147 posted on 05/03/2011 5:37:39 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Rashputin
Rashputin wrote: Catholic votes have been far less of a factor in keeping democrat fascists in power than have the millions of blacks...

I'm speechless!

148 posted on 05/03/2011 5:40:21 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Natural Law; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
The only way those like Gamecock and Alex Murphy would ever become Catholic is if the Ordinate approved lateral transfers and they could become Pope.

The only way is to repent and become Christian.

149 posted on 05/03/2011 5:45:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: jjotto
"I'm speechless!"

LOL. If the majority of them didn't claim to be solid conservative Protestants would you still be surprised?

150 posted on 05/03/2011 5:46:23 PM PDT by Rashputin (Barry is insane., so handlers keep him medicated and on the golf course.)
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