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A Blueprint for a Monarchy in America [How Two Catholic Monarchists view the rest of us Americans]
The Altar and Throne Monarchy Site ^ | December 19, 2008 | Nick

Posted on 05/03/2011 12:17:26 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

A reader recently sent me a constitution he drew up for a monarchy that would be applicable for the United States, where no one religion stands in the majority. I found his hypothetical constitution intriguing, and was impressed by the depth he went into. While I do not necessarily endorse his proposal in its entirety, I did want to post it for my readers to look over and to comment upon it. (Note: the author of this constitution wished to remain anonymous due to "the current political situation.")


The People

Recognized Churches Must Adhere to the Following Precepts:

Belief in a single God, the Father Almighty, who is eternal and unchanging, the sole creator and master of the universe
Belief in Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, who is co-eternal with the Father, partaking fully in both the human and divine essence
Profession of the Trinity: belief that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit exist as three separate and distinct persons while sharing a single essence
Belief that salvation comes only through the redemptive sacrifice of Christ
Belief in the literal existence of Heaven and Hell
Belief in the Revealed Truth of Scripture
Promotion of Proper Morality: condemnation of abortion, euthanasia, fornication, polygamy, homosexuality, bestiality and artificial birth control
Rejection of Modern Heresies: condemnation of Marxism, racism and/or ethnocentricism, dispensationalism, relativism, pantheism, and pacifism
Recognition that the mandate to rule comes from God, not popular acclamation
Possession of 10 million adherents within imperial domains

Subjects

While the constitution allows for complete freedom of religion for all inhabitants of the imperial domains, not all religions are equal in the eyes of the state. Subjects are those people who do not belong to Recognized Churches; they are divided into those with religion (Moral Theists) and those without it (Heathens), both groups are free to practice their belief systems in privacy and without interference from imperial authorities. Moral Theists may vote for and hold the office of Tribune of Subjects, an officer who represents them in the Senate. Both Moral Theists and Heathens are barred from all other elections and elected offices, the military officer corps, teaching positions at government schools and the practice of law.

Those Without Religion (Heathens)
Atheists
Those Apathetic to Religion
Pagans, Muslims, Wiccans, New Age Spiritualists, Satanists
Reformed/Progressive Jews
Heretics: Pseudo-Christians not conforming to any one the first nine precepts

Those With Religion (Moral Theists)
Monotheists/Deists: must conform to seventh, eighth, and ninth precepts
Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Zoroastrians
Theravadin and Mahayana Buddhists
Orthodox/Traditional Jews
Independent Christians: Christian sects with less than 10 million adherents
Citizens

Citizens are those people who belong to Recognized Churches; the constitution recognizes two classes of citizens: plebeians and patricians. Though all inhabitants of the imperial domains stand equal before the law, the extent to which one can participate in political life is determined partly by one’s social standing. Citizens, however, possess rights that Subjects do not: these include the freedom of assembly, the right to imperial petition, freedom of the press and freedom of speech. Children born to Citizen Families attain citizenship with a proclamation of faith and featly on their 18th birthday in the presence of the County Magistrate; those who decline to make this statement are demoted to Heathen Status.

Plebeians

Plebeians, or commoners, are citizens who hold no official titles; they are divided into two classes: Proletarians and Equestrians. Citizenship is a gift, not a right, and is awarded to those who conform to certain moral standards. As such, Plebeians may be stripped of their status by judgment of the Country Magistrate should they engage in manifest public sin.

Proletarians

Proletarians are Plebeians who hold taxable assets whose net worth is less than $500,000; they are barred from all elected offices and may only vote for one official: the Tribune of Plebeians, who must be a member of the Equestrian class.

Equestrians

Equestrians are Plebeians who hold taxable assets whose net worth is more than $500,000; they may vote in any election and hold any elected office. One may be born to the Equestrian class if one’s father is also an Equestrian but this status may be lost if they fail to accumulate $300,000 worth of taxable assets before their 35th birthday. All officers in the military automatically attain Equestrian status upon their commission which cannot be lost regardless of the value of their assets.

Patricians

Patricians, or nobles, are Catholic citizens whose families have been endowed with titles and estates by the Emperor or higher orders of nobility; they are divided into three classes: Dominates, Magnates and the Imperial Family. Both the imperial and provincial governments include appointed offices which are reserved exclusively for Patricians. To be born into the Patrician class, one’s father or grandfather must also have been a Patrician; one’s status as a Dominate or Magnate is inherited from their father or grandfather as well. As with Plebeians, one can also lose Patrician status if they engage in manifest public sin; this demotion results in automatic Heathen status with the loss of all endowed property and inheritance rights.

Dominates (Lords)

Dominates, or lesser lords, are Patricians who have been ennobled by individual Magnates; these appointments must be ratified by the provincial Council of Magnates. Certain positions at the provincial and imperial levels of government are reserved exclusively for Dominates; among these are those of Censor, Legate and Lictor. Dominate status may be revoked, along with all hereditary titles and property rites, should the individual be found guilty of manifest public sin by the regional Council of Magnates.

Magnates (Great Lords)

Magnates, or great lords, are Patricians who have been ennobled by the Emperor in recognition of their extraordinary achievements or exemplary service to the state. Certain positions at the imperial level of government are reserved exclusively for Magnates; they alone are permitted to assume the offices of Aedile, Dux, Quaestor, Senator and Princeps Senatus. All senior Magnates in a province also belong to the Council of Magnates, responsible for electing Senators to represent them in the Comitia Magnus; the leader of this body is given the honorary title of Dux. Magnate status may be revoked, along with all hereditary titles and property rites, should the individual be found guilty of manifest public sin by judgment of the Emperor.

Imperial Family

The Imperial Family consists of the Emperor, his wife, his children and grandchildren, his siblings and their spouses, and their children and grandchildren. These people possess Magnate status at birth and may be appointed to any position normally reserved for members of that class. Upon his ascension to the throne, the Emperor designates his own successor from among his sons, brothers, nephews, uncles or male cousins over the age of 25; a new successor may be chosen at any time when circumstances demand it. This choice must be verified by the Council of Duxi and the consent of the Papal Tribune.

The Government

The imperial government operates at five levels: municipalities, counties, provinces, eparchies, and the imperial government; with the exception of eparchies, at every level there are both elected and appointed offices open to members of the Plebeian or Patrician class. Any official may be removed from office should he be found guilty of manifest public sin, which could also result in the loss of his citizen status; the court which tries him is dependent on the status of his elected or appointed office. With the exception of Tribunes, only Equestrians and Patricians may vote in elections or hold elected offices; the particulars are listed below.

Municipal Offices

Mayor

The Mayor acts as the municipal executive and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; terms of service, executive powers, age restrictions, and election particulars are determined by individual provinces and municipalities.


Municipal Councilor

Municipal Councilors act as advisors to the Mayor and may be members of the Equestrian or Patrician class; terms of service, councilor powers, numbers, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces and municipalities.

Prefect

The Prefect acts as the municipal judge and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; he is appointed by the county Magistrate and has the power to appoint further municipal judges beneath him if necessity demands it. The Prefect serves for a term of five years and may be reappointed indefinitely though the associate judges he creates may be dismissed at any time. Prefects must be at least 35 years of age at the time of their first appointment.

County Offices

Magistrate

The Magistrate acts as both the county executive and judge and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class. He is responsible for appointing municipal Prefects, approving mayoral appointments, overseeing public services and facilities and hearing appeals from municipal courts, deciding which cases will be heard by higher courts. The Magistrate is appointed by the Governor with the approval of the Censor and serves for a term of five years; he must be at least 35 years of age at the time of his first appointment and may be reappointed indefinitely. Other powers and duties are determined by individual provinces.

Provincial Offices

Governor

The Governor acts as the provincial executive and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; he is elected by popular vote and must have held county or municipal offices prior to his election as Governor. His primary duties are to appoint county Magistrates and oversee public facilities and services. Other terms of service, powers, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces.

Provincial Councilors

Provincial Councilors act as provincial legislative officials and belong to a body called the Provincial Council; they may be members of the Equestrian or Patrician class and are elected by popular vote in proportion to the population of individual counties within the state. The powers of the Provincial Council, numbers of councilors, age restrictions and election particulars are determined by individual provinces.

Praetor

Praetors act as the provincial judges and may be a member of the Equestrian or Patrician class; they are appointed by the Censor to a ten year term and must have held county or municipal offices prior to their appointment to Praetor. Three Praetors sit on the High Court of each province and are responsible for hearing appeals from lower courts.

Censor

The Censor acts as the eparchial representative in each province and must be a member of the Dominate class; he is appointed to a life term by the Viceroy and is subject to no age restrictions. Censors have the power to appoint Praetors and Dominate Triumviri and veto any law passed by the Provincial Council or any decree from the Governor; their decisions may be appealed to and overturned by the Viceroy.

Eparchial Offices

Viceroy

The Viceroy acts as the imperial representative in each eparchy; he must be a member of the Magnate class and is appointed by the Emperor with the approval of the Senate. The Viceroy holds the position for life and has the power overturn the decision of any Censor in his eparchy and recommend cases for the Legate Court to hear. He presides over meetings of the Provincial Councils within his eparchy and has the responsibility of appointing Legates and Censors.

Legate

Legates act as eparchial judges and must be members of the Dominate class; they are appointed by the Viceroy and serve for life. The five Legates serving on each eparchial Supreme Court are subject to no age restrictions and have the responsibility of hearing appeals from lower courts; they are not obligated to accept every case.

Dux

The Dux is the mostly honorary position held by the leader of each of the eparchial Councils of Magnates according to their own parliamentary rules. The position is held for life; each Dux is also a de facto member of the Council of Duxi, responsible for electing the Princeps Senatus, approving Quaestor appointments and determining imperial succession.

Imperial Offices

Quaestor

Seven Quaestors, or judges, are appointed by the Emperor to officiate on the Imperial Court; all seven must be chosen from among the Magnate class and are subject to no age restrictions. It is their duty to hear appeals from lower courts, though they are not obligated to hear every case; Quaestor appointments, however, must be ratified by the Papal Tribune and the Council of Duxi. Quaestors serve for life and the longest-serving member of the Imperial Court is granted the honorary rank of Quaestor Magnus; at official functions, the Quaestor Magnus carries the Hand of Justice, symbolizing the triumph of law over chaos and the subservience of human law to the divine order.

Triumvir

Three Triumviri represent each province in the Comitia Minor; of these three representatives, two must be Equestrians and one must be a Dominate. All Triumviri must be at least 25 years of age. Equestrian Triumviri are elected by a majority vote of the provincial legislature with the approval of the Viceroy while Dominate Triumviri are appointed by the Censor of each province; they occupy their office for a term of five years and may be reelected or reappointed indefinitely.

Lictor

Elected by the Dominate Triumviri of the Comitia Minor; those holding the rank of Lictor must be Dominates themselves and at least 35 years of age. In this largely ceremonial role, the Lictor presides over all meetings of the Comitia Minor and carries the Fasces of State, symbolizing imperial power, at all official functions.

Senator

Two Senators are elected by each Council of Magnates according to their own parliamentary rules. Those holding the rank of Senator must be Magnates themselves and at least 35 years of age. Senators are barred from holding any other governmental office and serve in the Comitia Major for life.

Princeps Senatus

Elected by the Council of Duxi according to their own parliamentary rules; the one holding this office must be a Magnate himself and a Dux. The Princeps Senatus is subject to no age restrictions and holds the title for life. It is his duty to preside over all meetings of the Comitia Major and to cast the deciding vote in the event of a tie. At official functions, the Princeps Senatus is granted the honor of carrying the Sword of State, representing the duty of government to protect its people.

Tribune of Subjects

Elected by a popular vote of Moral Theists over the age of 18; the one holding this office must be a Moral Theist himself and be at least 35 years of age. To attain the position, candidates for this office must gain a simple majority of votes; in the event that one of the candidates fails to achieve a majority, another election will be held between the two leading contenders. The Tribune of Subjects serves a term of five years and may be reelected indefinitely; he has the power to veto any legislation he feels is detrimental to his constituents, but this veto can be overridden by a two-thirds majority vote in the Comitia Major or by imperial proclamation.

Tribune of Plebeians

Elected by a popular vote of all Plebeians, both Proletarians and Equestrians, over the age of 18; the one holding this office must be an Equestrian himself and at least 35 years of age. To attain the position, candidates for this office must gain a simple majority of votes; in the event that one of the candidates fails to achieve a majority, another election will be held between the two leading contenders. The Tribune of Plebeians serves a term of five years and may be reelected indefinitely; he has the power to veto any legislation he feels is detrimental to his constituents, but this veto can be overridden by a four-fifths majority vote in the Comitia Major or by imperial proclamation.

Papal Tribune

The Papal Tribune is appointed by the Supreme Pontiff and holds the position for life; the one holding this office must be a Catholic clergyman holding the rank of bishop. The Papal Tribune has the power to veto any legislation that betrays the principles of Christian morality; this veto is final and may only be overturned by imperial decree.

Imperator (Emperor)

The Emperor acts as the chief executive; his succession must be ratified by the previous Emperor, the Council of Duxi, and the Papal Tribune. It is his responsibility to defend the rule of law and Christian Civilization from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Though his power to declare war, appoint certain officials, and use state monies is abrogated by the Senate or the nobility, the Emperor may overrule the decision of any court, create new Magnates and preside over all meetings of the full Senate.

The author of this also gave these additional disclaimers:

I have divided the people living in any hypothetical imperial realm into subjects and citizens, based on their religious creed. Basically anyone adhering to the seventh, eighth and ninth precepts is considered a moral theist, as are Christian groups which conform to all the other nine precepts but have less than 10 million members. Only state-recognized churches receive tax-free status; by requiring 10 million members for this I hope to force the myriad of independent Protestant churches to combine into larger organizations with a more strict emphasis on doctrinal orthodoxy. Catholics of course get preeminent status in the government. As you can see, people may lose their citizen status or office should they be found guilty of manifest public sin.

Upon their 18th birthday, young people from citizen families will be required to take an oath in which they adhere to the first nine precepts; those converting to one of the Recognized Churches can apply for citizenship and, after a period of political and spiritual instruction, will be administered the same oath. Young people from citizen families who refuse to take the oath will be demoted to heathen status, as are people who leave one of the Recognized Churches; this may be appealed only after 10 years and the testimony of credible witnesses attesting to that person's conversion.

The government operates on five levels: municipalities, counties, provinces, eparchies, and the imperial government. The day to day governance is mostly conducted at the municipal/county/province level by elected officials. The eparchies are mostly judicial units consisting of several provinces designed to provide direct imperial oversight of lower offices. This system tries to allow people to run their own affairs as much as possible with limited interference but nonetheless has safeguards to ensure that new laws passed do not conflict with Christian morality. Hence the division between citizens and subjects/nobles and commoners. You'll also notice a distinction between Proletarians and Equestrians based on wealth; I do not hate the poor, but I do recognize that people without wealth and education tend to support destructive policies, hence the reason they are banned from all but one election.

The Imperial Senate is the legislative body of the Empire and is divided into an upper house (Comitia Major) and a lower house (Comitia Minor). The latter is at least 1/3 noble at all times, limiting the power of commoners to make direct policy at the highest level of government. The Tribunes exist to ensure that the people's voice is at least heard, but they can still be overruled by the Comitia Major. Basically the Comitia Major has the powers we Americans would associate with the Senate while the Comitia Minor is comperable to the House of Representatives.

Officially the Emperor's powers are comparable to that of a US President insofar as his ablility to declare war, raise taxes, and appoint certain officials is concerned; but he is capable of exerting far more influence over the government should he have the backing of the Church or other circumstances demand it.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: calvinistshate; catholicmonarchy; greatcatholicmonarch; monarchism
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Actually, there is a point in what Alex says. The United States lacks a European-style right wing ideology (vertical, hierarchical, organic collectivism). Since our version of a right wing is essentially Alexander Hamilton (The Money Power!!!), early Catholics latched onto the Democrat party as the closest they could come to a European right wing party (which was pretty much what certain aristocratic planters were) and many are still addicted. But then, this seems to be the way the Democrat party works (see the "redeemer"/jim crow era South).

A simpler and more realistic explanation is that the immigrant Catholics during the 19th and 20th centuries in the US were firmly rejected by the Republican Party, with its very English/Scottish heritage and strong Reformed roots. The Democratic Party was the only place that they could go politically.

151 posted on 05/03/2011 5:49:09 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Alex Murphy; B-Chan

Alex Murphy talking about B-Chan””I had picked up on that, even before his flameout. The loss of friends appeared to have been a big issue for him””

Instead of talking about people who can not respond and puffing yourself up at the expense of others you could offer a prayer or say something nice about him

To B-Chan if you still can receive posts

St. Jude, friend to those in need,
I am weary from grief, without joy, without hope,
struggling through the dark night of the soul.
I turn to you, my most trusted friend.
Take away this emptiness and the pain of my broken heart.
In your compassion, wipe away the tears and carry me to a place of peace.
Too long have I been blind to the goodness of God’s world.
Heal me. I yearn to feel, to bathe in light and joy.
Envelop me in brightness, and do not hold back.
And I promise, if you should see me fit to receive these gifts,
I will share them always. Amen.


152 posted on 05/03/2011 5:51:57 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Natural Law

Oh yeah, now I remember why I stopped reading these threads. LOL.

No amount of documented evidence is EVER enough for those who create their own version of history.


153 posted on 05/03/2011 6:02:50 PM PDT by Jaded (Whatever.... really.)
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To: Natural Law

Oh yeah, now I remember why I stopped reading these threads. LOL.

No amount of documented evidence is EVER enough for those who create their own version of history.


154 posted on 05/03/2011 6:03:08 PM PDT by Jaded (Whatever.... really.)
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To: Pyro7480

Dang, that’s sad to read. I hope that B-Chan is doing okay.


155 posted on 05/03/2011 6:06:53 PM PDT by Chesterbelloc
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To: MarkBsnr

“”Okay, you’ve got two. Anybody else, or are you extrapolating those two into all Catholicism?””

He did not get anyone,Mark.Besides,any Catholic who knows his faith would prefer a Catholic system over what we have today


156 posted on 05/03/2011 6:09:55 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
Instead of talking about people who can not respond and puffing yourself up at the expense of others you could offer a prayer or say something nice about him

I'll leave it to the pro-monarchists to "say something nice" about anti-American seditionists.

157 posted on 05/03/2011 6:28:47 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
A Canticle for Leibowitz is a classic of post WWII science fiction.

Yes, I first read it as a lad.

158 posted on 05/03/2011 6:30:03 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: danielmryan

“There’s only one semi-realistic scenario for American becoming Catholic I’ve encountered: Walter Miller’s A Canticle For Leibowitz.”

Pope: “Ze first zing ve do eez get all auf zem Protezndent Prezidents auf deirz to nominate all Catholics fur der Shupreme Court, den have zem declare zis “Conzshtitushon” auf deirz un-Conszhtitushonal. Zen ve grant ze New Vurld lands to a zuitable Kennedy, yez?”

Secret meeting of Cardinals: “Brilliant, Holy Father!!”

Nope, still not as plausible as Canticle...OR IS IT?!!

Freegards


159 posted on 05/03/2011 6:36:10 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: WPaCon; lastchance; bronxville; sayuncledave; Judith Anne
I'm still waiting for the proof for this statement in post 49:

Here ya go:

1. I cannot tell everything I know, but I can say there are teens who don’t care who they have sex with, who exploit sick, perverted adults for power, money, and drugs, just as they exploit others younger than they are for power and sex.Posted on April 19, 2010 by Judith Anne (Emphasis mine)

2. Yet, teens do exploit adults to get what they want. Posted on Monday, April 19, 2010 by Judith Anne

So teens "exploit" these poor priests. (One would think they would learn to protect themselves from the "exploitation" in Priest school.) It's the Homosexual culture. It's the Protestants fault. School teaches do it. Yada, yada, yada. Anything to shift the spotlight away from Rome.


160 posted on 05/03/2011 6:37:22 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: MarkBsnr
The only way is to repent and become Christian.

I am a Christian. You are a follower of the Pope, there is quite a distinction.

161 posted on 05/03/2011 6:40:30 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Typical anti love of neighbor response about someone like B-Chan who was going through suffering.

I will pray for you Adoration tomorrow to have a heart of compassion


162 posted on 05/03/2011 6:44:01 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Gamecock

“Teens. If you call teens “children” then I guess so. Have you ever heard of ephebephilia?

You can hammer that all day long if you want. I cannot tell everything I know, but I can say there are teens who don’t care who they have sex with, who exploit sick, perverted adults for power, money, and drugs, just as they exploit others younger than they are for power and sex.

You likely have no familiarity with the ugly homosexual subculture. I have a fair amount of experience with these people as a nurse on psych and as AIDS patients. And talk to some people in law enforcement to get a fuller picture.

I am a Catholic parent, so was my husband. If any Church authority figure had EVER harmed one of my children, we’d be in jail for murder, not behind closed doors with a lawyer angling for his fee and a big payout. I absolutely do not trust most of the so-called victims.”

Writing there are teenagers who have exploited sickos is not blaming child victims of sexual abuse. Does that apply to victims of clergy abuse? I do not believe so at all. But there is a subculture where unfortunatly it does happen. Usually on the streets as a survival technique.


163 posted on 05/03/2011 6:51:36 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Gamecock

It is deception to pick what suits your views and to leave out the full post.

“You are willfully ignoring that these were not CHILD victims, they were teens. You evidently did not read my post.

I have never blamed a raped child for ANYTHING. But teens, every day, commit crimes up to and including murder, in order to gain money, drugs, power, sexual gratifications, etc. Are you one of those who call the Columbine murderers “children”?

Yet, teens do exploit adults to get what they want. Exploiting gay men for money, power, drugs, and sexual satisfaction is a common occurance. I’m not blaming VICTIMS, I’m blaming the deviant homosexual subculture.”

Such a practice would be called lying anywhere else.


164 posted on 05/03/2011 6:53:54 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Gamecock

If your sect is Christian. Christianity is doomed.


165 posted on 05/03/2011 6:55:22 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: stfassisi
He did not get anyone,Mark.Besides,any Catholic who knows his faith would prefer a Catholic system over what we have today

Very good. What we have today is definitely not Christian in any manner whatsoever.

166 posted on 05/03/2011 6:57:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: lastchance
13 is a teen. Is that OK? Since you brought up family, what would you do if a Priest was caught with his pants down with you 13 year old? Shrug and say It's just ephebephilia.

And let's not forget, this isn't a homosexual issue. Plenty of girls were molested by Priests too.

167 posted on 05/03/2011 6:57:21 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Gamecock

Gamecock,

I was careful in my reply to state I did not think the example Judith Ann gave was the case in clergy sex abuse cases. I don’t believe those victims were street wise teenagers who exploit adults in order to survive.


168 posted on 05/03/2011 7:00:56 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Gamecock
I am a Christian.

If my mother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.

You are a follower of the Pope, there is quite a distinction.

Matthew 16 tells us of the stewardship of Peter:

13 8 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 11 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

20 15 Then he strictly ordered his disciples to tell no one that he was the Messiah. 21 16 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he 17 must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised. 22 18 Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, "God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you." 23 He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do." 24 19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21 26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? 27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.

All Christians will be Judged according to their conduct - including their conduct on FR.

169 posted on 05/03/2011 7:02:22 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Gamecock; Judith Anne

Judith Anne - Teens. If you call teens “children” then I guess so. Have you ever heard of ephebephilia?
You can hammer that all day long if you want. I cannot tell everything I know, but I can say there are teens who don’t care who they have sex with, who exploit sick, perverted adults for power, money, and drugs, just as they exploit others younger than they are for power and sex.
You likely have no familiarity with the ugly homosexual subculture. I have a fair amount of experience with these people as a nurse on psych and as AIDS patients. And talk to some people in law enforcement to get a fuller picture.

Judith Anne - Please. Ephebophiles. TEENS. It’s not a foolish argument, it’s reality. If you’re going to bash the Church, do so from a position of REALITY. In case you’ve forgotten, we send CHILDREN (young adults) into war.

A definition: (From wikipedia, but it’s accurate)
Because most late adolescents have physical characteristics near (or in other cases, identical) to that of full-grown adults, some level of sexual attraction to persons in the age group is common among adults of all sexual orientations.[6] The term ephebophilia is used only to describe the preference for mid-to-late adolescent sexual partners, not the mere presence of some level of sexual attraction. Such a distinct preference for individuals in mid or late adolescence is not generally regarded by psychologists as a pathology when it does not interfere with other major areas of one’s life. Ephebophilia is not listed by name as a mental disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR), or the ICD-10, nor is it listed as a paraphilia. This is as opposed to pedophilia, which is categorized as a specific disorder in those systems with its own diagnostic criteria. However, ephebophilia can sometimes be diagnosed as a disorder if it results in dysfunction or exploitative behavior, either under the DSM specification 309.2, “Paraphilia Not Otherwise Specified”, or under the ICD-10 F65.8 “Other disorders of sexual preference”.[14][15]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2495846/posts?page=62#62

It appears that Judith Anne, a Psych RN, was trying to have an intellectual discussion but...whoosh, it went right over the empty craniums.

And you posted the picture for...?


170 posted on 05/03/2011 7:06:50 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: lastchance
If your sect is Christian. Christianity is doomed.

Since it isn't, Christianity will continue just as our Lord promised us.

171 posted on 05/03/2011 7:07:12 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: Gamecock

Since you have habit of cherry picking let me re post what I wrote in regards to clergy who abused teens.

“Writing there are teenagers who have exploited sickos is not blaming child victims of sexual abuse. Does that apply to victims of clergy abuse? I do not believe so at all.”

I would view the case of a 13 year old altar boy who had trusted a priest as friend and mentor only to be preyed upon and abused by that priest quite differently than a 16 year old street kid who engaged in homosexual behavior in order to score drugs. The former is cleary a victim of a predator. The latter the roles of prey and predator often cross and are hard to distinguish.


172 posted on 05/03/2011 7:07:19 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Gamecock

I think you are confusing Judith Ann’s post with my reply. I did not mention family she did.


173 posted on 05/03/2011 7:08:50 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: lastchance; Gamecock
It is deception to pick what suits your views and to leave out the full post.

Gamecock named one Catholic who believes that the victims of abuse were (in most cases) the real perpetraitors of abuse. Why not put it into a larger context? Those of us on that thread learned from that same Catholic that:

a) (Most) Catholic priests were engaging in completely legal sex acts
b) (Most of) the priests' sexual conquests were at an age of legal consent, according to Catholic apologists, meaning that
c) (Most of) the priests were therefore engaging in consensual sex acts
, but that d) (Some of) the priests were actually seduced by teenage boys into engaging in these legal, consensual sex acts
e) A priest who finds teenage minors sexually attractive (ephebophilia) is harboring neither a pathological nor a mental disorder.
f) There's a legal difference between molestation and rape, which means that molesting a 13 year old is better than raping a 13 year old..
g) There's at least as much abuse in Presbyterian churches as there has been in Catholic ones [which can't be very much, given points a - f]
h) There's 3-4 times as much abuse by clergy in Protestant denominations [which can't be very much, given points a - g]
i) Silence in regards to abuses by clergy shows a lack of care and concern for the victims. Speaking out in regards to abuses by clergy is exploiting the victims in order to harm others. [which condemns those who brought up points g and h, above]
If that's not excusing the priests for their crimes, I don't know what is.
174 posted on 05/03/2011 7:13:52 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Gamecock

Where is the Outrage? (protestant pedophiles)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2709296/posts

Gamecock - “I’m outraged.
They should have their private parts cut off, a millstone tied around their necks and tossed into the ocean.”

And you’re just learning about Protestant pedophilia today?
Perhaps we should post some more threads on Protestant child abuses as it appears that few of you are aware of them. And even more importantly that it hasn’t stopped. The mainline Protestant Churches (and other Institutions) are following the excellent Catholic program that was implemented 10 years ago - perhaps it would help the decentralized Churches? What do you think it will take to stop your Pastors from committing such foul acts?


175 posted on 05/03/2011 7:22:28 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: Alex Murphy

You need to ping Judith Ann since you are maligning her by writing that her posts say something completly different from what they actually said.

Yes I bothered to read every post you linked to. None of them in anyway resembled what you claimed.

Shame on you.


176 posted on 05/03/2011 7:25:15 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: bronxville; Alex Murphy

***And you’re just learning about Protestant pedophilia today?***

No.

I have condemned it before. I’ve posted articles of Prod minsters caught red handed. I don’t hide behind nuances and cast false blame like the FR Papists.


177 posted on 05/03/2011 7:28:00 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Alex Murphy
Catholic monarchy is the last thing I'm worried about

You are a voice of reason. I would go further and say that if, quite simply, everybody who holds any political office today (or at any other time) is told that he holds that office as his property as long as he wants it, and can bequeath it to his child -- our lives as private citizens will improve dramatically, this country will prosper in peace, the size fo government will be reduced over time drastically, and generally much if not all of the conservative agenda will be implemented in due course. That is because property is preserved and increased when it has an owner, and in a democracy the national infrastructure has no owner, only renters.

I don't think any American Monarchist (I am one) considers monarchy a possibility for America presently. I think that an aristocratic system with a monarch balancing and limiting the excesses of the nobility is a natural development of any free society; I think that a healthy society does have a dominant religion and merely tolerates other religions. I also think that Protestantism is the dominant American religion at least for the time being.

The idea that one can write a constitution and then somehow implement it, like a computer program, is profoundly un-monarchic, and outright silly. A monarchy is an organic product, -- it is, in fact a form of a family. It develops over time; it may even have a consitution at some point of maturity; but to write a monarchic constitutions makes about as much sense as writing a future biography of a baby.

178 posted on 05/03/2011 7:29:26 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Gamecock

Good. Then you won’t mind if I help you out a little every now and again?


179 posted on 05/03/2011 7:36:12 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: annalex
I would go further and say that if, quite simply, everybody who holds any political office today (or at any other time) is told that he holds that office as his property as long as he wants it, and can bequeath it to his child -- our lives as private citizens will improve dramatically, this country will prosper in peace, the size fo government will be reduced over time drastically, and generally much if not all of the conservative agenda will be implemented in due course. That is because property is preserved and increased when it has an owner, and in a democracy the national infrastructure has no owner, only renters.

I don't think any American Monarchist (I am one) considers monarchy a possibility for America presently. I think that an aristocratic system with a monarch balancing and limiting the excesses of the nobility is a natural development of any free society; I think that a healthy society does have a dominant religion and merely tolerates other religions. I also think that Protestantism is the dominant American religion at least for the time being.

Does "not a possibility for America presently" mean that Catholics should be trying improve the possibility for it in America, at least in the future?

180 posted on 05/03/2011 7:38:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: annalex; Alex Murphy
Thanks for getting this back OT!

I don't think any American Monarchist (I am one) considers monarchy a possibility for America presently.

What an interesting statement! Presently? When then? What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

181 posted on 05/03/2011 7:39:02 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Good book , been studying Catholic eschatology for years.
We are in the period of the ‘little chastistement’. However, best Catholic book I’ve ever read hands down is ‘Triumph: The power and glory of the Catholic Church’ by H W Crocker.
Learned many tangible things between the lines on this one, repeating patterns, recurring battles over philosophy and the usual violence that entails, et al. Currently am reading ‘Introduction to the Devout Life’ by DeSales and then heavier books in that category.


182 posted on 05/03/2011 7:42:20 PM PDT by RBIEL2
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To: bronxville

Not at all.

And I’m sure you won’t mind if I return the favor then???


183 posted on 05/03/2011 7:44:41 PM PDT by Gamecock (I didn't reach the top of the food chain just to become a vegetarian.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Does "not a possibility for America presently" mean that Catholics should be trying improve the possibility for it in America, at least in the future?

Not just Catholics, everyone. It is good for America, so it would be good for as many people as possible see that as a historical goal. The least we all can do is to stop using "monarchy" like a swear word often not realizing what it even means.

It is true though that since monarchy is often a happy historical experience for Catholics, and far less so for Protestants or other confessions, you are likely to find more monarchists among the Catholics. Among the Orthodox, especially, they are quite a sizable minority of the faithful.

184 posted on 05/03/2011 7:57:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Gamecock
What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

That is the question of the day, isn't it? For those good conservative American Catholics who's expressed a preference for monarchy over a constitutional republic, but say the conditions aren't right for one, do you vote and practice your religion like you want to delay the onset of your preferred monarchy, or like you want to hasten it?

185 posted on 05/03/2011 8:00:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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ph


186 posted on 05/03/2011 8:02:30 PM PDT by xone
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To: Gamecock

Gamecock - Post 49 - “BTW: For the lurkers, what you have just seen is a predictable Catholic attempt to deflect attention elsewhere. Just like Roman Catholics on FR who blame sexually abused children for the abuse they suffered by by priests.”

Gamecock - “And I’m sure you won’t mind if I return the favor then???”

I don’t see where you need anyone to approve - your obsession began in your first or second post. How many threads did you start on Protestant Pedophilia this year?


187 posted on 05/03/2011 8:03:25 PM PDT by bronxville (Sarah will be the first American female president.)
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To: annalex
--Does "not a possibility for America presently" mean that Catholics should be trying improve the possibility for it in America, at least in the future?--

Not just Catholics, everyone. It is good for America, so it would be good for as many people as possible see that as a historical goal. The least we all can do is to stop using "monarchy" like a swear word often not realizing what it even means.

I think you've just answered my question.

188 posted on 05/03/2011 8:04:35 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy
What circumstances would bring your fantasy of a Monarchy to fruition?

We may be closer to a feudal society than we realize. That is because a collapse of the oversized and today barely governable state is likely to bring about feudalism. That is not yet monarchy, but rather feudalism is a natural order in absence of a state when people make up their own law enforcement contracts with private parties, and therefore nobility emerges. Monarchy arises from feudalism when one of the bigger feudals assumes that role in order to prevent a national fragmentation and take care of national goals. Note that in Europe the formation of monarchies took centuries because medieval Europe had no national sense yet, whereas the American nation is well-formed.

By the way, some expect a dictatorship to arise when a sitting president suspends the Constitution, but that state of affairs is not monarchy, and usually leads to a re-establishment of a republic when things calm down.

189 posted on 05/03/2011 8:06:25 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Alex Murphy

My job is done then?


190 posted on 05/03/2011 8:07:59 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: bronxville

I can see no relationship between post 58 on this thread and the one you linked.


191 posted on 05/03/2011 8:54:05 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: annalex
You are a voice of reason.

Thanks for the unexpected compliment.

I would go further and say that if, quite simply, everybody who holds any political office today (or at any other time) is told that he holds that office as his property as long as he wants it, and can bequeath it to his child -- our lives as private citizens will improve dramatically, this country will prosper in peace, the size fo government will be reduced over time drastically, and generally much if not all of the conservative agenda will be implemented in due course. That is because property is preserved and increased when it has an owner, and in a democracy the national infrastructure has no owner, only renters.

I think a similar point was made in a book entitled Democracy: The God that Failed. The point being that a permanent governing class has an incentive to preserve the country and hand it over to the next generation. Elected representatives/presidents etc. have only the incentive of short term political advantage with no concern for future generations at all.

192 posted on 05/03/2011 8:54:49 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hachodesh hazeh lakhem ro'sh chodashim; ri'shon hu' lakhem lechodshey hashanah.)
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To: Gamecock; B-Chan

Also, B-Chan had a tagline: “Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?”


193 posted on 05/03/2011 9:02:04 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Rashputin; Alex Murphy
"Every time someone talks about liberal Catholics or how conservative Protestants don't vote democrat I get a good belly laugh."

The real knee slapper in this discussion is just how mathematically ignorant the anti-Catholics really are. The endless trot out the statistic of "54% of Catholics" elected Barak Obama in one breath and then tell us how Catholicism is no longer the largest denomination in the next breath.

Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were Protestant, put Obama into office.

194 posted on 05/03/2011 9:30:01 PM PDT by Natural Law
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Comment #195 Removed by Moderator

Comment #196 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law; Alex Murphy; Rashputin
Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were non-Catholic, put Obama into office.

True. And what would be interesting is if Alex posted the way his specific denomination voted -- I'm tired of some left leaning, Democrat voting groups (like the OPC etc.) hiding behind the "Protestant" label.

These small groups of 10,000 adults and pederasts may shout that x% of Protestants voted this way, but that hides the true numbers -- I mean, if 75% of 10,000 OPC vote democrat, they would hide behind the x%, right?

197 posted on 05/03/2011 9:41:35 PM PDT by Cronos
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To: Natural Law
Barak Obama got 69,456,897 votes. Of that number less than 12 million were Catholic. That means 57 million non-Catholics, the majority of whom were Protestant, put Obama into office.

How are you defining "Protestant"? Does "Protestant" mean "Non Catholic" in the above sentence? If a majority of 57 million is Protestant, and their numbers are larger than the 12 million Catholics who voted for Obama, where are they found on the below chart?

2008 Presidential Election demographics, footnoted and annotated
Your "by the numbers" breakdown of vote, with emphasis on the religious voter (as of 11/10/08):

xx% McCain, 23% Obama - White Evangelicals age 30-6411
75% McCain, 25% Obama - White7,10 Born Again5,10,12 Evangelicals1,8,10,12
xx% McCain, 32% Obama - White Evangelicals age 18-2911
65% McCain, xx% Obama - Weekly church-attending Protestants7
65% McCain, 34% Obama - White Protestants7,8
62% McCain, 35% Obama - State of Utah3
59% McCain, 40% Obama - Working-class whites13
57% McCain, 41% Obama - White men13
55% McCain, 43% Obama - Weekly mass-attending Catholics 6,9
54% McCain, 44% Obama - Weekly church-goers1,4,7,12
54% McCain, 45% Obama - Protestants6,8
53% McCain, 46% Obama - White women13
52% McCain, 47% Obama - White "regular-mass-attending" Catholics12
51% McCain, 47% Obama - White college graduates13
xx% McCain, 47% Obama - White independent voters13
51% McCain, 49% Obama - White Catholics1,7,11
46% McCain, 52% Obama - Non-Evangelical Protestants 12
xx% McCain, 53% Obama - Monthly church-goers 4**
45% McCain, 54% Obama - Whites13
45% McCain, 54% Obama - Catholics1,4,6,8,9,10,11,12
xx% McCain, 59% Obama - Semi-annual church-goers4**
38% McCain, 61% Obama - Occasional churchgoers1
37% McCain, 61% Obama - Non-weekly-mass-attending Catholics6,12
30% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanics13****
xx% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanic Catholics8,11**,***, ****
xx% McCain, 67% Obama - Hispanic Protestants and other Christians11**, ****
xx% McCain, 68% Obama - Don't attend church4 **
23% McCain, 75% Obama - Unaffliliated with any religion11
21% McCain, 78% Obama - American Jews2,8,12 and other faiths12
xx% McCain, 94% Obama - Black Protestants11,13**,****

xx% McCain, 96% Obama - Blacks13**,****

** No source provided voting percentages for the other party.
*** Associated Press (citation #11) reports this number as 72%, instead of the 67% other media gave it.
**** Note that some media are reporting the same numbers for the Hispanic and Black vote in general, as well as for those same groups with Catholic or Protestant affiliation.


Citations:
1 The Awesome Blue God -- How Obama Forged A New Faith Coalition
2 Exit polls: 78% of Jews voted for Obama
3 Utah's red loses some of its luster
4 Obama's Religious Appeal: Still Missing Evangelicals - which TIME renamed as Obama: Bringing (Some) Evangelicals In
5 The Evangelical Electoral Map
6 What's wrong with Catholic voters? What's wrong with Catholics?
7 Evangelical Voters Favor McCain by Wide Margins
8 Catholic voters heavily favored Obama, analysis shows
9 What Happened to the Catholic Vote?
10 Loyal to the End: Evangelicals Stay the Course
11 Obama results show gains in key religious voters
12 How the faithful voted
13 Exit polls: How Obama won

All numbers cited above are the earliest ones reported in the press. In cases of multiple reports, some percentages cited were not exact. However, the numbers above are within 2% of all sources cited, lending credence to the general number & placement overall.

Other resources:
With the Help of Catholics…Obama’s Victory
Results! Evangelicals
Mainline Protestants and Latino evangelicals surge toward Obama [pre-election article]
Poll: Latino Protestants switching back to Democrats this election [pre-election article]
The Hispanic Protestant swing vote [pre-election article]
America spoke
Believers in the Pews--and the Polling Booth
McCain Beats Bush on Evangelical Vote

I wouldn't (and don't) "blame the Catholics" for Obama's win. If anything, I blame the Protestant and Evangelical churches for Obama's win, via the Hispanic and Black "Protestant" votes. Our congregations are (apparently) far more racially divided than 2004's vote let on. Hispanic and Black "Protestant" voters went for Obama in almost opposite ratios to White Protestants. That's not something the Protestant/Evangelical church should be proud of....

....In short, I believe that Christians in 2008 have lost ground, and are now too small a minority to sway elections in and of themselves. We have become strangers in a foreign land (Exodus 2:22, cf Jeremiah 5:19). That's the real story coming out of these election results, in my honest opinion.
-- Alex Murphy, November 10 2008


198 posted on 05/03/2011 9:50:47 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Natural Law
what would be interesting is if Alex posted the way his specific denomination voted -- I'm tired of some left leaning, Democrat voting groups (like the OPC etc.) hiding behind the "Protestant" label.

These small groups of 10,000 adults and pederasts may shout that x% of Protestants voted this way, but that hides the true numbers -- I mean, if 75% of 10,000 OPC vote democrat, they would hide behind the x%, right?

SO, Alex -- how many of your particular denomination voted democrat? 75%+?

199 posted on 05/03/2011 10:10:36 PM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos
SO, Alex -- how many of your particular denomination voted democrat? 75%+?

SO, Cronos -- did you give up your American citizenship when you moved to Poland? If not, how did you vote in the American elections in 2008? In 2010? Did you vote Democrat like the majority of Catholics here did?

200 posted on 05/03/2011 10:14:05 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG...thank you. Thank you.)
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