The Church Fathers- Mary: Ever Virgin

Thanks for the simple question from the simple non-Catholic.

Is the Rosary considered by the Roman Catholic Church an "epitome of the whole Gospel"? That would be Catechism paragraph 971.

2,441 posted on 06/14/2011 1:37:48 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

When I was trying to talk my 'chapter' of Lay Dominicans to pray the Rosary "in choirs" (one side of the church does one half of the prayer and the other side does the other and it switches every decade) as opposed to what I call "call and response", I ended my jocular request by mentioning some florid promise of St. Louis de Montfort's about how you get more indulgences (or whatever) if you do it that way.

Everybody laughed.

The POINT of the joke was that I was arguing the way non-Catholics THINK we argue.

It's like when one of the Friars was taking some inquirers through the Church to point out various features. When he got to our statue of Mary he said, "That's Mary. As you know, we worship her." And everybody laughed.

Our antagonists spread falsehoods about us and attribute motives to us which seem ludicrous. So we laugh.

2,442 posted on 06/14/2011 1:40:58 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

Jokes aside, was the last post I sent you correct? I don’t want to misunderstand the RCCs teaching on the Rosary.

2,443 posted on 06/14/2011 1:46:23 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

An “epitome”. That’s great! Yeah. I’ll cop to it.

The first five mysteries (Joyful) have to do with the Incarnation and early years of Jesus’ life.
(1) Annunciation
(2) Visitation
(3) Nativity
(4) Presentation
(5) Finding the young Jesus in the Temple

Then we go to the ministry mysteries (Luminous)
(6) Baptism
(7) Wedding at Cana
(8) Proclamation of the Kingdom
(9) Transfiguration
(10) Institution of the Eucharist

Then the mysteries of the Passion (Sorrowful)
(11) The “agony”(= struggle) in the Garden
(12) Jesus is scourged
(13) Jesus is crowned with thorns
(14) Jesus is made to carry his cross
(15) Jesus us crucified and dies

Then the Mysteries of Glory (um, Glorious)
(16) The Resurrection
(17) The Ascension
(18) The descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost
(19) The Assumption of Mary
(20) The Coronation of Mary

So yeah, that is a concise summary of the high points which is what an “epitome” is. I like it.

2,444 posted on 06/14/2011 1:49:01 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

(Did I answer okay?)

2,445 posted on 06/14/2011 1:50:41 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

Is the Rosary a series of prayers counted on a string of beads? Arranged in groups of ten small beads separated by one large bead? Five sets of these decades. The large bead is the Our Father or Lord’s Prayer, and the Our Father is said on this bead. One each of the small beads, the Hail Mary is prayed by Catholics. Which would be Catechism paragraphs 2676-2677. Is this correct? Thanks for you patience.

2,446 posted on 06/14/2011 1:53:43 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

It is right the way it would be right to say that I am a featherless biped endowed with speech, some would say with too much speech.

Try "The Bible is a bunch o' words arranged in a certain order so that they record the religious thoughts and history of some folks in the Mediterranean basin."

See what I mean? It's right while also seeming to miss the point.

To me, you ain't doin' the Rosary all the way if you're not spending at least part of the time on the "mysteries."

Did you read my attempt on "The Baptism of the Lord"? Seriously. That's not the only way to 'meditate' but it's one way, and, to me, without something like that going on, you're missing precisely the "epitome of the Gospel" thing.

2,447 posted on 06/14/2011 2:05:50 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

I know I'm probably missing the whole Rosary thing, but I'm trying to get the grasp of it. So it is a series of beads on which prayers are repeated?

While I'm with you here, the Rosary is a sacramental, which does not give sanctifying grace and actual grace, unlike a sacrament, which does. [1670].

The purpose of a sacramental, the Rosary included, is to help Catholics prepare for the grace to be received from the sacraments. [1667]. Right? Thanks again.

2,448 posted on 06/14/2011 2:17:50 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

Wow. Be sure to read the whole of Article 2. It's not bad.

BTW, just to show thee weird and wonderful ways of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, the Rosary remains officially unofficial. Nobody MUST pray the Rosary unless they've made promises to some group or order -- or to their mother.

2,449 posted on 06/14/2011 2:22:13 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

OK. Just one more question here. The meaning of “vain”. From “vain repetitions”. Does it mean meaningless, worth nothing, or does it mean vanity, as in I,me,mine, what I desire, what I want?

2,450 posted on 06/14/2011 2:30:44 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

I wanted to add that there are other ways of making a Rosary. I have one with 20 decades, and another with just one and a ring at the end, I move it from finger to finger as I complete a decade. And there is "introductory" and "conclusion" material. The main part remains pretty much the same, but there is a Franciscan Rosary which is slightly different.

Yes, we would hold that something certainly happens, some gift is objectively given through the sacraments. But a thing like a Rosary or the medal I wear as lay Dominican prompts me to prayer and God uses the prayer to mess with my life (for which I think Him!) So you COULD say that, since everything works together, the Rosary or the medal KIND of did something. If you write a note to yourself to study the Bible at bedtime, the note KIND of does something ....

I do not agree with your reading of 1667.
-- I mean YES, it is always good to pray when you go to Church. But it is always good to pray when you DON't Go to church, right?
-- Prayer disposes us to ... pray some more! And we all probably know people of prayer who just seem more attuned to God, less likely to flip the bird to someone who cuts them off in traffic; MORE likely to say (and to MEAN) "Bless his heart, maybe he's having a bad day."

-- the whole line in 1667 is "By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy."

Wow. That's a doctoral thesis or three in one sentence! (All this is IMHO) Good things come in habits. IF I am in the habit of prayer, then I will,what, enjoy Mass more. That may or may not change the grace of Mass but it might somehow play into the way it works in my life.

Not only that, but with respect to "rendering holy" occasions of our lives, those who are graced with the habit of turning to God will be more likely, I'd guess, to do so when told (as we were once told, incorrectly) that their baby girl would die. It was not a brand new idea for us to take our sorrow and fear to God. We'd taken our joy and happiness to him.

Or to make it totally homely: We "offer thanks" when we eat, right? In a way by that act of prayer and praise and recollection that all good things come from God, we "render holy" the meal.

I HATE talking about prayer and grace because it's right at that place where our action and God's action get all mixed up, so it's easy to slip into sounding like you think that YOU did something because YOU PRAYED. Romans 8 is SO important.

Dawg Summary (or, ahem, "epitome"): I never prayed a good prayer in my life. But the Holy Spirit has bailed me out a LOT and prayed better than I ever could and somehow he brought me along for the ride.

THANKS BE TO HIM! Without him it never would have occurred to me to pray, or that there was a God to pray to, or to see that God's hand in my life, or to bear my sorrows and my joys! I have nothing I have not received and it is HORRID to me to think of claiming a thing! All things come from Him and if I ever gave Him a thing, it was his already -- including my desire to give.

Right about here is where we fall at the foot of his throne.

2,451 posted on 06/14/2011 2:46:18 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

I always took it as meaning "empty" . When Ecclesiastes says, "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity" as translated by the same people, I think he means it's all dust, empty, useless -- a striving after wind.

Of course the other sense of vanity is one of those things too.

HOWEVER, I did a quick word study on the text the other day and the word in question, (it's just one word) is, transliterated, (got it right here) BattalogEsete (where the "E" is like the ay in HAY and the e is like the e in GET).

My helps say that it is a word we only have one other example of, So we can only guess at what it means by looking at the other translations. I just can't find my Vulgate Bible so I don't know what those guys thought it meant.

But it seems likely that the KJV guys chose their words by looking at how other earlier translations had handled it. That's my guess anyway.

I wonder if "mindless chatter" would be a good, if informal, translation. "Babble" might be good, but it always has overtones of the "Tower" so it might be over-specific. "Meaningless nattering" -- how about that?

Anyway, to repeat, I've always thought of it as essentially meaning "empty". I think the "I, me, mine" sense of vanity is comparatively modern. In The Piglrims Progress "Vanity Fair" is not about "I, me, mine" as much (IMHO, of course) as it is about attractive things to waste your time and attention on.

I have to be away from the confuser for an hour or so. I hope this has been somehow useful for you (and gives glory to God).

2,452 posted on 06/14/2011 2:59:12 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

Yes, I’ve enjoyed our afternoon back and forth! Much better than the morning began between us...Thanks for your information and may God’s Grace and Peace be with you always. Maranatha!

smvoice

2,453 posted on 06/14/2011 3:04:30 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

To: smvoice; Mad Dawg

Is it OK if I offer something to this dialogue?

2,454 posted on 06/14/2011 3:21:23 PM PDT by Running On Empty

To: Running On Empty; Mad Dawg

Of course it’s OK. Offer away :)

2,455 posted on 06/14/2011 3:22:32 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

To: smvoice; Running On Empty

2,456 posted on 06/14/2011 3:35:19 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)

To: Mad Dawg; smvoice

Some people want to know A, B, C, what do I have to do?

Then the follow up is: ok, how much A and how often? etc.

This approach of course misses the point, but over the years, the Church has amassed a great deal of information this type.

On the Protestant side, we find a similar thing, the sinner’s prayer:
http://www.jesus2020.com/?gclid=CPK-uMq1tqkCFYcb2godpVvGJA

Variations on this theme occur in most Protestant faiths.

Going to God with “what’s in it for me and what’s the least I have to do - precisely?” misses the point - again. But both sides have an answer of sorts, or you can read their doctrines and confessions with this in mind. The Catholic Church just has more details.

2,457 posted on 06/14/2011 3:36:41 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)

You are right. The only difference I would suggest is the “sinner’s prayer” is usually said once. The Rosary is not.

2,458 posted on 06/14/2011 3:39:44 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

Kewl !. Less effort, same bennies.

2,459 posted on 06/14/2011 3:41:17 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)

2,460 posted on 06/14/2011 3:45:41 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)

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