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The Companionship of the Holy Ghost - Mormon
LDS.org ^ | August 1988 | Carlos E. Asay

Posted on 07/25/2011 10:34:37 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

The Companionship of the Holy Ghost

By Elder Carlos E. Asay

Of the First Quorum of the Seventy

For many unmarried Latter-day Saints, particularly some of the single sisters, courtship and eternal companionship are unrealized dreams. You long for them, you know eternal companionship is a crucial part of the gospel, and yet you feel frustrated because no worthy partner is available.

It is tempting to wish that I could match you with perfect companions in an instant and send you off for the eternities in joyful marriages. But such a solution would be satanic. Satan, you will remember, wanted to dictate the courses of our lives, doing away with our testing and choosing, thus frustrating our Father’s plan and stopping our progress.

Your courtship with a mortal companion is not something you can dictate or plan by yourself. But there is a companionship of great and eternal significance over which you do have full and complete control. It is a companionship that can be obtained and enjoyed by all, regardless of age or sex. It is a companionship that heals loneliness, motivates to excellence, and gives meaning to life. It is the companionship of one of the members of the Godhead—the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Revelator, the Sanctifier, the Spirit of the Lord. It is a companionship which will assure you that you’re not alone, and will never be alone.

Mortal companionships—one person with another—are important and essential, and if they are cemented by love and mutual respect, they can become heavenly in nature and bring unspeakable joy. Any such companionship, however, becomes vacant and somewhat meaningless without the influence of the Holy Ghost. No mortal companionship ever overshadowed or surpassed in importance the binding of a person to the Spirit of the Lord.

“Prayed for That Which They Most Desired”

It is significant that while Christ taught and prayed with the Nephites, “they did pray for that which they most desired; and they desired that the Holy Ghost should be given unto them.” (3 Ne. 19:9.) As Church members, we have completed the necessary steps of faith, repentance, and baptism and have had authorized hands placed on our heads to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. But just as love between friends or companions must be cultivated and nourished like a tender plant, so likewise must a companionship with the Holy Spirit be cultivated.

When I was a young man I fell in love with a beautiful girl. More than anything in the world, I wanted to receive her love and eternal companionship. I therefore behaved my best, spoke my best, and gave my best as I courted her and sought to gain her favor. Even after she was promised to me, I recognized the need to continue the courting. My desire was, and still is, to please her and to avoid any offense. She is my inspiration, my motivation to live on a high and noble level.

The companionship of the Holy Ghost is cultivated in much the same manner. To obtain his influence and companionship, we must be our best; we must be worthy of his presence. I see five things we must do to attract and retain the Holy Spirit.

1. We must keep our bodies clean.

We must not pollute our mortal tabernacles in any way. We must live the Word of Wisdom; we must not misuse our powers of procreation; we must do whatever is possible to avoid disease or other enemies of our physical bodies. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” (1 Cor. 3:16–17.)

2. We must keep our minds clean.

We must guard against all suggestive and carnal notions and other satanic influences. From the Doctrine and Covenants, we receive this advice and promise: “Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion.” (D&C 121:45–46.)

Few things are more repulsive than evil minds and the filth they produce. Can one hope to enjoy the companionship of the Holy Spirit when one is double-minded—that, when his mind shares time with the evil one? I think not.

3. We must exercise faith and reserve a place in our hearts for the Holy Spirit.

Manifestations of the Spirit of God, we are told, are forfeited in the absence of faith. Moroni spoke openly of the gifts of the Spirit, including healing and tongues, then cautioned: “All these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.” (Moro. 10:19.)

It is most important that we understand “that the Holy Ghost may have place in [our] hearts” only when we exercise faith in Christ. (Moro. 7:32.) How can we be acceptable to the Holy Ghost without recognizing and acknowledging those whom he represents—those of whom he testifies and bears witness? Loving and seeking the Christlike life is true worship—the kind of worship that opens our lives to the power of the Holy Ghost.

4. We must avoid all iniquity, all manner of wickedness.

As stated previously, gifts of the Lord cease when faith is missing. The same applies, and the problem is compounded, when iniquity is present.

Alma said, “No unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.” (Alma 11:37.) Similarly, no unclean person can achieve a lasting relationship with the Spirit of God.

5. We must pray, feast upon the words of Christ, and walk uprightly before God.

The Spirit of the Lord teaches and entices a man to pray. (See 2 Ne. 32:8–9.) The words of Christ help us to understand who the Holy Spirit is and how he may be invited into our presence. (See 2 Ne. 32:1–3.) The Spirit of God persuades men to do good and to believe in Christ. (See Ether 4:11–12; Moro. 7:16–17.) So prayer, scripture study, and righteous living are musts.

The skeptic or gospel novice might inquire: “Why seek the Holy Ghost? Why strive for his companionship? What is in it for me?” Answers to these questions are abundant if we are receptive to the testimonies of those who know and have associated with the Spirit of the Lord. Some of these testimonies help to answer questions about the value of association with the Holy Ghost.

Would you like to possess perfect foresight, perfected powers to anticipate what to do under certain circumstances? If so, you must do as Nephi directed: “Enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, [for] it will show unto you all things what ye should do.” (2 Ne. 32:5.)

“Would You Like the Power of Discernment?”

Would you like to have powers of discernment—the power to identify truth? If so, you must read the word of God, acknowledge God’s Goodness, ponder, and ask of God. Through doing this, Moroni testifies, “By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” (Moro. 10:5.)

While I was a mission president in Texas, I was informed that a particular missionary had lost his testimony and wanted to go home. Some checking disclosed that doubts of the divinity of his call had been planted in the young man’s mind by an investigator. In an interview with the so-called investigator, I experienced special powers of discernment that enabled me to know that the man was a minister of another faith, posing as a college student and pretending to be an honest investigator of Mormonism. Confronted with the knowledge that had been revealed to me, he became confused and admitted his fraud. With the deceiver out of the way and the truth known, the missionary stayed and completed an honorable mission.

On one occasion, a missionary in the final week of his mission reminded me that I had given him clearance two years previously to serve a mission. The clearance had been extended with some reservations on my part because he had indulged in a number of transgressions before his mission. He said: “Elder Asay, you allowed me to go into the field after due repentance and after I promised that I would be strictly obedient and would work diligently. I can assure you that I have worked hard and have obeyed every rule.” Then he said something very significant. “I feel that my sins have been forgiven. I feel perfectly clean.” He had been cleansed through selfless service and by developing a close association with the Holy Spirit. He had been through the refiner’s fire, and impurities had been burned away.

“Would You Like to Hear Revelations from God?”

Would you like to have the power to hear, feel, and know the revelations of God? Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord promised, “I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost. … This is the spirit of revelation.” (D&C 8:2–3.)

I have heard President Marion G. Romney, at the conclusion of his testimony in a temple meeting, say something like this: “You may not have needed to hear what I have said today and you probably didn’t learn anything new. However, I learned something while speaking and I needed to hear these words.” This is a beautiful and open acknowledgment of the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Would you like to enjoy spiritual gifts—powers to heal, be healed, speak in tongues, for example? If so, give heed to the prophet Moroni’s words: “And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.” (Moro. 10:17.)

Would you like convincing powers of speech—the power to speak like an angel? If so, note Nephi’s question, “Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels?” (2 Ne. 32:2.)

Thirty years ago, while I served as a missionary in the Near East, my companion and I were assigned to visit a branch that had been torn apart by division and apostasy. We approached our assignment humbly and prayerfully. A crucial meeting was held involving the disaffected parties. My companion was selected to preach the sermon that we hoped would bring everyone together again. After we had fasted and prayed earnestly, he stood with confidence and worked the miracle. He spoke with the tongue of an angel. That young, inexperienced elder’s words healed wounds festering in the hearts of men much older than he, prompted confessions, and literally saved a branch of the Church.

“Would You Like the Power to Resist Temptation?”

Would you like the power to ward off and resist temptation? If so, do as Alma and Paul suggested: “Pray continually, … and thus be led by the Holy Spirit.” (Alma 13:28.)

Would you like to obtain perfect peace and assurance in all that you do? If so, make the Holy Ghost your companion and you, too, may receive the type of assurance given Nephi and Lehi: “Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.” (Hel. 5:47.)

Finally, would you like the power to perform beyond your natural abilities? Would you like the help of unseen powers in all that you do? I refer to the power to speak with convincing authority—even the power to receive promptings that enable you to say things that you had not planned. I speak of the power to receive impressions, which, if heeded, bring blessings to you and others.

Mortal men and women are endowed with marvelous abilities and potential. But however great these mortal powers may be, they are only a shadow of those powers that can be claimed through a linkage with the Holy Spirit.

I hope you do not say to yourself that these words about a companionship with the Spirit are for someone else, not you. God is no respecter of persons. His blessings and gifts are not reserved for a precious few. It matters not whether you are an Apostle or a deacon, a Relief Society officer or a Primary teacher. All of us have the promise of gifts of the Spirit if we place ourselves in a position to claim them.

If your introduction to this divine companion seems incomplete, review your baptism and confirmation and determine whether you have really received him as you were commanded to do. Pay careful attention to your physical cleanliness, the cleanliness of your thoughts, the extent of your faith in Christ, your inclination to avoid all manner of sin, and your prayer and study habits.

It is wise from time to time to do some reflective thinking and determine whether you really know the Holy Ghost. Pause long enough to measure your acquaintance with spiritual gifts and powers. See whether foresight, discernment, sanctification, revelation, spiritual gifts, angelic speech, peace of assurance, and attendant blessings are evident in your life. Determine whether spiritual experiences are sprinkled generously throughout your daily living. And, if you find yourself wanting, have the courage to change and place your life in order.

If you will do these things, you need never be alone, for you will have the most important companion of all—the Holy Ghost.



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; antimormonfatwa; antimormonhatred; antimormonjihad; antimormonrant; beck; bitterformermormon; glennbeck; inman; mormoaner; mormon; religiousbigotry; romney; zealot
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To: reaganaut

“For the LDS it is all about making ‘the church’ look good, or earning godhood for themselves, not about showing Christ (outside of any church) to the world.”


With respect, reaganaut, you have no ability to know the motivation of every Latter-day Saint in the world. Your blanket statement is absurd. You certainly do not know what motivates me, and I can assure you that you have me “figured out” all wrong.

Best regards,

Normandy


251 posted on 07/28/2011 5:27:46 PM PDT by Normandy
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To: Normandy
You certainly do not know what motivates me, and I can assure you that you have me “figured out” all wrong.

I know: CHRIST does.

And apparently MORMONism doesn't, as you never seem to talk about it.

252 posted on 07/28/2011 7:36:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Normandy

I’ve been there, I’ve seen it firsthand and it was always the same.

Are you working towards getting to the CK and Exaltation? You do know that LDSinc has a whole list of ‘good works’ that are needed.

I’m not even sure you can admit what your motivation really is. I know I couldn’t when I was LDS. Only after the Spirit opened my eyes did I see LDS motives for what they were.

Hindsight is 20/20


253 posted on 07/28/2011 8:10:23 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut
 FREE KITTENS

A pretty little girl named Suzy was standing on the sidewalk in front of her home in Salt Lake City. Next to her was a basket containing a number of tiny creatures; in her hand was a sign announcing FREE KITTENS.

Suddenly a line of big black cars pulled up beside her. Out of the lead car stepped a tall, grinning man.

"Hi there little girl, I'm President Thomas Monson. What do you have in the basket?" he asked.

"Kittens," little Suzy said.

"How old are they?" asked Monson.

Suzy replied, "They're so young, their eyes aren't even open yet."

"And what kind of kittens are they?"

"Mormons," answered Suzy with a smile.

Thompson was delighted. As soon as he returned to his car, he called his PR chief and told him about the little girl and the kittens.

Recognizing the perfect photo op, the two men agreed that the president should return the next day; and in front of the assembled media, have the girl talk about her discerning kittens.

 

 

So the next day, Suzy was again standing on the sidewalk with her basket of "FREE KITTENS," when another motorcade pulled up, this time followed by vans from Deseret News, The Ensign magazine  and KSL.

Cameras and audio equipment were quickly set up, then Thompson got out of his limo and walked over to little Suzy.

"Hello, again," he said, "I'd love it if you would tell all my friends out there what kind of kittens you're giving away."

"Yes sir," Suzy said. "They're Christians."

Taken by surprise, the Living Prophet® stammered, "But... but... yesterday, you told me they were MORMONS."

Little Suzy smiled and said, "I know. But today, they have their eyes open"



254 posted on 07/29/2011 5:09:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie; SENTINEL; SZonian

“Yes sir,” Suzy said. “They’re Christians.”

Taken by surprise, the Living Prophet® stammered, “But... but... yesterday, you told me they were MORMONS.”

Little Suzy smiled and said, “I know. But today, they have their eyes open”

- - - - - -
Closer to the truth than you can even imagine. Once your eyes begin to open it happens quickly.


255 posted on 07/29/2011 7:16:57 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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THX 1138


256 posted on 07/29/2011 8:52:21 AM PDT by svcw (democrats are liars, it's a given)
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To: svcw

Nothing good in Mormonism placemarker


257 posted on 07/30/2011 12:23:47 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: John McDonnell; Elsie; Godzilla
Now that I got you to blink, I can easily dispense of your quotes of Mormon leaders doing what Elsie did by stating AGAIN that I have never been a Mormon. There is no link between me and a bunch of wicked old Mormons of the past, except for the common sinful human nature that links us all.

So you're saying there's "no link between me and a bunch of wicked old Mormons of the past" -- like Joseph Smith? What? Didn't you see in the post you responded to I mentioned Smith? You now concede Joseph Smith is a "wicked old Mormon"? Yes?

I quoted Joseph Smith, and you toss him in with the "wicked old Mormons of the past": "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the DEVIL, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Did you also notice I included John Taylor? Wasn't Taylor shot in 1844 alongside Joseph Smith in jail? Wasn't John Taylor Smith's "sidekick" as a Smith-appointed "apostle?" And so you concede that the apostles Joseph Smith chose were "wicked old Mormons"? Yes? (Go past to my post where I said: John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense..the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167).

You also note that Mormonism's "jumpstart" is the Book of MORMON. I cited the Book of Mormon, which you have elevated in your life. You now concede that the content of the Book of Mormon was put together by "wicked old Mormons?"

John, here I carefully avoided quoting any UTAH Mormon leaders who BEGAN their Mormon leadership after Smith's death...and here you distance yourself from Joseph Smith, his apostle, and the Book of Mormon?

Well keep up the confessions! They are good for the soul!

258 posted on 07/31/2011 5:53:04 AM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Colofornian

bttt


259 posted on 07/31/2011 11:47:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
I believe that you are twisting my reference to "wicked old Mormons" to suit your agenda. I had pointed out that the Mormon leaders involved in polygamy, to answer criticism from Latter Day Saints who claimed that polygamy was an apostate invention, lied about Joseph Smith Jr to justify their sins.
The evidence for this is there for those who seek the truth:

(1) The pretended "revelation" by Joseph Smith Jr was not published until several years after polygamy had already been practised in Utah.

(2) Mormon polygamy became prevalent after the Mormon church followed Brigham Young out of the United States and her domain of laws in which polygamy must not exist.

(3) Mormon missionaries in Britain and Europe did not tell converts about polygamy. When converts migrated to Utah they were shocked to find it practised. Many of the migrants sought to escape, and many of those who did escape joined the RLDS, which was nobly trying to expose polygamy as a gross apostacy from church teachings.

See http://www.angelfire.com/ks/landzastanza/scarlet.html

(4) Mormon leaders did not allow the 1835 statement by church leaders, including Joseph Smith Jr, supporting monogamous marriage to remain in their Doctrine and Covenants, when they added the pretended "revelation" on polygamy.

(5) Joseph Smith III's interview with his mother, the former Emma Smith, was not a case of Emma trying to protect her family, because her RLDS church president son was adamant in insisting that she not do that, that the church, to avoid future embarrassment, must have the truth, even if it is ugly. Fully understanding the concern of her son, she insisted that Joseph Smith Jr had no wife other than herself.

(6) The reference to Emma Smith in the forged "revelation" was consistent with Brigham Young's hatred for her. He was livid that she did not release to him the manuscripts of Joseph Smith Jr.'s revision of the Bible. He was livid that she would not support his attempts at church leadership. So while forging the "revelation", slipping in some wording that has God condemning her for not supporting polygamy, was probably his way of lashing back at her.

The motives of those who wanted to brand Joseph Smith as a polygamist must be critically examined before their statements can be accepted as reliable.

"Wicked old Mormons" was intended to describe Mormons who told lies to justify their sins. Joseph Smith Jr was not a polygamist, nor did he encourage anyone to practise it. Brigham Young forged a document to the contrary, and the undiscerning gleefully latch on to that for reasons that should be also be critically examined.

260 posted on 07/31/2011 4:34:43 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell
The motives of those who wanted to brand Joseph Smith as a polygamist must be critically examined before their statements can be accepted as reliable.

Please tell us the "motives" Joseph F. Smith had to lie about his uncle when he said Smith was given the go-ahead for polygamy as early as 1832. Joseph F. Smith made that statement in 1878 -- when he was not beholden to Brigham Young...Brigham died in 1877.

You do always go around slandering & insinuating things re: the close family membes of Joseph Smith?

261 posted on 07/31/2011 5:00:17 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: John McDonnell; Godzilla; Elsie; All
Joseph Smith Jr was not a polygamist/...

Anybody have a "head in the sand" award we could give to John???

262 posted on 07/31/2011 5:01:50 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: John McDonnell
I believe that you are twisting my reference to "wicked old Mormons" to suit your agenda. I had pointed out that the Mormon leaders involved in polygamy, to answer criticism from Latter Day Saints who claimed that polygamy was an apostate invention, lied about Joseph Smith Jr to justify their sins.

No, John, you are the distorter.

I said nothing about polygamy in post #222.

You then responded in post #228: Now that I got you to blink, I can easily dispense of your quotes of Mormon leaders doing what Elsie did by stating AGAIN that I have never been a Mormon. There is no link between me and a bunch of wicked old Mormons of the past...

Since I quoted the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and Joseph's sidekick John Taylor re: the "devilish" words tossed @ Christians, then, no, you can't "easily dispense of" the quotes I used.

In fact, you still haven't addressed most of post #222!

YOU are the one who used the term "wicked old Mormons" on a post in response to my post which said NOTHING about polygamy...so don't play word & mind games, John. You can read, can't you?

263 posted on 07/31/2011 5:08:23 PM PDT by Colofornian (Friends don't let friends drive drunk on Joe Smith sentimentalism to an outer darkness destination.)
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To: Colofornian
You also note that Mormonism's "jumpstart" is the Book of MORMON. I cited the Book of Mormon, which you have elevated in your life. You now concede that the content of the Book of Mormon was put together by "wicked old Mormons?"

I made no such concession, and I think that you know that. The content of the Book of Mormon could not have been put together by "wicked old Mormons", which refers to polygamists, because polygamists would never have put together a book that has the strongest polygamy in religious literature.

"... they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before Me, saith the Lord."

The King James Version of the Bible, in I Kings 11:4 seems to approve of the David's polygamy:

"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father."

Joseph Smith Jr, in his revision of the Bible, made I Kings 11:4 read:

For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, and it became as the heart of David his father."

Thus, Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible took into consideration the condemnation of polygamy in the Book of Mormon. This may explain why Brigham Young was anxious to obtain from Emma Smith the manuscripts of Joseph Smith's Bible revision. Young would no doubt have suppressed Joseph Smith Jr's revision of I Kings 11:4, and other similar revisions. Emma Smith gave the manuscripts of Joseph Smigh Jr's Bible translation to the RLDS, who published it to the joy of those contending against Mormon polygamy and to the chagrin of Brigham Young.

264 posted on 07/31/2011 5:28:56 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian
The content of the Book of Mormon could not have been put together by "wicked old Mormons", which refers to polygamists, because polygamists would never have put together a book that has the strongest polygamy in religious literature.

Hi John, how's the water, seeing that you are in denial. Sadly for your case, the evidence is more than adequate to show smith and others were practicing polygamy from early on - long before Young and Utah.

Joseph Smith Jr, in his revision of the Bible, made I Kings 11:4 read:

Joseph Smith's - revision - much better word than translation - is still bogus - as there is no extant ms that supports his 'revision'. Just like all else - he was a false prophet.

265 posted on 07/31/2011 5:37:01 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Colofornian
Please tell us the "motives" Joseph F. Smith had to lie about his uncle when he said Smith was given the go-ahead for polygamy as early as 1832. Joseph F. Smith made that statement in 1878 -- when he was not beholden to Brigham Young...Brigham died in 1877.

You can't be serious! Joseph F. Smith was a polygamist. He had every incentive to justify his sins, and therefore would quite apt to twist anything to make it look like Joseph Smith Jr was a polygamist!

In the memoirs of Joseph Smith III (1832-1914), who, beginning in 1860, served as president of the Reorganized church, are poignant accounts of his encountering plural wives during his missionary trips through Utah.

"I was once invited to [cousin] Joseph F.'s. He received me kindly as I arrived, and we chatted for a little while before supper was announced.... To me the situation in which I found myself seemed very strange. For the first time in my life I was permitted to see thus at close range the domestic relations of a polygamous family and the actual operation of a doctrine which had long been unspeakably repulsive to me. The very fibers of my being seemed to cry out in protest, and so strong was my prejudice and antipathy that I seemed to feel almost physically ill as I contemplated the scene. There, at one board sat a complacent man, surrounded by three wives and a large number of children ... The women did not take much part in our conversation. I thought I detected upon the countenances of two of them, evidence of some distress of mind, and possibly, regret, as if they were conscious that the opinions I would form of their family relations were not likely to be very complimentary to them."

266 posted on 07/31/2011 5:39:53 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: Godzilla
Sadly for your case, the evidence is more than adequate to show smith and others were practicing polygamy from early on - long before Young and Utah.

Your "evidence" is tainted. The two main sources for charges of early polygamy teaching are: (1) polygamists seeking to justify their sins; (2) enemies of the church who were anxious to find anything negative about the church so that they could gleefully trumpet it.

Among the evidence against early polygamy teaching are:

(1) the continued publication of the Book of Mormon with its condemnation of polygamy.

(2) The "law of the church" in the Doctrine and Covenants revelation of February 9, 1831, which states: "Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else; and he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not, he shall be cast out."

(3) Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible in 1833, which made revisions supporting the condemnation of polygamy in the Book of Mormon.

(4) the 1835 statement by church leaders on marriage that was from then on, until Brigham Young had it removed, published in Doctrine and Covenments: "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."

(5) removals from church membership, during the presidency of Joseph Smith Jr, of persons engaging in adulterous relationships.

(6) the interview of the former Emma Smith by her son Joseph Smith III, before which she understood that the truth no matter how ugly was to be told, and she stated that she knew of no other wife, spiritual or otherwise, of her former husband (after his death, Emma remarried).

267 posted on 07/31/2011 6:25:59 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian
Your "evidence" is tainted.

And your 'evidence' is even more tainted John. Emma had a BIG bone to pick and when her son wasn't selected as the next prophet - she struck out at those who continued leadership. As pointed out before, even founders of RLDS acknowledged smith to be a polygamist. There is also the testimony of those women who were smith's wives and the testimony of his contemporaries - even those who were NOT involved in polygamy.

(1) the continued publication of the Book of Mormon with its condemnation of polygamy.

John, the bom was continued to be produced even AFTER smith and during the open polygamy period. Thus your evidence is invalid.

(2) The "law of the church" in the Doctrine and Covenants revelation of February 9, 1831, which states: "Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else; and he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not, he shall be cast out."

Yes, and this wouldn't be the first time smith out and out lied John. He also lied about the bom, he lied about the Kirkland bank, he lied about his temple rituals, he lied about the wow - so it is not surprising he lied against Church law.

4) the 1835 statement by church leaders on. .

Another documented lie.

(5) removals from church membership, during the presidency of Joseph Smith Jr, of persons engaging in adulterous relationships.

LOL - adulterous indeed - just those who jumped the gun or fell into smith's disfavor.

(6) the interview of the former Emma Smith

As stated before - she lied to protect her children.

But that isn't the whole story is it John. Smith admitted it.

"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259

And if we are to take the bom witnesses seriously, then their testimony about smith's marriage to Fanny Alger should be accepted too - as it was a "a dirty, nasty, filthy affair..." (Cowdrey)

268 posted on 07/31/2011 7:00:34 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
And your 'evidence' is even more tainted

Your "even more" is an admission that your evidence is tainted.

269 posted on 07/31/2011 7:34:56 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian
Your "even more" is an admission that your evidence is tainted.

To the extent that there is personal opinion - one could say. However, you overtly avoided smith's own admission - is smith "tainted"? Further there is the scope of the evidence John. there are the testimonies of his other wives, testimonies of his closest associates, the reason for the destruction of the Expositor, etc. And speaking of tainted, how tainted were the founders of rlds WHO stated smith was a polygamist (cited previously).

Really now John, Occam's razor really comes into play here. Not all the sources stating smith was a polygamist were trying to "justify" their sinful behavior, not all the evidence is completely colored as to render it unusable. Plain and simple John.

And you have a 'testimony' of a boy who's mom hated the polygamy smith started and sought to set her son as the next prophet - creating a schism on a key point - polygamy. A myth built upon the myth of mormonism John.

The composite evidence John, outweighs the evidence you've provided to date.

270 posted on 07/31/2011 7:46:29 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
even founders of RLDS acknowledged smith to be a polygamist

That statement is an oversimplification, especially since the RLDS came to believe on good evidence that Joseph Smith Jr was not a polygamist. Back when they were contending against polygamy, RLDS ministers liked to quote Jeremiah 17:5-8, reading into it as follows:

"Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord [Brigham Young]. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh [the Reorganization]; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness [beyond the reach of American law], in a salt land and not inhabited [Salt Lake City and surroundings]. Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is. For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the [Missouri] river, and shall not see when the heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit."

God loves repentance. No matter what the sins of the Mormon church were, that church is doing much more good than evil now. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:7-9).

271 posted on 07/31/2011 8:23:51 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell
(6) the interview of the former Emma Smith by her son Joseph Smith III, before which she understood that the truth no matter how ugly was to be told, and she stated that she knew of no other wife, spiritual or otherwise, of her former husband (after his death, Emma remarried).

History has recorded a bit different story than you have related here...

Eliza was a devout Mormon.
At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma).
In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and
knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.

Miss Eliza R. Snow  was one of the first (willing) victims of Joseph in Nauvoo. She used to be much at the prophet’s house he made her one of his celestial brides... . Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge: and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son (Dr. W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 1886, pp.57-58).

The Mormon writer Claire Noall acknowledged: “Willard realized that Emma had refused to believe that any of the young women boarding at the Mansion when it was first used as a hotel had been married to Joseph. She had struck Eliza Snow at the head of the stairs, and Eliza, it was whispered, had lost her unborn child” (Intimate Disciple, a Portrait of Willard Richards, 1957, p.407).

Sometime during February of 1843 Emma evidently became aware that Joseph had taken her best friend, Eliza R. Snow, as a plural wife. Eliza was currently living in the Smith home, which housed a number of boarders. LDS historians Linda Newell and Valeen Avery wrote:

When the full realization of the relationship between her friend Eliza and her husband Joseph came to her, Emma was stunned. . . . Although no contemporary account of the incident between Emma and Eliza remains extant, evidence leads to the conclusion that some sort of physical confrontation occurred between the two women. In 1886 Wilhelm Wyl published the first known version of the incident in his book, Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and His Friends:

They say . . . there is scarcely a Mormon unacquainted with the fact that Sister Emma . . . soon found out the little compromise arranged between Joseph and Eliza. Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge; and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son...

Another story, attributed to LeRoi C. Snow, Eliza’s nephew, is an oral family tradition that tells of Emma knocking Eliza down the stairs with a broom, the fall resulting in a miscarriage for Eliza. . . .

Whether Eliza fell down the stairs or whether Emma pushed her or pulled her down by the hair, or whether Emma only turned her out of the house, the result seems to be documented in Eliza’s terse journal entry for February 11, 1843:

‘Took board and had my lodging removed to the residence of br. [Jonathan] Holmes.’

Eliza did not make another entry in her journal for five weeks and wrote no explanation for either the gap in her diary or her abrupt departure from Emma’s home. . . .

Several acquaintances of Eliza spoke of Emma discovering Eliza’s relationship with Joseph, leading to her departure.

 

The incident between Emma and Eliza forced the issue of plural marriage into the open. Emma could no longer believe that Joseph was not involved, and he could no longer deny it. Emma had not acted with violence before; now her determined opposition might show up again with unexpected force. Joseph resolutely tried to bring Emma around (Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, 1994, pp. 134-137).



http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no106.htm

 



 
 

272 posted on 07/31/2011 9:01:53 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: John McDonnell
No matter what the sins of the Mormon church were, that church is doing much more good than evil now.

 
They would not listen, however, but persisted in their former practices.
Even while these people were worshiping the Lord, they were serving their idols.
To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did.
 
 2 Kings 17:40-41 


273 posted on 07/31/2011 9:04:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
"To this day their children and grandchildren continue to do as their fathers did."

Elsie applied this to the present Mormon church. Since the Mormon church no longer practises blood atonement and polygamy, it is not continuing to do as their fathers did. Therefore, the application is false.

The application is true, however, concerning baptism for the dead, which is not mentioned in the fullness of the gospel. Here, the Mormon church, even if it came to realize that baptism for the dead is a false doctrine, could not discard it without offending its membership. The RLDS was correct to reject Joseph Smith Jr's "revelations" on baptism for the dead, because Community of Christ believes in the principle of common consent. The president of the church, past or present, cannot force on her anything claiming to be of divine origin. The church, must, through delegates to a general conference, either accept or reject communications claiming divine origin, and without such acceptance, they cannot have scriptural authority for the church. The documents on baptism for the dead, as first presented, were never given approval by a general conference of the church.

274 posted on 08/01/2011 5:11:20 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell
Therefore, the application is false.

You got the speck and missed the mote.

I am at a disadvantage on knowing which SLC doctrines the RLDS folks do not accept.

Likewise; I am at a disadvantage on knowing which SLC PRACTICES the RLDS folks do not participate in.

Setting the minutia aside, the very basis for ALL of the MORMONic sects is faulty, so just exactly how many angels are dancing on which heretical point is moot to me.


The application is true, however, concerning baptism for the dead, which is not mentioned in the fullness of the gospel.

Perhaps you, John, can show us just where, in the BoM, this so called FULLNESS is found.

NONE of the SLC MORMONs on FR have been able to do it.

275 posted on 08/01/2011 6:08:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: John McDonnell
The documents on baptism for the dead, as first presented, were never given approval by a general conference of the church.

Religion by commitee.

Who needs it?

Do they ALL put their faces into a hat to discern the TRUENESS or 'revelation'?

276 posted on 08/01/2011 6:10:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: John McDonnell
The documents on baptism for the dead, as first presented, were never given approval by a general conference of the church.

The SLC mormon church has latched onto every possible method of making money from tithing from members...from baptism for the dead to not allowing "unworthies" to attend family weddings to coercing members to scrub toilets in the name of "service"...I imagine that already the savings from firing paid janitors has shown up in the claims of mormon benevolence to the needy.

277 posted on 08/01/2011 7:09:56 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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To: Godzilla
you overtly avoided smith's own admission

If I had the date of the first publication of it, the name and motives of the publisher of it, and some commentary on it from persons other than enemies of the church, for balance, then I might be able to deal with it. My guess is that it was fabricated by polygamists to justify their sins, or by enemies of the church who thought they could get away with "making things up".

Some lies are so impressive that they are taken as fact. For example, Tina Fey's imitation of Sarah Palin saying, "I can see Russia from my house," is taken by many as being something that Sarah Palin actually said, and many will never, because they are closeminded, believe that she did not say it.

278 posted on 08/01/2011 8:06:35 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell

The application is true, however, concerning baptism for the dead, which is not mentioned in the fullness of the gospel. Here, the Mormon church, even if it came to realize that baptism for the dead is a false doctrine, could not discard it without offending its membership.
___________________________________________________

How about offending the non-members who are members of other religions, say Christianity ???

The Mormons sont seem worried about that little inconvenience...

The following answers on dead dunking Catholics around the world are from the Poland forum of a geneological website ...

_______________________________________________________

The Vatican objects to the Mormons practice of using the information from the records to do posthumous rebaptisms.

A January 29, 2008 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith expressed “grave reservations”.

The April 5, 2008 letter was from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy. Both are legitimate groups with in the Catholic Church. Jewish leaders also consider this practice to be disrespectful to the dead.

In 2001, the Catholic Church published a document stating that it does not consider any baptisms by Latter-day Saints to be valid.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

http://genforum.genealogy.com/poland/messages/45444.html
_____________________________________________

Gilberto,

Here is the official stance on the LDS records. Hopefully
will answer your questions:

Vatican Orders Records Withheld from Mormons

The Catholic News Service has published an article about new Vatican orders to not cooperate with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the microfilming of records. The Vatican wishes to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a practice that Catholics, Jews, and some others find objectionable.

Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons’ Genealogical Society of Utah.

An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in those registers.

The order came in light of “grave reservations” expressed in a January 29 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the clergy congregation’s letter said.

You can read more at

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/poland/messages/45423.html


279 posted on 08/01/2011 8:08:30 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian
even founders of RLDS acknowledged smith to be a polygamist
That statement is an oversimplification,. . .

No simplification involved - it is a statement of fact. Additionally -

June 7, 1844 -- William Law, 2nd counselor in the 1st presidency, leaves the church over polygamy and Joseph's denial of it. Soon thereafter, he publishes the 1st and only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor, which claims 1st-hand testimony from several sources that Joseph was practicing polygamy, counter to his public denials. This was NOT an individual attempting to justify their "sin" John. As such is not one of your 'tainted' sources'.

In 1838,Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated, at least in part, for accusing Joseph Smith of adultery with Fanny Alger. He was NOT trying to justify his sins John

D&C 132 was written while emma was still alive - you may argue exactly when, but it states "52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God." I believe that the use of the PAST TENSE here makes it clear.

280 posted on 08/01/2011 8:18:51 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Elsie
Religion by commitee. Who needs it? Do they ALL put their faces into a hat to discern the TRUENESS or 'revelation'?

Jesus taught: "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye canniot bear them now. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:12-13). When people gather in the name of Christ to advance His cause, the Spirit can, through their prayerful deliberations, guide them. Interactions in the Spirit are mind-expanding, soul-inspiring experiences. The Acts of the Apostles demonstrate that church conferences helped the church stay focused on its service to Christ. They could be contentious, at times, but a good course of action would usually prevail. Through the guidance of the Spirit, early church conferences dealt with the numerous problems they faced, clearing the way for many great and marvelous works to be accomplished. Isolated Christians might individually do much good, but organized actions having the full blessings of the Spirit can change the course of history.

281 posted on 08/01/2011 8:42:42 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian
If I had the date of the first publication of it, the name and motives of the publisher of it, and some commentary on it from persons other than enemies of the church, for balance, then I might be able to deal with it.

LOL, living in da state of de nile.

My guess is that it was fabricated by polygamists to justify their sins, or by enemies of the church who thought they could get away with "making things up".

Sound more like you are the one making things up John - with such an unsubstatiated denial.

Some lies are so impressive that they are taken as fact. For example, Tina Fey's imitation of Sarah Palin saying, "I can see Russia from my house," is taken by many as being something that Sarah Palin actually said, and many will never, because they are closeminded, believe that she did not say it.

Fact of the matter John, this isn't a Tina Fey joke. Nor was it a joke to the over 30 women Smith had taken to wife.

What other restoration leader from the early 1800's was accused time and time again for polygamy John? Generally where there is smoke, there is fire and as I pointed out in prior post - many sources were not trying to justify their 'sin' of polygamy when they were pointing out smith's polygamy. Again, why was the mormon church the only one singled out for practicing polygamy in smith's day? Why did they have to so vigorously deny the practice?

Remarkably, it has been shown that smith wasn't the only one lying about it. John Taylor declared to be false the accusation “of polygamy and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief.” At the time of that emphatic pronouncement, Taylor (who would later become church president) had ten plural wives.

More from smith's own hand -

Joseph Smith, 27 July 1842, Nauvoo, Illinois
(Unpublished Revelations 59)
Verily, thus saith the Lord unto my servant Newel K. Whitney,
2 The thing that my servant Joseph Smith has made known unto you and your family and which you have agreed upon is right in mine eyes,
3 And shall be crowned upon your heads with honour and immortality and eternal life to all your house, both old and young because of the lineage of my Priesthood, saith the Lord,
4 It shall be upon you and upon your children after you from generation to generation, by virtue of the holy promise which I now make unto you, saith the Lord.
5 These are the words which you shall pronounce upon my servant Joseph and your daughter Sarah Ann Whitney.
6 They shall take each other by the hand and you shall say,
7 You both mutually agree, calling them by name, to be each other's companion so long as you both shall live, preserving yourselves for each other and from all others, and also throughout all eternity, reserving only those rights which have been given to my servant Joseph by revelation and commandment and by legal authority in times past.
8 If you both agree to covenant and do this, then I give you Sarah Ann Whitney, my daughter, to Joseph Smith, to be his wife, to observe all the rights between you both that belong to that condition.
9 I do it in my own name and in the name of your wife, your mother, and in the name of my holy progenitors, by right of birth which is of priesthood, vested in me by revelation and commandment and promise of the living God, obtained through the holy Melchizedek, Jethro and other of the holy fathers commanding in the name of the Lord all those powers to concentrate in you and through to your posterity forever.
10 All these things I do in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that through this order he may be glorified and through the power of the anointing David may reign king over Israel, which shall hereafter be revealed.
11 Let immortality and eternal life henceforth be sealed upon your heads forever and ever.
Joseph Smith Collection, Church Historians Office

Well I guess this is "tainted" since Smith was trying to justify his polygamy.

Sidney Rigdon's daughter, Nancy When Smith proposed marriage in April 1842 to Nancy Rigdon, nineteen-year-old daughter of his close friend and counselor, Sidney Rigdon, he reportedly took her into a room, "locked the door, and then stated to her that he had had an affection for her for several years, and wished that she should be his." Nancy refused him, saying she would only marry a single man. The following day Smith explained in a letter to her: "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." He added, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof." She remained unconvinced. Nancy, her brother John, and her brother-in-law George W. Robinson testified in sworn affidavits that the Joseph Smith had proposed "spiritual marriage" to her. Smith publicly denied the accusations. ("The Letter of the Prophet, Joseph Smith to Miss Nancy Rigdon," Joseph Smith Collection, LDS archives; History of The Church 5:134-36. Sidney Rigdon Biography, Richard S. Van Wagoner, Chapter 21)

Nancy rejected smith's proposal - thus her testimony does not contain your precious 'tainting' John. Oh, and the letter is from smith John, not a forgery. BTW John, Rigdon was not a supporter of polygamy either.

Open your self to the truth - it is freeing John.

282 posted on 08/01/2011 8:50:07 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
No simplification involved - it is a statement of fact.

There are no simple facts in complex situations like the Reorganization of the church, which developed after all of the confusion during the Nauvoo period of church history and the rivalries after the death of Joseph Smith Jr. It has been a while since I have read the volumes of RLDS church history. The movement to reorganize seemed to be blessed by the Spirit, especially in gatherings of saints, but the individual leaders had greatly differing views about how to reorganize. As the process unfolded through many deliberations, certain leaders did not like the direction being established and left. But the testimony of the majority was that the Spirit was guiding them. In 1860, Joseph Smith III became a spokeman for that guidance. As with anything else, we need to know who, what, when, where, and why disgruntled persons made statements (which are gleefully quoted by Mormon-haters without regard for who, what, when, where, and why).

283 posted on 08/01/2011 9:04:07 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian; Elsie; ejonesie22
There are no simple facts in complex situations like the Reorganization of the church, which developed after all of the confusion during the Nauvoo period of church history and the rivalries after the death of Joseph Smith Jr.

When it comes to the simplest of facts John - that it is well documented the Smith was a polygamist - even your earliest leaders acknowledged such, there is very little confusion about that - unless as you've stated before, your leaders were trying to justify their sins too.

As with anything else, we need to know who, what, when, where, and why disgruntled persons made statements (which are gleefully quoted by Mormon-haters without regard for who, what, when, where, and why).

Two (2) statements by smith in his own handwriting acknowledging that he practiced and endorsed polygamy - guess that makes him a VERY disgruntled person eh John? It very much addresses the who, what, where, when and why. Cowdrey excommunicated for exposing and opposing smith's polygamy. The editors of the "Expositor", chased out of town and their press destroyed because they exposed smith's polygamy. Seemed Smith was more disgruntled than they were - even to the point of breaking the law.

And we havn't even begun to explore smith's mother-daughter fetish, let alone going after other men's wives.

284 posted on 08/01/2011 9:19:40 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Godzilla
Open your self to the truth - it is freeing John.

I am open to the truth. In my judgment, what you have presented is not the truth, but rather a hasty, undiscerning gathering of whatever you can find that can be seen as damaging to those who believe that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.

God knows your motives. I do not. But I cannot see how your sloppy attacks can do anybody any good. I think that you are wasting the days of your probation trying to tear down what you don't like, instead of laboring to build up what you love.

Open your self to the truth - it is freeing Godzilla.

285 posted on 08/01/2011 9:25:41 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: Godzilla
Two (2) statements by smith in his own handwriting acknowledging that he practiced and endorsed polygamy

If you are so sure about that, then you should be able to prove everything that you are here claiming. Where can those handwritten documents be viewed? Who were the handwriting experts that testified that that they could not have been forgeries? Were did you learn of their existence, if they actually exist?

286 posted on 08/01/2011 9:35:58 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian; ejonesie22
I am open to the truth. In my judgment, what you have presented is not the truth, but rather a hasty, undiscerning gathering of whatever you can find that can be seen as damaging to those who believe that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be.

Oh really John - or are you more interested in the church being 'true' than the truth? AFA the bom's claims, we've hardly scratched the surface on that point John, so far we've been discussing the false presentation of smith's so-called 'virtue' and martial fidelity shall we say. And I've hardly scratched the surface of the research and evidences that show to all with an unbiased mind that smith practiced polygamy (in addition to starting it).

You earlier stated my sources were 'tainted' because they were trying to justify their 'sin'. I've supplied sources that are free of that John - and included smith's own words as well.

God knows your motives. I do not. But I cannot see how your sloppy attacks can do anybody any good. I think that you are wasting the days of your probation trying to tear down what you don't like, instead of laboring to build up what you love.

My so-called 'attacks' have been nothing but the presentation of the truth. Calling them 'sloppy' is just a sad effort to deflect the sharpness of the truth they contain. Some may want to hide behind their walls of fictious reality - denying truth and holding to fantasy - and that fantasy will eventually end up being their destruction. Silence regarding Smith's own handwriting on the subject is very telling as to fact or fantasy.

287 posted on 08/01/2011 9:38:41 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: John McDonnell; Godzilla
it is freeing Godzilla.

Whew, just in the nick of time, too.


288 posted on 08/01/2011 9:58:04 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Godzilla

After the Mormons went to Utah withgout the Smith family Joery Smiths widow Emma Smith told her children that joey had never had any polygamous relationships...

She pretended for the rest of her life that her cheatin no good husband had been true to her...

When 2 of the Smith boys went to Utah years later Brigham Young realized they didnt know and sadistly got pleasure out of revealing the truth of Joeys serial adultery to them...

the truth destroyed one and messed up another...


289 posted on 08/01/2011 10:01:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: John McDonnell
If you are so sure about that, then you should be able to prove everything that you are here claiming. Where can those handwritten documents be viewed? Who were the handwriting experts that testified that that they could not have been forgeries? Were did you learn of their existence, if they actually exist?

I cited the sources along with the materials John should you desire to research further. Many are in the LDS archives, most are cited and copied in numerous other books by historians - lds and non-lds, both pro and counter mormonism John. To date - none have been found to be frauds or forgeries - so go seek out your own experts and challenge John, because it is the judgement of the historian community that the documents are valid and are widely accepted as being authentic.

290 posted on 08/01/2011 10:19:51 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: MarkBsnr

LOL, free at last! free at last!!!


291 posted on 08/01/2011 10:20:31 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: John McDonnell; Godzilla

Who were the handwriting experts that testified that that they could not have been forgeries?
__________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

John this could be said of the supposed “book of mormon”

Have any experts ever examined the original ???


292 posted on 08/01/2011 10:26:32 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
She pretended for the rest of her life that her cheatin no good husband had been true to her

That is your belief, not a statement of fact. The facts are that Emma Smith was an honest woman, who fully understood before the interview with Joseph Smith III that church leaders did not want any coverup whatsoever, that they wanted to know the truth even if it was ugly. Emma Smith answered the questions, and the net result was that the wife of Joseph Smith Jr stated that to her knowledge he had no other wives, spiritual or otherwise. Since the interview was conducted just before she died, it was published as "Last Testimony of Sister Emma" in Saints' Herald for October 1, 1879.

Soon after that publication, "the people in Utah became greatly agitated" (RLDS Church History 4:290). In the interview, Emma had testified that there was no revelation on polygamy prior to her husband's death. That meant that Brigham Young had fabricated it, and the Utah membership had been lied to.

293 posted on 08/01/2011 11:38:50 AM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: Godzilla
I cited the sources along with the materials John should you desire to research further.

No you didn't. You were extremely vague about what you claimed. Your whole approach has been to throw out bits and pieces without giving full sources for any of it, apparently hoping that the sheer volume of the bits and pieces will make it look like your position is solid, when it is not.

294 posted on 08/01/2011 12:01:10 PM PDT by John McDonnell
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To: reaganaut

placemarker


295 posted on 08/01/2011 12:04:02 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian; John McDonnell; Godzilla; Elsie; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39

Anybody have a “head in the sand” award we could give to John???

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He is certainly top candiate for “player of the week” award.


296 posted on 08/01/2011 12:07:10 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: John McDonnell; Colofornian; Tennessee Nana; ejonesie22; greyfoxx39
No you didn't. You were extremely vague about what you claimed. Your whole approach has been to throw out bits and pieces without giving full sources for any of it, apparently hoping that the sheer volume of the bits and pieces will make it look like your position is solid, when it is not.

Now John, you shouldn't make such claims that are so easily refuted. Here is one example of source citation:

("The Letter of the Prophet, Joseph Smith to Miss Nancy Rigdon," Joseph Smith Collection, LDS archives; History of The Church 5:134-36. Sidney Rigdon Biography, Richard S. Van Wagoner, Chapter 21) - three locations for the same statement of history.

If you go back, you'll see I've provided documentation for my other citations too. I'll assume on this point that you are ignorant of citation methodology John. Please don't make the same mistake twice.

297 posted on 08/01/2011 12:07:19 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: John McDonnell; Elsie; Godzilla; Colofornian

Elsie applied this to the present Mormon church. Since the Mormon church no longer practises blood atonement and polygamy, it is not continuing to do as their fathers did. Therefore, the application is false.

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No it isn’t, they (and CoC) still follow their idols, their false Christs.


298 posted on 08/01/2011 12:19:13 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Godzilla; John McDonnell

I cited the sources along with the materials John should you desire to research further. Many are in the LDS archives,

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I viewed a couple of them (along with many other primary sources) when I was doing my research in SLC. They exist and analysts have authenticated them.


299 posted on 08/01/2011 12:28:16 PM PDT by reaganaut ( "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut; John McDonnell

I had forgotten you’ve been allowed into the bowels of archeives at slc.


300 posted on 08/01/2011 12:36:22 PM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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