Skip to comments.The Shallow, Self-refuting, Incoherent, and Illogical Thinking of `Agnositc` ~ Vincent Bugliosi
Posted on 08/26/2011 9:18:56 PM PDT by SeanG200
[Listen to audio from Vincent Bugliosi]
✓ Atheism: The belief that there is no God. This is typically the conviction that there is no personal Creator of the universe, and no powerful, incorporeal, perfect being in heaven or anywhere else.
✓ Agnosticism: The state of not-knowing whether there is a God or not. The humble agnostic says that he doesnt know whether there is a God. The less humble agnostic says that you dont, either. The least humble agnostic thinks that we cant ever really know.
Tom Morris, Philosophy for Dummies (Foster City, CA: IDG Books, 1999), 238.
.To begin, pantheists claim that God is unknowable because it [God] is above and beyond human logic. In other words, we are told that we cannot intellectually comprehend God because he is beyond all understanding. However, this is nonsensical and self-defeating statement. Why? Because the very act of claiming that God is beyond logic is a logical statement about God. Also, to say that we cannot know or comprehend God, as do the agnostics, is to say that we know God. How? I will answer this with a response to agnostic claims by the associate professor of philosophy and government at the University of Texas at Austin:
(Excerpt) Read more at religiopoliticaltalk.com ...
I can’t tell from the excerpt if Vincent Bugliosi is a proponent or an opponent of agnosticism. Does it matter though? Does anybody who reads “Helter Skelter” (Bugliosi’s only claim to fame) really give a crap what his religious beliefs are?
I didn’t think so.
My pantheist friends which include Buddhists and Neopagans believe God is knowable because from their beliefs God is inherent in the blades of grass and within themselves. They do believe that some things are a mystery but that discovering the divinity is one of their functions in life. My Agnostic friends, who are not pantheists are the ones who claim that God is unknowable, which I think is a cop- out.
Ultimately, if you could know for certain that there is a God, then you have no need for faith. Faith in God requires that you cannot know for certain there is a God - you simply believe it must be true.
“Faith in God requires that you cannot know for certain there is a God - you simply believe it must be true.”
But then faith in God is really faith that the men who wrote the bible didn’t lie, isn’t it?
Tangentially, but even then not required. Faith, by definition, means belief without basis; faith is simply belief without cause. Belief in God does not mandate belief in the men who wrote the Bible, or even their accuracy. It simply is.
Looking for logic or reason or consistency or factual basis when dealing with faith is to look for spoons for worms or smartphones for chickens; they have nothing to do with faith, they are orthogonal to the question of faith and the beliefs carried.
The Christian God: God cannot be all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing at the same time. These are irreconcilable virtues in a world overflowing with the bloody crops of evil.
Darwin and evolution: Although they may be right, I can say that viscerally I fine it difficult to conceptualize the notion of bacteria evolving into Mozart.
Intelligent Design: How modern Christianity can hang its supposedly intellectual, logical, and reasoned hat on this theory is beyond me.
Prayer: In my opinion, two working hands can achieve far more that 100 million coupled ones.
Atheism: If the fulcrum of the debate is faith, since faith can be defined as the belief in something that cannot be proved by evidence, why isnt the belief that there is no God any less faith-based than the belief by theists that there is?
In his defense of agnosticism, Bugliosi contends, Because God and the meaning of life are impenetrable mysteries, agnosticism is the only intelligent, strong position one can take on the question of Gods existence. Doubt is divine in that it impels a search for the truth. It opens the door to knowledge. Faith puts a lock on the door.
How about I say that no one has stated any positive assertion regarding the existence of god convincingly to my satisfaction? That is a logical statement that requires no further proof since it is subjective and it makes no impact upon the beliefs others hold.
Faith, by definition, means belief without basis; faith is simply belief without cause. Belief in God does not mandate belief in the men who wrote the Bible, or even their accuracy. It simply is.”
Logically these two declarations of yours are inconsistent if not contradictory. I can accept the first while categorically rejecting the second. One can not know something with total certainty, but still have very good reasons for believing it. In fact there are very few things we know with absolute certainty, but nonetheless they have an extremely high probability of being true. I believe that my wife loves me and will be faithful to me throughout the rest of our lives. Do I know that with 100% certainty. No, but based on 31 years of marriage I know it to be highly probable bordering on certitude. My understanding of the Bible is that belief in the God of the Bible is highly probable. In fact David says that only a fool says there is no God. Faith in the Bible is a belief that God is good that he will provide for those who trust Him in this life and in the next. Simply this means that we believe that He has our best interests at heart (provided we are loyal to Him) and that He has the power to overcome evil in the long run. Although we can't know this for certain there is abundant evidence to believe that it is true, thus making it a rational belief. Faith and reason are not opposites.
Logic tell me that while no matter how many witness' testify to event, unless I was was a witness to event I can not be absolutely perfectly sure it is true...
But by reason we can accept something is it true to degrees of certainty
In the case on God as creator of all ...as no one was a witness other then God...
By logic I can not be beyond doubt ....but by reason and faith I can
I must accept or reject but by pure logic I can not prove
Paragraphs are your friends.
Faith in God may be simply trust in His goodness. You may have experienced His presence, His life-changing power within your soul. But day-to-day tests and challenges require you to demonstrate trust in Him under new circumstances.
Faith in God may not mean that you don't know for sure that He exists. Rather, it may be the challenge to exhibit trust, as a child who will jump from a tree branch when his daddy says, "Jump, I will catch you." Except that in the adult's walk of faith, he doesn't have the advantage that the child does of hearing an audible voice.
I moved from agnostic to believer years ago. It is not possible to quantify God, but whatever you believe, you must admit that He at least exists as a “concept.” Just as real as a circle, love, or the soul of a man.
It occurred to me last night that the Bible takes the existence of the God of Israel as a given. "In the beginning God created...". Genesis presents no arguments for God's existence. Likewise the faith in the Gospels is faith that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God and that He can and will save us from our sins. Once again God's existence is a given.
It is true that there are a few passages that touch on evidence for God's existence, but the vast majority of the Bible treats His existence as obvious.