Posted on 09/06/2011 8:15:09 AM PDT by Colofornian
Appears fizzled...
Good morning Elsie
yeah it does
but I have all those debate posts in the way
:)
Sorry it took so long, I havent had a whole lot of time to answer.
First, one thing for sure, it is not Jesus.
From Jews for Judaism:
"Christian theologians argue that the name "A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the ruler of peace" refers to Jesus, who they allege combined human and divine qualities. They mistakenly believe that such a name can only be applied to God Himself. Moreover, the Christians incorrectly translate the verbs in verse 5 in the future tense, instead of the past, as the Hebrew original reads. Thus, the Christians render verse 5 as: "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on his shoulders; and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."
While admitting that "wonderful counselor" and "ruler of peace" can be applied to a man, Christian theologians argue that the phrases "mighty God" and "everlasting Father" cannot be incorporated as part of a man's name. Thus, they contend that Isaiah teaches that the Messiah has to be not only a man, but God as well. That this entire reasoning is incorrect may be seen from the name Elihu, "My God is He," which refers to an ordinary human being (Job 32:1, 1 Samuel 1:l, 1 Chronicles 12:21, 26:7, 27:18). A similar Christian misunderstanding of Scripture may be seen in their claims revolving around the name Immanuel, "God is with us." The simple fact is that it is quite common in the Bible for human beings to be given names that have the purpose of declaring or reflecting a particular attribute of God, e.g., Eliab, Eliada, Elzaphan, Eliakim, Elisha, Eleazar, Tavel, Gedaliah.
The fact remains that Jesus did not literally or figuratively fulfill any of Isaiah's words. A wonderful counselor does not advise his followers that if they have faith they can be agents of destruction (Matthew 21:19-21; Mark 11:14, 20-23). A mighty God does not take orders from anyone (Luke2:51, Hebrews 5:8), for no one is greater than he is (Matthew 12:31-32; John 5:30, 14:28). Moreover, he does not ask or need to be saved by anyone (Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42), for he cannot die by any means (Matthew 27:50, Mark 15:37, Luke 23:46, John 19:30). He who is called the Son of God the Father (John 1:18, 3:16) cannot himself be called everlasting Father. One cannot play simultaneously the role of the son and the Father; it is an obvious self-contradiction. He who advocates family strife (Matthew 10:34-35, Luke 12:49-53) and killing enemies (Luke 19:27) cannot be called a ruler of peace.
Isaiah 9:5-6 – Historic Events or Messianic Prophecy?
Like Isaiah 7, it is a twisting of the scriptures into an unrecognizeable form to render Isaiah 7 and 9 to be about Jesus.
PM
bump
actually no...no matter how much time goes by, he isnt coming back...sorry.
He sure fooled a lot of people; didn’t He.
"He" didnt. He never even wrote one word of his own NT. (Strange for god in the flesh not to write his own books when the technology certainly existed, at least G-d wrote the ten commandments in stone)
Paul was the primary fooler of people. The rest also but to a somewhat lesser degree.
Ya just gotta feel sorry for all the folks that bought into the lies.
Them fake miracles and all must have really been something.
The fake miracles.
Who said they were fake? Pharohs necromancers performed
Miracles.
Can you show any scriptures in the OT that say messiah
Will be a great miracle worker? No He will not be known
For turning water into wine or walking on water
Good riddance...has been turned into an anti-Christian thread.
Because he was not god. Like Bar Kochba, Shabtai Tzvi and many others....a failed messiah.
These guys needed someone to write up a New Testement for them...
Well that's just it isnt it? The real messiah WON'T NEED a "new testament" to prove hes the one. That is why NOT ONCE do you ever see a scripture in the "OT" saying you must accept the messiah by faith OR ELSE. Why? Because it will be plainly obvious to all. It will require NO FAITH.
Just the fact you have a NT alone PROVES he is not the real messiah.
I'm sure Abraham will be SO glad to find this out!
Oh, so let me get this straight. You are comparing Abrams (not Abraham) belief in G-ds promise to the fact that it will take no faith to believe in the real messiah when he arrives.
What an amazing lack of undestanding of G-ds word. A belief in a promise (not a belief in G-d) vs the obviousness of the messiah. not even close.
I merely replied to your ‘no faith’ words.
I didn’t parse it into what KIND of faith or an OBJECT of faith.
Probably should have parsed it. The church has mischaracterized "the faith of Abraham" for 2000 years.
BTTT
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