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Mars Hill Pastor Mark Driscoll: Mormonism is a cult
Seattle Times ^ | Oct. 18, 2011 | Posted by Jim Brunner

Posted on 10/19/2011 5:25:28 AM PDT by Colofornian

With Mitt Romney campaigning...his Mormon religion is coming under increasing scrutiny.

SNIP

Now Mark Driscoll, pastor of the high-profile Seattle-based Mars Hill Church, has added his voice to the fray -- agreeing that Christians should consider Mormons as members of a "cult" and not "brothers and sisters in a common faith."

Writing on his website Tuesday, Driscoll goes on at length about the various definitions of a cult. He is careful to say that Mormonism has "outgrown" the popular culture and sociological definitions of a cult because of its enormous growth and general acceptance in the nation.

But, Driscoll writes, Mormonism "is most certainly a cult theologically speaking because it deviates substantially from historic Orthodox Christian belief about essential issues related to God, humanity, and salvation." And it's not just that it differs, he says, but also that "it claims Christianity while subtly subverting it in both practice and theology."

"Because it claims to be Christian, uses Christian language, but is antithetical Christianity, it must be labeled a cult theologically," Driscoll writes.

He concludes:

"So what do we make of all this? Simply said, by the theological definition, Mormonism is a cult."

"As the presidential race heats up and the prospect of a practicing Mormon as a viable Republican candidate becomes more a reality, there will be continued effort to bring Mormonism into the center of Christian orthodoxy..."

"...we cannot go so far as to call them brothers and sisters in a common faith. To do so is to not only confuse real Christians, but to also diminish the importance of lovingly speaking with Mormons about the errors of their belief in hopes of seeing them come to know the real God of the Bible and avoiding eternal damnation for worshiping a false god."

(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Other Christian; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: acts29; antiamericanism; antimormonjihad; bitterformermormon; cult; driscoll; geeihatemormons; hatethemormons; hemanmormonhater; inman; lds; marshill; mormoaner; mormon; mormophobia; mormophobic; religiousbigotry; resurgence; themormonquestion; whinemormonwhine; whinymormons; zealotry
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From the article: Mormonism "is most certainly a cult theologically speaking because it deviates substantially from historic Orthodox Christian belief about essential issues related to God, humanity, and salvation." And it's not just that it differs, he says, but also that "it claims Christianity while subtly subverting it in both practice and theology." "Because it claims to be Christian, uses Christian language, but is antithetical Christianity, it must be labeled a cult theologically," Driscoll writes.

I came across an article one time that listed cultish components...I then outlined aspects that makes Mormonism fit the bill.

These come from: When Does a Religion Become a Cult?


1. BEHAVIOR CONTROL, i.e., MONITORING of where you go and what you do.


2. INFORMATION CONTROL, such as DISCOURAGING MEMBERS FROM READING CRITICISM OF THE GROUP.


3. THOUGHT CONTROL, PLACING SHARP LIMITS ON DOCTRINAL QUESTIONING.


4. EMOTIONAL CONTROL—using humiliation or guilt.


5. Its doctrine need not be conventional—but it SHOULD BE KNOWABLE TO OUTSIDERS.


6. extreme leadership...Yet EVERY COERCIVE religious group harbors one telltale trait: UNTOWARD SECRECY.


7a. FINANCIAL CONTROL...the group's finances SHOULD BE REASONABLY TRANSPARENT.


7b. FINANCIAL CONTROL translates into levying ruinous dues or fees, or effectively hiring members and placing them on stipends or sales quotas.

I'll follow this up with why Mormonism aligns with these above.

1 posted on 10/19/2011 5:25:32 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
CRITERIA #1&2a

The first is behavior control...monitoring of where you go and what you do. The second is INFORMATION CONTROL, such as DISCOURAGING MEMBERS FROM READING CRITICISM OF THE GROUPS.

(Q&A)


QHow does the Mormon church engage monitoring tentacles & info control?


A Well, lookie here. The "lead" of the answer in a nutshell is one key temple recommend question.

Extended explanation:

Mormondom makes a HUGE deal of having access to the Mormon temple. Mormons carry a temple recommend in their wallets, and deem it a sacred document. It gives them access to the temple; without it, there's a huge debate if they could even make it into the highest degree of glory. See 25 posts from this very week where Lds debate the following question:
Source: Ldsfreedomforum.com: 'Is Current Temple Rec. Prerequisite to Get Celestial Glory?

Q Which temple recommend question allows Mormon leaders to "monitor" Mormons and engage in information control" that discourages "members from reading criticism of the group?"


A Temple recommend question #7:


Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

(Ya know, Mormons "affiliate" with FReepers -- and are FReepers themselves! Some Mormons "support" FR. Some "agree" with the worldviews of this site) Temple recommend Qs

From 1991-1995, this was Temple recommend question #6: Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?


Source Interview Questions for Recommends to Enter a Temple

Ah. So the Mormon church for five years was even trying to root out all "sympathizers" of people who don't agree with the Mormon church!!!

2 posted on 10/19/2011 5:26:46 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: Colofornian

Every “serious” pastor I’ve ever talked to on Mormonism says it’s a cult.


3 posted on 10/19/2011 5:27:35 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: greyfoxx39; All
CRITERIA #2b
The second is INFORMATION CONTROL, such as DISCOURAGING MEMBERS FROM READING CRITICISM OF THE GROUPS.

How else has the Mormon church wielded information control in a 'cultish' manner?

One Example: Lds Conference Talk October 1984-By Ronald E. Poelman-Mormon (OPEN)

Freeper poster Greyfoxx39 mentions: Through the miracle of modern technology, a conference talk focused on the importance of free agency turned into a conference talk focused on the importance of obedience and the fabric of time itself was altered such that the original conference talk turned out to have not ever existed and anyone who thought they had heard something else must have been listening to the influence of evil spirits. The Gospel and the Church By Ronald E. Poelman The First Quorum of the Seventy General Conference October, 1984

Go to the link -- and you can see how the Mormon church magically transforms transcripts of talks they make!!!

Another Example:

The Wasp (original newspaper report):
“Joseph Smith was arrested upon a requisition of Gov. Carlin,… in accordance with a process from Gov. Reynolds of Missouri, upon the affidavit of Ex-Governor Boggs,… the Municipal court issued a writ of habeas corpus according to the constitution of the State,… they left them in care of the Marshal, without the original writ by which they were arrested, and by which only they could be retained, and returned back to Gov. Carlin for further instruction, - and Messrs. Smith and Rockwell went about their business. As to Mr. Smith, we have yet to learn by what rule of right he was arrested to be transported to Missouri for a trial of the kind stated.” (August 13, 1842)

History of the Church (Joseph Smith, Jr. version):
“I was arrested… on a warrant issued by Governor Carlin, founded on a requisition from Governor Reynolds of Missouri, upon the affidavit of ex-Governor Boggs,… the municipal court issued a writ of habeas corpus according to the constitution of the state,… they left us in the care of the marshal, without the original writ by which we were arrested, and by which only we could be retained, and returned to Governor Carlin for further instructions, and myself and Rockwell went about our business. I have yet to learn by what rule of right I was arrested to be transported to Missouri for a trial of the kind stated.” (v. 5, pp. 86-87 – more direct quotes follow this passage)
Source: Plagiarism in Church History

4 posted on 10/19/2011 5:27:40 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: All
CRITERIA #3

The third is THOUGHT CONTROL, PLACING SHARP LIMITS ON DOCTRINAL QUESTIONING.

Here's a sampling from Mormon automaton thought from 1899-->2010!

Circa October 2010:
It's Oct. 24, 2010. Just weeks earlier, the Lds faithful had gathered for one of their two key 'y'all" come meetings in Salt Lake City, which are fed via satellite around the world to Mormons who can't make the trek to SLC. You would have thought that if an earth-shaking announcement needed to be made, it would have been made there. It wasn't. Perhaps too much media glare was on the conference. Therefore, more quietly, Lds leadership sent a world-wide circular letter to all church members. Here's two sources for that:
Source 1: Quit pestering us, church leaders tell membership in letter
Source 2 -- from a Mormon columnist, Robert Kirby: Wrestling with doctrine no match for me

From the first source:
On October 24th, the LDS First Presidency (led by Prophet Thomas S. Monson) wrote several letters that were to be read in Mormon Sunday services around the world. According to examiner.com, the first letter was “likely spurred by Boyd K. Packer’s most recent General Conference talk entitled ‘Cleansing the Inner Vessel.’ Church Headquarters has been receiving an increased amount of correspondence from its members about doctrinal issues. Because of this influx of correspondence, the First Presidency reminded and encouraged LDS church members to utilize their local church authorities – bishops, branch presidents, stake presidents, etc — before resorting to contacting Church Headquarters.” In other words, the Mormon laity was told to quit bothering their church leadership on issues related to doctrine. We can only wonder why the church is apparently receiving so many inquiries.

From the second source (Kirby): With only partial tongue in cheek, Kirby said: "According to the First Presidency’s letter, members with real doctrinal concerns were to seek the counsel of our local leaders — stake president, bishop, Scoutmaster, building custodian, etc."

Why? Well, per Kirby: "The letter...told/counseled rank-and-file Mormons to stop pestering church headquarters for clarification of church doctrine. Apparently some members get so stressed about the finer points of doctrine that they’ll fire off a letter asking for the final word. Church HQ can’t handle the demand...

There ya go. Just as the Wall Street Journal writer said: "placing sharp limits on doctrinal questioning" [Many an Lds historian has commented on this as well...do your own Google search with the words "faith promoting" in quotations...add the words "historian" and "Lds" to the search for better specific results]

Circa 2004:
”We discourage using sources that have not been approved by Church Correlation or the Brethren” (David B. Marsh, Church Curriculum Department, “Approved resources aid Book of Mormon study,” Church News Jan. 3 2004, p. 14)

Ah, that Lds hierarchical automaton bottleneck!

Circa 2000:
Mormon writer Orson Scott Card pens an article entitled Hey, Who are You Calling a Cult?
Ah, such irony! Card writes in the piece: What do they [cults] have in common?...AUTOMATONSs. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."...Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything.
How funny! Keep reading the following comments, and then tell us if "Mormons are...by doctrine, determined to make up our minds about everything?"

Circa 1999:
”…in the Lord’s Church there is no such thing as a ‘loyal opposition.’ One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed” (Lds “apostle” M. Russell Ballard, “Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers,” Ensign – Conference Ed., Nov. 1999 p 64)

[No disagreement tolerated. You cannot speak vs. a Mormon leader…you must, robot-like, be in 100% conformity!!! Elsewise you are deemed “disloyal”]

Circa 1984:
“No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed to those who direct the affairs of his earthly kingdom. No Latter-day Saint who is true and faithful in all things will ever pursue a course, or espouse a cause, or publish an article or book that weakens or destroys faith.” (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Conference Report, October 1984, p. 104)

Ah, such "fragile faith" -- IF EVERY single article or book content needs to go through a legalistic filter of how it's going to potentially effect the end-user -- the reader -- re: if it might be perceived as "weakening" a challenged faith!!!

Circa 1979:
"I would like to tell you something about the way the Church operates from headquarters. We often hear the Church referred to as a democracy, when in reality, instead of being a church where the body is governed by officers elected by the members, the Church is a THEOCRACY..." (First President Lds N. Eldon Tanner, "The Administration of the Church," Ensign (Conference edition) Nov. 1979 p. 42

Well, that makes ya wonder who would occasionally call ultimate shots if a Mormon was in the White House, doesn't it?

Circa 1978-1979:
“Recently, at the Churchwide fireside meeting held for the women of the Church, Young Women President Elaine Cannon made the following statement: ‘When the Prophet speaks…the debate is over (Ensign, Nov.1978, p. 108). I was impressed by that simple statement, which carries such deep spiritual meaning for all of us. Wherever I go, my message to the people is: Follow the Prophet” {First President N. Eldon Tanner, “The Debate is Over,” Ensign, August 1979 p. 2)

For the true Christian, wherever we go, we say, “Follow the Lord Jesus Christ as a disciple of Him” -- not a mere Salt-Lake City-based man [who MUST reside in the Salt Lake City area!]. Our message is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, how He came to earth as an ever-living God-man – the ONLY SON of God who bodes no pre-existent brother rivals, died for our personal sins, and was raised to the same glory He shared with the Father before all was (John 17:5).

Circa 1963:
"'The holy Priesthood is a system of laws and government that is pure and holy;...' (JD7:202) - 'a perfect law of THEOCRACY.' (Joseph Smith's Teachings, p. 322)" (As cited by William J. Critchlow, Jr. Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Reports October 1963, p. 28)

Circa 1960, citing an earlier Lds time as well:
"President Heber J. Grant once said, 'Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it…” (quoted by First President Marion G. Romney, Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78).

Circa 1945: "He [Lucifer] wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against the leaders and do 'their own thinking.' He specializes in suggesting that our leaders are in error while he plays the blinding rays of apostasy in the eyes of those whom he beguiles. What cunning! And to think that some of our members are deceived by this trickery...WHEN OUR LEADERS SPEAK, THE THINKING HAS BEEN DONE. (Spoken @ a convention of Lds teachers: Ward Teachers Message, Improvement Era, June 1945 p. 354)

Circa 1900: "We sustain President Lorenzo Snow as the mouthpiece of God. Therefore, when he has anything to say to us as the mind and will of the Lord, it is just as binding upon us as if God spake personally to us (Abraham O. Woodruff, Conference Reports, April 1899 p. 7)

[Ah, forced feeding like little children]

5 posted on 10/19/2011 5:28:29 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: All
CRITERIA #4:

4. The fourth is EMOTIONAL CONTROL—using humiliation or guilt.

Read the dynamics of what went on with this Mormon woman...then you decide:
My church resignation

6 posted on 10/19/2011 5:29:08 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: Colofornian

Also, this “Is Mormonism a cult?” debate is one of the very, VERY positive things to fall out from a Romney presidential bid. People are forced to actually think about it. And a portion of them were considering mormonism and now will look elsewhere for God. That is a Good Thing.


7 posted on 10/19/2011 5:29:08 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: All; delacoert
CRITERIA #5

Its doctrine need not be conventional—but it SHOULD BE KNOWABLE TO OUTSIDERS.Absent those qualities, [Including lack of financial transparency as mentioned in previous post] an unorthodox religion can descend into something darker.

Well, did you know Mormonism claims...
...Never-married people can never live with Heavenly Father forever?
...That all people are as eternal as their god is -- that all started as an "intelligence" somewhere -- with no beginning? (see D&C 93:29,33)
...But then they ALSO teach each of us had a sort of spirit-babe beginning born to a goddess mom (or goddess harem) on Kolob?
...Brigham Young taught there are many earths and each earth has its redeemer (Jesus Christ cloned?)?
...All the worship in the universe doesn't go to a single God? (It's split up according to however many gods there are)
...The way you can discern a false spirit is by shaking their hand? (D&C 129)
...That the dead have regularly visited Mormons in Mormon temples?
...And that Mormons emphasize the dead visiting Mormons in Sunday School lessons, BYU genealogy courses, and even packet handouts-for-members prior to temple openings?
...It doesn't matter what kind of life you led on earth -- ALL of us, per Mormonism, are going to same "Spirit World" (initially) upon death?
...That a Mormon widow in good standing with the church, if she had more than one husband, can be sealed eternally to each and every husband she had on earth? (Thereby, if Mormons are right, becoming a polyanderer post-death...imagine all those men sleeping with the same woman!!!)
...That Joseph Smith's "prophet"-nephew taught that the way they received new wives in a late 19th-century polygamous marriage was for both man AND wife to go into the temple to receive another wife -- and that the "worthiness" of the already-existing wife was of import as well as the man!
...That the Mormon jesus will re-institute polygamy when he returns, per a Mormon "apostle"?

And if Mormonism wanted to make itself "knowable to outsiders," why are MANY key doctrines NOT to be found in the book they FIRST distribute to "contacts" they're trying to proselytize?

The Book of Mormon has ZILCHO content/teachings about all the "later" developments of Joseph Smith...such as...
* God is a lower-level god who god assigned the "god job" for the Kolob-Earth district
* He was a man who earned his way to godhood; therefore, you can, too
* Temples are for baptizing dead people -- which Mormons hear from time-to-time in those temples (necro-immersing & necromancy)
* Any kind of "pre-existence"
* 3 degrees of glory
* Hell isn't eternal -- damnation just means "damned up"
* Marriage & families are for eternity [imagine the Book of Mormon missing out on that one]
* Sealings & endowments & temple recommends & temple ritual language
* A mom-god or 2 or 3 or a harem of them

Anyway, no wonder there's "misunderstandings" of what Mormonism is! Here they do a bait-and-switch, asking people to pray about stuff that doesn't even record many of their primary teachings!!! It's downright deceptive.

Delacoert posted this: 21 facts everyone should know about Mormon teaching [Mormonism/Anti-Christian]

Let's review a sampling from that list...and as you read them, ask yourself: Are these readily "knowable to outsiders"? Or are they covered up close to the Mormon HQ's chest -- like the cult this author hints it to be!
2. Mormon goddesses will spend eternity in full submission to their god-husband.
3. Mormon's teach that women will give birth “forever and ever” to spirit-babies.
4. Mormon's teach men can have multiple wives in heaven—eternal polygamy. They intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be "Heavenly Father" over their own planet!
6. American Indians are descendants of the wicked Lamanites, who were Israelites that God cursed with dark skin.
9. Mormons teach that they need 4 secret handshakes to get into the Celestial heaven.
10. Joseph Smith revealed that the actual Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, Missouri.
21. Mormons also teach that there is no salvation without Joseph Smith. They teach that Joseph Smith holds the keys to the Kingdom of God. They teach that Jesus' death on the cross only partially saves the believer. They also teach that people will stand before God, Jesus and Joseph Smith on Judgement Day.

8 posted on 10/19/2011 5:30:58 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: All
CRITERIA #6

Yet EVERY COERCIVE religious group harbors one telltale trait: UNTOWARD SECRECY.

Well, did you know how most, if not all of what was posted in the previous post, is secreted away by Mormon leaders & many grassroots Mormons?

Hence, we see Web headlines like: Mormonism's Real Secret Doctrine

Of course, when you have these kind of bizarre beliefs as posted in the previous post, mum's the word.
Secret, secret, secret
Fulness of the gospel NOT in the Book of Mormon. Secret to prospects - they'd look in vain for the primary Mormon teachings to be taught there.
Original "old plates" Joseph supposedly found. Secreted away.
The founder, Joseph not telling wife Emma about women he had affairs with (Fanny & others) 1831 & beyond. Secret.
Mormons not putting the polygamy doctrine in writing until the 1850s. Secret.
Bloody victims' clothes & orphans from Mountain Meadows Massacre, 1857. Secret for two years.
Mountain Meadows Massacre culprits. Conspired amongst each other to never tell. Secret.
Mormonism openly false 19th century teachings like Adam-is-god and blood atonement. Unacknowledged as former teachings. They wish these were a secret.
Mormon polygamists hiding out from the feds in 1880s. Secret hideaways.
Lds Plural marriages 1890-1910. Secret.

Still today:
Lds temple ceremonies. Secret.
Lds weddings in temples. Secret.
Secret underwear power. Very secret.
Mormons believe thousands of deceased Mormons practicing polygamy in another realm. "Open" Secret.
History not "faith promoting" to Lds church and former leaders. Tendency to tuck away. Secreted away.
fLDS families -- the "living daguerreotype" of what 19th century Mainstream Mormon families were often like -- tucked away in out-of-the-way communities. Treated like the crazy aunt to lock away in the basement closet.

No wonder a BYU history prof wrote a book, "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View." "Magic" is a sub-category of the occult. And what does the word "occult" mean? (Yup, Latin for "hidden" -- as in secret).

9 posted on 10/19/2011 5:32:15 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: All
CRITERIA #7a:

...the group's finances SHOULD BE REASONABLY TRANSPARENT.

Lds Inc hides its BILLIONS. (No transparency at all!)

"In 1999, authors Richard and Joan Ostling estimated the church's assets at nearly $30 billion in Mormon America: The Power and the Promise. They expanded on research by John Heineman and Anson Shupe, authors of "The Mormon Corporate Empire: The Eye-Opening Report on the Church and Its Political and Financial Agenda," published in 1985."
Source: http://www.skeptictank.org/gen4/gen02306.htm

10 posted on 10/19/2011 5:33:38 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: All
CRITERIA #7b:

FINANCIAL CONTROL translates into levying ruinous dues or fees...

A Key way Mormons impose financial control is through coercive calls to tithing. Now Mormons aren't the only ones to mention tithing. So what's distinctive about Lds in this regard? First of all, I'm not saying that Lds are the only ones to manipulate giving from their members -- and, of course, it can range from subtleties to strong "thou shalts" to more than that. But let's review how Mormons are distinctive in this area -- with specific examples, shall we?

First of all, how do Mormon "prophets" define the "Law of tithing" -- otherwise known as the "Law of Consecration"?

Well, they're rather bold in calling it, in effect, their own Internal Revenue Service:

Lds definition of 'tithing': “The law of tithing is the law of revenue for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
Source: Teachings of the President of the Church: Joseph F. Smith
Obedience to the Law of Tithing

Secondly, if you look at Lds.org like I did -- every single entry they have for carrying out their various add-on "Laws" -- guess what two add-on "laws" get the most mentions by Lds, Inc?

It's near a tie:
(1) The Law of Tithing
(2) The Law of Chastity

That's interesting, too...'cause you would think that based upon what Joseph Smith said, the Law of Baptizing dead people would be #1. But it's not stressed more than the above (& doesn't rank above many other Mormon "laws").

Joseph Smith: “The GREATEST RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS WORLD that God has placed upon us is to seek after our dead.” (Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 356)

Mormons are you obeying this? Are you doing three-year missions to the dead to outdo your two- year missions to the living?

If I was a gambler, I could probably wage a million $ that not a single Mormon could name EVERY law mentioned by Lds general authorities on Lds.org. [What a crying shame, 'cause even Joseph Smith said: “We cannot keep all the commandments without first knowing them, and we cannot expect to know all, or more than we now know unless we comply with or keep those we have already received.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 256.)]

And Mormons are shooting for the highest degree by way of perfect obedience??????

For the Christian, do we follow a "law" of tithing?

No. Giving is an inside-out thing, done from the heart, encouraged by God as part of being godly.

Mormons? They make it an outside-in lock-up, imposed upon from without -- or you're out (of the temple, that is). No chance for special "callings" in the church; don't get to see your son or daughter married in the temple. No "forever family." No living with Heavenly Father forever. You could pay 9.99% of your income, and still be disqualified from all the above...because you broke their man-made "law."

And let's look thirdly at First President of the Mormon church, Marion G. Romney, as Romney cites Brigham Young, who in turn was citing another Mormon general First President (Grant)...anyway, all three are in effect, preaching the "Mormon Prosperity 'gospel'":

President Grant at that time was a young apostle, and in his conference talk he said: “I wish to bear my testimony to the Latter-day Saints that all of us who will obey the commandments of God will be prospered in the land. Sacrifice doth bring forth the blessings of heaven. I bear my testimony to the truth of what Brother Lund has said today, that IFthe people will pay their tithes and offerings, they will not only be blessed in their material affairs, but they will be abundantly blessed with increased outpouring of the Spirit of the Lord. …“I bear witness to you, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, that MATERIAL and spiritual prosperity is predicated upon the fulfillment of the duties and responsibilities that rest upon us as Latter-day Saints. [Then this.] I have rejoiced exceedingly that the debts which the people owe to the Lord in tithing have been forgiven by the Prophet of God. But I want to say to those who are able to pay those debts, it will be a great deal better for them if they will do so, notwithstanding, they have been forgiven.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1899; italics added.)
Source: The Blessings of an Honest Tithe

Lds leader Heber J. Grant: Prosperity comes to those who observe the law of tithing. When I say prosperity I am not thinking of it in terms of dollars and cents alone, although as a rule the Latter-day Saints who are the best tithe payers are the most prosperous men, financially. (Gospel Standards, p. 58.)

Btw in the same Marion G. Romney message above, he said: From this scripture it is apparent that tithing is a debt which everyone owes to the Lord for his use of the things that the Lord has made and given to him to use. It is a debt just as literally as the grocery bill, or a light bill...

So, Mormon leaders manipulate their flock both through the "prosperity" 'gospel' AND they treat it as a bill to be paid!

Finally, let's hit a few Joseph Smith's revelations:
* “Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion," (D&C 119:1) [Ah, Mormon socialism)
* ‘Verily, it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall NOT BE BURNED at His coming. For after today cometh the burning,’ that is, at the coming of the Son of Man, ‘for verily I say, tomorrow’ – that is, at the Lord’s coming – ‘all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts.” (D&C 64:23, 24.)

(Nothin' like a lil' threat of hellfire, eh?)

“The law of tithing, as embodied in the revelations referred to, [in Sec. 119], is an immutable decree of Jehovah to His people, and admits of no evasion by those who would enjoy the blessings of the faithful on the land of Zion, or be classed among the righteous, and avoid the burning at the coming of our Lord.” (Principles of the Gospel, pp. 174-177.)

11 posted on 10/19/2011 5:35:06 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: Colofornian
BIGGER FONT....AND USE CAPS!!!! UNLEASH THE FURY!!!!!!!!!!!!
12 posted on 10/19/2011 5:35:31 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (Public employee unions are the barbarian hordes of our time.)
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To: Colofornian

Mormonism is small potatoes compared to Islam. If we must rail against something, lets rail against the “cult” that intend to enslave or slaughter us all.

While I disagree with some of the tenets of the LDS, the people that I have known that attend have been nothing but cordial, welcoming and genial with me. The elders are a wholesome if persistent bunch.

I’ll take a temple any day over a mosque


13 posted on 10/19/2011 5:48:03 AM PDT by Molon Labbie ("It's free, swipe your EBT!")
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To: Molon Labbie
I don't think anyone is giving us a choice of the LDS over Islam; there is no Muslim running in the GOP.

Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?

14 posted on 10/19/2011 5:53:13 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: Siena Dreaming
Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would call Jeremiah Wright's brand of Christianity very unorthodox, and, yes, it is hurting us.

15 posted on 10/19/2011 5:55:59 AM PDT by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: Molon Labbie

If you want to rail against Islam then go ahead. Others have been called to warn about the false teachings of Mormonism. You seemed focused on getting along with your neighbors, when others are correctly concerned about the spiritual welfare of their Mormon neighbors.


16 posted on 10/19/2011 6:09:03 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: wintertime
Liberation theology does indeed cause many problems, but their creed still doesn't mess with the deity of Christ.

To have the leader of the free world believe something antithetical to Christianity may very well cause lots of unforeseen problems.

17 posted on 10/19/2011 6:14:01 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: Colofornian

The Mormons will be marching with pitchforks against him come nigfhtfall...


18 posted on 10/19/2011 6:22:05 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Molon Labbie
If we must rail against something, lets rail against the “cult” that intend to enslave or slaughter us all.

CHOICE offers up more human sacrifice than the others combined.

19 posted on 10/19/2011 6:33:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Molon Labbie
I’ll take a temple any day over a mosque

A selective bigot: I like that in a person.

20 posted on 10/19/2011 6:34:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Siena Dreaming
Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?

I think Carter was Baptist.

21 posted on 10/19/2011 6:35:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Siena Dreaming
Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?

I assume you are thinking of Romney?

He is not a 'non-Orthodox Christian', or even an Orthodox one. He's no kind of Christian at all; but a MORMON.

22 posted on 10/19/2011 6:37:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

I had a thought whil;e I was reading this post...

Just as Barry has played around with homosexual “rights” and attempted to give a deciant sex act acceptance in the main stream by pushing it on to us...

Whats to stop a president Romney from doing the same with the deviant sex polygamy ???

Barry makes policy from the Oval Office ignoring Congress...

Romney has an even bigger ego and he might not hesitant to change the law of the land with a stroke of his pen and make polygamy legal...

Probably starting off like Barry did with the military...

polygamists will be allowed to live in base housing with all their wives and children...

and get BASZ for them all so he can feed them...

Plus other bennies...

and of course the free base clinics and Champus for all...

And hey, after that we might find ourselves with our first polygamist president...

With First Lady One, First Lady Two etc

or would that be the First First Lady, the Second First Lady...


23 posted on 10/19/2011 6:37:42 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana
...come nightfall.

That's why they need the torches; too...

24 posted on 10/19/2011 6:39:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Molon Labbie

I’ll take a temple any day over a mosque
__________________________________________

No you wont...

While you will probably be allowed in the mosque since you are a man,,,

You definitely wouldnt get passed the door in a mormon temple...

Youre not a mormon...

youre an apostate, a whore of babylon, etc to Mormons...

and only about 25% of members of Mormonism are allowed into the mormon temples...

Mormon temples...theyre not for everyone...


25 posted on 10/19/2011 6:44:36 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Molon Labbie
I’ll take a temple any day over a mosque

So, are you saying that you will take a less violent religion over a more violent religion?

Being moral will not get you to Jesus!
26 posted on 10/19/2011 6:54:44 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: Tennessee Nana
and only about 25% of members of Mormonism are allowed into the mormon temples...


Even less that that if you are a black Mormon
27 posted on 10/19/2011 7:04:04 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: Colofornian

One other “attribute” of a cult which we learned/discussed in Seminary is that cults base beliefs on “extra-Biblical” writings or teachings. “Book Of Mormon” is most definitely “extra-Biblical”.


28 posted on 10/19/2011 7:12:05 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: Siena Dreaming
Liberation Theology breaks the First Commandment. It puts the state before God. It bows down to and worships the golden calf of Marxism rather than God.

Big problem there....And, there is good reason to believe that Obama is not a Christian. Would a Christian **bow** to a Muslim Saudi Arabian king? ( I don't think so.)

29 posted on 10/19/2011 7:12:46 AM PDT by wintertime (I am a Constitutional Restorationist!!! Yes!)
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To: Tennessee Nana

I don’t know where you’re coming from but, I’m no Mormon and have been welcomed in several temples.


30 posted on 10/19/2011 7:18:39 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (Public employee unions are the barbarian hordes of our time.)
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To: Colofornian

And Mormonism fits all of these.

Good thread and now I’m back on the road. Take care, Colo.


31 posted on 10/19/2011 7:20:19 AM PDT by reaganaut (Romney IS Obama - just 'white and delightsome' 2 Nephi 30:6)
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To: Psycho_Bunny

I’m no Mormon and have been welcomed in several temples.

- - - -
That is NO possible, only worthy members are allowed in temples unless you are talking about open hoses (before they are finished) or mean local ward houses which are NOT the same as LDS temples.

Most Mormons are not allowed in Mormon temples.


32 posted on 10/19/2011 7:22:55 AM PDT by reaganaut (Romney IS Obama - just 'white and delightsome' 2 Nephi 30:6)
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To: reaganaut; Psycho_Bunny

Pay to play perhaps? j/k

What Reaganaut says is correct. The only time a non-worthy anybody is allowed into a temple is during an open house, prior to its “dedication”. Meeting houses is more likely.

Other than that, forget it. Even the vast majority of mormons are denied entry to the temples because they haven’t worked at the temple worthiness checklist hard enough.

Which, according to mormon doctrine, if you don’t get through the temple, you can’t attain all of the “highest blessings” by engaging in non-biblical rituals in order to earn the celestial kingdom, where the mormon god dwells.


33 posted on 10/19/2011 7:31:20 AM PDT by SZonian (July 27, 2010. Life begins anew.)
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To: Turtlepower
“...others are correctly concerned about the spiritual welfare of their Mormon neighbors...”

What should the “others” do about their concerns for their neighbors spiritual welfare?

34 posted on 10/19/2011 7:36:39 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter

Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ and lovingly show their errors of false teachings, like Mormonism.


35 posted on 10/19/2011 7:56:11 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Turtlepower
And if they really think you are wrong and don't want to listen to you?
36 posted on 10/19/2011 8:04:39 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: Colofornian; P-Marlowe; wmfights; Quix; Buggman

Actually, I do not think Mormonism is a Christian cult. That’s because I don’t think it is part of historic Christianity. It is an entirely new religion with its own revelation, its own holy book, and its own prophet.

If Mormonism, with its new definition of Jesus Christ, is a Christian cult, then so is Islam with its new definition of Jesus Christ.

A Christian cult would be something like the “children of god” with David Berg or “the people’s temple” with Jim Jones. They had their leader/prophet, their own interpretations, but they also used historic Christian writings and twisted Christian doctrine.


37 posted on 10/19/2011 8:09:50 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True Supporters of our Troops PRAY for their VICTORY!)
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To: starlifter

Is that a serious question????

All one can do is pray, ask God to open the heart of an unbeliever, and share The Truth will that person. It’s up to each person to accept the Gospel.


38 posted on 10/19/2011 8:19:41 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Siena Dreaming
Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?

Question already answered with 0bama

39 posted on 10/19/2011 8:20:18 AM PDT by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: Siena Dreaming

I don’t think you have looked at the teaching as described above. These guys are not methodists, and with all due respect, orthodox Jews are closer to Christianity than Mormons are. If words mean anything. To be sure, they are good people. But so are most atheists.

And if you are a teacher, don’t cross a Mormon school board.


40 posted on 10/19/2011 8:32:43 AM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Turtlepower
Points one and two are valid. Point three, “sharing” is debatable depending on context.

Nevertheless, I shall pray that your heart be opened and that you return to One True Church.

41 posted on 10/19/2011 8:34:02 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter

I never left the One True Church. Where do you get off making such assumptions?

Why is sharing the Truth debatable? When would sharing the Truth of Jesus Christ ever be improper?


42 posted on 10/19/2011 8:43:49 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: Colofornian

Great post!


43 posted on 10/19/2011 8:43:58 AM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Elsie
A selective bigot: I like that in a person.

LMAO!

44 posted on 10/19/2011 8:49:03 AM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Turtlepower
Sorry, did not realize you were a Catholic. Apologies.

Sharing the Truth would be debatable, for example, if the context was you stood over your neighbors fence with a bullhorn.

45 posted on 10/19/2011 8:52:10 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: starlifter

Your assumption that the Catholic church is the One True Church is false and is off-target from this thread.

I’ve never known anyone to stand over their neighbor’s fence and use their bullhorn, so your extreme example seems pointless. I already stated in post 35 to point out false teachings in a loving manner, so it seems you have decided to start an arguement with me for no reason. Congrats!


46 posted on 10/19/2011 9:02:21 AM PDT by Turtlepower
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To: starlifter
And if they really think you are wrong and don't want to listen to you?

You mean like the people whose property is trespassed on by the 52,000 mormon missionaries out there calling Christian faiths bogus?

Why they can just ignore our threads and posts altogether.

You mormons plan to "flood the earth with the BOM" yet you whine about a handful of Christians posting on one internet forum.

Crybabies! Here's your "Victim Card"..similar to a race card....oh wait....

Photobucket

47 posted on 10/19/2011 9:09:26 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Mittbots on FR swarm just like the nasty crazy, hairy ants.)
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To: Turtlepower; Molon Labbie
Mormonism is small potatoes compared to Islam. If we must rail against something, lets rail against the “cult” that intend to enslave or slaughter us all. [Molon Labbie]

If you want to rail against Islam then go ahead. Others have been called to warn about the false teachings of Mormonism. You seemed focused on getting along with your neighbors, when others are correctly concerned about the spiritual welfare of their Mormon neighbors. [Turtlepower]

Well, thankfully, the "Silent Generation" taught us a lot of lessons.

One of them was how to fight vs. multiple enemies on multiple fronts. IOW, they knew how to multi-task -- unlike so many today.

In one sense, neither Mormon nor Muslim is our "enemy." The apostle Paul says we fight not vs. flesh & blood (Ephesians 6). There is a spiritual "general" behind these false religions whom do we fight against.

In that sense, we don't oppose the pawns being manipulated by him. They are merely his victims. But make no mistake. If we do not oppose the "isms" he produces, we have no claim to the truth nor are we good stewards of it.

(Nor should you or anybody else who fails who lift their voice "complain" if a Mormon guy converts your daughter, and you're locked out of viewing their wedding because you're not a Mormon with a hierarchy-issued temple recommend)

48 posted on 10/19/2011 9:16:26 AM PDT by Colofornian (Anyone who can be duped by Joseph Smith can be duped by anyone.)
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To: Siena Dreaming
Question is...would it hurt the US to elect the first non-Orthodox Christian ever to the Oval Office?

You're 200 years too late for that. Thomas Jefferson was never any thing like an "orthodox Christian". Whether he was a Christian at all is at best debatable.

49 posted on 10/19/2011 10:20:51 AM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
The deists did have their issues with Christ, but for the most part they continued to attend orthodox churches.

As far as I know, Jefferson retained his membership in the Church of England.

50 posted on 10/19/2011 10:43:35 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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