Posted on 10/23/2011 4:30:28 PM PDT by freejohn
I hope that it's okay to post this in the Religion forum!?
I have been thinking about this for quite some time now and have come to my own conclusion and that is .. GOD HAS TO EXIST and not only does he exist .. He is the main argument Against the now popular 'Multi-verse' scenario!
Scientists from many different areas are pondering an infinite number of universes to explain our existence.
They talk about 'string theories' and 'infinite universes' where anything and everything can and does exist!
An example may be that in one universe, I am alive but in another I never was.
In one universe, I am a doctor while in others I may be a lawyer or an Indian Chief while in THIS one .. I'm just another 'smuck'! *)
IF the multi-verse theory were correct then GOD would HAVE to exist simply because 'Scientists' say ALL things MUST take place in 'Infinite Universes'!
Now .. Wouldn't it make sense that if GOD were to exist in even one of these universes then NONE of the rest of those universes could or would exist!?
GOD is a GOD of ORDER and Not a GOD of DISORDER so-o-o .. HOW could such a chaotic universe or in this case Chaotic Universes exist!?
I believe that Science has backed itself into a hole on this one!
(or maybe just created another paradox?)
What do you think?
If you were able to get beyond the multi-use of the word 'exist' in my ramblings .. I would Really like you Scientific and Religious thinkers input on this! 8)
Just sayin'.
We can learn only so much in a lifetime but we can believe anything we want to.
Leibnez asks, "If God does not exist, why is there anything at all?"
I think you have identified the purpose of such theory... to discredit the existence of God.
Just like evolution and time travel.... it’s all linked together.
It is fed to us on a daily basis NOT just through science, but through entertainment as well in the form of science fiction.
Parallel universes, time travel, and evolution has been the core plot basis for Star Trek and so many others like it...
The logic of such science sounds much more palpable to our brains because it is so far beyond us, and special effects brings it into our visual reality... but for anyone who believes in God, it becomes utter nonsense for the very reasons you stated... It would all make God out to be someone who IS NOT INVOLVED in His creation.
Leibnez asks, "If God does not exist, why is there anything at all?"
I wouldn’t count parallel universes and time travel out quite yet.
BUT .. He didn’t say a thing about many Universes!
There is but one universe...science tells us. There is no evidence for multiple universes...none. Look at the Borde-Guth-Vilkin explaination for disposing of such silly notions. As Alamo girl often tells us, God is I AM, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, ETERNAL GOD. Cosmology, if you remain honest, strenghtens the Christian faith.
A multi-universe doesn’t eliminate God.
There’s no reason why God cannot have many universes on the go for various reasons and that the physics established by God may have required a multi-universe, just as gravity was required so we don’t float away in space.
Time travel .. In which direction?
Interesting thought: those of us who believe in Him, believe he is all-powerful and everywhere at once, all the time. Therefore, it shouldn’t be out of line to assume that if there were parallel universes, other dimensions, etc., then He should be present there too, perhaps taking another form such as that of Aslan in the Chronicles of Narnia....
So .. Would GOD have all of these universes lined up in neat little rows?
Kind of like a Monk (The Actor) GOD would do? 8)
The quantum theory describes so-called quantum foam - a sporadic appearance of particles out of nothing and their immediate return back to that nothing. It may be seen as somewhat related to this problem. A particle may appear, but we can only talk about probabilities of it appearing.
IF the multi-verse theory were correct then GOD would HAVE to exist simply because 'Scientists' say ALL things MUST take place in 'Infinite Universes'!
If that were to be true then all Universes would be identical. The whole trick is that the Multiverse represents a complete set of all possibilities. This means that in exactly 50% of them God does not exist (because this is a binary event.)
Imagine a boiling kettle. There are bubbles of steam rising up. There could be no bubbles, or one, or many. Each may call itself a Universe; together they'd be a Multiverse. First of all, what God has to do with any of these bubbles? Can inhabitants of one bubble conclude that God exists or that he does not? If God exists inside of the bubble then he is not in control of other bubbles, which undermines certain postulates. If God exists outside of the bubble (say, he is standing by the fire and watching the kettle boil) then the relation between God and any individual bubble - let alone an individual inside that bubble - is slim to none, even though God did in fact cause all these bubbles to form.
GOD is a GOD of ORDER and Not a GOD of DISORDER
How do you know that? What is order to you and to God? Are they the same? Water molecules are always in random motion; however the coffee in my cup is perfectly at rest.
I believe that Science has backed itself into a hole on this one!
The Science said nothing definite on this subject - unless you call SciFi writers scientists. But they are not scientists, they are entertainers. Only philosophers can be said to think about these matters - and they haven't proven anything in this department as far as I know.
If you can think of an experiment where inhabitants of a bubble can prove that God stands in front of the range and is making himself a cup of tea - or that he does not exist like that - then please speak up :-)
We usually look at it in reverse: We ask how God can make something from nothing. But God is actually the ONLY something. Our world is actually NOTHING from SOMETHING! How do WE exist at all?
HEY Starlifter!!!
Yes, your logic is valid. And I would like to echo the congratulations of others on this thread. Well done.
“IF the multi-verse theory were correct then GOD would HAVE to exist simply because ‘Scientists’ say ALL things MUST take place in ‘Infinite Universes’!”
And yes, therefore the multi-universe theory disproves itself. This seems to be a general trend with leftist “scholarly” ideas that are anti-God. Including one from David Hume, who is supposed to be a “great” thinker, as explained in the book “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist.”
Well, when you take sides against God the inevitable result is you outthink yourself.
I would count out time travel, with absolute certainty.
Norman Geistler Turek wrote, “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be An Atheist”. It is an excellent starting point.
Why?
Holy writ states that we are in God. How that works out physically im not sure but I know that the answer will reflect that truth.
Wow .. You've gone way beyond my pay grade on this one.
My GOD would Have to exist in ALL universes simply because he is or was the creator.
I can only go on what the Bible has to say and that is .. God is the beginning and the end of ALL things .. whether in the Heavens or upon the Earth!?.
You want to argue semantics?
Thank You reasonisfaith!
Your posting name, Really Does suit you! 8)
I believe you’re superimposing our astonishingly limited understanding of existence on Gods ability to see order in infinite chaos.
In other words, our minds couldn’t track all the atoms in one drop of water, whereas an infinitely knowing God would see order in all the atoms of every drop of water on Earth.
One day a physics student who is studyimg solar activity asks
THE QUESTION.
Stars are lossing their fuel and the universe is shutting down one star at a time. The student asks. "Can entropy be reversed?
Multivac transports humanity to a parallel universes as the last of the suns in our universe blinks out. Multivac ponders this question for the longest time and then finally he peeked back into this universe and says
LET THERE BE LIGHT!
To the past, as shown by both the General and Special Theories of Relativity.
In a multi-universe scenario, the different universes could be all around you and you wouldn’t know it, because our 3-D brains cannot process 4-D images or anything.
Read one of Michio Kaku books on the subject, he would explain it in a way that’s easy for an average person to grasp.
I would count on time travel with some certainty. How is God able to prophesy and predict the future not just hundreds of years but millennium with accuracy? God is not boxed in by time or space or science, He is the Author of it. Time will have no meaning in Heaven once the judgement is executed.
Must I Google the word? LOL
Just kidding my friend.
I would say that "On my street are many mansions" but that would not leave a door open for many universes!?
Since any “verse” would be a result of God’s creation, then God will always be the Creator of those things, so He would always be above all....not a part of any created order.
FJ,
How ‘bout y’all invest in a basic education in fundamental logic techniques. There you will encounter the concept of ‘logical fallacies’ and how they corrupt our thinking and the products thereof.
You have just provided a splendid example of
Begging the Question / Circular Reasoning
An argument is circular if its conclusion is among its premises, if it assumes (either explicitly or not) what it is trying to prove. Such arguments are said to beg the question. A circular argument fails as a proof because it will only be judged to be sound by those who already accept its conclusion.
Anyone who rejects the argument’s conclusion should also reject at least one of its premises (the one that is the same as its conclusion), and so should reject the argument as a whole. Anyone who accepts all of the argument’s premises already accepts the argument’s conclusion, so can’t be said to have been persuaded by the argument. In neither case, then, will the argument be successful.
For example —
(1) The Bible affirms that it is inerrant.
(2) Whatever the Bible says is true.
Therefore:
(3) The Bible is inerrant.
In case you missed it, your argument consists of —
Within an infinity of Universes, ANYTHING that CAN exist WILL exist.
GOD must exist somewhere within such an infinity of Universes.
If GOD exists anywhere, “ ... then NONE of the rest of those universes could or would exist!?”
St. Anselmo’s proof that God exists depended upon accepting the premise ‘God is Perfect’ and concluding ( after appropriate hand-waving ) that He could not be ‘perfect’ if He did NOT exist, therefore He MUST exist. See the fallacy at work here ?
St. Thomas Aquinas’s proofs ( there are many ) go something like this:
In the Universe, all things that exist are the product of other things that already existed. This progression cannot continue infinitely as there most be SOMETHING that existed as the first producer of whatever came next. This first producer ( ‘first cause’ ) we have all agreed to call ‘God’. Do you see the fallacy operating here ?
This form of the argument is grossly simplified. If you insist on more elaborate forms, they are easy to find.
In any case, your presentation does not rate a passing grade in terms of logic. I will refrain from passing judgement on the theological motivations that produced it — Coach always said ‘Piling-on don’t prove nothin’ except your lack of sportsmanship.’
One Man’s Opinion
21stCenturion
The Bible was written to be understood by all, including people with absolutely zero formal education living two millennia ago.
Do you deep down believe that God created the universe in six days? Literally? 24 hour days? How do we know what a 'day' is to God?
You are getting into an area that becomes .. What can GOD do that Man can never do then.
I also know that there are some things that GOD cannot do.
Well science does, by inductive reasoning, agree that the universe had a beginning. That much science and theistic cosmology agree upon. The moment, just prior to the singularity,...that point in the history of the universe when time, space, energy and matter came to be....what caused it. Why would nothing suddenly create...it is not a scientific concept or a valid philosophical concept. To creeate everhything from nothing. Nothing exist at that time...science tells us....So, by inductive reasoning something, beyond time and space, some atemporal entity had to be the cause...had to make a personal decision to create from nothing...Creatio ex nihlo. To create 10 to the 78th power number of atoms calculated to exist in this universe....out of nothing....this is what Biblical scolars reference as the power of His Word. Creatio ex nihlo.
Since we don’t know the reason for our existence beyond the fact that we exist and God loves creating, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that our purpose goes beyond our existence on this lonely little planet.
Perhaps we are to populate all these universes.
Spot on. As yet another exercise in sci-fi stated:
"Your odyssey shall know no end. You will prosper in new worlds, new galaxies. You will populate the deepest reaches of space."
#1 The believers who accept Christ and go into the Kingdom will be able to do all they desire. With faith all things are possible. We will become like Him.
#2 The only limitations that God has are those He has self-imposed on Himself. If He were to do them then He would not be God (for example to sin or be imperfect).
No, I don't believe that the Earth or the Universe were created in a literal 24 hour day.
As a matter of fact, the Bible is it's own source of this NOT being the case.
I don't have my bible in front of me but .. Somewhere in the Genesis account it talks about "IN THE DAY" that all these things were created.
This scripture follows the days of creation story that is first laid out.
There are also scriptures that talk about "A day is a Thousand Years as a Thousand Years is a day"!
(I probably mauled that one but .. you get the idea?)
Space:1999?
Thanks for that!
Jesus, OBVIOUSLY, was right. Some people will choke on a gnat (John 3:16) and turn right around and swallow an elephant (the drivel in this article).
I cannot speak for or against multiple “other” universes. But I have chapter and verse for the future of THIS ONE....
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
He fully intends to enjoy in the future what he was cheated out of when Adam pulled a John McCain on Him. He is going to spend eternity with the family He created and loves, right here on a new Earth......at least for some length of “time” in the infinite future. For those of us who believe Him and accept His Word....we have all the “time” in the universe!
If you base your reasoning on a false assumption (there is a multiverse), then you can arrive at anything. So, no, this is not proof.
Romans 1:20 if you want proof of God. Start reading there, and take what 1:20 says, and look for truth.
The universe is existent in it’s tri-unity. The whole universe if built as 3 in one.
Very Good!! I didn’t expect anyone to get the reference. I’m impressed.
I too have struggled with the timeframe of Genesis and concluded with the literal reading of it. To create a universe in six days is something only an extraordinaire God would be capable of. Because God is the Author of time He could just as easily fast forward events to include lights from the stars to illuminate our skies as we can set the timer on a microwave. This is not deception but common sense and gives those who wish to argue against the plain Word of God something to ponder.
The Talmud tells us that the soul of Adam was created at five and a half days after the beginning of the six days. That is a half day before the termination of the sixth day. At that moment the cosmic calendar ceases and an earth based calendar starts. . How would we see those days stretched by a million million? Five and a half days times a million million, gives us five and a half million million days. Dividing that by 365 days in a year, that comes out to be 15 billion years. NASA gives a value of about 14 billion years. Considering the many approximations, and that the Bible works with only six periods of time, the agreement to within a few percent is extraordinary. The universe is billons of years old from one perspective and a mere six days old from another. And both are correct!The five and a half days of Genesis are not of equal duration. Each time the universe doubles in size, the perception of time halves as we project that time back toward the beginning of the universe.
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