Posted on 10/26/2011 5:04:31 PM PDT by Gamecock
Saul was a Pharisee among Pharisees, until the road to Damascus experience.
Paul, many years after the Damascus Road Conversion said he is a Pharisee in the present tense ('ειμι' 1st person singular present active indicative). Paul, more than you or I should know his own Pharisee status.
Here we go again. Joel Osteen is in the news once again, this time for saying that Mormonism is just another form of Christianity.
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Well when you have an unvetted board of advisories running your ministry and you wont bother to preach fromn the Bible so nobody gets their feelings hurt, this is what you get...
I knew his father John Osteen quite well..
John must be tired from all that rolling in his grave over the years...
I wonder if you went to that same 10,000+ seat church in Houston years ago when John Osteen used to have everyone hold up their Bible and say..
“This is my Bible....”
Joel doesnt seem to do that...
I seem to recall the apostle Paul making a few other statements:
* 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. (1 Cor. 9:22)
* 1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. (Romans 9:1-4)
Paul was willing to also take on a "damnation status" if it would mean more Jews would be saved.
And as 1 Cor. 9:22 shows, he took on the identity of whatever would provide the best inroads at the time. In the book of Acts, he appealed to his Roman citizenship.
All throughout the book of Acts -- like double-figures -- where was the first place Paul usually went upon entering a new community? That's right. The synagogue. Do you think had he eschewed his identity as a "Pharisee" that he would have got the hearing he rec'd in those communities?
Besides, even in the most likely interpretation -- a self-abasement of sorts...similar to 1 Tim. 1:16 where he id'd himself as the "worst of sinners"...that, too, "present tense"...it's sort of like the same mentality as a dry drunk saying...
"Once an alcoholic; always an alcoholic."
Hence:
* "Once the worst of sinners; always the worst of sinners"
* "Once a Pharisee of Pharisees, always a Pharisee of Pharisees."
Well...just guestimating now...
* 20% of Mormons are temple Mormons. Only the Lord knows their heart, but I'd be surprised if this group would be primarily focusing on "grace."
* At the other end are (who knows 20%?) jack Mormons. Inactive Mormons who have enough trouble id'ing as "Mormon" -- let alone any other religious adherence.
* Another 20% are kids & teens. Their parents, seminary teachers, & Boy Scout leaders have them zeroed in upon merit badges in both scouting and in life.
* What does that leave? Perhaps 40% in the middle?
Well, what about this group? While indeed I have the greatest hope for this group, unfortunately, most of them who give ongoing "testimonies" don't tend to "testify" to knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent -- what Jesus Himself defined as "eternal life." (John 17:3)
(But hey, let me know when you find Mormon "testimonies" that are openly throwing their leaders under the bus re: countering the # of gods their leaders have emphasized)
But aside from the sheer guesswork of numbers -- which I concede is what I just offered...sheer guesswork...the key is actually in the phrase I highlighted in your statement: "Saved [present or past tense] by grace."
For one, Mormons are so engrained to think that works trump grace -- or that grace won't kick in until YOU've done everything [see 2 Nephi 25:23 in Book of Mormon]. The problem with that Biblically -- per Paul -- is that a works orientation nullifies God's grace (see Romans 11:5-6)...If works were possible to "set us apart," then guess what? (Christ died needlessly...see Gal. 2:21).
But even worse -- and this is true for a lot of pew-sitters in Christian churches...not just Mormons...too many people think of "salvation" as only future tense. Hence, Mormons (and way too many "Christians") think of "saved" as only some future threshold to cross.
So even by THEIR own "self-application," saved -- present/past tense -- makes no sense to them. It's not even a claim they are asking to have applied to them.
The key to turning that around for people...
...outside the Christian Church,
...people inside the Christian church,
...and people in the cults would be to take what Jesus says to heart...and just believe Him at face value:
* 36 Whoever believes in the Son HAS eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. (John 3:36)
* 24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me HAS eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)
* 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes HAS eternal life. (John 6:47)
* 3 Now this is eternal life: that they KNOW YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3)
* See also 1 John 5:9-13
Unless you have Mormons -- and many members of Christian churches -- embrace these passages and believe in a present-tense relationship with the ONLY God and Jesus Christ...then eternal life tends to remain a future foggy mystery for too many.
They deny the very primary teaching of Jesus about what eternal life is: A relationship with Him that is so HIM oriented that it actually qualifies to be called salvific this side of the veil.
ALL who take this to heart: Pray with me: "Lord, knowing You IS eternal life. I believe You grant salvation to me as a free gift...NOW...I trust You. I trust and rely upon Your righteousness (Phil. 3:9; 1 Cor. 1:30) as inserted on my behalf; your blood shed to cover my sin. I am forgiven now by Your grace and mercy, not by what I have spiritually earned or accumulated. I take You at Your Word (John 11:25; 1 John 5:13). Work through me as a result of this present-tense salvation You are giving me. Help me not to see my works as a cause of my salvation. Thank You, Oh, Ultimate Lord!"
but I don't think he's in the same category as Benny Hinn
To your point they don't have joy, they're not overcomers in their lives, and are therefore of little use to God -- I don't think that is particularly correct -- joy in terms of plain human emotion is not the be-all and end-all. If one does not have joy but has faith, it is 'preferable' (if one was to compare)
Secondly, "overcomers in their lives"? I strongly disagree with that -- there are people who have been poor, homeless etc. for all of their lives, never "overcoming" poverty and yet are marvellous examples of God's grace because they have a simple faith.
Yet however, Mormonism believes in many gods. This is not the same as the Judeo-Christian belief in Monotheism.
Yes, and Mormon philosophy is completely against Christian traditional belief
I don’t know — in terms of worldly “success” the prosperity guys make a lot of money — even Harold Camping is doing pretty well despite Oct 21 having come and gone.
Our closeness with the Orthodox is true.
however, we are also close to traditional Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists in the basics of our belief (as encapsulated in the Nicene Creed) and in terms of the Sacraments
We are less close to our Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God brethren
however Mormons are literally on another planet. This is a non-Christian religion, so clubbing them with either the L,A and M or the SBC, AoG is incorrect.
Debates between Christians and Mormons are the same as debates between Christians and Moslems and nothing like intra-Christian debate.
I always thought of 'a Pharisee among Pharisees' as Paul confessing he had been a severe administerer of the law, justifying the most severe actions to shut off the 'followerrs of the Nazarene', even holding the coats of those stoning SAtephen for his devotion to The Lord. As the Apostle Paul, the once strictist legalizer among legalists taught Grace by faith in the Promises of God.
Well; according to what he is QUOTED as saying...
Joel said: “I believe that [Mormons] are Christians . . . . I don’t know if it’s the purest form of Christianity, like I grew up with. But you know what, I know Mormons. I hear Mitt Romney - and I’ve never met him - but I hear him say, ‘I believe Jesus is the son of God,’ ‘I believe he’s my savior,’ and that’s one of the core issues.”
WHOA!
My comment was pointing out the fact that the poster was calling the bringing to light on FR the truth about mormonism from original mormon sources by a few of us, "hysteria".
The work of a handful of FReepers compared to the swarming of 52,000 full time missionaries across the globe does not match the mormons for "hysteria".
what about a man who devotes many years in seminary to get his ThD?
Apples to apples. Bringing OUR message vs. their sending THEIR message. The full time Christian clergy vs. the mormon part-time clergy is a different matter entirely.
The sermons often go over the TV time limit so they probably edit that out, but every Sunday right after his joke, he has us all put up our Bibles and “say it like you mean it...” (BTW, Joel actually has a very good and scriptural purpose for doing this - Matt 13:3-23; Mark 4:4:3-20; Luke 8:4-15.)
The sermons often go over the TV time limit
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Well maybe he needs to START his broadcast having everyone say “This is my Bible...” like his Dad use to...
* What does that leave? Perhaps 40% in the middle?
I was listening to Todd Friel of Wretched Radio when he was speaking with a woman who identified herself as LDS. Todd is trashing Mormon doctrines left and right while the poor girl had no idea what Todd was talking about and summed up this confusion with "I don't believe those things" which are indeed doctrines of the LDS. The point being, is that like so many who attend some local Big Box, they have absolutely no knowledge of orthodox doctrines nor place any value on them.
Your 40% might be an understatement.
I love your analysis and hope to see more of it, particularly the Paul the Pharisee. I am always edified by seeing deft handling of the Scriptures.
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