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Purgatory: Purifying Fire or Fatal Fable?
Proclaiming the Glory of Jesus Christ in Mexico ^ | 10/29/2011 | Mike Gendron

Posted on 10/29/2011 3:31:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication. The invention of a place for purification of sins called Purgatory is one of the most seductive attractions of the Roman Catholic religion. Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said: "Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it's a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don't go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out and finally get to heaven if you've been a good Catholic. In the Catholic system you can never know you're going to heaven. You just keep trying and trying...in a long journey toward perfection. Well, it's pretty discouraging. People in that system are guilt-ridden, fear-ridden and have no knowledge of whether or not they're going to get into the Kingdom. If there's no Purgatory, there's no safety net to catch me and give me some opportunity to get into heaven. It's a second chance, it's another chance after death" (from "The Pope and the Papacy").

The Origin of Purgatory

There was no mention of Purgatory during the first two centuries of the church. However, when Roman Emperor Theodosius (379-395) decreed that Christianity was to be the official religion of the empire, thousands of pagans flooded into the Church and brought their pagan beliefs and traditions with them. One of those ancient pagan beliefs was a place of purification where souls went to make satisfaction for their sins.

The concept became much more widespread around 600 A.D. due to the fanaticism of Pope Gregory the Great. He developed the doctrine through visions and revelations of a Purgatorial fire. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (CE), Pope Gregory said Catholics "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and "the pain [is] more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life." Centuries later, at the Council of Florence (1431), it was pronounced an infallible dogma. It was later reaffirmed by the Council of Trent (1564). The dogma is based largely on Catholic tradition from extra- biblical writings and oral history. "So deep was this belief ingrained in our common humanity that it was accepted by the Jews, and in at least a shadowy way by the pagans, long before the coming of Christianity" (CE). It seems incomprehensible that Rome would admit to using a pagan tradition for the defense of one of its most esteemed "Christian" doctrines.

The Deception of Purgatory

Purgatory comes from the Latin word “purgare,” which means to make clean or to purify. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as "a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." They must be purified of these "venial" sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring "you will not surely die" when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4). The Council of Trent dares to declare that "God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction and will punish sin...The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God." (Session 15, Can. XI). Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God's perfect man and man's perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.

The Motivation for Purgatory

Over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory's fire. The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased's punishment in Purgatory. When my dear old dad passed away as a devout Catholic of 79 years, I was amazed at the hundreds of Mass cards purchased for him by well-meaning friends. We have heard of other Catholics who have willed their entire estates to their religion so that perpetual masses could be offered for them after they die. It is no wonder that the Catholic religion has become the richest institution in the world. The buying and selling of God's grace has been a very lucrative business for the Vatican.

Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!

Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!

Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!

Biblical Support for Purgatory

There is absolutely none! In fact, neither the word nor the concept of sin-purifying fire is found in Scripture. The Vatican was confronted with this in the 16th century when the Reformers protested its practice of buying and selling of God's grace through indulgences. Backed into a corner, the Council of Trent added the apocryphal books to its canon of Scripture. Rome now declares there is scriptural support for purgatory in the apocryphal book of Second Maccabees. The council ignored the fact that the Jewish scribes never recognized the apocryphal books as inspired or part of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were never included because of their many historical, theological and geographical errors. Since God is not the author of error, He obviously did not inspire the writers of the Apocrypha. This is why the Apocrypha was never included in the original canon of 66 books. ..........."

The Biblical Rebuke of Purgatory

God's Word leaves absolutely no possibility for sin to be purged away by anything other than the blood of Jesus Christ. The beloved apostle John penned these words with irrefutable clarity. He wrote, "The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" and "all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7, 9). John did not say "some" sins or "most" sins, but all sin! This soundly rebukes the need for a sin-purging fire. God's Word also declares, "All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb. 9:22). When Jesus "made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3). Those who desire to have their sins purged need to trust a person, not a place. The blood of Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin! Those who come to the cross of Christ must come with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but their sins.

Every blood-bought believer is instantly present with their Redeemer at the moment of death. To be "absent from the body" is to be "at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:6-8). This good news was affirmed by the Lord Jesus with the promise He gave to the repentant thief at Calvary. He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). This habitual sinner did not need a fire to purge his sins.

Catholics who believe in Purgatory need to be asked: "Who is in charge of releasing souls from the purging fire?" It cannot be God because of His promise to believers. "Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more" (Heb. 10:17). After conversion, God no longer counts sins against His children (2 Cor. 5:19).

Purgatory is a travesty on the justice of God and a disgraceful fabrication that robs Christ Jesus of His glory and honor. He alone satisfied divine justice, once and for all, by the perfect and finished sacrifice of Himself. The fatal deception of Purgatory blinds Catholics from the glorious Gospel of grace. It is one of Satan's many lies which keep his captives from knowing and trusting the sufficiency of Jesus Christ. It is Christ alone that will present us "faultless before the presence of his glory" (Jude 24).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholism; christ; purification; revisionisthistory; salvation; yopios
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Interesting read
1 posted on 10/29/2011 3:31:05 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Dutchboy88; Iscool; OLD REGGIE; 1000 silverlings; editor-surveyor; metmom; boatbums; Quix; ...

PING


2 posted on 10/29/2011 3:32:31 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

Humanity has both the freedom and the imagination to write the rule any way we like them.

And we do.


3 posted on 10/29/2011 3:35:51 PM PDT by Jedidah
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To: RnMomof7

Intriguing....


4 posted on 10/29/2011 3:36:46 PM PDT by Silentgypsy (If this creature is not stopped it could make its way to Novosibirsk!)
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To: Jedidah

YEP


5 posted on 10/29/2011 3:37:35 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

But it’s a dry heat.


6 posted on 10/29/2011 3:40:32 PM PDT by tumblindice
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To: RnMomof7

I always found Gendron to be one of the more self-agrandizing and humorless anti-Catholic bigots.

And anyone who knows recent history knows Gendron FEARS Staples after that last defeat Staples handed him:

http://catholictrenches.blogspot.com/2007/06/evangelist-yes-debater-no.html


7 posted on 10/29/2011 3:43:50 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: RnMomof7

Thanks for the ping. This should be interesting...


8 posted on 10/29/2011 3:44:49 PM PDT by smvoice (The Cross was NOT God's Plan B.)
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To: RnMomof7

Almost as accurate as a Chick Publication.


9 posted on 10/29/2011 3:53:09 PM PDT by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton (Go Egypt on 0bama)
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To: RnMomof7

Thanks Mom —

Great read and true. It’s sad that so many are deluded into this falsehood along with idolatry and a whole host of other cultic abominations called the Roman Catholic Church.

I thank God that He is sovereign over all things.

Hoss


10 posted on 10/29/2011 3:53:21 PM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: RnMomof7

Purgatory is more works based heresy, it denies Christ and His gift of salvation. It mocks the death of Christ Who paid for our sins by saying more than Christ and His cross are needed, we must earn our salvation.

It is also a big money maker for the RCC.

Purgatory is a doctrine of satan.

If purgatory existed the Word of God would speak of it extensively afterall it would be of paramount importance, yet is not mentioned once in either name or details of.


11 posted on 10/29/2011 3:54:28 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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hooray for strawmen....


12 posted on 10/29/2011 3:55:36 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: RnMomof7

More ridiculous clap-trap from a member of a church NOT built upon Jesus’ Rock.


13 posted on 10/29/2011 3:55:43 PM PDT by j.argese (You may think you've won the day, in the end you will surely lose the important race.)
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To: RnMomof7

among many things but let’s start with this whopper : Pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church described this deceptive hoax brilliantly. He said: “Purgatory is what makes the whole system work. Take out Purgatory and it’s a hard sell to be a Catholic. Purgatory is the safety net, when you die, you don’t go to hell. You go [to Purgatory] and get things sorted out etc ...............LOL ! so pastor ? catholicism has no hell ? no mortal sin ?
and all followers of your religion die spotless,without stain of sin ?
please give your references for your self made ideas that to begin with—catholics do not believe in hell as according to you,purgatory takes care of it all.


14 posted on 10/29/2011 3:57:08 PM PDT by catroina54
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To: HossB86
The One True Church is always ready to welcome you back.

I pray for your conversion.

15 posted on 10/29/2011 4:02:02 PM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: catroina54

Purgatory is what makes catholics secure in their sin... They know they are sinners..but Catholicism offers no gospel cure for that sin...


16 posted on 10/29/2011 4:05:29 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

Just asking but didn’t this come out of some verse in Maccabees? And during the Middle Ages people could pay their relatives out of Purgatory? When Jesus died He descended into Hell, not Purgatory. Just a clueless wondering.


17 posted on 10/29/2011 4:09:41 PM PDT by SkyDancer (Pilot: n. The Highest Form Of Life On Earth)
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To: RnMomof7

“but Catholicism offers no gospel cure for that sin..”

Believe what you will, but if you believe that you are wrong in so many ways. Catholicism is all about the Gospel cure for sin.


18 posted on 10/29/2011 4:16:00 PM PDT by GeorgiaGuy
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To: GeorgiaGuy
Believe what you will, but if you believe that you are wrong in so many ways. Catholicism is all about the Gospel cure for sin.

Can you tell us what the gospel cure for sin is?

19 posted on 10/29/2011 4:21:13 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: GeorgiaGuy
Where exactly in Scripture did Jesus use the word "purgatory"?
20 posted on 10/29/2011 4:23:21 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: RnMomof7

Believe whatever you want. I am in the Roman Catholic Church because of Jesus Christ, my Lord and Redeemer. I’ll pray for you.

By the way, under the “Motivation for Purgatory” section, you posted the same section three times running. Should get a mod to fix that for you.


21 posted on 10/29/2011 4:30:50 PM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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Ping for later reading


22 posted on 10/29/2011 4:33:38 PM PDT by wmfights (PERRY 2012)
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To: RnMomof7
He gets it wrong in his first sentence. I read no further:

Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication.

Our sins our purged by IHS and by Him alone. HOWEVER, because he wants us to be free and rational creatures, He invites our willing participation in purging some effects of the sin he purged.

This evidently being a distinction too fine for the bludgeon this writer uses on us, I see no good purpose in continuing with his screed.

23 posted on 10/29/2011 4:34:59 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Jesus, I trust in you.)
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To: RnMomof7

“Can you tell us what the gospel cure for sin is?”

Sure. The cure is Jesus Christ. The way to him is through his Bride, the Church.


24 posted on 10/29/2011 4:36:51 PM PDT by GeorgiaGuy
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To: RnMomof7
Interesting too is that no one is attempting to make a Biblical defence of the purgatory doctrine. There’ll be charges of bigotry and heresy and “we have the Church” but nothing from the Scriptures.
25 posted on 10/29/2011 4:37:29 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: RnMomof7

What an awful lie perpetrated on people who genuinely think they are going to be saved. I shudder to think of the punishment for people who perpetuate and defend the lie of purgatory.


26 posted on 10/29/2011 4:41:47 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: GeorgiaGuy
Sure. The cure is Jesus Christ. The way to him is through his Bride, the Church.

How is Jesus the cure? What does He do?

Where did Jesus teach that the way to Him is through the Roman Catholic church?

27 posted on 10/29/2011 4:42:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

The Catholic teaching on purgatory is that it has nothing to do with eternal fate. One’s eternal fate is settled when one dies believing in salvation by God’s grace alone and sorry for one’s sins or the opposite. Those who reject God, whoi refuse to repent, go to hell, not purgatory. No one is in Purgatory who will not end up in heaven. It has nothing to do with anxiety over going to hell. Everyone in Purgatory knows he will go to heaven. Period.

This article totally and completely misrepresents Catholic teaching on Purgatory.


28 posted on 10/29/2011 4:43:28 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Mad Dawg
Our sins our purged by IHS and by Him alone. HOWEVER, because he wants us to be free and rational creatures, He invites our willing participation in purging some effects of the sin he purged.

So purgatory is a volunteer situation..We could refuse and just go straight to heaven?

29 posted on 10/29/2011 4:44:43 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

who is in heaven? acording to the bible only the Father the Son the Holy Spirit and angels.


30 posted on 10/29/2011 4:44:56 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953 (Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD! Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Houghton M.

It does not say the unsaved go to purgatory ...


31 posted on 10/29/2011 4:45:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: guitarplayer1953

Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


32 posted on 10/29/2011 4:48:32 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

It actually appears that you would like to start an argument. In my opinion, any discussion of the subject on this thread would be a colossal waste of time.


33 posted on 10/29/2011 4:48:38 PM PDT by Judith Anne (HolyMary, Mother of God, please pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death)
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To: Mad Dawg
He gets it wrong in his first sentence. I read no further:
Wise. For those who want truth:

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

Thanks to StillSmallVoice and Yaacov for their help with this.

There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.

Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, "And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through...There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it's too late and permanent. So...Implicit "purgatory"

1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, "If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.

1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, "Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water."

and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, "For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit" Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.

Where is that prison? We are not told in scripture, yet this does indeed indicate that there are other "places" besides just Heaven and Hell, does it not? Believing that there is only Heaven and Hell is in fact, not scriptural.

2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. " The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you...

Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice...

The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn't clearly show this). I offer info from my good friend Stillsmallvoice who is an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel:

Quote:

"Hi all!

Our prayer, the Mourner's Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased's soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner's Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.

Look at http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning .

The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).

As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.

In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: "He will remember") and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: "God Full of Mercy") prayers (see http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).

I submit the following excerpt (from http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#Kaddish):

In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the "Old Testament"), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."

I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Stillsmallvoice was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.

In spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.

Blackie


34 posted on 10/29/2011 4:49:24 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Judith Anne

Ok then don’t post...


35 posted on 10/29/2011 4:49:27 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: narses
And more:

The Roots of Purgatory

All Christians agree that we won’t be sinning in heaven. Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is a purification.

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

Abercius

"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and [I] knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

Tertullian

"We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]" (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

John Chrysostom

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job 1:5], why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them" (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 [A.D. 392]).

"Weep for those who die in their wealth and who with all their wealth prepared no consolation for their own souls, who had the power to wash away their sins and did not will to do it. Let us weep for them, let us assist them to the extent of our ability, let us think of some assistance for them, small as it may be, yet let us somehow assist them. But how, and in what way? By praying for them and by entreating others to pray for them, by constantly giving alms to the poor on their behalf. Not in vain was it decreed by the apostles that in the awesome mysteries remembrance should be made of the departed. They knew that here there was much gain for them, much benefit. When the entire people stands with hands uplifted, a priestly assembly, and that awesome sacrificial Victim is laid out, how, when we are calling upon God, should we not succeed in their defense? But this is done for those who have departed in the faith, while even the catechumens are not reckoned as worthy of this consolation, but are deprived of every means of assistance except one. And what is that? We may give alms to the poor on their behalf" (Homilies on Philippians 3:9–10 [A.D. 402]).

Augustine

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"But by the prayers of the holy Church, and by the salvific sacrifice, and by the alms which are given for their spirits, there is no doubt that the dead are aided, that the Lord might deal more mercifully with them than their sins would deserve. The whole Church observes this practice which was handed down by the Fathers: that it prays for those who have died in the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, when they are commemorated in their own place in the sacrifice itself; and the sacrifice is offered also in memory of them, on their behalf. If, then, works of mercy are celebrated for the sake of those who are being remembered, who would hesitate to recommend them, on whose behalf prayers to God are not offered in vain? It is not at all to be doubted that such prayers are of profit to the dead; but for such of them as lived before their death in a way that makes it possible for these things to be useful to them after death" (ibid., 172:2).

"Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

"That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity 18:69 [A.D. 421]).

"The time which interposes between the death of a man and the final resurrection holds souls in hidden retreats, accordingly as each is deserving of rest or of hardship, in view of what it merited when it was living in the flesh. Nor can it be denied that the souls of the dead find relief through the piety of their friends and relatives who are still alive, when the Sacrifice of the Mediator [Mass] is offered for them, or when alms are given in the Church. But these things are of profit to those who, when they were alive, merited that they might afterward be able to be helped by these things. There is a certain manner of living, neither so good that there is no need of these helps after death, nor yet so wicked that these helps are of no avail after death" (ibid., 29:109).

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.

Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted.

+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


36 posted on 10/29/2011 4:52:41 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: RnMomof7

That was interesting. I didn’t know that.


37 posted on 10/29/2011 4:53:24 PM PDT by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: RnMomof7

Nope, not interesting. Lies and misrepresentations are not interesting.


38 posted on 10/29/2011 4:54:36 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

No infallible teaching there.... Jesus never taught it.. the apostles never taught it.. it is one of those traditions of men ...

Purgatory makes the cross of christ of no effect


39 posted on 10/29/2011 4:54:55 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: dragonblustar
That was interesting. I didn’t know that.
And you still don't. Lies told by bigots are still lies.
40 posted on 10/29/2011 4:58:32 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: RnMomof7
Lies told by bigots are still lies.
No infallible teaching there.... Jesus never taught it.. the apostles never taught it.. it is one of those traditions of men ...
Lies told by bigots are still lies.
Purgatory makes the cross of christ of no effect
Lies told by bigots are still lies.
41 posted on 10/29/2011 4:59:43 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Judith Anne

Yep. Lies told by bigots are still lies.


42 posted on 10/29/2011 5:01:02 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: narses

No infallible teachings there nares... not one.... Purgatory makes the cross of Christ of no effect


43 posted on 10/29/2011 5:02:11 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/HOW2PURG.HTM

HOW TO EXPLAIN PURGATORY TO PROTESTANTS
James Akin
Suppose a friend or co-worker comes to you and says:
<"The Catholic Church has this massive doctrine of purgatory, invented in the middle ages. The Church used to even sell indulgences to shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days. This doctrine is based on books that don't belong in the Bible. There is no place or region in the afterlife for the saved except heaven. There is no pain in the afterlife, and the minute we die we go to heaven, as Paul says, 'To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ,' praying for people in purgatory makes no sense. Worst of all, it infringes on the sufficiency of Christ's work. It is completely unbiblical. No Protestant could believe it.">

What should you say?

Well, the first thing you should say is, "Whoa! Slow down! One argument at a time, okay?" Then go over his arguments with him individually . . .

1. "The Catholic Church has this massive doctrine of purgatory." This is quite false. As an illustration of this, the section on purgatory in the  is only three paragraphs long (CCC 1030-1032). In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living. Among the things the Church does  insist on are the ideas that purgatory is a place or that it takes time, as we shall see below.

2. "Invented in the middle ages." The idea that purgatory is a late invention is similarly false. In fact, it has been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. It is witnessed to not only in such as 2 Maccabees, which itself witnesses to the belief (see below), but in other pre-Christian Jewish books as well, such as , which speaks of Adam being freed from purgatory on the Last Day. It was also part of the true religion in Jesus' day, as the writings of the New Testament show. And it has been part of the true religion ever since Christ's day, as the writings of the Church Fathers show (see the Catholic Answers pamphlet: "The Fathers Know Best: Purgatory"). Not only Catholics believe in this final purification, but the Eastern Orthodox do as well (though they often do not use the term "purgatory" for it), as do Orthodox Jews. In fact, to this day, when a Jewish person's loved one dies, he prays a prayer known as the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months after the death for the loved one's purification.

Because the doctrine of purgatory was held by pre-Christian Jews, post-Christian Jews, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, nobody thought of denying it until the Protestant Reformation, and thus only Protestants deny it today.

3. "The Church used to even sell indulgences to shorten your time in purgatory by a fixed number of days." Concerning this argument, first point out that it really deals with the issue of indulgences, which is a separate matter (see my piece, <"A Primer on Indulgences").> If one wishes to really hear what Catholics have to say for themselves, one subject must be dealt with at a time, not several at once in some kind of "buckshot" approach to apologetics.

Second, indulgences were  sold. At one time, for a period of perhaps two hundred years, it was possible to give a charitable donation to some cause, such as an orphanage or church building fund, as  in which an indulgence could be obtained. This was no different than Protestant ministries offering something in exchange for a charitable contribution or "love offering" to a worthy cause. However, because of the scandal that Protestants produced, over four hundred years ago (shortly after the Council of Trent) the Church forbade charitable giving as a way of obtaining indulgences.

Third, Protestants are often confused by the number of "days" that used to be attached to indulgences. They have nothing to do with time in purgatory. Indulgences originally arose as a way of shortening a penitential period on earth. The number of "days" that were attached to indulgences were not understood as shortening time in purgatory, but as easing the purification after death by an amount analogous to the shortening of an earthly penitential period by the number of days indicated.

Fourth, because some people were confused by thinking purgatory was shortened by a set number of days with an indulgence, the Church abolished the "day" figures attached to indulgences specifically to eliminate this confusion.

Fifth, the reason that the "days" were never understood to be days of literal time off in purgatory is that the medieval theologians, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, those living at precisely the period when the "days" were attached to indulgences, were very clear about the fact that time does not work the same way in the afterlife as it does here. In fact, they had a special term for it, and would contrast three different temporal modalities—the ordinary flow of events we experience here on earth, called <"time;"> the perpetual present that God experiences, called <"eternity;"> and the middle, less well understood state experienced by those in the afterlife, known as <"aeviternity.">

So the Church has never said that purgatory involves the same kind of time as we experience here on earth, or even time at all. Thus Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, no theological liberal, writes that purgatory may involve "existential" rather than "temporal" duration (cf. Ratzinger's book  It may be someone one , but experiences in a moment, rather than something one endures over time.

4. "This doctrine is based on books that don't belong in the Bible." When a Protestant says this, he has in mind 2 Maccabees 12, in which Judah Maccabee and his men pray for their fallen comrades who had "fallen asleep in righteousness" so that they may be "freed from their sins" in the afterlife, and it was a "holy and pious thought" for them to do this.

Thus 2 Maccabees endorses praying for the dead that they may be loosed from the consequences of their sins (for it must be the consequences of sin that are in mind since the saved are not sinning in the afterlife). Since it is not pleasant to be bound to the consequences of one's sins, we can infer some kind of pain or discomfort, and thus the full doctrine of purgatory—a purification (freeing) after death, which involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and which can be assisted by the prayers of the living.

However, while 2 Maccabees 12 certainly teaches the doctrine of purgatory, the doctrine is  "based on" that passage. The doctrine can also be supported from numerous passages in the New Testament, but more fundamentally (and this is what you should point out to the Protestant), it can be derived from the principles of Protestant theology alone.

You see, Protestant are very firm (in fact, insistent) about the fact that we continue sinning until the end of this life because of our corrupt nature. However, they are equally firm (if you press them) about the fact that we will not be sinning in heaven because we will no longer have a corrupt nature. Thus between death and glory there must be a sanctification—a purification—of our natures. This purification may take no time, but as we have seen, this is no barrier to the doctrine of purgatory. The fact remains that between death and glory must come purification, and that is purgatory by definition—the final purification or, to put it in more Protestant terms, "the final sanctification" or "the last rush of sanctification."

5. There is no place or region in the afterlife for the saved except heaven. Well, this may be true. The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife—meaning that purgatory may take no time—we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls—meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.

The final purification may take place in the immediate presence of God (to the extent that God's presence may be described in spatial terms). In fact, in his book on eschatology, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger describes purgatory as a fiery, transforming encounter with Christ and his love:

"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God [i.e., capable of full unity with Christ and God] and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints. Simply to look at people with any degree of realism at all is to grasp the necessity of such a process. It does not replace grace by works, but allows the former to achieve its full victory precisely as grace. What actually saves is the full assent of faith. But in most of us, that basic option is buried under a great deal of wood, hay and straw. Only with difficulty can it peer out from behind the latticework of an egoism we are powerless to pull down with our own hands. Man is the recipient of the divine mercy, yet this does not exonerate him from the need to be transformed. Encounter with the Lord this transformation. It is the fire that burns away our dross and re-forms us to be vessels of eternal joy."

Thus according to Ratzinger's way of explaining the doctrine, as we are drawn out of this life and into direct union with Jesus, his fiery love and holiness burns away all the dross and impurities in our souls and makes us fit for life in the glorious, overwhelming light of God's presence and holiness.

6. "There is no pain in the afterlife." Now this argument is quite false. It is not true that there is no pain in the afterlife, even for the saved. We are told that one day, in the eternal order, "he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:4)—but note when this happens: in the eternal order, after the descent of the New Jerusalem and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Before that time, Scripture gives us no promise that we will be free of all pain. In fact, it indicates quite the opposite. Paul tells us:

"[W]hether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men" (2 Corinthians 5:9-11).

Paul states that out of the fear of the Lord he tries to please God because we will all stand before God to be judged by whether what we have done is good or evil. Thus the prospect of appearing before Christ's judgment seat is a fearful thing, even for the Christian. This is something recognized even by Protestants. For example, in his  series (on Romans 14 in this case), Protestant preacher J. Vernon McGee commented that he was  looking forward to the judgment seat of Christ, because at his judgment seat Jesus Christ was going to take J. Vernon McGee apart, which is certainly something that Christ endorses, saying to his disciples (Christians): "Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. I tell you,  do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!" (Luke 12:2-5)

So according to both Jesus and Paul we have reason to fear the unstoppable, unavoidable, unrelenting, and microscopic examination to which our lives will be subjected when we stand before Jesus. We must not have an unreasonable, unhealthy fear of this, the kind which leads to despair, but we must have the healthy, Godly fear which Paul and Jesus counsel.

The painful loss which even the righteous will experience in the afterlife is brought forward with especial clarity in 1 Corinthians, where Paul tells us:

"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

This clearly applies to the saved, for Paul says so ("he himself will be saved"), but it does not indicates that this life-review will be fun, for Paul also says, the person in question's work "is burned up" and "he will suffer loss" and though he will be saved, it will be "only as through fire." Needless to say, seeing ones life's work go up in flames, suffering loss when one was expecting to "receive a reward" and escaping through the flames is not fun.

Thus the day on which we receive our particular judgment at the end of life will not be fun to the extent our works are not good. This clearly shows the reality of pain and discomfort after death but before the inauguration of the eternal order.

Now some Protestants try a dodge to get around this passage by saying that it is our works which are tested. It is true that on the surface of this passage. Paul does say our works will be tested by fire. However, this changes nothing since we will existentially  it as our works are tested and consumed. That is why Paul says one whose works survive will "receive a reward"—something he will —and one whose works are consumed will —again, something he will . Thus Paul caps the passage by saying that the saved one who suffers loss will be saved "only as through fire"—the image being that of a man escaping from a burning building, which is precisely what Paul was talking about—the local church as a building built by men either with fire-proof materials or materials which will be consumed (read the prior context). Thus the picture is of a man having built up his local church improperly, then seeing his work—the building he has built—consumed by fire, so he has to flee from it amid the flames to escape.

Thus while Paul says our works (the building we do) will be tested by fire, he envisions the flames touching us ourselves if our building ignites and we are forced to flee from it. So while under this metaphor in Paul our works are tested, we ourselves  the consequences of this testing in the most painful way possible, for it is no fun to have to escape from a burning building as the work of your life comes crashing down around you.

7. "Paul says, 'To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ.'" This is virtually the mantra of some Protestant radio personalities. However, it is totally and completely false. Paul did  say, "To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." What he actually said was this:

"6 So we are always of good courage; we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. 11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience" (2 Corinthians 5:6-11).

Notice that Paul is speaking of himself with the plural "we" in this passage, as he shows in verse 11, mentioning his evangelizing ministry and contrasting the "we" who persuade men and are known to God, with the hope that "your conscience" also has the same view of us. His words clearly have application to other people in principal, but he is speaking primarily of himself.

So what Paul says here is (v. 6) that he knows while he is in the body he is away from the Lord, which is certainly something that is true and which no Catholic would deny. We are not in the immediate, unmasked, visible presence of Christ in this life. So to this verse, a Catholic can simply say, "So what? Who does not know these things?"

Paul then states (v. 8) that he would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. This is the one which Protestant radio personalities slur into "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ." That is  what Paul said.

First of all, he is speaking concerning himself, remember, not concerning people in general. There are quite a lot of Christians, and to be frank, it is the majority of them, who would much rather be present in the body than die and go to be with Jesus. Paul's preference for death to be with Jesus over life to stay in the body is  a universal sentiment among Christians.

Second, he is expressing a . He  something to happen. But there is a big difference between saying that one wants something to happen and that it will infallibly happen.

Third, there is an even bigger difference between saying one wants two things to happen and to say that when one happens the other will happen instantaneously. For example, if I as a single person said, "I want to go home and eat dinner," I would not mean that the instant I go home I will be eating dinner. Since I am a single person, before I can dinner I have to dinner. There is obviously some time lag between my home-going and my dinner-eating. The same would can be said in the case of a person who says, "I want to go home and watch my favorite program." When one goes home, that does not mean one is instantaneously watching one's favorite program. In fact, it may be  before one's favorite program comes on.

And notice that in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man Jesus pictures the dead soul as being carried by angels to his place of rest (Luke 16:22). Obviously, under this image, some transport time is pictured.

Fourth, it also does not follow, even if one thing automatically follows from another that the two are identical. If B follows from A , it does not warrant the statement that A  B , yet this is precisely the way in which Protestant radio personalities warp Paul's language when they declare, "Paul says, 'To be absent from the body  to be present with the Lord.'" They say this in such a way that it sounds like a direct quote, not a summary, and because many people never look up the verse to see what Paul actually says, they never realize that it isn't a direct quote, and so they are misled into thinking Scripture says something it does not. Thus this (inaccurate) summary of Paul's language has passed into the realm of myth. It is one of those mythical verses that people have heard so often they think the Bible says it even though it actually doesn't (for example, "Spare the rod and spoil the child," "The lion shall lie down with the lamb," (among Pentecostals:) "Speaking in tongues is the evidence of baptism in the Holy Ghost," and the king of all mythical verses: "He helps those who help themselves"). The Protestant radio personalities thus contribute not only to the Biblical illiteracy of society in saying this, but to the Biblical literacy.

Fifth, it is especially ironic that this passage is used to disprove purgatory since it speaks (vv. 9, 10, 11) of the need to please the Lord in this life because when we  absent from the body and present with the Lord we will have to "appear before the judgment seat of Christ" to give an account of everything we have done in our life in the body, which Paul says motivates him since he is one "knowing the of the Lord." So one can say, "You want to be absent from the body and instantaneously present with Christ? Fine! Good for you! But what is going to happen when you are absent from the body and present with Christ—as this very passage shows—is the particular judgment, at which you will give an account of every one of your deeds and your works will be tested by fire."

In any event, the first thing you should point out to a Protestant who uses the "absent from the body/present with Jesus" canard is: "That's not what Paul said. What he actually said is that he 'would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.' But there is a  between the statement ' to A and to B ' and the statement ' who does A will  do B, ' much less the statement 'To A to B '!"

The second thing you should point out is this: "Hey! Remember: Purgatory may be instantaneous! So even if we were instantaneously in Christ's presence after death (contrary to Christ's illustration of being carried by angels to our destiny), so what? That doesn't make one whit of difference to the Catholic position since time does not work the same way in the after life and purgatory may simply be an instantaneous 'in the twinkling of an eye' transformation."

8. "Praying for people in purgatory makes no sense." One thing Protestants often have a hard time understanding, especially if they are aware of the fact that purgatory may take no time, is the practice of praying for those being sanctified. They will ask, "If one has died and the time of finding forgiveness is over, how can praying make any difference? And if one's purification takes no time, how can you pray for it after the fact?"

In answer to the first question, remember what purgatory is: The final stage of sanctification. Now sanctification can be painful or non-painful (usually the former), including the its final stage. So just as we may pray for others in this life to be made holy more quickly or in a non-painful way, so we may pray for those in the final stage of sanctification to be made holy more quickly or in a non-painful way.

Consider an analogy: Suppose you have a friend who goes to join the army and is in boot-camp. Now (theoretically) everyone who enters the army must be brought up to a certain level of physical excellence, which is the purpose of boot-camp. It doesn't matter where you start from, boot-camp's purpose is to bring you up to that level of physical excellence. This is what purgatory does. Purgatory is the boot-camp of heaven. The purpose of purgatory is to bring you up the level of spiritual excellence needed to experience the full-force presence of God. It doesn't matter where you start from, there will be no sinning in heaven, and you have to be brought up to that level during final sanctification, before you are glorified with God in heaven.

Now when you have a friend in boot-camp, whether a physical boot-camp here on earth or the spiritual boot-camp in the afterlife, you can pray for him that boot-camp will go easier on him, that he will brought up to the level of excellence he needs in the most painless way possible. It may or may not shorten his time in boot-camp (in fact, in the U.S. Army boot-camp is of a fixed length), but you can still pray that it will go easier on him as he is brought to where he needs to be.

In regard to the second question, how we can pray for someone if their purification was instantaneous, this is no different than praying for any past event. God is outside of time and so knows your request from all eternity, meaning he can apply your request to whatever period in time it is relevant to. Thus many a Protestant minister, thinking of someone who has just died and whose profession of faith was doubtful, will say, "O Lord, if it is your will, may he have put his faith in your Son before he died!" Similarly, many Protestant laity, when furiously rushing home because a terrible accident has happened and they are afraid someone, say their daughter, is dead, will pray, "O Lord, when I get there, may she not be dead! May she not be dead, O Lord!" Of course, either she is or she isn't. She has already died or not died. But it is still rational, because God is outside of time and hears all of our requests at once, to ask God to not have let something happen to her while we were gone.

C. S. Lewis, the well-known Protestant author, talks about prayer for past events quite extensively in his writings, and he makes the point that the only time it is irrational to pray for a past event is when one  that it was not God's will to answer the prayer because one already  how the event came out. Thus it would be irrational to pray that Abraham Lincoln not be assassinated, since one already knows that he was, or it would be irrational to pray that the Nazis lose a particular battle in World War II if one already knows they won that battle. In those cases it is irrational to pray since one already knows the will of God on the matter and knows that it was not your will. But so long as one does not know what God's will is concerning something, whether it is past, present, or future, it is still rational to pray.

Thus if it turns out that purgatory is instantaneous at the point of death, it is still rational to pray that that final sanctification will have gone easier on those who experienced it, the same way it is rational for a Protestant minister at a funeral to pray in his heart, "O Lord, may this man have put his trust in your Son!"

9. "It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ's work." Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren't sufficient.

Wrong! Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for "For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says  suffering infringes on Christ's sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ's sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive  of Christ's sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for  of our sanctification—both the initial  parts. Thus it is because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ's sufferings were insufficient; rather it is  of Christ's sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

10. "It is completely unbiblical." What we have said so far should reveal the falsity of this charge. Purgatory is in no way an unbiblical doctrine. Rather, it is completely biblical on both implicit and explicit grounds. Implicitly, it can be derived from the biblical principles that we still sin till death but that there will be no sin in glory. Thus between death and glorification must come purification.

Explicitly, we not only have the witness of passages such as 2 Maccabees 12, but also the witness of passages describing our accounting before Christ in the particular judgment, including the especially vivid depiction of one escaping through the flames in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Jesus himself adds to this when he speaks in Matthew 12:32 of a sin which will neither be forgiven in this age nor the age to come, implying that some sins (venial ones of which we have not repented before death) will be forgiven when we repent the first moment of our afterlife.

Furthermore, in Matthew 5:25-26, Jesus tells us: "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny."

In this parable God is the Judge, and if we have not reconciled with our neighbors before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did to them. This is what the Bible means when it says that God will take our revenge  us, so we should not take it ourselves, because God will defend the cause of the poor and uphold the case of the widow. Whenever a poor person or widow (or anyone else) is oppressed or wronged, God will hold the oppressor accountable for what he did—unless the wronged person freely chooses to forgive the offender. In that case, God will not hold the offender accountable for the wrong he did on a human level (i.e., against the human he wronged), but unless he has obtained forgiveness from God for the wrong he did against God, he  still be held accountable for that.

Thus in our sins against others they are two dimensions—the human, by which we sin against our neighbor in the act, and the divine, by which we sin against God in the act. Thus theft is a sin against our neighbor from whom we stole and a sin against God, whose law we broke. We must obtain forgiveness from God for the divine aspect of our sin, but, as Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:25-26, we must obtain forgiveness for the human aspect of our sin from the human we sinned against. If we do not, God will hold us accountable.

Of course, since humans are finite beings, our sins against them can only merit finite punishment (compared to our sins against God, who is an infinite being, so our sins against him can merit infinite punishment). Because this punishment is finite, it must be temporary (for an eternal punishment is infinite since involves the reception of pain over an infinite period of time). But if this punishment we will receive when we are judged by God (according to Jesus' parable) is temporary, then it's purgatory. Thus Jesus says, "You will not get out until you have paid the last penny," because there  a time when your finite punishment due to the finite, human dimension of your sins will be over.

In any event, more than enough has been said to show the inaccuracy of the charge that purgatory is an unbiblical doctrine. In reality, it is very firmly rooted in Scripture.

11. "No Protestant could believe it." Sorry, but this is also false. There  Protestants who believe in purgatory. One who was very explicit about it was C. S. Lewis. In his  he wrote:

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?"

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls <demand> Purgatory, don't they? Would it not beak the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleansed first.' "It may hurt, you know'—"Even so, sir.'"

"I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much."

"My favorite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

But beyond Protestants like Lewis, who openly admit their belief in purgatory, it may be said that Protestants in general believe in purgatory, they just don't call it that. For every historic Protestant will admit that our sinning in this life does not continue into heaven. In fact, they will be quite insistent that although our sanctification is not complete in this life, it will be completed (instantaneously, they say) as soon as this life is over. But that is what purgatory is!—the final sanctification, the purification. Thus it is permissible to say that many Protestants believe in purgatory without even realizing it.

A Positive Move

All of these reflections help one understand how to respond to challenges a Protestant may make to the doctrine of purgatory. However, since they are rebuttals, they do not of themselves constitute a positive explanation of the doctrine for Protestants. If one wants to do that—to make an explanation of the doctrine rather than just to explain why the objections to it fail, then one should tie the preceding insights together and say something like this:

< "Purgatory is the name that Catholics give to the final purification which occurs at the end of life. Because we still sin in this life, but will not be sinning when we are in glory, between death and glorification must come purification. This is something even Protestants admit. Purgatory is thus the final rush of our sanctification. It is our transition into glory. All through the Christian life God is purifying our hearts, giving us greater holiness, but this sanctifying process is not complete (or anything like complete) until the end of life. Thus what God did not choose to give us in this life, he chooses to give us once we are dead. "The only additional points on which the Catholic Church insists concerning the final purification are that, like sanctification in this life, it can involve pain or discomfort, and that, as when someone is being sanctified in this life, we can pray for someone being sanctified in purgatory. The Church does not teach that purgatory occurs in a special region of the afterlife or even that it takes place over time, for we have little idea how time works in the afterlife, and purgatory may be instantaneous from our point of view."

> You can then go on to back these up with the Bible verses and other material we have already discussed. In general, you should use the term "sanctification" rather than "purification" or "purging" because "sanctification" is a term Protestants understand and are comfortable with. By phrasing the doctrine in terms of sanctification it makes it intelligible to them and knocks down many of their key objections (for example, the idea that purgatory implies the sufferings of Christ were insufficient). Thus it is helpful to talk about the souls being  in purgatory and to describe purgatory as the final stage of sanctification. If you do this, it will make the conversation a lot smoother by talking in the language of the person you are talking with, rather than insisting he come over to using your language when he is only barely familiar (and highly skeptical, if not highly hostile) to the idea you are expressing.

Additionally, there are a couple of further points that you should make in your explanation, because many Protestants are confused about them.

Purgatory is not a middle destiny! First, you should explain that purgatory is  a middle state between heaven and hell. This encourages the Protestant to think of it as not only a distinct region of the afterlife (something the Church does not teach) but, even worse, that purgatory is a middle  between heaven and hell. This it  false, and you should emphasize quite strenuously to the Protestant that everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven. In fact, the  one goes to purgatory is so that one can be fitted for life in heaven. Purgatory thus constitutes the cloakroom of heaven, the place you go to get spiffed up before being ushered into the Throne Room.

For this reason, you should totally avoid any language like, "Purgatory is where you go when you aren't bad enough for hell but not good enough for heaven." This language, besides sounding legalistic, is also going to get a Protestant thinking that purgatory is some kind of middle destiny rather than a temporary phenomenon. Instead, use the language the Church uses:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still , are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" ( 1030).

Thus one should put the emphasis where it belongs, on the incomplete purification of the person rather than saying, "not good enough," which implies (at least to Protestant ears) a legalistic earning of heaven.

The Joys of Purgatory To further break down the Protestant's barrier to comprehending the doctrine, point out that the Church in no way teaches that purgatory is all pain. In fact, some of the greatest saints and theologians have stressed that since the soul is in closer union with God than it is here on earth, one experiences correspondingly greater joys. Thus St. Catherine of Genoa wrote:

"God inspires the soul in Purgatory with so ardent a movement of devoted love that it would be sufficient to annihilate her were she not immortal. Illumined and inflamed by this pure charity, the more she loves God, the more she detests the least stain that displeases him, the least hindrance that prevents her union with him."

She also wrote:

"Apart from the happiness of the saints in heaven, I think there is no joy comparable to that of the souls in purgatory. An incessant communication with God renders their happiness daily more intense, and this union with God grows more and more intimate, according as the impediments to that union, which exist in the soul, are consumed. These obstacles . . . are the rust and the remains, as it were, of sin; and the fire continues to consume them, and thus the soul gradually expands under the divine influence. Thus, according as the rust diminishes and the soul is laid bare to the divine rays, happiness is augmented. The one grows and the other wanes until the time of trial is elapsed . . . With regard to the will of these souls, they can never say that these pains are pains, so great is their contentment with the ordinance of God, with which their wills are united in perfect charity."

In fact, the souls in purgatory have a large number of reasons for joy: (a) freedom from the committing of sin, (b) freedom from the desire to sin, (c) closer unity with God and Christ, (d) certainty of one's final salvation in a way not possible in this life, (e) a final and full appreciation of just how gracious God has been to one, (f) a final and full appreciation of just how much God loves one, (g) the at last unencumbered and pure love we will feel for God and for others, (h) partial rewards which may be given in anticipation of one's entrance into the full glory of heaven at the end of purgatory.

What's more, there is no teaching that the pains of purgatory outweigh the joys of purgatory. As St. Catherine says, "they can never say that these pains are pains, so great is their contentment with the ordinance of God, with which their will are united in perfect charity." It may (and in my view, it is quite likely) that the pain of seeing some of one's works go up in smoke is  overbalanced by the joy of seeing some of them remain and inwardly hearing, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant," from the ever-loving and infinitely good Source of our redemption, our life, and our very existence.

Keep the doctrine in perspective Finally, urge your Protestant brother or sister to keep the doctrine of purgatory in perspective. Protestants often feel (as I know because I was one) that Catholics place as much emphasis on given doctrines as Protestant anti-Catholic literature does. Thus, for example, when a Protestant thinks about a Catholic, he will more often think of him as someone which believes in purgatory rather than someone which believes in the Trinity, and he can mistakenly slip into thinking that purgatory is a more important doctrine to a Catholic than the Trinity.

Thus, because Protestant anti-Catholic polemics focus on areas of (real or perceived) disagreement with Catholics, these areas assume a greater prominence in the Protestant's mind and buys into a distorted view of how important given doctrines are to Catholics. Thus Protestants often imagine Catholicism is a religion of nothing but saints and statues and beads and works and penances and purgatory and suffering and a whole host of minor issues.

In doing this, they are straining at gnats but swallowing camels, missing "the weightier matters" of the Catholic faith and realizing what is more important to Catholics than not. Catholicism is in actuality a religion of God and Christ and the Trinity and redemption and forgiveness and faith and grace and joy, as illustrated by the fact that if you go to Mass and simply listen to the Church's official prayers, you hear a lot more about God and Christ and grace and joy than you do about saints and statues and beads and purgatory.

This should be pointed out, forcefully and repeatedly, to a Protestant brother so that he will have a better understanding of the essence of Catholic teaching and Catholic life, rather than assuming the discussion he hears in Protestant treatment is representative of the emphases Catholics themselves place on matters.

To this end, actually showing him the section on purgatory in the  might be beneficial, since it is only three paragraphs out of seven hundred and fifty pages of explaining what the faith is about. To this end, let's close by simply looking at the  section on purgatory and let the Church speak for itself:

< THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY 1030> All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7]

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[2 Macc 12:46] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274): DS 856] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them."[St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41, 5: PG 61, 361; cf. Job 1:5] Amen!

Provided Courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com


44 posted on 10/29/2011 5:04:32 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: RnMomof7

Lies told by bigots are still lies.


45 posted on 10/29/2011 5:05:39 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: RnMomof7
Catholics who believe a purifying fire will purge away their sins are deluded victims of a fatal fabrication.

Gendron claims to be a "Christian," but he calls Scripture a "fabrication"?

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.-- 1 Cor 3:15

For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. -- Dt 4:24

For our God is a consuming fire. -- Hebrews 12:29

Oh, look: God is a "consuming fire," when you draw close to him your sins are burned away. Latin theologians called this "purgatory". Gendron calls it a "fabrication".

I think I'll stick with the Bible, thank you very much.

For [human fathers] indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful ... -- Hebrews 12:10-11

A fabrication? LOL ...

46 posted on 10/29/2011 5:11:45 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: RnMomof7
Purgatory makes the cross of Christ of no effect

Since only those saved by the cross of Christ even GET to purgatory, this argument is complete and utter nonsense.

See my citations from Hebrews immediately above. Does the author of Hebrews "make the cross of Christ of no effect"?

47 posted on 10/29/2011 5:13:43 PM PDT by Campion ("Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies when they become fashions." -- GKC)
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To: Campion
Gendron claims to be a "Christian," but he calls Scripture a "fabrication"?
Well, lies told by bigots are still lies.
48 posted on 10/29/2011 5:16:00 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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To: Houghton M.

Jesus told the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise”, not you’ll someday be with me in paradise after you’ve gone through a purgative fire for several thousand years.

This was a doctrine purely and simply invented by and exploited by a church that had a monopoly on doctrine and sought to extract as much money from the populous as they could. It was the famous rejoinder “a penny in the coffer sings, a soul from purgatory springs”, along with the selling of indulgences that prompted Luther to seek the real church. Roman Catholics have been reeling for years since.


49 posted on 10/29/2011 5:16:33 PM PDT by Carl from Marietta (Herman Cain 2012..get on the CAIN train! Content of Character, that's the ticket!)
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To: Carl from Marietta; Houghton M.
This was a doctrine purely and simply invented by and exploited by a church that had a monopoly on doctrine and sought to extract as much money from the populous as they could.
Nope. From the Bible:
If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.-- 1 Cor 3:15
And more:
For [human fathers] indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful ... -- Hebrews 12:10-11

50 posted on 10/29/2011 5:20:09 PM PDT by narses (what you bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and what you loose upon earth, shall be ..)
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