All Souls' Day: Praying for the dead is a Christian duty

Only the elect go to purgatory.

Praying for those already dead seems a bit late, the die is cast. Heaven or hell, one way or the other.

So, you believe God is bound to time?

Where is it written that God turns a deaf ear to the pleas of His children when they ask for mercy for the dead?

Define elect.

That’s precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. He give his grace to us through the sacraments as a result of prayer, etc.

Maybe you should think about not praying because that adds to what Jesus did.

And you are coming at me with all sorts of Catholic dogma. I could take your points apart piece by piece. I could demand that you show Biblical authority for all your Holy Roman concepts. I could debunk all the papal traditions that have usurped the Gospel over the years. I could go on and on.

But I’ll just take my stand on the New Testament Church that Jesus died for and reject Catholicism, Protestantism and all sorts of other man made theologies and ignore your arguments as I stand on God’s word - not the Pope.

Have a Blessed Day.

I seem to recal that the Bible speaks to this.

Jesus Himself tells a story, (I believe it reads more like an EYEWITNESS account) Of a rich man and poor man. Both die. The poor man goes to Heaven, the rich to hades. The rich man is in torment, pleads for water and mercy, receives neither.

Further, he is told that no one will go back to warn his brothers. They have the same opportunity to believe or not.

For each man it is appointed to die, THEN (as in, after that)the Judgement.

So, while God is not bound by time, WE are bound by it. The time is NOW for all of us. WE have a decision, here and now, believe or dont. Having decidied, God honors that decision.

I do not pray for those who have apssed on, their die is cast.

I do pray for the living, especially those lost. Big difference

Hell isn’t Purgatory.

And prayers for mercy are prayers for mercy.

You seem to think that we are saying that prayer can change God’s mind and convert a dead, damned person into a saved person.

That’s not what we are saying at all. Purgatory is for the elect.

Actually I am not mistaken. Pope Sergius I was the one who rejected the Council of Trullo. He was the sitting Pope at the time of the Council. Pope John VIII did not become Pope until 872 some 180 years AFTER the Council.

The simple fact is the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) does not include the deuterocanonical books. Protestants do not include them as scripture because:

1) their authorship is unknown and none of the books claim to be inspired works.
2) there are doctrines in the deuterocanonical books that are at odds with the New Testament, such as salvation by works (Ecclesiasticus 3:30) and magic (Tobit 6:5-8)
3) Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha
4) further, none of the Apocryphal books are quoted in the New Testament at all (yet the Tanakh is quoted from in many places.

Rejecting is a lot easier than understanding.

No, I am not saying that at all.

I AM saying that the idea of purgatory denigrates, diminishes Jesus. It puts forth that He is not sufficient to get you to Heaven, that you MUST have prayers of men to finish the deal.

Define elect.

"t is amazing that one would discount the efficacy of Christ ..."

Since no one in any way discounts the efficacy of Christ just because they believe the Bible and what Christ said the really amazing thing is to see so many people who lap up the lies and propaganda they've been fed. Especially when they need only read the Bible to correct their faulty understanding.

I would really, Really, REALLY like to see where Christ tells of Purgatory. Perhaps even the concept thereof, if not the word.

Show me.

Not the same thing. We are not talking about that. Jesus’ passion and death on the cross accomplished salvation for us. The holy souls are SAVED already! Don’t you get it?

I give up! :-)

No one believes you “must” have prayers from others in order to “finish the deal” while in Purgatory.

You might be better served studying Catholicism rather than pontificating about it.

Do you believe that your prayers for someone’s conversion are a “must”? Does God decide to save someone based on your actions?

I would think not.

Your prayers are not a “must” and do not denigrate Jesus.

Neither do mine.

The apocrypha are books like Enoch, the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, 4th Maccabees, etc., not 1&2 Maccabees, Judith, etc.

So, Jesus never quoted from Esther. I guess Protestants should toss it from their canon. The Hebrew version doesn’t even mention God.

There are numerous allusions or references to the deuterocanonicals: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/767812/posts

2) there are doctrines in the deuterocanonical books that are at odds with the New Testament, such as salvation by works (Ecclesiasticus 3:30) and magic (Tobit 6:5-8)

You mean they are at variance with Protestant theology. Your attack there is kind of like the gay theologians who reject St. Paul’s comments about homosexuality because Jesus was silent on the issue in the gospels.

St. Augustine teaches in the City of God Book XXI, Chapter 24 Scripture citation is in bold It is then, I say, the same reason which prevents the Church at any time from praying for the wicked angels, which prevents her from praying hereafter for those men who are to be punished in eternal fire; and this also is the reason why, though she prays even for the wicked so long as they live, she yet does not even in this world pray for the unbelieving and godless who are dead. For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said,They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come. Matthew 12:32 But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, and to those on the other side, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels, and These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life, it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal...
But, say they, the Catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned. Let the Apostle James summarily reply to them: If any man say he has faith, and have not works, can faith save him? James 2:14 And who then is it, they ask, of whom the Apostle Paul says, But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire? Let us join them in their inquiry; and one thing is very certain, that it is not he of whom James speaks, else we should make the two apostles contradict one another, if the one says, Though a man's works be evil, his faith will save him as by fire, while the other says, If he have not good works, can his faith save him?...
But if this passage [of Corinthians] is to interpret that fire of which the Lord shall say to those on His left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 so that among these we are to believe there are those who build on the foundation wood, hay, stubble, and that they, through virtue of the good foundation, shall after a time be liberated from the fire that is the award of their evil deserts, what then shall we think of those on the right hand, to whom it shall be said, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you, Matthew 25:34 unless that they are those who have built on the foundation gold, silver, precious stones? But if the fire of which our Lord speaks is the same as that of which the apostle says, Yet so as by fire, then both— that is to say, both those on the right as well as those on the left— are to be cast into it. For that fire is to try both, since it is said, For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 1 Corinthians 3:13 If, therefore, the fire shall try both, in order that if any man's work abide— i.e., if the superstructure be not consumed by the fire— he may receive a reward, and that if his work is burned he may suffer loss, certainly that fire is not the eternal fire itself. I'll put St. Augustine up against any Baptist preacher any day.

1) their authorship is unknown and none of the books claim to be inspired works.

Response: Plenty of the “canonical” books of the Bible do not claim to be inspired works. If this is a prerequisite for being recognized as canonical, we should throw out a lot more than 7 Old Testament books.

2) there are doctrines in the deuterocanonical books that are at odds with the New Testament, such as salvation by works (Ecclesiasticus 3:30) and magic (Tobit 6:5-8)

Response: Ecclesiasticus (aka Sirach) 3:30 in no way teaches “salvation by works.” Don’t understand that reference at all. And Tobit 6:5-8 in no way teaches magic. The Archangel Raphael teaches the young man to keep parts of the fish for medicinal purposes. To say that he was teaching magic is an extreme stretch in logic.

3) Jesus never quoted from the Apocrypha

Response: First of all, Jesus never quoted from many of the 39 OT books that you do consider canonical, so this argument is irrelevant. I mean, what about the Book of Ruth or the Song of Songs? Jesus didn’t quote from these, so are they not canonical? Secondly, we don’t really know if Jesus quoted from the “Apocrypha” because, as John 21:25 says, everything he said and did was not recorded.

4) further, none of the Apocryphal books are quoted in the New Testament at all (yet the Tanakh is quoted from in many places.

Response: I (and many biblical scholars) disagree. The writer of James almost certainly quotes Sirach 5:13-14 in James 1:19. Matthew 27:41-43 matches Wisdom 2:12-20, and John 10:22-36 matches both 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8.

All in all, the Protestant Reformers unwisely threw out part of Sacred Scripture that had been used by Christians since the earliest days of the Church. What’s more mind-blowing in my mind, is that Protestants unhesitatingly accept the 27 books of the New Testament that were canonized by Church councils such as those at Rome, Carthage, Hippo, Florence and Trent. But the reject the some of the 46 Old Testament books defined by those same councils.

And for nearly 500 years, the heirs of the Reformation have been scrambling to defend this incoherent inconsistency and (amazingly) insist that THEY are right, but the REST of Christendom is wrong on this issue. Amazing.

The Catholic Church is the New Testament Church. BTW, it looks like you just called your own theology manmade.

Those destined for heaven.