Skip to comments.Will Catholic Mass Changes Cause Mass Confusion?
Posted on 11/24/2011 8:32:12 AM PST by Steelfish
11/23/2011 Will Catholic Mass Changes Cause Mass Confusion? Elizabeth Tenety
The Catholic Church, its religious authorities often remind its followers, is intentionally slow to change, if it ever changes at all. The ritual of Communion, where the priest consecrates the bread and wine for distribution to the faithful, for example, has been observed in similar fashion for thousands of years.
But this weekend, millions of English-speaking Catholics will experience some of the most profound change in their lifetime when the words of the Catholic liturgy are phased out in favor of a new translation.
As Michelle Boorstein reported this month, a summer survey showed that most Catholics were then unaware of the upcoming changes. In recent weeks, say church officials, priests and parishes have been preparing Catholics through instruction at religious services, direct mailings and communication campaigns.
The overhaul has been in the works for a decade, and is aimed at unifying the more than 1 billion Catholics worldwide with a translation that is as close as possible to the original Latin version. In some cases, the new language will more literally reflect the Scripture passages on which liturgical prayers were based.
One example of that shift is in a line familiar to Catholics at the height of the Mass, just before Communion. Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed, Catholics have said for decades. This weekend, those words change to, Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed. This new translation borrows from a story in the Gospel of Matthew in which Jesus entered a mans home and healed his servant.
If youre attending Mass this weekend, heres what you need to know:
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
So will I. Found out last Sunday that my parish first deacon will be this holiday weekend in Virgina, so no color commentary. In other words, the parish is going to have to with my pastor, “wing-it”.
Absolutely correct. Some of the old liberals who are complaining about the new translation were quick enough to change things forty years ago, and they then dismissed complaints with a haughty,”get over it,” attitude to older folks.
Translation: It is a DONE DEAL.
Exactly. Couldn’t agree more.
What all this English updating is simply is bringing back the importance of both PRAYER and MYSTERY to the holy mass.
And the Jesus in their minds? After forty years of dumbed down catechesis, many Catholics are very lacking in that, too. But the big question is “who Jesus.” Aldous Huxley once told the story of the young fisherman, really a boy of thirty or fourteen, who he met on the beach in Spain. He was a bright and cheery lad and Huxley liked to strike up conversations with him about. Huxley met him often since he like to walk through the village. At some point they struck up a conversation about religion. Somewhat with amusement, Huxley recalled that with just his mastery of the catechism, the boy was more than able to hold his own in the conversation —something I doubt that you or I could do easily. A year or so later, he returned and asked a local about the boy and learned that he had been lost as sea. Huxley was saddened, but reflected that the greatest mysteries could be reduced to simple forms, which if we reflect on them yield great wisdom, even in the young. We must just believe in them.
See, that is exactly it. Inspiration comes from many things and places.
Mine comes from a different place than yours, nothing wrong with it, but I wouldn`t say your less Christian because of it.
When a reporter or essayist demonstrates ignorance and stupidity within the first two or three paragraphs it's almost invariably downhill from there.
All I can say is this:
Christian rock has driven me closer to Christ.
What will be taking place is simply bringing back the Catholic mass closer to its Biblical roots.
You know, when I think of it, Latin is NOT a dead language after all.
The message I've read on the boards is that the changes are MINISCULE so there is NOTHING to be confused about. For me, the changes are almost like going back to the old missal I used the the 60's, but what do I know? I am OFTEN confused.
WOW, you could judge against the true hurch of Christ because a youth group was singing hymns to a guitar????not real strong in your faith, were you??..The extraneous songs, motions, activities, etc do not determine the validity of the religion. You may feel more comfortable with the choir and organ music, but acapella or guitar or piano changes nothing. Go to Mass, honor your religion, and get over the trivialities!!
>>You know, when I think of it, Latin is NOT a dead language after all.<<
My girls are on their fourth year of Latin study. They understand many things better than I do.
Yes. Jacques Maritain, an old liberal favorite, said that all they need do was to translate the old mass into English, which had already been done. When the new mass came out, I was surprised by the way they seemed not only to have taken a meatax to the old OCC, but also used the flattest, most banal English in the translation. The music was much the same story. Very bad copies of folk music. Instead of choirs in the back, there were bands up front, fighting for your attention. As if to compensation for the removal of all the old art, we got all thiese colorful banners and stuff, and the vestments were dipped in bright color, more or less regardless of the season. Not many people under sixty can appreciate the insanity of it all. For revolutionaries are aways out of their ever loving minds.
>>WOW, you could judge against the true hurch of Christ because a youth group was singing hymns to a guitar????<<
YOUTH GROUP?!? How old are you? Because let me tell you, in 1970 my old Polish parish got into the “Spirit of Vatican II” and stopped using the organ (huge and in the choir loft) in favor of the guitars, drums and tamborine. It wasn’t a Youth group, it was four hippies sitting in front of the 18 foot statue of The Sacred Heart of Jesus, wailing away. Right behind the altar rail.
No, my FRiend. It wasn’t a youth group. It was every mass.
The power of silence:
Finding the Essential in Silence
Pope Benedict XVI
Second Vespers with the monks in the Charterhouse at Serra San Bruno
In the late afternoon on Sunday, 9 October , the Holy Father presided at the celebration of Second Vespers in the Church of the Charterhouse at Serra San Bruno. This was the last event of his Pastoral Visit to Calabria.
The following is a translation of the Pope’s Homily, which was given in Italian.
Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,
Dear Carthusian Brothers,
Brothers and Sisters,
I thank the Lord who has brought me to this place of faith and prayer, the Charterhouse of Serra San Bruno. In renewing my grateful greeting to Archbishop Vincenzo Bertolone of Catanzaro-Squillace, I address this Carthusian Community, each one of its members, with deep affection, starting with the Prior, Fr Jacques Dupont, whom I warmly thank for his words, while I ask him to communicate my grateful thoughts and my blessing to the Minister General and to the Nuns of the Order.
I am first of all eager to stress that this Visit of mine comes in continuity with certain signs of strong communion between the Apostolic See and the Carthusian Order, which became apparent in the past century. In 1924, Pope Pius XI issued an Apostolic Constitution with which he approved the Statutes of the Order, revised in the light of the Code of Canon Law.
In May 1984, Blessed John Paul II addressed a special Letter to the Minister General, on the occasion of the ninth centenary of the foundation by St Bruno of the first community at the Chartreuse [Charterhouse] near Grenoble. On 5 October that same year my beloved Predecessor came here and the memory of him walking by these walls is still vivid.
Today I come to you in the wake of these events, past but ever timely, and I would like our meeting to highlight the deep bond that exists between Peter and Bruno, between pastoral service to the Church’s unity and the contemplative vocation in the Church.
Ecclesial communion, in fact, demands an inner force, that force which Father Prior has just recalled, citing the expression “captus ab Uno”, ascribed to St Bruno: “grasped by the One”, by God, “Unus potens per omnia”, as we sang in the Vespers hymn. From the contemplative community the ministry of pastors draws a spiritual sap that comes from God.
“Fugitiva relinquere et aeterna captare”: to abandon transient realities and seek to grasp that which is eternal. These words from the letter your Founder addressed to Rudolph, Provost of Rheims, contain the core of your spirituality (cf. Letter to Rudolph, n. 13): the strong desire to enter in union of life with God, abandoning everything else,everything that stands in the way of this communion, and letting oneself be grasped by the immense love of God to live this love alone.
Dear brothers you have found the hidden treasure, the pearl of great value (cf. Mt 13:44-46); you have responded radically to Jesus’ invitation: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me” (Mt 19:20. Every monastery male or female is an oasis in which the deep well, from which to draw “living water” to quench our deepest thirst, is constantly being dug with prayer and meditation.
However, the charterhouse is a special oasis in which silence and solitude are preserved with special care, in accordance with the form of life founded by St Bruno and which has remained unchanged down the centuries. “I live in a rather faraway hermitage... with some religious brothers”, is the concise sentence that your Founder wrote (Letter to Rudolph “the Green”, n. 4).
The Successor of Peter’s Visit to this historic Charterhouse is not only intended to strengthen those of you who live here but the entire Order in its mission which is more than ever timely and meaningful in today’s world.
Technical progress, especially in the area of transport and communications, has made human life more comfortable but also more keyed up, at times even frenetic. Cities are almost always noisy, silence is rarely to be found in them because there is always background noise, in some areas even at night.
In recent decades, moreover, the development of the media has spread and extended a phenomenon that had already been outlined in the 1960s: virtuality risks predominating over reality. Unbeknownst to them, people are increasingly becoming immersed in a virtual dimension because of the audiovisual messages that accompany their life from morning to night.
The youngest, born into this condition, seem to want to fill every empty moment with music and images, out of fear of feeling this very emptiness.
This is a trend that has always existed, especially among the young and in the more developed urban contexts but today it has reached a level such as to give rise to talk about anthropological mutation. Some people are no longer able to remain for long periods in silence and solitude.
I chose to mention this sociocultural condition because it highlights the specific charism of the Charter-house as a precious gift for the Church and for the world, a gift that contains a deep message for our life and for the whole of humanity.
I shall sum it up like this: by withdrawing into silence and solitude, human beings, so to speak, “expose” themselves to reality in their nakedness, to that apparent “void”, which I mentioned at the outset, in order to experience instead Fullness, the presence of God, of the most real Reality that exists and that lies beyond the tangible dimension.
He is a, perceptible presence in every creature: in the air that we breathe, in the light that we see and that warms us, in the grass, in stones.... God, Creator omnium, [the Creator of all], passes through all things but is beyond them and for this very reason is the foundation of them all.
The monk, in leaving everything, “takes a risk”, as it were: he exposes himself to solitude and silence in order to live on nothing but the essential, and precisely in living on the essential he also finds a deep communion with his brethren, with every human being.
Some might think that it would suffice to come here to take this “leap”. But it is not like this. This vocation, like every vocation, finds an answer in an ongoing process, in a life-long search. Indeed it is not enough to withdraw to a place such as this in order to learn to be in God’s presence.
Just as in marriage it is not enough to celebrate the Sacrament to become effectively one but it is necessary to let God’s grace act and to walk together through the daily routine of conjugal life, so becoming monks requires time, practice and patience, “in a divine and persevering vigilance”, as St Bruno said, they “await the return of their Lord so that they might be able to open the door to him as soon as he knocks” (Letter to Rudolph “the Green”, n. 4); and the beauty of every vocation in the Church consists precisely in this: giving God time to act with his Spirit and to one’s own humanity to form itself, to grow in that particular state of life according to the measure of the maturity of Christ.
In Christ there is everything, fullness; we need time to make one of the dimensions of his mystery our own. We could say that this is a journey of transformation in which the mystery of Christi’s resurrection is brought about and made manifest in us, a mystery of which the word of God in the biblical Reading from the Letter to the Romans has reminded us this evening: the Holy Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead and will give life to our mortal bodies also (cf. Rom 8:11) is the One who also brings about our configuration to Christ in accordance with each one’s vocation, a journey that unwinds from the baptismal font to death, a passing on to the Father’s house.
In the world’s eyes it sometimes seems impossible to spend one’s whole life in a monastery but in fact a whole life barely suffices to enter into this union with God, into this essential and profound Reality which is Jesus Christ.
This is why I have come here, dear Brothers who make up the Carthusian Community of Serra San Bruno, to tell you that the Church needs you and that you need the Church!
Your place is not on the fringes: no vocation in the People of God is on the fringes. We are one body, in which every member is important and has the same dignity, and is inseparable from the whole. You too, who live in voluntary isolation, are in the heart of the Church and make the pure blood of contemplation and of the love of God course through your veins.
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis [the cross is steady while the world is turning], your motto says. The Cross of Christ is the firm point in the midst of the world’s changes and upheavals.
Life in a Charter-house shares in the stability of the Cross which is that of God, of God’s faithful love. By remaining firmly united to Christ, like the branches to the Vine, may you too, dear Carthusian Brothers, be associated with his mystery of salvation, like the Virgin Mary who stabat (stood) beneath the Cross, united with her Son in the same sacrifice of love.
Thus, like Mary and with her, you too are deeply inserted in the mystery of the Church, a sacrament of union of men with God and with each other. In this you are singularly close to my ministry. May the Most Holy Mother of the Church therefore watch over us and the holy Father Bruno always bless your community from Heaven. Amen.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi,
parce nobis, Domine.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi,
exaudi nos, Domine.
Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi,
The archives of the Religion Forum and your posting history say otherwise.
**Will Catholic Mass Changes Cause Mass Confusion?**
No, absolutely not. It will be so familiar to many.
The prayer Jesus said at that time to His Father had a specific purpose and was not some printed chant. The mass verbiage I listed includes chanted responses to the priest. There’s a big difference between the two.
Asking God three times for the same thing, is very different than mumbling the same dead words (the Rosary) over and over for a lifetime.
Furthermore, this was not the norm when Jesus prayed. There are times in our life where we will want to keep asking God for something; but, that is certainly not the same as mumbling the same WRITTEN, dead, repetitious, religious, words over and over.
Bashing is very different than criticism but I know some narrow minded brainwashed folks have trouble understanding the difference.
Cry me a river...
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Why don’t you check out a RCIA class. Your wife can tell you what that means.
Your history is well known to any one who has frequented the Religion Forum.
Here's the answer: Lists Every Catholic Should be Familiar With: The 9 Choirs of Angels
It's the choirs of angels!
"And with your spirit" is what all of the ancient liturgies say. The oldest extant example is from the Anaphora of Hippolytus in the Apostolic Constitutions (maybe as old as the 3rd Century):
The deacons shall then bring the offering to [the bishop]; and he, imposing his hand upon it, along with all the presbytery, shall say: 'The Lord be with you'. And all shall respond: 'And with your spirit' ..."For many for the forgiveness of sins" quotes Matthew 26:28. That's what the Scripture says.
"Blessed are those called to the supper" quotes Revelation 19:9. That's what the Scripture says.
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of hosts" quotes Isaiah 6:3. That's what the Scripture says.
We're hypocrites who nullify the Word of God by our "tradition" of translating it and quoting it correctly? That seems to be what you're saying.
When we quote Scripture it's "WRITTEN, dead, repetitious, religious words over and over".
When you quote Scripture it's okey-dokey.
But that's not bashing, or bigotry, or irrational hatred, or anything like that.
Jesus spoke Aramaic to his disciples. They understood that they needed to repeat his words in Greek or Latin when they preached to the world.
"Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Acts 2:6-8.
That was a miracle at Pentecost, one of many. However, you don’t believe that every Christian liturgy or gathering is miraculously translated, do you?
I laugh when I hear this, but as a Southerner I have beenb subjected to many a Baptist prayer. Seldom do they stick to scripture. Instead they open their mouths and let the words flow out, certain it is that the Spirit is speaking through them. Meanwhile the meal gets cold.
I would hope that all parishes are now supplied with proper missalettes and explanatory booklets and such. Those who do not favor this beautiful “translation” (hardly that, only about 10% of the Mass), are ignorant because they don’t realize its significance.
To improve understanding, if you want an excellent resource for yourself, a friend, a priest, or your parish, I researched quite a few and found this to be among the best:
Publisher: Magnificat (online)
Title: “Roman Missal Companion” (little booket)
Contains articulate commentary by the brilliant Anthony Esolen. Explains the complexity and method of doing good translations. Then the book goes thru each new change, with the reasoning for it.
"And these signs SHALL follow them THAT BELIEVE; In my name SHALL they cast out devils; they SHALL speak with new tongues; (verse17) they SHALL take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it SHALL not hurt them; they SHALL lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover. (verse18)".
And according to the verse right above that, verse 16: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." and then goes on to verses 17 and 18, stating what those who believed and were baptized would be able to do.
Signs SHALL follow them that believe. Shall does not mean maybe, should, can, or only on the day of Pentecost. It says ALL who believe SHALL do these things, including speaking with new tongues.
Not rock, I guess. But pleasing.
Music is such a matter of personal culture or taste. I prefer a Charles Wesley Hymn. As you probably know, Wesley’s hymns were dismissed at the time, because they aimed to popular taste. Psalms were prefered in NE churches. They didn’t even aim to sing in the same key or even the same. This is what Southers called “Cant.” Cacaphony.
I was raised Catholic, and have since left the church, and I consider myself to be a deist. But to that, I have no argument with anyone going to a church that is trying to better themselves and their community. I might not agree on theology, but if you are accomplishing the above, good by me.
I have my issues with the Catholic Church, mostly regarding the bureaucracy of it (which covered for many things, including the homosexual buggering of boys). But with that said, I have an appreciation of Mass and the special event it is for believers. I absolutely love and am awed by the churches that have been built across this country--mostly around 1900, that are absolutely beautiful. I frankly am unimpressed with the banner filled, hand holding, minimalist churches. I liked the communion rail, and big altar, and a solemn and serious service.
I don't think it was a Catholic Church, but a year or two ago there was a big youtube hit of a wedding party dancing UP the aisle. Again, I no longer consider myself of the Christian variety, but I found it disrespectful. If you want to jack around, do it in the banquet hall.
So not the same thing, and I don't know if as an ex-Catholic my opinion counts, but over the past couple years, when I go to a Mass for some family event, I am really disappointed on what a Mass has become. Maybe this new change is for the better.
It works for millions of Christians...
While you can find scripture that, although misunderstood, states that Jesus flesh is meat, you can not find in scripture where anyone is told to perform any function that turns bread into the flesh of Jesus...
Or, that Jesus comes back to earth...
You will find in scripture however, that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God...And that is not on the earth...
Those folks that leave you cold know that Jesus is STILL sitting at the right hand of the Father and they are raising their hands to him in worship...
And those cheezy songs you don't like are glorifying God...Just listen to the words...
Thanks, I think I have heard that once or twice at services I have attended in the past.
My wife has been Catholic all her life. I was a late bloomer and didn`t find Christ until my mid 30`s. One of the reasons I didn`t turn away was because of a small church in St. Louis, MO ( Trinity Church of The Nazarene , in Florissant ).
The moment I stepped through those doors I knew it was a special place. The people, the pastor , the music, all made me want to come back again and again. I could feel the love and the passion, it was real. Finally, I started to understand; things made sense. My life took a massive turn and has never been the same.
I wish I could tell you the whole story but one driving force behind my road to Christ was music. It worked for me in many ways, but that was me. Others may need a different path and I can respect that.
"And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
Just thought I'd put that out there.
I grew up in East Texas, a very Protestant area. My wife is Methodist, and I have nothing bad to say about them. I admire The Wesley Brothers. But that Church has tuned away from its founders.
John Wesley was not deep into theology: he equivocated between Calvinism and Arminianism and stressed a common morality. But he must be saddened by the way his successors have abandoned what he thought about sexual morality. Today;s morality is a kind of reversion to the morality that kept the common people of the 18th Century down spiritually and afflicted the upper classes as well.
Wesley exemplified evangelical moralism, a view that was adopted by William Wilberforce and the Clapham Section, who started the popular movement against slavery and who worked to effect the reform of manners and Morals that we associate with Victoria.
The movement had a similar effect in America. The second Great Awakening owed a lot to the Methodists, so much so that the great Catholic historian Christopher Dawson called Wesley a founder of the American Revolution. An ironic title for a man who was a political Tory and opponent of that revolution.
Just thought I'd put that out there.
And we are all familiar with that verse...
First of all, Jesus says do what in remembrance of me??? He tells us in the verse...BREAK THE BREAD...That's highly important...
Does Jesus tell anyone to turn the bread into his flesh in his absense??? NO...Does Jesus tell anyone how to turn the bread into his flesh??? NO...
“The mass verbiage I listed includes chanted responses to the priest.”
No, it doesn’t. The responses are not chanted. They are simply spoken.
“Asking God three times for the same thing, is very different than mumbling the same dead words (the Rosary) over and over for a lifetime.”
No one is mumbling any dead words in the rosary or at the Mass.
“but, that is certainly not the same as mumbling the same WRITTEN, dead, repetitious, religious, words over and over.”
So, if someone prays the Psalms he is “mumbling the same WRITTEN, dead, repetitious, religious, words over and over”?
Clearly the anti-Catholic mindset is not only idiotic, it is anti-biblical.
“The WaPo is dramatizing again.”
The WaPo is lying—still.
What do I mean by “lie?” I mean the premeditated, malicious communication of statements known to be false for the purpose of deceiving the listener (or reader).
That is their primary MO.
“What was wrong with the words Jesus said to his disciples?”
Nothing is wrong with His words. It is the misinterpretation of them that is the problem.
As Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said, “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Churchbut there are millions who hate what they mistakenly think the Catholic Church teaches.”
Defamation, which is a very, very serious sin.
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