Skip to comments.Covington Bishop: No holding hands during mass
Posted on 11/30/2011 5:08:01 PM PST by TSgt
COVINGTON, Ky. - Bishop Roger Foys of the Covington Diocese decreed that parishioners should not hold hands during the Lord's Prayer.
In his decree Bishop Foys writes:
Special note should also be made concerning the gesture for the Our Father. Only the priest is given the instruction to "extend" his hands. Neither the deacon nor the lay faithful are instructed to do this. No gesture is prescribed for the lay faithful in the Roman Missal ; nor the General Instruction of the Roman Missal , therefore the extending or holding of hands by the faithful should not be performed.
"I'm a little bit surprised," said Dan Ryan of Edgewood.
9 News spoke Ryan as he picked up his son from Covington Catholic High School.
"It helps keep us together as a family you know the motto that says a family that prays together stays together. I think there's a whole lot of room for interpretation there I think again we're talking about individual decisions and individual options there should be some discretion it sounds like to me," said Ryan.
"First, I didn't know that was an edict that Bishop Foys made but my family and I do hold hands while we say the Lord's Prayer but the way I feel about it is if that is not part of liturgy then we will follow the liturgy," said J. Zang of Crestview Hills.
In a statement to 9News diocesan spokesman Tim Fitzgerald said, "Bishop Foys purpose [in issuing the decree] was to reiterate the directives guiding the celebration of the Mass as specified by the Second Vatican Council and related Vatican documents, fulfilling his role as chief teacher of the diocese; he did so as the new translation of the Roman Missal was first used in the diocese and in the United States last weekend. The decree concerned the proper texts of Mass prayers; liturgical music; gestures for priests, deacons, religious and lay faithful; the location of the choir and other musicians; and prayerful silence before and after Mass.
It appears the parishioners don't get it either...
Snarkey Ping ;-)
When will he come out and tell Catholics they can’t support abortion?
Pelosi, Kerry and others really want to know.
I was unaware of the Biblical principle of hand-holding during prayer. Please cite the chapter and verse that teaches us this Biblical principle.
I grew up in the Church during the 60’s and the first half of the 70’s. There was never hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer. Then when I returned to the Church in the 90’s, all of a sudden everyone was holding hands, and the people on the end of the aisle were putting their free hand up in the air like some sort of lightning rod. Much changed from 1974 to 1993. :)
What the bishop is saying is that the Lord’s Prayer is supposed to be directed to Our Father. It is not a kumbaya moment.
And I fail to see how you can suggest that prayerfully saying the Lord’s Prayer in church is not biblical.
Which "Biblical principles" mandate hand-holding in church?
I understand that the same bishop also frowns on the faithful making baloney sandwiches during the Our Father. That should show you how cravenly dedicated he is to slavishly following his idolatrous traditions of men.
Matthew 16:18 “..on this rock I build my church..”
Biblical pricipals are that the church has a head. Its first head was Peter. This “headship”, or papacy, was initiated by Jesus.
If you think I have misinterpreted the verse then Read Isaiah 22 and reexamine your opinion - especially with regard to the “keys” language in both Mt. 16:20 and Isaiah.
This is the diocese that paid Stan Chesley almost $100, 000, 000. 00 to go away and let them be.
Wish all bishops took that position. And the Sign of Peace as well. It’s not that I don’t wish peace to everyone. It’s that I don’t want to shake germy hands before communion.
How does holding my husband’s hand during the prayer direct it away from Our Father? Should I put my children down as well if I’m holding one of them or is the physical contact with them also too much of a kumbaya moment?
When I was 14 the nuns would tell me and my girlfriend to not hold hands during mass. We ignored them of course.
This only applies during Mass. In private prayer you can hold your hands and arms as you see fit.
You betcha! I’m 72 years of age and I detest holding germy hands as well. I wish this ritual is stopped. I do say “Peace be to you” I don’t see the need to shake hands.
I just read Isaiah 22. It’s talking about Jesus dying for our sins.
“and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off”
Maybe the wrong reference?
I fail to see what posture, holding hands, or any other physical motion has to do with prayer. What difference does it make? And by what authority does the clergy dictate to the people their posture in prayer? Is there somewhere in the Bible that we are told to bow our heads? Or fold our hands? Or kneel? Or stand? Or lie face down on the floor?
Give US... OUR daily bread.
It’s all about US talking together to the Father.
It absolutely IS a kumbaya moment.
Thanks be to God! This hand holding business is outside the norm and quite out of hand (pun). One wonders why there wasn’t a “duh” moment the first time someone grabbed your hand. The laity had no business starting it in the first place and why the priests have stood there watching it increase over the past ten years without correction I’m sure I don’t know. It is a jarring imposition on those who are in thoughtful prayer and adhering to the norm to have to be banged on the arm with some rube standing next to you, maybe stretching four feet down the pew to reach you, with their hand out. Mass has become an occasion for sin as those of us irritated by it are irritated and distracted from our proper recollection, and the goofs participating in the hand jive may well be too ignorant of Ruberics to even be attending Mass without a Ruberics refresher course to inform them of the difference between propriety and the bizarre.
God forbid the behavior, the dress, the lack of respect in postures our young have to witness. Our foolishness will be judged.
especially in flu and cold seasons, where everybody is coughing and sneezing..
yeah. I don’t like it at all. My family and I don’t participate in that. It just seems weird to me. For goodness sakes I don’t have a problem with others doing it but I won’t.
I just will do anything NOT to do any of that...like sit way in the back..
Thanks for reading it! Verses 15-23 in Isaiah 22 should be compared to the language that Jesus uses in Matthew 18-20. This is the scripture that Catholics identify as indicating that Jesus instituted an office when he made Peter the rock and gave him the “keys”. Catholics call this office the papacy.
The keys language originated with the Jewish practice of appointing judges who were in charge of and had the keys to the closet or storage room where all the scriptures and scrolls ie knowledge for living a Godly life and the laws of God were kept. The key unlocked the area that the knowledge to follow the precepts of God was stored. The keys the apostles received was the knowledge that they were in charge of to distribute to inform people of the gospel of Jesus.
Its that I dont want to shake germy hands before communion.
I hate the “Sign of Peace”, as I think it is a distraction. As to the germs, I stopped shaking hands at this point about 3 or so years ago. I keep the hymnal in my right hand and do a little wave with my left hand. (Right before I go up for Communion, I use alcohol hand cleaner, too.)
Sorry, the time of Judges was pre-Kingdom of Israel.
Shebna was “steward” in my bible translation. He held an office. The steward could “open and shut” while Peter could “bind and loose”.
The Sunday before last, there was a woman in the frong pew raising her arms completely straight up in the air. It was quite distracting, and I am sure her exposed cleavage was distracting to the priest. When she turned around while standing and reached for something on the pew, I was stunned to see how low cut her dress was. Good grief. She did not look familiar, so I hope she was just passing through.
In services with another denomination mrs jimfree and I are sometimes holding hands during prayer. It's kind of a joint dedication. Your mileage may vary.
It has nothing to do with the time of the Judges.
>>The steward could open and shut while Peter could bind and loose.<<
Binding and losing is a different matter. When the Jewish leaders declared someone unfit to be in communion or association with people they bound that person from mingling with the people. They always considered that if they bound someone from association with believers they were also bound in heaven just as the sacrifices that were offered on earth were also sacrificed in heaven. If they later found them to be fit they would loose them to again mingle or participate in normal society. It was the same with the Apostles. If they found someone not fit to admitted to the community of believers for some reason the were authorized to bind that person from association by believers. If you want to understand the termiology and languge used do some study. Of course if you don't want to understand and find truth ignore or deny it.
Which “Biblical principles” mandate hand-holding in church?
Obviously the prohibition against hand-holding is a subtle Roman attempt to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing by allowing the left hand to come into contact with the right hand in prayer. If one wants to be pleasing to God one must studiously ignore all Papal directives and NEVER allow YOUR right hand to come into contact with YOUR left. One way to ensure this NEVER happens is to be holding the left hand of some one else. Thus, I Want to Hold Your Hand is a song mapping out a sure road to salvation.
On a non-sarcastic note, praise God for the change of guard in Covington.
There is all kinds of arm waving, imitating the priest with his appropriate arm waving. The altar girls are the worst that I've noticed, with their arm waving...or they stand with arms at their sides. There IS something in between, folks.
The ordinary folks have gotten an attack of "let's-imitate-the-priest" syndrome. The hand-holding is sweet, I suppose, especially with families but I don't want to hold hands with a stranger next to me. Geez.
I think some of the changes, the touchy-feeling ones, are STUPID.
I am not equating binding and loosing with opening and shutting. I am comparing the language. My point is that when Jesus said the words of Matthew 16:18-20, He said it in such a way that everyone present would think of Isaiah 22:15-23. Isaiah 22:15-23 is all about a vicar, a vice-president, a second in command, a royal steward - a specific office in the Kingdom of Israel.
My question to you - Why would Jesus do this? Why would Jesus make people think of Isaiah 22:15-23? You answer those questions and you will understand the Papacy.
Nice idea about the hand waving. I do shake hands with the folks I know fairly well, IF they happen to be within hand-shaking distance and that is rare. The rest? A little hand wave (my right hand) and a smile work for me, a nod to strangers.
I hate to say this but if a handsome guy HAPPENS to be near me ... I will shake his hand...and his wife's if she wants. Am I a bad girl?
The concept is the same. The keys to Davids house gave authority and access to the house of David. The keys gave access to the saving knowledge of Jesus (of Davids house) which is the gospel for salvation. The keys were the knowledge and access to Jesus who is the salvation of those who believed. And no it has nothing to do with the papacy. The Apostles gave everything we need with what they wrote about the saving grace of Jesus and the sacrifice He offered once for all. If anything all pastors, teachers, and leaders who bring the gospel message have the keys to heaven. Its the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I am Laughing OUT LOUD! You said you wished you had been there the first time someone grabbed at MY hand! How funny!
I can tell you it took me a time or two to believe what I was having to endure, before I put a stop to it. The resentment in me built and I finally decided to lock my hands from the very beginning of Mass and keep a prayer posture, of bowed head and closed eyes, through every word of the Mass, which is actually easy since every word of the Mass is a prayer.
I must have the appearance of a saint(LOL) because no one dares to touch me now, even if sitting right next to me, but then how would I know, as I have my eyes closed! Mass has become much more peaceful and my eyes are now CLEAVAGE FREE and Burmuda shorts free, and tatoo free! Ah, the advantages of closed eyes.
Have you ever noticed that the Our Father never actually ends at its Amen, but a prayer continues? Frozen in place in prayer posture, I get to appreciate the following continued prayer, while others are releasing from hand jive, straightening their hem line, coughing, and never seem to hear the continued prayer. After all, they haven’t been listening, but instead have been distracted by doing the hand jive thing with strangers. Hilarious. Thanks.
If the “keys” were intended for all then why was it that Jesus only gave them to Peter, and not to the other apostles. Jesus used very similar language in addressing the other apostles in Matthew 18, and gave them the power to “bind and loose”, but they did not get the keys. Why would they not receive the keys too? Why was it only Peter?
I cannot see how one can read Matthew 16:18-20 and conclude that the keys were for all.
I have been thinking a dress code would be nice, or at least have some charity sweaters handed out to the cleavage clappers in order to to cover up their entertainment. Modesty is neither taught, nor preached.
On the other hand, Catholics believe that prayer is between the indiviual and God. Believe it or not, the 'holding hands' thing is one of the main liturgical abuses. I always fold my hands, bow my head, close my eyes and commune with God only.
What Does GIRM 160 for the USA Really Say? (Communion posture) [Catholic Caucus]
Vatican Officials Say Bad Masses Lead to Weak Faith [Catholic Caucus]
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] THE TEN MOST COMMON LITURGICAL ABUSES
Another Look at the Orans Issue
THE TEN MOST COMMON LITURGICAL ABUSES And Why They're Wrong
Liturgical Abuses: Summarized from Redemptionis Sacramentum
Discipline Regarding Reception of Holy Communion
Principals or principles?
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I have the Keys and you can't have them. Take a walk. It will not fit anything you think it will fit.
Also don't you have an " off " button. Well push it and take a chill pill.
Maybe use less starch in that collar.
You know once in awhile it's nice to come up for air.
Our Bishop suspended the physical contact part of the sign of peace two years ago when the swine flu swept through. We didn’t do it from about November to February. Well, you should have seen the mass (pun intended!) confusion Christmas Eve! We should witness the same phenomenon this Christmas with all of the wording changes.
Just read your comments and I remember a few years back, when Catholics in my diocese only was allowed to recieve Jesus in the eucherest only, no wine from the chalice.
In regards to the old words still being use at Christmas, when those Catholics who only come a few times a year, will be very, very interesting in regards to the new English words.
What about rasing the hands up, not holding hands?
Yes actually we are told to pray in the closet...and not be like the hypocrites.