Posted on 12/11/2011 5:59:43 PM PST by rzman21
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
"But now comes the objection, ‘What need of an interpreter, when Scripture is perfectly clear?’ If it is so clear, why have such distinguished men throughout so many centuries been blind, precisely in a matter of such importance, as Luther and his adherents want us to see it? If there is nothing obscure in Scripture, what need was there for prophecy in the apostles’ time? [1 Cor 12:28]. . . But let us grant, as indeed we must, the possibility that the spirit may reveal to some humble, unlearned individual what he has not revealed to many learned men . . .
Yet if Paul, in his own age, when this gift of the spirit was flourishing, orders spirits to be tested whether they are of God [1 Cor 12:3; cf. 1 Jn 4:1], what ought we to do in this carnal age? And so, how shall we test the spirits? By learning? There are scholars on both sides. By behaviour? On both sides there are sinners . . . ‘What help in knowing the Spirit are a great many men?’ my opponents ask. ‘What help are a very few?’ I reply. . . . They ask, ‘In understanding the Scriptures, what use is an assembled synod, in which it may happen that no one has the Spirit?’ I reply, ‘What use are small private assemblies, where it is more probable that there is no one who has the Spirit?’ . . . People did not believe the apostles unless miracles had strengthened belief in their teaching. Nowadays anyone and everyone demands to be believed because he asserts that he has the evangelical spirit. . . .
If, in the event of some disagreement over the meaning of Scripture, we quote the interpretation of the ancient orthodox authorities, they immediately sing out, ‘But they were only men.’ If asked by what means we can know what the true interpretation of Scripture is, seing that there are ‘only men’ on both sides, they reply, ‘By a sign from the Spirit.’ If you ask why the Spirit should be absent from those men, some of whom have been world-famous for their miracles, rather than from themselves, they reply as though there had been no gospel in the world these thirteen hundred years. If you demand of them a life worthy of the Spirit, they reply that they are justified by faith, not works. If you ask for miracles, they say that miracles have long ceased, and that there is no need of them now that the Scriptures are so clear. And if you then say that Scripture is not clear on this point, on which so many eminent men have apparently been blind, the circle is complete.
(”Diatribe on Free Will” [1524], from: “Collected Works of Erasmus,” Vol. 76: “Controversies”, edited by Charles Trinkaus; translated by Peter Macardle and Clarence H. Miller; University of Toronto Press, 1999, pp. 17-19)
Revelation 3:1-5
New King James Version (NKJV)
Revelation 3
The Dead Church
1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a]
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
4 You[b] have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
It disturbs me greatly when men place limits on God. Christ was clear when He said that we would do greater works than Him. The Holy Spirit of the first century is just as real as the Holy Spirit today.
As for the Scriptures, I heard a preacher from Malaysia describe the Bible as a compressed disc or a zip-file. When you read into it, the Holy Spirit unzips the file, and the reader gets new revelation about juicy tidbits and meanings that were hidden before. This has definitely been my experience.
Amen.
Pride.. caused the fall and keeps unregenerate man in it
Most, if not every commentator would agree with you. I don't believe it was pride that caused the fall. I believe it was a lack of wisdom that comes from God. Please note what you stated first, that God must open the eyes and ears. It is the only way godly wisdom can come.
I believe and am very convinced that God deals with each one of us exactly the same way in our depravity and salvation throughout history. The scriptures never says that Noah sought God, only that Noah found favor with God. Abel was the same way, that God regarded Abel sacrifice but not Cain. God called to Abraham, to Moses, to Samuel, to Samson, to David, to Paul, ...on and on. Jacob He loved, but Esau He hated.
An excellent example is the death of Jeroboam's son. Please consider the following passage of Jeroboam's infant son Abijah:
1Ki 14:11 Anyone belonging to Jeroboam who dies in the city the dogs shall eat, and anyone who dies in the open country the birds of the heavens shall eat, for the LORD has spoken it."'
1Ki 14:12 Arise therefore, go to your house. When your feet enter the city, the child shall die.
1Ki 14:13 And all Israel shall mourn for him and bury him, for he only of Jeroboam shall come to the grave, because in him there is found something pleasing to the LORD, the God of Israel, in the house of Jeroboam.
One can only conclude that Abijah was saved by the Lord, even unto death. (Yes, death is not the end.) There was no confession. No walk down the aisle. No reciting the Four Spiritual Laws and praying a prayer for the infant son Abijah. The Lord just "found something pleasing" about him. Why this is I have no idea except to say that everyone who is saved, God found something pleasing to His pleasure in us. But we must be careful to note that there isn't anything in us that would please Him. A subtle but very important difference.
Abijah wasn't saved because the Lord thought that He was "good". Abijah was saved because the Lord thought that Abijah should be saved for some unknown reason. Salvation is a gift from God, less any man may boast.
Amen, and Amen. Thanking Him daily for His grace and mercy.
They were sinless..they did not need to have their eyes opened ..they were open until the fall..and the bondage of the will what was the serpents lie? You shall be as god.. that is an appeal that targets mans pride.. remember that is what also caused the fall of Lucifer
PROVERBS 16:18-19 NKJ
18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
Calvin notes this
“Augustine, indeed, is not far from the mark, when he says (in Psalm 19), that pride was the beginning of all evil, because, had not man’s ambition carried him higher than he was permitted, he might have continued in his first estate.”
http://www.calvin500.com/what-caused-the-fall-of-adam/
I don't think so. From our perspective is the essential factor Faith Alone in God? Yes! However, I think God interacts with us differently at different times.
Gen. 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man,...
Gen. 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear prepared an ark...and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
During the time of Noah the Holy Spirit did not indwell man. It did convict man of it's sin, but it was not acting as a counselor to guide God's elect. However we do see after the Cross the Holy Spirit indwells the elect and guides us. So I look at the time of Noah and see how our total depravity affects us and what we do when given absolute free will. However after the Cross God intervenes for us and guides us. So we have to different periods where Faith Alone is critical, but God deals with us differently.
I would submit that part of the reason my Reformed Brothers and Sisters struggle with eschatology is because they are trying to take how God interacts with us in one period and impose it in another.
WELL PUT.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
"I am the God that changes not" (mal 3:6),Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
I agree with Harley I think :)
Read that vs of Genesis again.. Noah FOUND grace in the eyes of God.. This is the first time that the word grace is found in the scriptures.. grace is Gods unmerited favor Wm.. Noah, like me, had done nothing to merit that favor of God.. no works.. what does eph tell us? While we were yet sinners (like Noah ) .... ... Gods grace precedes repentance and regeneration..
All of the Ot was about Gods long suffering Gods righteousness and Gods mercy and grace
I think God saved Noah exactly the same way He saved me.. by His grace and mercy ...
> I know I'm out on a heretical limb on this one. There is not one shred of fatherly history to support me. I would argue that their eyes were not opened to the truth and I would point to Eve's confusion as evidence to this fact. Eve's was deceived into sinning. Adam sinned willfully but it wasn't pride that led him to sin. There was failure to seek out God for a remedy for Eve's disobedience.
Pro 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.
This is an odd way of putting it (who am I to critique God's writing) but pride comes from lacking wisdom.
Now you can take this for what it's worth, an opinion. There something that troubles me to think that I have a different view on this then every single brilliant church theologian. :O)
Bear with me, I may not be expressing this thought as well as others might. I'm not saying that God changes. I don't believe that.
Read that vs of Genesis again.. Noah FOUND grace in the eyes of God.. This is the first time that the word grace is found in the scriptures.. grace is Gods unmerited favor Wm.. Noah, like me, had done nothing to merit that favor of God.. no works..
I'm with you 1,000%! We are saved by God's gift of Grace to us through Faith Alone. The idea of works in any way affecting our justification is a heresy of institutional orthodoxy. I've kind of veered over to something else. I see since the fall we are sinful (depraved) and left on our own we rebel. What I'm looking at is are there different periods where God intervenes and draws us to Him and are there other periods where God gives us absolute Free Will to be what we are. I think the time of Noah is one example of man having absolute Free Will. Another period would be the Tribulation. However, after the Cross God intervenes for us and sends us the Holy Spirit to indwell us and guide us. So while justification is always the same, by Faith Alone, and salvation is always the same, by Grace Alone, God does interact with us differently during different periods.
I think in some of these periods we have absolute Free Will and in other Periods we have predestination. I believe the Church Age is a time of predestination and the Tribulation is a period of Free Will. The absence of the indwelling Holy Spirit may be the critical factor.
I know we got way off track, but isn't everyone tired of going over the same old ground? ;-)
Yea.. you must be a heretic :)
She was tempted with lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life..
How was Noah’s will fre?
Hmmmm...So the nature, purpose and character of God's Spirit changed?
I would say that the Holy Spirit roll prior to the cross was just the same as after the cross. He was acting as a counselor to guide God's elect and there are a "number" of instances of this.
In Numbers for example we see this in effect where God puts his Spirit on the people:
Num 11:25 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him, and took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy elders. And as soon as the Spirit rested on them, they prophesied. But they did not continue doing it.
Num 11:26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the Spirit rested on them. They were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp.
Num 11:27 And a young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."
Num 11:28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the assistant of Moses from his youth, said, "My lord Moses, stop them."
Num 11:29 But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"
But no greater example exist than Saul's conversion at the hands of Samuel:
1Sa 10:7 Now when these signs meet you, do what your hand finds to do, for God is with you.
1Sa 10:8 Then go down before me to Gilgal. And behold, I am coming to you to offer burnt offerings and to sacrifice peace offerings. Seven days you shall wait, until I come to you and show you what you shall do."
1Sa 10:9 When he turned his back to leave Samuel, God gave him another heart. And all these signs came to pass that day.
But I would agree that starting with Pentecost, God put His Spirit in EVERY believer rather then just a few. So hope of Moses was fulfilled, where God put His Spirit on all His people.
I would submit that part of the reason my Reformed Brothers and Sisters struggle with eschatology is because they are trying to take how God interacts with us in one period and impose it in another.
I find few people except me seem to struggle with eschatology. And the reason I struggle with it is because I believe the scriptures are unclear on this unless one has an absolute grasp upon a great deal of ancient history in order to justly do a comparative analysis of the views. People want to poo-poo the first 1800 years of the church historical view in favor of a post-modern view of eschatology because it is simple and easy. Consequently it warps the doctrine of grace.
A simple illustration of this is what I tell just about everyone on this board and in which they end up taking offense; "God does not extend His special blessing to those who do not believe in His Son but His wrath rest upon them." This includes the Jews as well. People goes nutzo when I make this statement but it is a BIBLICALLY SOUND FACT. Their eschatology colors their logic of biblical stated truth.
But there is no such thing as "free" will. You have God's will and you have man's will. Man's will NEVER do God's will simply because it is completely opposite to God's will. God has to change that in order for man to do His will. The only two people that truly had "free will" was Adam and Christ.
I believe the LORD left man free during this period.
Gen. 6:5 Then the LORD saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Men were indwelt by evil and embraced it. I haven't seen anything in this chapter that indicates the LORD intervened for Noah before mankind embraced the evil.
Hmmmm...So the nature, purpose and character of God's Spirit changed?
I thought I was pretty clear on this point, but I'll try to go over it again. I'm suggesting that God interacts with his creation in different ways at different times. God does not change.
I would say that the Holy Spirit roll prior to the cross was just the same as after the cross. He was acting as a counselor to guide God's elect and there are a "number" of instances of this.
I disagree.
The passages you noted tell us the Holy Spirit was "upon" them. I don't believe you are going to find in the OT period the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling all believers.
Roms. 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Also, this role of the Holy Spirit only began after the crucifixion.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
AGREED.
THX.
I agree. There was a mystery, Paul told us, which was Christ "in you, the hope of glory". Also the Holy Spirit was the "earnest of our inheritance" which we were "sealed until the day of redemption". In the Psalms, David prays that God would "take not thy holy spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11). There definitely was a time when the Holy Spirit of God came upon men but it was not in the way that he is promised in the Church Age. The Holy Spirit INDWELLS now and it's for keeps.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.