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Planet Kolob to Mormons: Itís not our weird beliefs, itís our credibility
Mormon Matters.org ^ | Jan. 10, 2008 | John Hamer

Posted on 12/13/2011 8:11:29 AM PST by Colofornian

We know there’s a problem. Here’s how the bulk of us as Mormons see the problem:

SYMPTOMS: Americans have an anti-Mormon bias which manifests itself on the right with Evangelicals who call Mormonism “non-Christian” (and who cost Mitt Romney the Iowa Republican Caucus) and on the left with secularists and atheists decrying Mormonism’s foundational stories as an obvious “fraud.”

DIAGNOSIS: Mormons are “persecuted” by non-Mormons for their “weird” beliefs.

RECOMMENDED TREATMENT: De-emphasize (or eliminate) weird beliefs. Explain Mormonism using highly-nuanced language, which we (as Mormons) believe will satisfy non-Mormon ears (“milk before meat”).

We keep going back to the doctor because the symptoms persist. We keep refilling the prescription — and we now seem addicted to the medicine.

Unfortunately, that the diagnosis is wrong. Weird beliefs are not causing the symptoms. In the past generation, America generally has become increasingly tolerant of weird beliefs. America is more broadly pluralistic because of the influx of traditional religions that were previously unrepresented in the US (and therefore are filled with unfamiliar, weird beliefs), e.g., Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims, and also because the rise of indigenous weird beliefs: wicca, neo-paganism, American Buddhism and the various New Age ideas. (Is America ready for a neo-pagan president? No, because the masses of neo-pagans are college kids. Is America ready for a Sikh president? No, because most Sikhs are 1st generation immigrants. Is America ready for a Mormon president? Yes. Mo Udall would have beaten Gerald Ford, if he had bested Jimmy Carter in the 1976 Democratic primaries.) My point is that our society is prepared to be more broadly pluralistic than ever before. The primary component of pluralism is tolerance for our neighbor’s weird beliefs.

If it’s not so-called weird beliefs, what’s the real cause? I believe the cause of the problem is medicine we keep taking and that the underlying and resulting problem we face is credibility. It’s the milk before meat approach itself that undermines Mormon credibility. The examples of how this true problem manifests itself are so numerous — even in the past year alone — it’s hard to pick from among them. Let’s consider just one of 21 Questions Answered About Mormon Faith that the Fox News prepared in conjunction wiht the LDS church’s PR folks:

Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become “gods and goddesses” after death?

A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes.

Whachama-come again? This is a hefty dose of the medicine of de-emphasizing weird beliefs when speaking to non-Mormons. Can you argue that this bizarre answer is “not false”? Of course! And whenever anyone argues that any one of these medicinal answers is false, apologetic Mormons across the blogosphere will leap into heroic action in the answer’s defense.

And that is the problem! The problem is not whether the medicinal answers can be argued to be “not-false.” The problem is that these answers are not open and forthright, and that they thus lack credbility.

The real problem Mormons face is not that we have weirdness. It’s that we lack credibility.


TOPICS: Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: credibility; inman; lds; mormon; weird
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From the article: I believe the cause of the problem is medicine we keep taking and that the underlying and resulting problem we face is credibility. It’s the milk before meat approach itself that undermines Mormon credibility...Let’s consider just one of 21 Questions Answered About Mormon Faith that the Fox News prepared in conjunction with the LDS church’s PR folks: Q: Does the Mormon Church believe its followers can become “gods and goddesses” after death? A: We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way. Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ. The goal is not to equal them or to achieve parity with them but to imitate and someday acquire their perfect goodness, love and other divine attributes. [Back to article]: Whachama-come again? This is a hefty dose of the medicine of de-emphasizing weird beliefs when speaking to non-Mormons. Can you argue that this bizarre answer is “not false”? Of course! And whenever anyone argues that any one of these medicinal answers is false, apologetic Mormons across the blogosphere will leap into heroic action in the answer’s defense. And that is the problem! The problem is not whether the medicinal answers can be argued to be “not-false.” The problem is that these answers are not open and forthright, and that they thus lack credbility.

This Mormon author says that Mormons trying to avoid the "weird" tag do too many verbal and keyboard cartwheels...to the point that Mormons have lost credibility in the public square...this is especially true on the 'net...

1 posted on 12/13/2011 8:11:43 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

You know, colofornian, I never paid much attention to the mormonism before I started reading your posts. But you’ve really opened my eyes with all your helpful information about mormonism. I think I’ll check them out - seems like there are some compelling ideas in the LDS church, and you really can’t argue with their results. After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

Thanks again for turning me on to mormonism.


2 posted on 12/13/2011 8:17:01 AM PST by altsehastiin
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To: Colofornian

P M


3 posted on 12/13/2011 8:18:56 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Colofornian
If You Could Hie to Kolob--The Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
4 posted on 12/13/2011 8:22:50 AM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: altsehastiin

Turn on to Mormonism, get your bicycle and start knocking on doors. America needs you NOW, Joseph Smith and his many wives will thank you on the planet Kolob.


5 posted on 12/13/2011 8:23:18 AM PST by rovenstinez
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To: altsehastiin
you really can’t argue with their results

Oh, but yes you can argue with their results. Their "religion" was invented by a stone-reading, bigamist (married over 40 times), adulterer, child molester (some "wives" were 12 or 13 years old), embezzler (run out of many towns for big-time theft of other peoples' money), and inventor or the most bizarre historical mistakes and history, all the while being revered as a prophet of God (or of God himself).

So, yes, you can argue with their results. Their whole religion is a house of cards with their adherents on a quick road to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their ONLY god.

6 posted on 12/13/2011 8:24:37 AM PST by laweeks
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To: Colofornian
Credibility ultimately comes down to whether you believe Joseph Smith was who he claimed to be.

I don't.

Beyond that, the "weird" stuff is superfluous.

7 posted on 12/13/2011 8:25:30 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2012)
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To: Colofornian

Kolob = Dog. How?

Take the consonants K-L-B and look at the Semitic languages for similarities.

Arabic has the word, ‘kalb’ which uses the same consonants, which means ‘dog.’ The worst insult you can throw at a Muzzie is to say, “Ya kalb!” which means “You dog!” because dogs are considered unclean in Islam.

Hebrew has the same word, “kelev.” The ‘b’ sound is the plosive form of the ‘v’ sound.

When dogs die they don’t go to heaven, but instead, go to Planet Kolob!


8 posted on 12/13/2011 8:26:40 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: altsehastiin
I think I’ll check them out -

Be my guest. It's a "Free Republic." (Just watch your wallet if you join when approached on affinity investing...see below)

After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

Ah, yes, ye olde “fruits” of Mormonism argument...

Let's take your claims & start measuring them vs. reality:

Utah's sexual violence:

#1 ”Utah's rate of rape against women is about 10 percent higher than the national average, according to the department.” Source: Utah's sexual assault rate outpaces U.S. average

Sidebar to article mentions: » In 2008, Utah's rate of rape was 63.7 for every 100,000 females; the U.S. average is 57.4. » Reported rapes decreased in Utah about 10 percent during the 10 years ending in 2008. » Carbon, Salt Lake, Tooele, Uintah and Weber counties had higher rates of rape than the state rate between 2002 and 2008. Source: Utah Department of Health, Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification

#2 This wasn't some “new surge”: Since 1991, Utah’s rape rate has consistently inched higher than the national rate. By 2002, Utah ranked 14th in the nation for rapes. [Source url: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600125585,00.html ]

Why has Utah as of the years since 2000, consistently has ranked between 14 & 18 re: rape rate? Why as of 4 years ago, was Utah #8 in the nation for its sex offender rate per Nation Master.com?

#3 There's something about Utah itself: The Salt Lake Tribune reported Fall 2009 that in 2005, Utah ranked 16th in the nation for teacher sex offenses... Source: Sexual misconduct persistent in Utah schools

Domestic violence:

The U.S. Department of Justice reported (Fall 2001) ”that national domestic violence rates decreased 41 percent since 1993. But Utah officials reported a 31 percent increase in state domestic violence between 1997 and 2000. With those climbing numbers, Utah in 2001 had the second highest domestic violence rate in the nation.” Source url: http://byumedia.com/story.cfm/34616

Utah's White-Collar crime reputation:

(The second note below shows this problem is endemic & specific to the Mormon church):
* ”Frustrated by the wave of fraud that by one estimate took $750 million out of Utahns' pocketbooks last year, regulators, law enforcement officials and attorneys are organizing a free 'Fraud College' next month in Utah County for the public to call attention to the problem and to try to combat it.” Source: Preying on the faithful: Though Mormons often victims, LDS Church skips fraud-prevention event
* Lds members have fleeced over $1.4 billion from fellow Mormons the past few years alone! Guess what? They initially didn't regret "doing business" with them, either!!!
Source: Mormons Now Losing Billions to Affinity Fraud
* This isn't new...Utah has long been host to the most per-capita fraud in America: Salt Lake City, with a mere 170,000 residents, is by far the country’s smallest city where the scam-fighting U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission has an office. It has been there since the early 1950s. Why? “There is a lot of fraud here per capita,” says local SEC boss Kenneth Israel. “There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of work for us.” [Source url: http://www.lds-mormon.com/6303056a.shtml ]
* Utah was #1 in mortgage fraud in America by 2001 when the FBI listed Utah as No. 1 in the country for the amount of mortgage fraud cases reported. [Source url: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600151169,00.html ]

...and many other metrics.

(Oh, like depression and suicide?)

* See Two Studies Find Depression Widespread in Utah

* See Utah leads the nation in rates of depression

* See where Utah has the most anti-depressant use, especially in women: Study Finds Utah Leads Nation in Antidepressant Use. Some point to the pressures of Mormonism, especially for women, to explain the surprising findings. [Source urls:
http://www.usu.edu/psycho101/lectures/chp2methods/study.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/eveningnews/main510918.shtml ]

* ”Utah, which a 2007 report said had the country's highest rate of nonmedical painkiller abuse.” Source: Utah has new prescription for painkiller problem

* Utah leads the nation in suicides among men aged 15 to 24: As of 5 years ago: Utah leads the nation in suicides among men aged 15 to 24...Utah also has the 11th highest suicide rate — 14.3 deaths per 100,000 people — in the nation over all age groups, according to the most recent data from the American Association of Suicidology.” Deadly taboo: Youth suicide an epidemic that many in Utah prefer to ignore

* Utah has the country's highest suicide rate for males between the ages of 14 and 25. That grim statistic is given a name and a troubled family in Carol Lynn Pearson's impassioned ‘Facing East,’ now at the International City Theatre in Long Beach. Source url: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2285528/posts

* ”For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24. Source url: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/lds_LowSuicideRate.html

Now, this article actually says being active Lds "helps" in comparing rates. But this and another study I saw actually says when you compare the suicide rates for active Lds, inactive or less-active Lds, and non-Lds, the middle category is by far the highest:

In addition, per this article – the risk of suicide among males aged 15 to 19 was three times higher among the less active church members than among their active peers, but the rate among the active youth was comparable to the national suicide rate.

So...this article not only says suicide risk is 3x higher among less active Lds than active Lds (among 15-19 yo), but that the suicide rate for active Lds 15-19 yo is no different than the national suicide rate!!!

My point: Mormonism is no barrier to the suicide rate for teens, and in fact, jeopardizes more teens (the less active ones)!

9 posted on 12/13/2011 8:28:44 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

LOL So this Mormon author believes it’s not the weird Mormon beliefs, but that Mormon’s just need to stand behind their weird beliefs and be more open and forthright about them.

Here’s a clue: It’s both!

The weird Mormon beliefs fail because Joseph Smith fails the test of a prophet that Moses laid out. And the weird Mormon beliefs are contradictory to what is in Old and New Testament scripture.

We have no more reason to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet with his condemnation of prior scripture as being “full of errors and omissions” and his new scriptures , than we have to accept Mohammad as a prophet with his similar condemnation and new scriptures.

Mormon’s do indeed lack credibility. Their “We are Christians too” is proclaimed simultaneously with Joseph Smith’s vision that all existing Christian denominations were abominations. Mormon’s careful use of “highly nuanced” language to try to trick Christians into thinking that Mormon’s really are very similar, when Mormon missionary’s know full well the difference in meaning when they use those terms, is no difference than open lying.


10 posted on 12/13/2011 8:32:35 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: Jack Hydrazine

The Mormon star of Heaven means “Dog?” This is Sirius!


11 posted on 12/13/2011 8:33:54 AM PST by dangus
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To: altsehastiin
You know, colofornian, I never paid much attention to the mormonism before I started reading your posts. But you’ve really opened my eyes with all your helpful information about mormonism. I think I’ll check them out - seems like there are some compelling ideas in the LDS church, and you really can’t argue with their results. After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted. Thanks again for turning me on to mormonism.

Where's Snerdley? I think he let a seminar caller through.

12 posted on 12/13/2011 8:36:01 AM PST by CommerceComet (Governor Romney, why would any conservative vote for the author of the beta version of ObamaCare?)
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To: Colofornian
To sum up, Mormons should embrace their "weirdness" otherwise get use to being called liars, ( or just embarrassed about their beliefs which points to a lack of true faith..?)

De-emphasize (or eliminate) weird beliefs. Explain Mormonism using highly-nuanced language, which we (as Mormons) believe will satisfy non-Mormon ears (“milk before meat”).

Cult, cult, cult.

13 posted on 12/13/2011 8:37:19 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: dangus

LOL!

Yeah, it’s the only planet that I know of that’s ‘gone to the dogs.’ I bet it does revolve around Sirius!


14 posted on 12/13/2011 8:37:37 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: dangus

Darn you. You beat me to it.


15 posted on 12/13/2011 8:38:47 AM PST by null and void (Day 1057 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: altsehastiin

“After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

Thanks again for turning me on to mormonism.”

Only a Mormon would say that.


16 posted on 12/13/2011 8:38:53 AM PST by lurk
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To: altsehastiin

“Compelling ideas”?

Oh please share...


17 posted on 12/13/2011 8:40:35 AM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

...circling Uranus looking for Klingons...


18 posted on 12/13/2011 8:40:45 AM PST by null and void (Day 1057 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: Jack Hydrazine
And D O G backwards is G O D.....

Weird....

19 posted on 12/13/2011 8:42:55 AM PST by Osage Orange (HE HATE ME)
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To: dragonblustar

Weird beliefs (improbable? cultural myths) are an important ingredient of the glue that binds a society, culture, religion or nation together.


20 posted on 12/13/2011 8:43:50 AM PST by Hiddigeigei ("Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish," said Dionysus - Euripides)
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

Nice to see that someone in Obama’s economy can volunteer 10% of their gross income FOR LIFE for the mormon “fire insurance”.


21 posted on 12/13/2011 8:47:20 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Holy, Holy, Holy..."God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity")
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To: Colofornian
I'm not going to take a position on Mormon vs. traditional Christian beliefs. That's a pretty personal thing.

But the politics are what this forum is all about. And the Mormonism of Romney is, IMHO, a huge burden that will be difficult for him to overcome in this primary election but much more so in a general election.

My rationale is simple: I don't think most Americans really know much about Mormonism's beliefs. They understand that Mormons are generally speaking very good people who take care of themselves without a lot help from society.

But they are learning about Joseph Smith and some of the core Mormon beliefs now and it is hurting Romney in his run for the nomination. Assuming he wins that nomination is there any doubt that the MSM would be giving us daily lessons and not very favorable daily lessons in Mormonism. Their goal: split off the Evangelical vote, get them to stay home and win the election for Obama.

Is there any doubt about this? I don't think so. Obama wold be above the fray and the MSM would carry the water.

22 posted on 12/13/2011 8:49:54 AM PST by InterceptPoint
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To: altsehastiin

After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.

- - - - -
I feel for that bit as well. The truth is the complete opposite. I found that out the hard way (see tagline).

But hey, if you want to throw away everything away to follow a false prophet and follow a lot of silly rules and control of your own life, go ahead. That is your right. However, a life in Christ is much better. I take it you are not a Christian then, if you are seriously considering Mormonism.

www.utlm.org


23 posted on 12/13/2011 8:58:48 AM PST by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see".)
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To: Colofornian
Mormons.....the people who march through neighborhoods two by two telling people their religion is "apostate." But of course we should be "tolerant."
24 posted on 12/13/2011 9:00:16 AM PST by TPOOH (I wish I could have been Jerry Reed.)
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To: altsehastiin

[After all, mormons as a people seem to be incredibly happy, prosperous and well-adjusted.]

Actually, there are many who have been crushed by Mormonism. Talk to my jack Mormon boss who has been disowned and is now an atheist. Or the divorced women who was shunned. Or me, who was driven ut of a job by a partner who truly believed he deserved his planet. Or te people of Nevada, who have been run into the ground by Harry reid and like brothers.

In short, not all is as it seems.


25 posted on 12/13/2011 9:02:47 AM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: InterceptPoint
Their goal: split off the Evangelical vote, get them to stay home and win the election for Obama.
Is there any doubt about this? I don't think so. Obama wold be above the fray and the MSM would carry the water.

This is what we Flying Inmans have been trying to get across on FR since 2007. This is why the media is pimping Romney...Obama would walk all over him.

26 posted on 12/13/2011 9:13:11 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (Holy, Holy, Holy..."God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity")
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian
It’s that we lack credibility.

Uh...

False prophets will tend to cause that problem.

28 posted on 12/13/2011 9:20:57 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
We believe that the apostle Peter’s biblical reference to partaking of the divine nature and the apostle Paul’s reference to being ‘joint heirs with Christ’ reflect the intent that children of God should strive to emulate their Heavenly Father in every way.

Why don't they QUOTE their OWN 'scrfipture'??


The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


29 posted on 12/13/2011 9:22:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Why don't they QUOTE their OWN 'scripture'??

And sing their own hymns?


(click)
Praise to the Man!
 
 
 
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again.

Chorus
Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.


30 posted on 12/13/2011 9:23:22 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

Don’t be taken in by the window dressing.

It will lead to hell.


31 posted on 12/13/2011 9:24:15 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Colofornian
Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Indeed!e MORMONs are the ONLY folks with ONE god that happens to have TWO phyiscal bodies!

--MormonDude(No; I do NOT know why the Holy Ghost hasn't attained one yet...)

32 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Throughout the eternities, Mormons believe, they will reverence and worship God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Indeed!

We MORMONs are the ONLY folks with ONE god that happens to have TWO phyiscal bodies!

--MormonDude(No; I do NOT know why the Holy Ghost hasn't attained one yet...)

33 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:17 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
The takeaway could be termed "Embrace your inner weirdness."

Another could be "Embrace the Disgrace."

34 posted on 12/13/2011 9:25:24 AM PST by Guyin4Os (A messianic ger-tsedek)
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To: altsehastiin
But you’ve really opened my eyes with all your helpful information about mormonism.

We REALLY have to thank the MORMONs; for their penchant for recording EVERYTHING they do.

We don't lay the eggs; we just color them.

35 posted on 12/13/2011 9:27:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: laweeks; Saundra Duffy
Their whole religion is a house of cards with their adherents on a quick road to hell if they don't accept Jesus as their ONLY god.

Their own, great Brigham Young said it best:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


36 posted on 12/13/2011 9:29:38 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: DannyTN
Their “We are Christians too” is proclaimed simultaneously with Joseph Smith’s vision that all existing Christian denominations were abominations.


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

37 posted on 12/13/2011 9:31:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Hiddigeigei
Weird beliefs (improbable? cultural myths) are an important ingredient of the glue that binds a society, culture, religion or nation together.

But the BIGGY for MORMONs is their highly advanced persecution complex.

38 posted on 12/13/2011 9:33:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: altsehastiin; Colofornian

You are already a Mormon so why the post to obfuscate your identity and pretend Colofornian has nearly sinched your decision?

Milk before Meat is one Robert Millets hallmark tactics of dishonesty.


39 posted on 12/13/2011 9:33:48 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: metmom; altsehastiin
Don’t be taken in by the window dressing. It will lead to hell.

(Well, someone who might seriously contemplate Mormonism as a "pathway" isn't exactly in Kansas, anymore...sounds like no yellow brick road even in sight!)

40 posted on 12/13/2011 9:35:34 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: Colofornian

A little weirdness wont lead anyone into Hell...

and the author is right about the lack of credibilty...

See how fair and objective I can be ???

BUT

Mormonism is not merely weird...

Its blasphemy and unBiblical...

Mormonism is not Christianity...


41 posted on 12/13/2011 9:35:59 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: InterceptPoint
But the politics are what this forum is all about.

Not 'all' - this is the RELIGION area of FreeRepublic.

Most folks, who do not like to hear about or discuss religion, tend to stay away.

Oh, there'll be some who drop by to scold us for failing to tend to the more important things in life; but they usually don't stay around too long, and then we get back on the subject of ETERNAL matters.

42 posted on 12/13/2011 9:36:46 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

See how fair and objective I can be ???
_______________________________________

Yes I must remember that I was at least once...

for those times I get bashed by the anti-Christians for not being etc...

Meanwhile

still

Mormonism is not Christianity...


43 posted on 12/13/2011 9:38:53 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Guyin4Os
The takeaway could be termed "Embrace your inner weirdness." Another could be "Embrace the Disgrace."

Yup. Quite the inner turmoil.

If I were a Mormon, do I opt for...
...spin...dishonesty...euphemisms...stretches...exaggerations...prevarications...and play down the weirdness...
Or...honesty...forthrightness...credibility...intellectual integrity...all while embracing the overwhelming weird madness of it all within the Mormon belief maze???

44 posted on 12/13/2011 9:40:56 AM PST by Colofornian (Mormon polygamy: It ain't just for time anymore...Lds tie the plural knot sequentially THESE days)
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To: DannyTN

Hey Danny:
Not nit picking just clarifying for others.

Mormons do not say “We are Christians Too”. That statement would be and inclusionary statement and agreement they are part of the larger body of Christ, which clearly they cannot be, otherwise being The Restored Church doctrine fails and they are not “The Perfect Religion”.

What they do say is “I am Christian, We are Christian”. Note the possessive nature of construct which objectifies the term and makes it exclusionary, meaning “They are something....You are not something or part of that something”.

No real problem with the statement but that they are attempting to gain credibility by co-opting a term they derided for most of their doctrinal existence.


45 posted on 12/13/2011 9:42:32 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Tennessee Nana
There are many readers at FR who will not believe you when you say MormonISM is blasphemous, so why don't you explain why the following quote from the LDS inc Journal of Discourses is blasphemy? ... It will be most instructive for readers unfamiliar with the lengthy debate we've been having with LDS inc apologists for months now:

"We may talk of men being redeemed by the efficacy of his [Christ's] blood; but the truth is that that blood has no efficacy to wash away our sins. That must depend upon our own action." [ LDS Apostle Amasa M. Lyman, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 299, 1859]

You are imminently to explain this blasphemy and we look forward to your teaching, but here's why the Journal of Discourses source is so damning to LDS inc:

The following will clarify why the Journal of Discourses can be seen as a reflection of Mormonic beliefs:

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)

“Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life .” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)

“It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)

“We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the Journal of Discourses, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.” (Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 15.)


46 posted on 12/13/2011 9:44:23 AM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they cannot be deceived, it's impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: dangus

47 posted on 12/13/2011 9:44:23 AM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: FastCoyote

A good friend of mine was utterly crushed at not being able to attend the temple wedding Of her only daughter because she was not mormon. She was not even allowed to help her daughter get dressed, or enter the building. she had to stand outside in the garden.

It has caused a family rift of unbelievable proportions


48 posted on 12/13/2011 9:46:36 AM PST by Malacoda (CO(NH2)2 on OBAMA.)
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To: Colofornian

“The real problem Mormons face is not that we have weirdness. It’s that we lack credibility.”

Actually the problem is both. Many of their beliefs are factually and historically incorrect and many are theologically abhorrent to orthodox Christianity, accordingly they are accurately described as “non-Christian”. They have no credibility because they attempt to conceal their beliefs behind a vale of deceit. It is sort of like President Obama portraying himself as fiscally responsible.


49 posted on 12/13/2011 9:49:28 AM PST by Busywhiskers ("Once you have wrestled, everything else in life is easy" -Dan Gable)
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To: Colofornian; moder_ator
I had a couple similar comments removed on this and other threads wonder why.

Joseph Smith did retranslated the entire bible, and the LDS sect, under the leadership of Brigham Young did declare the entire two year work of FLDS/LDS Prophet Joseph Smith fraudulent, and they do not use it to this day.

Everything I said is precisely true. Teh fact the the Romneyites NEVER respond is proof to us here that they cannot defend this LDS sect doctrine of competing "prophets"...

I know they hate it when I bring this up, but why, moderator did you remove these comments ?

50 posted on 12/13/2011 9:50:22 AM PST by SENTINEL (Romney is to Conservatism what Mormonism is to Christianity.)
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