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"The Shroud is not a fake" (Scientists say there is no way to falsify or duplicate it)
Vatican Insider ^ | December 12, 2011 | MARCO TOSATTI

Posted on 12/14/2011 11:10:27 AM PST by NYer


The Holy Shroud

New research from ENEA on the sacred Linen kept in Turin

marco tosatti

rome

Enea, the National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Economic Development, has published a report on five years of experiments conducted in the ENEA center of Frascati on the “shroud-like coloring of linen fabrics by far ultraviolet radiation”. Simply put: we tried to understand how the Shroud of Turin was imprinted by an image so special that it constitutes its charm, and poses a great and very radical challenge, "to identify the physical and chemical processes capable of generating a color similar to that of the image on the Shroud. "

 

In the following article will see how this research developed (the complete version can be found at this link: opac.bologna.enea.it/RT/2011/2011_14_ENEA.pdf ).

Scientists (Di Lazzaro, Murra, Santoni, Nichelatti and Baldacchini)  start from the last (and only) comprehensive interdisciplinary exam of the sheet, completed in 1978 by a team of American scientists from Sturp (Shroud of Turin Research Project). A starting point which all too often those who write about and dissect the Shroud prefer not to take into account, in spite what is evidenced by available information verified by an accurate control on “peer reviewed” journals, that is, approved by other scientists in objective and independent ways.  The Enea report, with a lot of fair play and almost "en passant", very clearly refutes the hypothesis that the Shroud of Turin might be the work of a medieval forger.  The hypothesis was supported – against many weighted arguments – by the results of the disputable and probably biased - C14 measurements; a test whose credibility has been rendered ​​very fragile not only by objective difficulties (the possibility that the fabric is contaminated is very high, especially since  its historical journey is only partially known), but also from proven factual errors of calculation and the inability to obtain “raw data” from the laboratories for the necessary controls.  In spite of repeated requests. An omission which in itself can throw a heavy shadow over the scientific accuracy of the episode.

 

The report notes: “The double image (front and back) of a scourged and crucified man, barely visible on the linen cloth of the Shroud of Turin has many physical and chemical characteristics that are so particular that the staining which is identical in all its facets, would be impossible to obtain today in a laboratory, as discussed in numerous articles listed in the references.   This inability to repeat (and therefore falsify) the image on the Shroud makes it impossible to formulate a reliable hypothesis on how the impression was made.

 

In fact, today Science is still not able to explain how the body image was formed on the Shroud.  As a partial justification, Scientists complain that it is impossible to take direct measurements on the Shroud cloth.  In fact, the latest in situ experimental analysis of the physical and chemical properties of the body image of the Shroud was carried out ​​in 1978 by a group of 31 scientists under the aegis of the Shroud of Turin Research Project, Inc. (STURP).  The scientists used modern equipment for the time, made ​​available by several manufacturers for a market value of two and a half million dollars, and took ​​a number of non-destructive infrared spectroscopy measurements, visible and ultraviolet, X-ray fluorescence, thermograph, pyrolysis, mass spectrometry, micro-Raman analysis, transmission photograph, microscopy, removal of fibrils and micro-chemical tests”.  The analysis carried out on the Shroud did not find significant amounts of pigments (dyes, paints) nor traces of designs.  Based on the results of dozens of measurements, the STURP researchers concluded that the body image is not painted nor printed, nor obtained by heating.  Furthermore, the color of the image resides on the outer surface of the fibrils that make up the threads of the cloth, and recent measurements of fragments of the Shroud show that the thickness of staining is extremely thin, around 200 nm = 200 billionths of a meter, or one fifth of a thousandth of a millimeter, which corresponds to the thickness of the primary cell wall of the so-called single linen fiber.  We recall that a single linen thread is made ​​up of about 200 fibrils.

 

Other important information derived from the results of the STURP measurements are as follows: The blood is human, and there is no image beneath the bloodstains; the gradient color contains three-dimensional information of the body; colored fibers (image) are more fragile than undyed fibers; surface staining of the fibrils of the image derive from an unknown process that caused oxidation, dehydration and conjugation in the structure of the cellulose of the linen”.  In other words, the color is a result of an accelerated linen aging process”.

As already mentioned, until now all attempts to reproduce an image on linen with the same characteristics have failed.  Some researchers have obtained images with a similar appearance to the image of the Shroud, but nobody has been able to simultaneously reproduce all microscopic and macroscopic characteristics. “In this sense, the origin of the Shroud image is still unknown. This seems to be the core of the so-called “mystery of the Shroud”:  regardless of the age the Shroud, whether it is medieval (1260 - 1390) as shown by the controversial dating by radiocarbon, or older as indicated by other investigations, and regardless of the actual importance of controversial historical documents on the existence of the Shroud in the years preceding 1260, the most important question, the “question of questions” remains the same: how did that body image appear on the Shroud?”.

There are two possibilities, the scientists write, on how the sheet of the Shroud was placed around the corpse:  placed above and below (not in full contact with the whole body stiffened by rigor mortis) or pressed on the body and tied in order to be in contact with almost the entire body surface.

“The first method is supported by the fact that there is a precise relationship between the intensity (gradient) of the image and the distance between the body and the cloth.  Furthermore, the image is also present in areas of the body not in contact with the cloth, such as immediately above and below the hands, and around the tip of the nose.  The second method is less likely because the typical geometric deformations of a three dimension body brought into contact in two dimension sheet are missing.  Moreover, there is no imprint of body hips.  Consequently, we can deduce that the image was not formed by contact between linen and body”.

 

It is this observation, “coupled with the extreme superficiality of the coloring and the lack of pigments” that “makes it extremely unlikely that a shroud-like picture was obtained using a chemical contact method, both in a modern laboratory and even more so by a hypothetical medieval forger”.   “There is no image beneath the blood stains.  This means that the traces of blood deposited before the image was. Therefore, the image was formed after the corpse was laid down.  Furthermore, all the blood stains have well-defined edges, no burrs, so it can be assumed that the corpse was not removed from the sheet.  “There are no signs of putrefaction near the orifices, which usually occur around 40 hours after death.  Consequently, the image is not the result of  putrefaction gases and the corpse was not left in the sheet for more than two days”.

One of the assumptions related to the formation of the image was that regarding some  form of electromagnetic energy (such as a flash of light at short wavelength), which could fit the requirements for reproducing the main features of the Shroud image, such as superficiality of color, color gradient, the image also in areas of the body not in contact with the cloth and the absence of pigment on the sheet.  The first attempts made to reproduce the face on the Shroud by radiation, used a CO2 laser which produced an image on a linen fabric that is similar at a macroscopic level.  However, microscopic analysis showed a coloring that is too deep and many charred linen threads, features that are incompatible with the Shroud image.  Instead, the results of ENEA “show that a short and intense burst of VUV directional radiation can color a linen cloth so as to reproduce many of the peculiar characteristics of the body image on the Shroud of Turin, including shades of color, the surface color of the fibrils of the outer linen fabric, and the absence of fluorescence”. 

 

“However, Enea scientists warn, "it should be noted that the total power of VUV radiations required to instantly color the surface of linen that corresponds to a human of average height, body surface area equal to = 2000 MW/cm2 17000 cm2 = 34 thousand billion watts makes it impractical today to reproduce  the entire Shroud image using a single laser excimer, since this power cannot be produced by any VUV light source built to date (the most powerful available on the market come to several billion watts )”.

 

However the Shroud image “has some features that we are not yet able to reproduce – they admit - for example, the gradient of the image caused by a different concentration of yellow colored fibrils that alternate with unstained fibrils”.  And they warn: “We are not at the conclusion, we are composing pieces of a fascinating and complex scientific puzzle”.   The enigma of the image of the Shroud of Turin is still “a challenge for intelligence”,  as John Paul II said.



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; History; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholic; christian; medievalfake; medievalforgery; medievalfraud; orthodox; shroud; shroudofturin; turin
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To: SumProVita
Another good question is to ask what the BIBLE tells us is the foundation of all truth for the Christian?

Always a good one to ask!

51 posted on 12/14/2011 12:51:31 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: SumProVita

“...or self-righteousness.”

I think you nailed it. There’s a heapin’ helpin’ of that on this thread.


52 posted on 12/14/2011 12:54:29 PM PST by Magic Fingers
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To: SumProVita
May Christ, our Savior, grant us ALL ... HIS wisdom and insight.

You can find it in His word

53 posted on 12/14/2011 12:54:36 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: pgyanke

Indeed! The Sacred Scriptures are a great gift from our God.

;-)))


54 posted on 12/14/2011 12:55:52 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: RnMomof7

Yes, and we can also ask HIM for it. We often have not....because we ask not. Perhaps it’s because we think we already have all the answers. I think the more we grow in our relationship with Christ, the more we discover of how much re really didn’t know or understand. It’s a joyful, life process. God is sooo BIG that there is always more to discover.

:-)


55 posted on 12/14/2011 1:00:13 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: PaForBush; traderrob6; RnMomof7
As a devout Christian, I rather agree with his position. Anything that takes our attention away from God himself is a distraction - often a temptation from Satan.

Deut. 5:8 - God's commandment "thou shall not make a graven image" is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped. In Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God. This is corroborated in Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural. In fact, according to I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon's temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship. However, notice the distinction in 2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God's wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

The Shroud is not an object of worship and certainly did not come from Satan as it bears the imprint of a crucified man wearing a crown of thorns. How many men were given that honor before they were hung from the cross?

As noted in Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God

56 posted on 12/14/2011 1:02:16 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: ZX12R

“Yes, there were so many people resurrected from the dead back then, how would you ever know which one it was?”

The image itself, and the unknown manner of how it was produced also does not confirm (prove) that the person in the image was “resurrected”. It can only confirm that the shroud was placed around whoever it is in the image. When, how, why and with whom cannot be determined by any facts that can be deciphered from the shroud alone.

Regardless, belief or non-belief in such things cannot be a determining factor in a Christian’s faith. It is enough that G-d knows more than we do, always, and we can leave understanding and confirmation of such things up to G-d. We can trust that G-d will answer such questions to ALL of us when and if it is important for us to have the answers. And by G-d, I do not mean some human activity claiming to be the work of G-d.


57 posted on 12/14/2011 1:04:11 PM PST by Wuli
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To: dubyagee

Apparently an amount of end-end spectrum UV light (34 thousand billion watts worth - lots of zeros there) which no modern technology can approach. It is not idolatry to be moved and awed by an evident fingerprint of God nor amused at some scientists’ desperate attempts to explain it away. Of course, a finger print is not itself the Entity (which we do worship) Who made it, and in a real sense every sunrise and our ability to contemplate and relish it is as much a fingerprint of God as the Shroud.


58 posted on 12/14/2011 1:10:55 PM PST by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: SumProVita
Yes, and we can also ask HIM for it.

The problem is if it is His wisdom in your mind..without affirmation of the scriptures it is nothing more false wisdom... one can ask Joseph Smith about that he thought he had a pipeline to God.. or Mohammed ....he had a personal line to the wisdom of god too ..problem is ...they are false gods..

Catholics love mysticism.. so this fits right into catholic beliefs..

59 posted on 12/14/2011 1:13:45 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: SumProVita

Answer: Jesus.


60 posted on 12/14/2011 1:16:26 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: katana

Your post was as well thought-out and beautiful as it was true. Very well done. And please do not interpret my praise for your post as me worshiping your post....


61 posted on 12/14/2011 1:16:46 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Interesting Times; GreyFriar; SeraphimApprentice

Shroud of Turin ping.


62 posted on 12/14/2011 1:17:07 PM PST by zot
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To: NYer
The Shroud is not an object of worship and certainly did not come from Satan as it bears the imprint of a crucified man wearing a crown of thorns. How many men were given that honor before they were hung from the cross?

Do you KNOW for certain that the man is Christ?

Satan is the chief of deception... he loves it when men worship golden calves

63 posted on 12/14/2011 1:18:44 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: zot

The “medieval forger” theory is looking less and less convincing.


64 posted on 12/14/2011 1:30:44 PM PST by Interesting Times (WinterSoldier.com. SwiftVets.com. ToSetTheRecordStraight.com.)
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To: katana

I was lucky enough to see it in 1978, on the last day of it’s exposition. I really did not know what to expect. At first it was hard to see, simply because you are looking at a negative image, seeing the blood stained areas the brought it into focus! It was an amazing sight. When the Shroud was first photographed, the negative image came out positive, what middle ages artist could even know how to fake that.
As we walked back to our Hotel after dinner we could see the Scientists setting up their equipment in the Cathedral in hope of unraveling it’s mysteries.


65 posted on 12/14/2011 1:35:28 PM PST by Empireoftheatom48 (5-4-3-...!)
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To: NYer

Quote scripture all day long and I won’t disagree.

The point I was making was that NO one on this thread I’ve seen has advocated worshipping the shroud or anything else “graven”.

The hateful comment and self righteous superior attitude directed toward people that find this interesting and possibly even inspiring is more closely aligned with Satan than God.


66 posted on 12/14/2011 1:43:27 PM PST by traderrob6
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To: RnMomof7
If one does not understand what I wrote.. it might be that they are spiritually blind

This is really an interesting comment.

Look at the following seven words – what do they mean?

I didn't say she stole my money.

I didn't say she stole my money - someone else said it
I didn't say she stole my money - I sent the report in an email
I didn't say she stole my money - I only implied it
I didn't say she stole my money - I said someone did, not necessarily her
I didn't say she stole my money - I considered it borrowed, even though she didn't ask
I didn't say she stole my money - only that she stole money
I didn't say she stole my money - she stole stuff which cost me money to replace

Seven words, seven different meanings. And people will bet their eternal salvation on the belief they get the words of Scripture correct every time, as in “This is my Body.”

And all this and the fact:
1) Jesus NEVER gave instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book.
2) Other than the specific command to John to pen the Revelation, Jesus never told His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book.
3) Nowhere in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book.
4) The Bible does not have an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible. Where did the table of contents come from?

67 posted on 12/14/2011 1:45:54 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: RnMomof7
Satan is the chief of deception... he loves it when men worship golden calves

Apparently, he's also an idiot.

Only an idiot would leave a cloth confirming the crucifixion for modern man to see if he was intent on man disbelieving the crucifixion. He's so much of an idiot that he gave future technology (even by today's standards) to medieval forgers so they could make the resurrection and Christ's glory manifest in an imprint only explainable as beyond our ability to duplicate.

Now, once again... NO ONE IS WORSHIPPING THE SHROUD! With every examination it becomes more and more likely it is the actual burial cloth of Christ and Christ seems to have thought it necessary to give us this image. Certainly, He didn't have to do this, did He? We appreciate the gift and marvel at His Glory.

68 posted on 12/14/2011 1:49:39 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke

The whole moronic argument they present all falls apart if they could possibly admit the shroud isn’t worshiped. That is why they hold on with wicked tenacity to the on-going lie that Christians worship the shroud - without that blatant falsehood (even though those who she claims to worship it say unequivocally that they do NOT) there is no occasion for The Superior Dance.


69 posted on 12/14/2011 1:54:22 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: NYer

I’m not familiar with it, but I must say I deplore reading scientific papers and legal papers that are phrased so weirdly that I can’t understand what they’re trying to say. Can’t anyone just be simple and brief?


70 posted on 12/14/2011 2:07:12 PM PST by Doc Savage ("I've shot people I like a lot more,...for a lot less!" Raylan Givins)
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To: NYer

It’s a miracle all right - well kinda.

The front image is 6’8” long, the back 6’10”
The head is too small for the body and appears to have been “pasted” on (large separation line at neck)
If the shroud was draped around the body head-to-toe, why isn’t the top of the head shown. The intervening space is too short and the images appear hinged.

The real miracle is that it appears to be the world’s first photograph. Capturing images was widely known even in Roman times, but the image soon faded. Someone found out how to “set” the image.

Whatever it is, it sure ain’t the miracle the “Shroudies” claim.


71 posted on 12/14/2011 2:13:06 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Oatka

Bless you for a reasoned post on this thread; and the use of facts instead of ridiculous assertions.


72 posted on 12/14/2011 2:22:14 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: NYer

In other news, the IPCC says man-made global warming is real.


73 posted on 12/14/2011 2:37:41 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (New gets old. Steampunk is always cool)
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To: RnMomof7
Oh, stop being silly. If "handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from [St. Paul's] body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them," then how much more so the burial shroud of Jesus?

The Biblical Evidence for Relics & its Protestant Detractors

...The frequent Protestant objection and opposition to veneration of images or of relics (as in this case) is as silly as saying that a person raising their hands towards God in worship and praise during church is worshiping the ceiling. That person may not have an image of God in their mind, but they use the symbolism of "upwards" as being directed towards God (yet God is everywhere, so they could just as correctly stretch their arms downward or sideways).

We are physical creatures; God became man, and so by the principle of the Incarnation and sacramentalism, the physical becomes involved in the spiritual. Icons and relics are both based on these presuppositions.

2 Kings 2:11-14: “And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it and he cried, ‘My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!’ And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces. 13 And he took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, ‘Where is the Lord, the God of Elijah?’ And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Elisha went over.”

Acts 5:15-16: “. . . they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”

Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” (cf. Mt 9:20-22)


74 posted on 12/14/2011 2:40:20 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: dubyagee
“Depends on how one defines ‘worship” doesn’t it.. do you kneel down to it? Does it have spiritual value “..Do you pray before it? Do you light candles in front of it? ..All honors that belong solely to God??”
None of the above.

Guess you've never been to Turino, Italy. They built a huge cathedral dedicated to the shroud. And yes, people pray in front of it, light candles, kneel before the image (it hasn't been on display in decades), etc. I'm not saying the shroud is or isn't real. I agree with you that it has a facinating history, but some people do treat it as a venerated, holy object.

75 posted on 12/14/2011 2:40:47 PM PST by Hoffer Rand (There ARE two Americas: "God's children" and the tax payers)
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To: RnMomof7
Do you KNOW for certain that the man is Christ?

Do you KNOW for certain that it is NOT?! How many shrouds bearing images of a crucified man exist? How many shrouds exist of a crucified man with with scourge marks? The man of the Shroud was savagely flogged. Whatever was used, it is consistent with a Roman flagrum, a whip of short leather thongs tipped with bits of lead, bronze or bone which tore into flesh and muscle. There are dozens upon dozens of dumbbell shaped welts and contusions, the type of wound that the flagellum would have caused. There is blood from the flagellation and even a bit of tissue thought by some medical experts to be a torn-out bit of muscle. From the angles of attack – the way the marks fall on the man’s back, buttocks, and legs – it seems that man was whipped by two men, one taller than the other, who stood on either side of him.( John 19:1-2).

Anyone familiar with scripture can put the pieces of this puzzle together and recognize that the shroud image is unique and probably was created by Christ. ( Shroud Story ).

Ultimately, the shroud is not an object of worship but, rather, an image that reminds us of the ultimate sacrifice made by Christ, our Savior. As such, it merits our attention, reflection and introspective prayer of gratitude and appreciation. If anything, it is an object of the Greatest Love one can have for mankind.

76 posted on 12/14/2011 2:45:11 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: RnMomof7

Your comments are always a good reminder of what an ugly set of superstitions Protestantism is.


77 posted on 12/14/2011 2:54:10 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: RnMomof7

His word tells us to ask. ;-)


78 posted on 12/14/2011 3:12:06 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: RnMomof7

Oh, I thought you were Christian and since I identified myself as a Christian, I took that as a given that we both know the Scriptures affirm wisdom.

“Catholics love mysticism.. so this fits right into catholic (sic) beliefs..”

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by this.


79 posted on 12/14/2011 3:18:36 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: cloudmountain

The Body of Christ indeed!


80 posted on 12/14/2011 3:20:27 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: RnMomof7

Why would Satan want to call attention to Christ in this way?

After all, to merely think about the *possibility* of this shroud reminds one of the great suffering, death and power that MUST have been present at His resurrection.

It calls our attention to Christ all that much more.


81 posted on 12/14/2011 3:25:15 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: RnMomof7
Something new to bow down to and worship...Satan is really good at his job

Yes, indeed, Satan does inspire people to spout nonsense, such as the above!

82 posted on 12/14/2011 3:27:22 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: NYer

“Ultimately, the shroud is not an object of worship but, rather, an image that reminds us of the ultimate sacrifice made by Christ, our Savior. As such, it merits our attention, reflection and introspective prayer of gratitude and appreciation. If anything, it is an object of the Greatest Love one can have for mankind.”

Beautifully stated.


83 posted on 12/14/2011 3:33:57 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo...Sum Pro Vita. (Modified Decartes))
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To: NYer

But there are serious problems with the view that this is the burial cloth of Christ, even if we ignore carbon dating tests in 1988 that showed the cloth may be only 600 or 700 years old.

We admit that carbon dating can give crazy results, and carbon dating results from the shroud have brought major criticisms, so this is not proof of the shroud’s age. Even so, there are genuine problems with the view that this shroud shows a picture of Christ.

It is clear from the Bible and from Jewish burial customs that several pieces of cloth bound Christ at His burial — not one large sheet like the shroud.
In John 20:5-7 we find there was a separate piece wrapped around Christ’s head. Yet the Shroud of Turin depicts a face on the sheet.
In December 2009, archaeologists announced the discovery of a shroud-like cloth in a cave in Jerusalem that dated to the time of Christ. Unfortunately, it was made with a simple two-way weave — not the twill weave used on the Turin Shroud, which textile experts say was introduced more than 1000 years after Christ lived.
The size of the shroud is 14 feet 3 inches by 3 feet 7 inches (434 centimetres by 109 centimetres). But the Bible says linen strips bound Jesus, not an enormous cloth (see John 19:40).
The Bible is the authoritative record of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, and the Bible mentions nothing of a shroud.
Walter C. McCrone, head of a Chicago research institute and a specialist in authenticating art objects, examined the shroud. He found a pale, gelatin-based substance speckled with particles of red ochre on fibres from the part of the cloth that supposedly showed the figure of Christ. He also found that fibers from the “wounds” had stains, not of blood, but of particles of a synthetic vermilion developed in the Middle Ages. He said the practice of painting linen with gelatin-based temperas began in the late thirteenth century and was common in the fourteenth.
McCrone concluded that a fourteenth century artist had forged the shroud, and defended this view right up until he died on July 10, 2002.
In the 1980s, Jesuit priest Robert A. Wild expressed surprise that the bloodstains showed no trace of smearing after all the movement and transport the body would have endured. Wild also noted that the hands of the body masked the genitals. He said this couldn’t be right. No matter how you arrange a body after rigor mortis, he said, the hands cannot cover the genitals unless you prop up the elbows on the body and bind the hands tightly in place. Yet this is not what the shroud’s image shows.

Above: In the studio of composer Igor Stravinsky’s home stood a reproduction of the face from the Shroud of Turin among other icons and religious memorabilia. © Time Inc. 1959.

The first record of the shroud’s appearance was in 1353, when Geoffrey de Charny presented it to the small local church in the French town of Lirey. Three years later, in 1356, the bishop of the region wrote to the pope, in Latin, telling of his annoyance that certain people wanted this “painted” cloth displayed as the burial cloth of Christ. The bishop added that his predecessor, Henry of Poitiers, “after diligent inquiry and examination,” had found the artist who painted it. The artist testified that “it was the work of human skill and not miraculously wrought.”
Interestingly, this date accords with the carbon-14 tests, which dated the shroud to about the first quarter of the 1300s — although some information suggests that this is the date the cloth was repaired, and the repaired cloth was the part that was carbon-dated. The date agrees with art expert Walter McCrone’s estimate of the age based on known painting styles (see 6th point above).
The verses that tell of Joseph of Arimathea’s wrapping Jesus in linen cloth are Matthew 27:59, Mark 15:46, Luke 23:53, and John 19:40. Look in Vine’s Expository Dictionary, Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, and the Ryrie Study Bible. They all tell us the Greek words used in Matthew, Mark, and Luke (entulisso and eneileo) mean “to roll in, wind in”, “to twist, to entwine”, “to enwrap”, “to wrap by winding tightly”. Winding, twisting and entwining imply wrappings, or strips of bandage, rather than a single shroud.
But if they did mean a single sheet, then Matthew, Mark, and Luke would conflict with John 19:40, which is clearer by using the Greek word othonion, meaning “linen bandage” (Strong’s concordance). If the Bible writers had meant a single linen sheet like the shroud, the word used should have been othone (a single linen cloth, a sail, or a sheet). From this, it seems that all four Gospel writers were telling us that normal long strips of linen covered Jesus.
In 2005, N.D. Wilson, a fellow of literature at New St. Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho, showed it would have been easy for a medieval to create a 3-D photonegative. Wilson painted faces on glass, put the painted panes on linen, and left it in the sun for various lengths of time. The images Wilson produced look remarkably similar to the Shroud of Turin, although Wilson was the first to admit that this in itself did not disprove the Shroud’s authenticity.
The Catholic Church itself does not officially accept the shroud as authentic. When we last checked, in May 2008, the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on the Shroud of Turin admitted a number of reasons to doubt its authenticity. These included:
the awkward fact that many similar shrouds existed which their owners claimed showed the genuine image of Christ
a pope in the 1300s issued a pronouncement that when the shroud was exhibited, the priest must “declare in a loud voice that it was not the real shroud of Christ”
the admission that “no intelligible account, beyond wild conjecture, can be given of the previous history of the Shroud” before it appeared at Lirey around 1353
this shroud, like the others, “was probably painted without fraudulent intent to aid the dramatic setting” at Easter
witnesses in the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries said the image was then so vivid that the blood “seemed freshly shed.” But the blood is now dark and hardly recognizable.
On the supposition that this is an authentic relic dating from aroound the year AD 30, “why should it have retained its brilliance through countless journeys and changes of climate for fifteen centuries, and then in four centuries more have become almost invisible? On the other hand if it be a fabrication of the fifteenth century this is exactly what we should expect.”
Even if the Shroud of Turin proves to be 2000 years old — and it hasn’t — you can see there are strong arguments against its being Christ’s burial cloth.

Historical note: The Shroud of Turin has been kept since 1578 in a chapel at the Cathedral of San Giovanni Battista in Turin, Italy.

http://www.creationtips.com/shroud.html


84 posted on 12/14/2011 3:35:24 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: pgyanke; PaForBush
>> James 2:24 (KJV) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

How about let’s use the whole passage and not take a verse out of context.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It’s the faith that saves but the works produced by that faith are what proves what type of faith it is. If that were not so you would have to believe that Paul in the following passages was lying.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Do you believe Paul was lying?

85 posted on 12/14/2011 4:00:35 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: RnMomof7
It is clear from the Bible and from Jewish burial customs that several pieces of cloth bound Christ at His burial — not one large sheet like the shroud. In John 20:5-7 we find there was a separate piece wrapped around Christ’s head.

That would be the Sudarium of Oviedo. ALL of the points you raise are addressed at the link I posted. Here is another, more specifically dedicated to the Sudarium.

86 posted on 12/14/2011 4:28:31 PM PST by NYer ("Be kind to every person you meet. For every person is fighting a great battle." St. Ephraim)
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To: Oatka
How tall is the image of the man on the Shroud of Turin?

It is hard to know. Estimates generally range from 5'9" to 5'11".

One reason is that we don't know how flat the body is on the cloth. If the image is anatomically correct -- and it seems to be -- we know that the knees are bent and the head is tilted forward as though resting on a pillow (outside of the cloth).

Another reason is that we don't really know the size of the cloth at the time the image was formed. How much as it changed over the years due to stretching or shrinking? It has been held aloft, nailed up for display, rolled up, folded. It has been exposed to sunshine and dampness. It was seared in a fire that was doused with water. During a restoration effort in 2002 it was stretched with weights and steamed to remove wrinkles. By some estimates the length of the cloth was increased by eight centimeters during the restoration.

87 posted on 12/14/2011 4:45:03 PM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: NYer

Nice link. I hadn’t heard of the Sudarium of Oviedo before.


88 posted on 12/14/2011 4:59:22 PM PST by Hieronymus ( (It is terrible to contemplate how few politicians are hanged. --G.K. Chesterton))
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To: PaForBush
As a devout Christian, I rather agree with his position. Anything that takes our attention away from God himself is a distraction - often a temptation from Satan.

and what about those things that draw the attention of the non-believer? The things that lead them to investigate and seek answers.

89 posted on 12/14/2011 5:49:08 PM PST by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on television.)
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To: RnMomof7

You really seem to hate the Church or is it that you cannot believe that Christ was really resurrected?

So what if this is His shroud? Even if it isn’t, no one is worshipping this. If it is true, awesome. If not, still pretty amazing.


90 posted on 12/14/2011 6:50:06 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: RnMomof7

Yeah, bowing down to an image of Jesus is what the devil wants /s. Rather bow to the image of him in your head?


91 posted on 12/14/2011 6:54:30 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: SumProVita

***
If I kneel down in front of my bed to pray, does this mean I am worshiping my bed?
***

Why yes it does. And you better quit doing that. Idol worshipper you. ;-0)


92 posted on 12/14/2011 6:56:04 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: NYer; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; StrongandPround; lilyramone; crusadersoldier; Ellzeena; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


93 posted on 12/14/2011 6:57:34 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer

If it is not the burial cloth of Christ would that affect your salvation?

What eternal impact does a piece of cloth have on your eternity?


94 posted on 12/14/2011 7:17:19 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: NYer
Bumpus ad summum.

As noted in Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the "image" (Greek "eikon") of the invisible God.

Nicely put.

95 posted on 12/14/2011 7:24:59 PM PST by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: RnMomof7

You keep repeating your dogma, as if repetition made it true. But it simply boils down to this: I reject the Church, and so I must rely on the Bible as the source of my information. But so many Protestant teachings are not literally stated in the Scriptures, but are found rather in the Tradition they reject. So the rejection is not, after all, total.


96 posted on 12/14/2011 7:27:13 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: RnMomof7

I) The “details” in the Bible are fewer than the above supposes, the burial was quite hasty, and many factors govern the onset of rigor mortis.

2) The one thing that is certain: this is not a painted image. If you read the above. the thickness of the image is less than that of the “ink,” used to produce what you are reading here. If we cannot produce it, why think that a medieval artisan could?

I do not know what the exact truth of the Shroud, but since a central tenant of Christianity is that Jesus was a man unlike any other man, we ought not suppose his body was like any we have ever seen.


97 posted on 12/14/2011 7:38:41 PM PST by RobbyS
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To: CynicalBear
Posting the verses leading up to James 2:24 doesn't change the fact that it completely obliterates the Sola Fide argument.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

The key to understanding this is understanding the word "believe." Believe is an action word, not a passive word. If people believe it's important to eat right--but don't--the passive, inward beliefs profits them nothing. Just so with Christ. If we are to believe in Him, we are to do all that He has instructed us. Yet, the Protestants throw out what they don't understand just as some of Jesus's disciples did in John 6:27-68.

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Sadly, you stopped your bold printing three words too soon. That is where you fail. Just as in the rest of your quotes from Romans, St Paul is talking about Works of the Law, not works of charity (love). Clearing up the misunderstanding makes it possible for you to understand so much more: there will no longer be a conflict between St Paul and St James; you can understand how we are told multiple times that we will be rewarded for what we have done (Rom 2:5-8, 2 Cor 11:15, Col 3:24-25, 1 Peter 1:17, Rev 20:12-13); and you will understand how there is more than passive belief in following Christ (Matt 19:16-17).

Do you believe Paul was lying?

No. I believe you are wrong.

98 posted on 12/14/2011 7:39:08 PM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: RnMomof7
The Jews believed the golden calf represented God

Please try to find a bible and read it for once:

    Exodus 32:8 "They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, 'This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!' "
They didn't think the calf represented God. They thought the calf was a god. Nobody thinks the shroud is God or a god. So you've missed the mark once again.
99 posted on 12/14/2011 8:16:35 PM PST by Al Hitan (Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)
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To: pgyanke
>>If we are to believe in Him, we are to do all that He has instructed us.<<

You are to do? How pompous and arrogant. I can’t do anything without Him doing it through me. The best thing you ever did was still as a dirty rag to Him. I don’t do anything that pleases God. It’s Christ in me that does the doing as far as anything good is concerned.

>> Sadly, you stopped your bold printing three words too soon. That is where you fail.<<

Everything you call “works” or “what we must do” is legalistic and law. If you call it a command it becomes a legalistic requirement. Don’t play word games. If you claim it must be done it’s a law. It then is “works of law”.

>> we will be rewarded for what we have done<<

Good grief man. In Romans 2 he is talking to people who are being legalistic. Look at the beginning of the chapter. He starts out with “1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. He isn’t talking about how God judges us he’s talking about how they judge each other and have set up their legalistic approach to salvation. He’s rebuking the Romans. Read on in chapter 3.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

There you can see that he continued on to say that the Romans were being legalistic and goes on to say that the righteousness of God is without the law but is by faith.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Boasting that the works you do is excluded. Don’t try to put people back under the law of the RCC which Paul is clearly rebuking.

100 posted on 12/14/2011 8:47:19 PM PST by CynicalBear
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