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Are There Devout Christians In {non Church of Christ} Denominations?
Mabelvale Church of Christ ^ | 2008 | Mabelvale Church of Christ

Posted on 12/15/2011 10:14:12 AM PST by Cronos

Are There Devout Christians In Denominations?  John 10:16

     Sadly, many in our brotherhood would answer “yes” to this question.  Denominations have for years taught that it does not matter what church you attend, as long as a person is sincere and honest.  Many in the Lord’s church have swallowed this idea.  They cry long and hard that there are sincere, devout Christians in any given denomination.  It is no wonder, then, that many congregations of the Lord’s church have joined hands with denominational churches to promote or to participate in any number of things.  Of course, they consider their actions to have Biblical backing.  They proclaim the words of Jesus in defense of their endeavors: "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold” (Jn.10:16).  To them, “this fold” represents the Church of Christ (denominational concept of the Lord’s church), and the other sheep outside of “this fold” represent God’s children scattered among the denominations.  Does this interpretation have credence?  Is it the case that there are devout Christians in denominations?  The answer is no to both questions.
     The passage under consideration does not support the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations.  To the dismay of those who would espouse this soul-damning doctrine, this passage destroys their convoluted thinking.  There is no hint of such a doctrine taught in this passage, nor is it even possible that this passage could teach such.  The New Testament knows nothing of denominationalism.  In the first century, there was one church and only one church (Eph.4:4).  Although the seeds of denominationalism were being planted during the first century, these seeds did not bloom until after the close of New Testament times.  To claim that John 10:16 deals in any respect with denominationalism is to force a 21st century interpretation on a 1st century passage.
     The latter half of the verse under consideration inflicts even more damage upon the idea that there are devout Christians in denominations.  Christ proclaimed that the “other sheep” would be brought into “one fold” under the care of “one shepherd.”  This one fold is the one church!  And this one church is under the care of the Great Shepherd Jesus Christ!  Those in denominations follow the voice of Luther, or Calvin, or Wesley, or Pope John Paul II, but they are not following the voice of the Great Shepherd!  The other sheep to whom Jesus was referring were the Gentiles.  Though there were some Gentiles who sought God, and anticipated the coming of the Messiah, the Jews and Gentiles remained separated.  Through Christ’s death, he would bring both Jew and Gentile together in one body, one fold (Eph.2:14)!  The Lord’s church today is a fulfillment of John 10:16—both Jew and Gentile in one body under the care of the Great Shepherd.
     Are there devout Christians in denominations?  No.  Are there children of God in denominations?  Yes, but only because they chose to leave the safety of the one fold, the Lord’s church, to follow the doctrines and commandments of men.  Those who have done so must repent and return to the church of our Lord before it is eternally too late!        PM


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: churchofchrist; flamebait
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

“Can anyone give me the name of a CofC author who has penned a Standard Works reference book that all denominations consider to be trustworthy?”

Ruy—you might start with Everett Feguson, Jack Lewis, and James W. Thompson for starters.

But don’t let those scholars keep you with painting with the broadest of brushes. (Something, it appears, that the congregation in Mabelvale is also trying to do.)


51 posted on 12/15/2011 12:03:11 PM PST by SharpRightTurn ( White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: jagusafr

Yes the Church of Christ Congregations do not have instrumental music, the reason for this is that there is no example or instruction do so in the New Testament.

Hope that helps.

And as a rule the Church of Christ Congregations are conditioned non-denominational


52 posted on 12/15/2011 12:03:51 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: Cronos

I don’t get it. Are you referring to the Church of Christ as exemplified by a church in my neighborhood or are you speaking of the the so-called One True Church, the Roman Catholic Church? Are you also condemning non-Church of Christ members? You are not very clear. Also, do you consider yourself a Christian?


53 posted on 12/15/2011 12:04:34 PM PST by asa asa
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To: jagusafr

“I wish that were true; however, many Texas Southern Baptists have been taught from the pulpit that if you’re not SB you’re going to hell. C of C’ers believe if you’re not C of C, you’re going to hell. Wisconsin Synod Lutherans believe if you’re not WSL, you’re going to hell.”

I doubt you have ever a heard a Southern Baptist or Lutheran say that.


54 posted on 12/15/2011 12:05:44 PM PST by Augustinian monk
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To: Augustinian monk

As a member of Church oi Christ congregation for most of my life (25+ years)

I do not try to say who will or will not be saved, its not my job nor could I do it ! I just have the New Testament as the instructions as to how one may be saved.


55 posted on 12/15/2011 12:12:25 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: jagusafr
Wisconsin Synod Lutherans believe if you’re not WSL, you’re going to hell.

Really? Can you link to a statement by a LCWS official that says as much?

56 posted on 12/15/2011 12:16:52 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Natufian
Fixation?
 
The man is obsessed. He's been at it for hours.
 
Sleep deprivation is my guess.


57 posted on 12/15/2011 12:17:07 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: Bidimus1

True. But if those “instructions” go beyond repenting and believing the Gospel(that is that Jesus Christ’s death on the cross atoned for our sins) we are in danger of preaching a different Gospel as the Galatians were warned by the Apostle Paul.


58 posted on 12/15/2011 12:23:57 PM PST by Augustinian monk
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To: reaganaut

Sherman Logan is not on any Catholic list that I’ve seen.


59 posted on 12/15/2011 12:24:38 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: Augustinian monk

New Testament = Instructions in my statement.

No more no less.


60 posted on 12/15/2011 12:30:38 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: Cronos; Alex Murphy; asa asa; jagusafr; PetroniusMaximus; Bidimus1; Ruy Dias de Bivar; LearsFool; ..
I must accept the blame for this thread.
 
I've been engaging poor Cronos for hours. He got in way too deep and embarrassed himself and the Catholic Church here.
 
So he's taken his problems to this new thread.
 
Sorry.

61 posted on 12/15/2011 12:31:06 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS! This means liberals AND libertarians (same thing) NO LIBS!)
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To: SharpRightTurn

***Everett Feguson, Jack Lewis, and James W. Thompson for starters.***

Strange. I’ve heard of VINE’S, Thayer, Zodhiates, Perschbacher, STRONG’S, Vincent’s word studies but not these you mentioned.


62 posted on 12/15/2011 12:33:04 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Bidimus1

***...the reason for this is that there is no example or instruction do so in the New Testament.***

Yet there is plenty in the OT. Psalm 150 immediately comes to mind.


63 posted on 12/15/2011 12:36:49 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

“Strange. I’ve heard of VINE’S, Thayer, Zodhiates, Perschbacher, STRONG’S, Vincent’s word studies but not these you mentioned.”

Then you may want to do some more research.


64 posted on 12/15/2011 12:40:16 PM PST by SharpRightTurn ( White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

No disagreement there are many things people were instructed to do in the Old Testament that are not in the New Testament.


65 posted on 12/15/2011 12:41:19 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: Responsibility2nd
I must accept the blame for this thread. I've been engaging poor Cronos for hours.
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents...?"
Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”
-- John 9:2a-3

66 posted on 12/15/2011 12:42:53 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Sherman Logan

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

LLS


67 posted on 12/15/2011 12:43:08 PM PST by LibLieSlayer ("Americans are hungry to feel once again a sense of mission and greatness." Ronaldo Magnus)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

You will find animal sacrifices in the Old Testament also. Different time, different covenant. Churches of Christ attempt to follow the New Testament as a guide for their beliefs and practices.


68 posted on 12/15/2011 12:45:07 PM PST by Lucas McCain (The day may come when the courage of men will fail, but not this day.)
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To: Sherman Logan

“But what about all those discussions by Paul of how Christians should be of one mind and expel from their midst those advocating false doctrines?”

“If Christians are to implement these scriptural instructions, they can’t be believing a whole bunch of different things.”

As the history of Christianity has shown, it can SOMETIMES be a fine line between what one claims as “false” doctrine and honest but theologically different viewpoints.


69 posted on 12/15/2011 12:55:04 PM PST by Wuli
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To: inkdude

If you have been studying the church of Christ for 20 years you must be working with an extraordinarily small sample size. There is no central organization so there is a tremendous amount of variation.


70 posted on 12/15/2011 12:56:35 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: Lucas McCain

***You will find animal sacrifices in the Old Testament also. Different time, different covenant.***

The validity of animal sacrifices ceased at the cross. They were still being performed for a time afterward. St Paul was told to offer one in the Temple by James.


71 posted on 12/15/2011 12:56:40 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: LibLieSlayer

I presume you realize the two quotes appear to contradict each other.

The first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter. Presumably any other group of Christians is not included and is therefore a false church. (Discuss amongst yourselves which church is founded upon Peter.)

The second indicates that Christ is there where ANY group gathers in his name. This would therefore include ALL the groups discussed on this thread, including Mormons, JWs, Protestants, Disciples of Christ, Catholics, Orthodox, etc.


72 posted on 12/15/2011 1:00:12 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“They do not believe their’s is the only true denomination, they believe that Christ set up one true Church, and their’s is it.”

I am sorry but most “Protestants” - Methodists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, UCC and the like DO NOT believe that “their” church is the “one true Church”.

They accept that most of their doctrinal differences are less than what they hold in common belief, even while they prefer to practice their Christian beliefs in the framework of their own denominations; and they do not - most of them - hold that someone is NOT in the “body of Christ” just because they are part of another denomination.


73 posted on 12/15/2011 1:05:54 PM PST by Wuli
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To: SharpRightTurn

“I have enough problems worrying about myself to police others........”

“I’m well-content to let the Lord sort it all out.”

Well said - and HE will.


74 posted on 12/15/2011 1:14:49 PM PST by Wuli
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To: Wuli
Each of these groups ... that claims the others have "fallen away" from Christ's original teachings believes that theirs is the only true way.

Some groups commonly classified as Protestant do indeed believe this.

I am not trying to say that every Protestant group, or even most, believe this. Only those Protestant churches which claim the others have fallen away.

One common definition, perhaps the most commonly used, for Protestant is all "Christian" groups other than Catholic, Orthodox and those groups such as Mormons and JWs which explicitly exclude themselves from the Protestant grouping.

75 posted on 12/15/2011 1:23:42 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: reaganaut
Something that intrigues me is that at least 3 of these groups (LDS, JW, SDA) were founded in NY within about 60 years and 100 miles of each other.

Demons have locality. They all got the same messenger.

76 posted on 12/15/2011 1:27:08 PM PST by Waywardson (Carry on! Nothing equals the splendor!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I’m not arguing with that. Just pointing out the rationale for a Christian finding his/her belief and practice in the New Testament rather than the Old. One does not find teaching or example in the NT for using musical instruments. That is why there is no example in history for any Christians using instruments until about 600 yrs after the beginning of the church. Most churches of Christ sing “acapella” which loosly translates “in the style of the church or chapel.”


77 posted on 12/15/2011 1:28:33 PM PST by Lucas McCain (The day may come when the courage of men will fail, but not this day.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Nope. Just the people I know who are members. If that’s not doctrine, somebody is misleading a lot of people in that denomination. The people I know who are WSL refuse to attend any other church and refuse communion to non-WSL visitors. Their actions drown out any doctrinal words.


78 posted on 12/15/2011 1:37:33 PM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: Bidimus1

“The “boston movement” or IOCC is far removed from Church of Christ Congregational movement.”

One came out of the other and they have significant doctrinal similarities.


79 posted on 12/15/2011 1:38:22 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Augustinian monk

Unfortunately, I have. From the Baptist Student Union people at UT Austin to the baptists in Brady, Texas to those here in San Antonio, I have heard it over and over again. The Wisconsin Synod Lutherans I know who visit their family in San Antonio refuse to attend church with their “apostate” family members because it’s not “real” Christianity.

I wish it were different, but this is personal experience. You should hear what they say when they learn I’m a Christian who attends a Methodist church!


80 posted on 12/15/2011 1:42:12 PM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Agreed - I’m not sure how it gets into their heads, but most say, “Our preacher says only the Baptists will go to heaven and everybody else is in error.” That’s most Texas Baptists I know.


81 posted on 12/15/2011 1:44:13 PM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: Sherman Logan

“he first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter”

The statement peter makes is what the Church is founded on not Peter himself.

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it”


82 posted on 12/15/2011 1:48:04 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: Sherman Logan
I see no such contradiction... you do... all that I see are the words of the SON of GOD.

LLS

83 posted on 12/15/2011 1:55:32 PM PST by LibLieSlayer ("Americans are hungry to feel once again a sense of mission and greatness." Ronaldo Magnus)
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To: Sherman Logan
Presumably you, like most, would exclude some of these groups from the name "Christian." So what is the objective measure you use to draw the line? You claim there is no line, but I suspect you have one, though you might draw it in a different place than the author of the article above.

The measure is Christ. What do they say about Him and what do they say He did about Sin? If they say He is not unique and not God can I say they are a Christian Denomination? No. If they say there is no such thing as Sin? Heaven's no.

Without those, they would be a Cult. But who would I be to say that none of the elect of God within them would not go to Heaven? Do I recommend them No. Do I say there will not be trouble, No. But who would I be to deny God?

84 posted on 12/15/2011 2:00:06 PM PST by sr4402
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To: Sherman Logan

“The first indicates that the true Church will be that founded upon Peter.”

That interpretation is a misreading and achieved by taking one part of the text out of the context of what precedes it, in the whole conversation Jesus is having with the disciples.

The whole begins with:

Matthew 16:13 - And when they came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked his disciples saying, “Who do men say that I the Son of Man am?”

Matthew 16:14 - So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, some Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

Matthew 16:15 - He said to them, “But who do you say that I am.”

Matthew 16:16 - And Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”

Matthew 16:17 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in Heaven.”

Matthew 16:18 - “And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

In the original Greek it is clear that the text is using a play on words with “the rock” and Peter’s name.

And “the rock” that Jesus is referring to?

It is not Peter, it is Peter’s answer: that Jesus is the Christ.

THAT - Peter’s answer - is “the rock” upon which he will build His church. He blesses Peter for His Father having revealed that answer to Peter.

Jesus then goes on to tell the disciples to not reveal this knowledge - “this rock” of His church (that He is the Christ) to others, for the time for that had not yet come.


85 posted on 12/15/2011 2:01:02 PM PST by Wuli
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To: jagusafr

That The Wisconsin Synod doesn’t allow non-members to receive Communion hardly equates to a doctrine that non-members are all going to Hell.


86 posted on 12/15/2011 2:03:21 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: jagusafr

That The Wisconsin Synod doesn’t allow non-members to receive Communion hardly equates to a doctrine that non-members are all going to Hell.


87 posted on 12/15/2011 2:03:33 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: sr4402

Thanks. That’s two criteria you use to draw your line.

I have no dog in this fight. Draw your line wherever you choose. I just get a little bit stressed by those who claim they don’t have a line when they do.

But please note that Christ did not say, “Wherever two or three gather together in my name as long as they agree with sr4402 as to my divinity and the nature of sin.”


88 posted on 12/15/2011 2:15:45 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: reaganaut

But! Church of Christ make great neighbors as they believe that they must work out their salvation.


89 posted on 12/15/2011 2:15:49 PM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Sherman Logan

“I am not trying to say that every Protestant group, or even most, believe this. Only those Protestant churches which claim the others have fallen away.”

By your own understanding, “Protestant” refers to a large number of groups and denominations, and so, in what you think “Protestants” believe, a very easy word - “some” placed just before “Protestants”, would make for more truthful statements as to what “Protestants” believe (or not).


90 posted on 12/15/2011 2:23:06 PM PST by Wuli
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To: Mr. Lucky

Using the term “apostate” to refer to members who leave their church does. It’s pretty much the definition of “You’re going to hell”. Please understand: I don’t think they are, because they profess Christ and acknowledge the Triune God; they think I am, despite the fact that I profess Christ and acknowledge the Triune God. That saddens me.


91 posted on 12/15/2011 2:24:46 PM PST by jagusafr ("We hold these truths to be self-evident...")
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To: Bidimus1
So since I am both a birthright and convinced Quaker, I guess I'm ok by your definition? I've had personal experience with the CoC, and I do not believe they have any lock on Christianity IMHO.
92 posted on 12/15/2011 2:29:42 PM PST by Woodman
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To: Woodman

I have not studied the Quaker doctrines in detail Friend.

All I can say is that if one follows the New Testament it says that they will be saved.


93 posted on 12/15/2011 2:40:51 PM PST by Bidimus1
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To: Augustinian monk

i guess Peter was preaching another gospel when he gave “instructions” in Acts 2:38.

for that matter St Augustine must have been following another gospel as well.


94 posted on 12/15/2011 2:53:39 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: jagusafr
Nope. Just the people I know who are members. If that’s not doctrine, somebody is misleading a lot of people in that denomination. The people I know who are WSL refuse to attend any other church and refuse communion to non-WSL visitors. Their actions drown out any doctrinal words.

Do you know "a lot of people in that denomination" from which to draw that conclusion? Or are you just extrapolating based on the handful you actually know?


95 posted on 12/15/2011 3:18:04 PM PST by Alex Murphy (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2703506/posts?page=518#518)
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To: Coldwater Creek
But! Church of Christ make great neighbors as they believe that they must work out their salvation

Oddly enough, quoting scripture....

Philippians 2:12 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

96 posted on 12/15/2011 3:23:53 PM PST by JOAT
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To: Bidimus1

“All I can say is that if one follows the New Testament it says that they will be saved.”

That pretty much sums up the feelings of most reasonably educated members of the churches of Christ. What others don’t get about it is that this principle extends not only to theology but to practice. Such things as what they call themselves. Members of the churches of Christ call themselves Christians because that, according to the Bible, is what disciples were called in the first century. They weren’t called Lutherans, or Methodists, of Southern Baptists, or any other name somebody dreamed up.


97 posted on 12/15/2011 3:28:22 PM PST by Lucas McCain (The day may come when the courage of men will fail, but not this day.)
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To: don-o
Something that intrigues me is that at least 3 of these groups (LDS, JW, SDA) were founded in NY within about 60 years and 100 miles of each other.

I seem to recall someone calling that area "burned over district" - I think from the fact of previous religious awakenings. Have you seen reference to that?

The burned over district came after the excitements of Charles Finney and the "Second Great Awakening". All manner of oddities resulted. I think the "mind science" cults have roots then and there as well.

I've heard some opine that we'll see another burned over district, where we now have the Bible Belt.

98 posted on 12/15/2011 3:35:24 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("Do not feed the Harpies")
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To: SharpRightTurn
The churches of Christ seek to be guided in their faith and practice by the teachings of Christ and the apostles and deem the New Testament scriptures to be sufficient for that purpose without binding the extrabiblical writings of mankind.

Would CoC members affirm the content of the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed? What statements, if any, would be denied?

99 posted on 12/15/2011 4:04:25 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("Do not feed the Harpies")
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To: OrangeHoof
It grieves me to see people who try to limit God’s impact to their own clique

I find it hard to believe that people don't find denominationalism sinful. Jesus prayed for the unity of the church.

If you accept this concept the remediation is to acknowledge that the church belongs to God and it is not ours to carve up or redefine. That is the reason the congregations of the church of Christ take the positionthey do on denominations.

100 posted on 12/15/2011 4:06:31 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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