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Christians and alcoholic beverages.

Posted on 12/19/2011 9:39:11 PM PST by LouAvul

The church I belong to, some drink alcoholic beverages and some don't. It's apparantly one of those things that if you do, you just don't discuss it. Our former minister (he later told me) actually made his own wine. But he only told me that after he quit making his own wine.

Throughout the Patriarchal and Mosaical Ages God approved of alcohol consumption. He even recommended it (if you believe the Bible to be inspired). For example, Deuteronomy 14:26. Or, Proverbs 31:6.

The prohibition in the Old Testament is concerning drunkenness. (Cf Proverbs 23:29ff)

Jesus lived during the Mosaical Age, so it's logical to assume he drank alcoholic beverages. It was a perfectly natural thing.

In the New Testament, there is no condemnation of alcohol consumption. There is, however, condemnation of drunkenness. Again, anybody who has spent much time around drunks knows the difference.

Anyway, the reason I ask your opinion is because I always assumed it was condemned in the Bible. I think I may have been wrong. What do you think?


TOPICS: Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic
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To: svcw

Bingo!


51 posted on 12/20/2011 1:53:18 AM PST by StayoutdaBushesWay (Every man dies, but not every man really lives.)
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To: abishai

Agreed! Especially “....for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” (Rom. 14:23)

Our focus as Christians (followers of Christ) is to please Him; not our selves!

“Whatsoever ye do, do it heartly as unto the Lord.”

The Lord Jesus said: “He said unto them all, If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.” (Luke 9:23)

We know drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God: (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)....and all liars and unbelievers .....
shall have their part in the lake of fire....”(Revelation 21:8)

And I love : “If ye be risen with Christ, seek those things that are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.....” (Colossians 3:1-4)

And our Lord Jesus taught: “But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness.....” (Matthew 6:33)


52 posted on 12/20/2011 3:00:58 AM PST by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: dangus

“The Catholics wave to each other”.

LOL!


53 posted on 12/20/2011 3:13:18 AM PST by momtothree
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To: LouAvul

54 posted on 12/20/2011 3:52:15 AM PST by Notwithstanding (1998 ACU ratings: Newt=100%, Paul=88%, Santorum=84% [the last year all were in Congress])
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To: Barnacle

Wow - that guy knows how to party!


55 posted on 12/20/2011 4:03:36 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: LouAvul
I always assumed it was condemned in the Bible.

Not in the Bible, just by the Bible thumpers who want to control what a person does on Sunday.
56 posted on 12/20/2011 4:07:29 AM PST by John D
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To: raygun
Where did I say that?
57 posted on 12/20/2011 4:12:36 AM PST by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: the OlLine Rebel
“Parties” have become nothing more than drunken orgies, period, with nothing else to do.

You must live in a rather interesting neighbourhood.

58 posted on 12/20/2011 4:36:50 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: miele man
Anytime you find four Episcopalians, you will always find a fifth.

Applause.

59 posted on 12/20/2011 4:40:01 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: LouAvul

One other angle to consider, in the time of Christ, if you wanted to preserve the nutritional value of fresh fruit after harvest, wine was a means for doing so, perhaps the only way. No bacteria can survive proper fermentation.

I’ve seen hints of this reality in my lifetime (50yo.) My grandparents always had an abundance of fresh fruits and nuts during the Holidays. At all other times of year, fruits were only served canned or preserved as there was no source for fresh fruit. In the fall, nuts were painstakingly hulled by hand, roasted and canned for only the most special occasions. Nuts were scarce because they were so much work (and the squirrels so much more skilled.)


60 posted on 12/20/2011 4:53:47 AM PST by IamConservative ("The ability to speak eloquently is not to be confused with having something to say." - MP Hart)
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To: LouAvul

This is a great thread...I’ve often debated this topic. I’m in agreement with a lot of the others here in that consuming alcohol in moderation isn’t a sin, but drunkenness is. I had an easier time with this topic when I lived in the Northeast surrounded by Catholics, then when I moved to the south and was surrounded by Southern Baptists.

The hypocricy made me laugh. They condemned any use of alcohol whatsoever, regardless of context...but boy, you should see the gluttonous way they’d lay into church buffets...lol. Then there’s the rank idolatry of college basketball, but that’s another topic for another time.

I enjoy the company of my Lutheran and Presbyterian friends who aren’t so closed-minded to the issue.


61 posted on 12/20/2011 5:52:03 AM PST by ItsOurTimeNow ("Go now. Run along and tell your Xerxes that he faces Free Men here...not slaves.")
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To: LouAvul

Beer is God’s way of telling us he loves us.


62 posted on 12/20/2011 7:05:59 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

...and wants us to be happy.


63 posted on 12/20/2011 7:19:45 AM PST by abishai
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To: LouAvul

How can you tell a Baptist from a Catholic? The Catholic will wave at you in the liquor store.

Why do you take two Baptists fishing? If you take only one, he’ll drink all your beer.

:-)

Nothing wrong with liquor. Abusing it is the problem.


64 posted on 12/20/2011 7:25:44 AM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: Yosemitest
In the New Testament, one original Greek word for wine is oinos.

There are other words used ... For example ... Acts 2:13 uses γλευκους for "new wine" or "sweet wine" ... and 2:15 makes it clear it was not grape juice.

Jesus also used the phrase "fruit/produce of the vine" ... γεννηματος της αμπελου.

I suppose one could argue that there is nothing in the text of Jesus' statement in Matt 26 that demands fermentation; but Acts 2 seems clear.

Also, I recall notes from a lecture that mentioned the Jews DID have ways to prevent fermentation of grape juice.

65 posted on 12/20/2011 7:59:02 AM PST by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: BereanBrain

Prior to the 19th century, there wasn’t such a thing as unfermented grape juice until Thomas Bramwell Welch invented a process for keeping it from fermenting into wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grape_juice


66 posted on 12/20/2011 8:02:56 AM PST by rzman21
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To: dartuser
Without a link proving that was possible, I wouldn't believe it.
67 posted on 12/20/2011 8:23:29 AM PST by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: dartuser
Also, I recall notes from a lecture that mentioned the Jews DID have ways to prevent fermentation of grape juice.

You bet. They drank it immediately. Grape juice in a warm environment will start fermenting within a couple of days. Native yeasts cover the grapes as they are growing, and they stay during pressing. Even more are present in the air on the wind. No getting rid of them.

Same thing with cheese. Milk spoils. Cheese keeps for much longer.

68 posted on 12/20/2011 8:34:00 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: al_c
How can you tell a Baptist from a Catholic? The Catholic will wave at you in the liquor store. Why do you take two Baptists fishing? If you take only one, he’ll drink all your beer.

Along the same lines: Why don't Baptists make love standing up? They are afraid someone will see them and think they are dancing.

69 posted on 12/20/2011 8:38:36 AM PST by lawdave
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To: Yosemitest
Without a link proving that was possible, I wouldn't believe it.

Start here ... there are many others ...

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/wine_in_the_bible/3.html

70 posted on 12/20/2011 8:43:19 AM PST by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: SonofReagan

LOL GOOD ONE


71 posted on 12/20/2011 9:03:37 AM PST by Moleman
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To: ItsOurTimeNow
They condemned any use of alcohol whatsoever, regardless of context...but boy, you should see the gluttonous way they’d lay into church buffets...lol.

And there is never a church door without about 10-15 smoking.
72 posted on 12/20/2011 9:19:45 AM PST by John D
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To: PieterCasparzen

“It is very important to not interpret the Bible as to add to Biblical law, to create additional laws of our own devices and present them as divinely inspired. It never works out well. Teaching elders have a duty to preach the true Gospel, all elders have the duty to use Church discipline in cases of heresy and the whole Church has a duty to stand against sin and testify to the Gospel.”

BUMP.

Well said. And I would add not only should we not add to Biblical law, we should not take away from it.


73 posted on 12/20/2011 9:36:31 AM PST by SharpRightTurn ( White, black, and red all over--America's affirmative action, metrosexual president.)
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To: svcw
You were wrong. Drunkenness is the issue. Not alcohol.

Alcohol leads to drunkenness...And who's to say when you're drunk???

I'm thinking when a person starts to get even a slight buzz, drunkenness has started...That's when you laugh a little easier...Look at things in a little different light than before you started the drinking...

Here's what God has to say about it...

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Pro 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Pro 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Pro 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Pro 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Pro 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Pro 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Alcohol won't send you to hell but God warns against drinking it...And one last thing...

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

If someone sees you with a drink in your hand, how are they going to tell the difference between you and an unsaved drunk walking out of a bar???

74 posted on 12/20/2011 10:43:40 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: BereanBrain
For those who don’t think so, remember when the comment was made about “saving the good wine for last”? It would make no difference if ti were not fermented.

Sure it would...Grape juice turns to vinegar before it turns to wine...

75 posted on 12/20/2011 10:46:36 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool; BereanBrain

During these serious and troubled times, people of all faiths should remember
these four great religious truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God’s Chosen People.
2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
3.Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.
4. Baptists do not recognize each other at the liquor store.

Pray for ‘em!


76 posted on 12/20/2011 10:49:39 AM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a tea party descendant - steeped in the Constitutional legacy handed down by the Founders)
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To: Iscool

Oh good grief. Jesus served wine at the last supper. Jesus turned water to wine.
The issue is drunkenous not alcohol.
If it is an issue for you don’t drink. I for one will have a glass of wine with my dinner and thank God for the knowledge of wine making.


77 posted on 12/20/2011 10:56:45 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

#4 Very funny. A Presbyterian friend of mine always says “when four of us are gathered there will be a fifth, sooner or later”.


78 posted on 12/20/2011 11:01:50 AM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: LouAvul

Jesus turned water into wine. Does that sound like condemnation to you?

Until the advent of easily accessible, SAFE, potable water, alcoholic beverages were the only thing actually SAFE to drink. There are still a lot of countries where your only safe choices come out of a bottle.

Drunkeness is a bad behavior. Alcohol is simply a useful chemical.


79 posted on 12/20/2011 11:09:44 AM PST by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: SonofReagan

God to my knowledge never condemned the consumption of Alcohol, in fact, Christ himself turned water into wine explicitely for consumption.. .shared wine at the last supper etc etc etc.

There is no explicite prohibition, particularly from Christ on the consumption of alcohol. Obviously being a drunk isn’t good for you, but alcoholic consumption was never condemned as immorral by Christ.


80 posted on 12/20/2011 11:13:56 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: PieterCasparzen
There are so many things wrong with your post, I'm not sure where to begin.

1) Man was given dominion over the earth and authority to make laws. There is no scriptural law that we must drink alcohol, so a human law prohibiting alcohol is not contrary to God's law or scripture. So your whole argument about heresy and false teachings are completely irrelevant.

2) Your third paragraph makes it sound like you believe you can lose your salvation. That's not the case. You can cause God to chastise you, but once you claim that promise, your salvation depends on God and God alone. By Grace are ye saved and not by works. That's why Paul is able to save "Neither life nor death nor...etc...can separate us from the Love of God." Paul is not worried about screwing up.

3) Although the liberal Hollywood and media have chosen to focus on the rise in organized crime, the truth is that many wonderful things also happened during the prohibition era. Church attendance per capita reached an all time high. Hospital admissions dropped by over half. Mental Hospital admissions dropped by over 3/4's. The period was known as "the roaring 20's", a phenomenal economic explosion took place. You're only getting half the story on the prohibition era, you should educate yourself sometime.

4) Your argument that "the only way sinful behavior is constrained is when a person is born again" is clearly false. We have many laws that are quite effective at restraining sinful behavior. Example: Laws against polygamy have practically ended the practice. Laws against murder or theft restrain many people but not all people. You seem to be confusing a person's sinful state with sinful behavior. Behavior can certain be constrained and deterred by human laws. A person's sinful state before God is only dealt with by being forgiven but specific behaviors can certainly be deterred by man's laws.

81 posted on 12/20/2011 11:19:01 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: LouAvul

“I always assumed it was condemned in the Bible. I think I may have been wrong. What do you think?”

It isn’t condemned in the Bible. Few things are explicitly condemned or forbidden in the New Testament — the Age of Grace. “1 Corinthians 10:23-29; (KJV) All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient” Personal soul liberty is something each person needs to draw upon on a case-by-case basis. If what you do may ruin your witness or your health, then it’s wrong.


82 posted on 12/20/2011 11:21:01 AM PST by MayflowerMadam
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To: LouAvul
Drinking ok; drunkenness not ok. Eating ok, gluttony not ok.

Simple, Christians have made this way too complicated.

83 posted on 12/20/2011 11:25:37 AM PST by HereInTheHeartland (I love how the FR spellchecker doesn't recognize the word "Obama")
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To: Iscool; svcw
I'm thinking when a person starts to get even a slight buzz, drunkenness has started

That's like saying, "If it takes you ten drinks to get drunk, you're one tenth drunk." Therefore, you're implying that one tenth drunk is sin.

But there's no such thing as one tenth sin. It's either sin or it isn't. If you're right, then Jesus Himself was guilty of sin. So were the apostles. God recommended alcohol. (Deut 14:29; Prov. 31) Was He guilty of sin?

By your logic it's sin for me to eat a Big Mac. Here's why. If I got really hungry and ate 10 Big Macs, I'd be guilty of the sin of gluttony. If I eat one Big Mac, I'm a one tenth glutton which, by your logic, is sin.

Your logic may be, well, illogical.

84 posted on 12/20/2011 11:34:19 AM PST by LouAvul
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To: dartuser; Yosemitest
I recall notes from a lecture that mentioned the Jews DID have ways to prevent fermentation of grape juice.

That's irrelevant to our discussion. The fact is that they drank alcoholic beverages. What they could or couldn't do is immaterial. They even occasionally got intoxicated. Remember Noah? How about Lot?

God endorsed consumption of alcoholic beverages. (Deut 14:26; Prov. 31)

The whole point of the discussion is that righteous men drank alcoholic beverages, righteously.

85 posted on 12/20/2011 11:41:08 AM PST by LouAvul
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To: Iscool; svcw
And your references from Proverbs 20 and 23. Do you know what drunkenness is? Solomon is describing drunkenness and he pretty much nails it. I was around drunks pretty much all the time for my first 20 years of life. They live for the drink. They get drunk. They keep drinking all day long to stay drunk. Hallucinations. Hangovers.

Drinking in moderation has nothing to do with that. It's as different as eating a snack and gluttony.

86 posted on 12/20/2011 11:47:54 AM PST by LouAvul
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To: PieterCasparzen
but none that prohibit alchohol for laymen or deacons, only elders.

Actually, that's incorrect. 1 Tim 3:6 refers to deacons and says, "not given to much wine." KJV. They're not forbidden from drinking. They're forbidden from drinking much wine.

As far as elders, the Greek actually says he must not "stay near wine." A drunkard will "stay near booze" so as to stay drunk. "Staying near wine" is actually how Strong's Greek/Hebrew Dictionary translates it.

Sometimes we get distracted by erroneous, but well meaning, translations. Sort of like the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 in the KJV. (The word is actually "passover," not Easter.)

87 posted on 12/20/2011 12:04:58 PM PST by LouAvul
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To: LouAvul

Legalism is as bad as drunkenness.
Good post.


88 posted on 12/20/2011 12:14:37 PM PST by svcw (God's Grace - thank you!)
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To: Iscool
If someone sees you with a drink in your hand, how are they going to tell the difference between you and an unsaved drunk walking out of a bar???

Well duh - a drunk finishes their drink; doesn't walk around nursing it

89 posted on 12/20/2011 1:01:46 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Iscool
If someone sees you with a drink in your hand, how are they going to tell the difference between you and an unsaved drunk walking out of a bar???

I'll be wearing a name tag.

90 posted on 12/20/2011 1:05:25 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido

Make sure it isn’t that one that reads “HELLO my name is Broster Fooks”


91 posted on 12/20/2011 1:16:20 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: Hegewisch Dupa

:-)


92 posted on 12/20/2011 1:17:30 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea
Would not prohibition be for hibitions?
93 posted on 12/20/2011 1:38:03 PM PST by dmz
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To: dmz

Hmmm...probably you are correct...


94 posted on 12/20/2011 1:43:59 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a tea party descendant - steeped in the Constitutional legacy handed down by the Founders)
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To: dmz

Ha!


95 posted on 12/20/2011 1:48:42 PM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: LouAvul
I'm not an authority on this, but I don't believe God the Father has ever drank wine. I know, through the Scriptures, that God the Son has. Plus, the Lord Jesus has also eaten lamb, fish, and probably fowl too (peta dig).

The Lord also said, before His Ascension, that when he comes back he will partake in the fruit of the vine, again.

Drunkenness, slothfulness, etc. you should/shall avoid.

Hope that helps.

5.56mm

96 posted on 12/20/2011 2:04:32 PM PST by M Kehoe
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To: Stegall Tx

Grape juice or not, “Ouinos” meant fermented, unless used in the context of “Neos Ouinos” (”new wine”), called “new” because it had not yet had the chance to ferment.


97 posted on 12/20/2011 2:20:19 PM PST by dangus
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To: Yosemitest; raygun

>> “what I will dispute is that the Lord’s Supper “require” wine.” <<
> Where did I say that? <

I will. Come on; it’s bad enough (literally: it IS bad enough to be utterly useless) that people believe that the wine only symbolizes the blood of Christ... now you want grape juice to symbolize wine? In exactly what way does sipping grape juice from privately dispensed cups even resemble the Lord’s Supper?

Certain Protestants I’ve seen... they don’t believe it’s the body and blood of Christ (”Unless you eat of my body and drink of my blood, you shall have no life within you”), they don’t share of one cup (”He took the cup, gave thanks, and said, ‘drink ye, all of it’”), but instead they have all these little, seperate, plastic cups, they don’t read the paschal prayers, and now they don’t want to drink wine?


98 posted on 12/20/2011 2:39:45 PM PST by dangus
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To: Iscool

if you think the process is juice—>vinegar—>wine you obviously don’t know how the process works. Wine vinegar is what happens if fermentations continues too long.


99 posted on 12/20/2011 3:41:43 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: LouAvul
That's like saying, "If it takes you ten drinks to get drunk, you're one tenth drunk." Therefore, you're implying that one tenth drunk is sin.

And you are implying that 7/8 drunk is ok??? And like I said, who determines when you are drunk???

I could weave all over the road in my car and still be sober, according to me...

The verses I posted showed the results of drinking alcohol...The picture painted does not put consuming alcohol in a good light...

100 posted on 12/20/2011 5:04:35 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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