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The mystery of 666 Explained - Nero! {Ecumenical thread}
ecclesia.org ^ | 2009 | Richard Anthony

Posted on 12/22/2011 1:01:18 PM PST by Cronos

Apocalypse 13:16-18 is based on Ezekiel 8 and 9. The "mark" symbolized the spiritual condition of the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The ones with the "mark" were in allegiance with God. However, in Apocalypse, the mark is reversed. That is to say, the mark was on those who were against God and had allegiance to the "beast."

John wrote that the number "is the number of a man's name; and his number is 666." This tells us that those who received the "mark" were actually in allegiance with a "man," an actually person of the first century. So, who was he? Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus! Better known as Nero Caesar.

John used a puzzle called gematria in which numbers are used to represent certain letters. John used this puzzle to reveal Nero without actually writing down his name. Remember, the early churches were being persecuted during this time—not only from the Jews, but also from the Romans. The numerical values of the Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are:

Nero's Name

Nero Caesar fits the gematria code number "666." Using this code, his name would be rendered as "NRWN QSR." (NRWN QSR). The number values are:

N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200

which, when added together, equals 666. The fact that Nero fits the description of the "beast" is well documented. According to Suetonius, he murdered his parents, wife, brother, aunt, and many others close to him and of high station in Rome. He was a torturer, a homosexual rapist, and a sodomite. He even married two young boys and paraded them around as his wives. One of the boys, whose name was Sporus, was castrated by Nero. He was truly bestial in his character, depravity, and actions. He devised a kind of game: covered with the skin of some wild animal, he was let loose from a cage and attacked the private parts of men and women, who were bound at stakes. He also initiated the war against the Jews which led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD..

Nero’s persecution, which was initiated in A.D.64, was the first ever Roman assault on Christianity. Roman historian Tacitus (A.D. 56-117) spoke of Nero's "cruel nature" that "put to death so many innocent men." He records the scene in Rome when the persecution of Christians broke out: "And their death was aggravated with mockeries, insomuch that, wrapped in the hides of wild beasts, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or fastened to crosses to be set on fire, that when the darkness fell they might be burned to illuminate the night." Christians were crucified, beheaded, burnt alive, and used as torches to light the palace gardens. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. St. John’s banishment to Patmos (where he wrote the book of Apocalypse) was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. The apostle Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. The apostle Peter, who was crucified upside down, was another victim of Nero, .

As Church father Eusebius notes: "Nero was the first of the emperors who showed himself an enemy of the divine religion." Sulpicius Severus concurs: "He first attempted to abolish the name of Christian." In his Annals, Roman historian Tacitus points to those who were persecuted as "those who . . . were vulgarly called Christians." Roman historian Suetonius concurs, for in a list of the few "positive" contributions of Nero as emperor, he includes the fact that Nero persecuted Christians: "During his reign many abuses were severely punished and put down, and no fewer new laws were made:. . . . Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition."

Noted church historian J. L. von Mosheim wrote of Nero's persecution: "Foremost in the rank of those emperors, on whom the church looks back with horror as her persecutors, stands Nero, a prince whose conduct towards the Christians admits of no palliation, but was to the last degree unprincipled and inhuman. The dreadful persecution which took place by order of this tyrant, commenced at Rome about the middle of November, in the year of our Lord 64. . . . This dreadful persecution ceased but with the death of Nero. The empire, it is well known, was not delivered from the tyranny of this monster until the year 68, when he put an end to his own life." (L. von Mosheim, Historical Commentaries, I:138,139).

His bestial cruelty is evidenced in the writings of the Roman historian Suetonius (A.D. 70-160), who speaks of Nero's "cruelty of disposition" evidencing itself at an early age. He documents Nero's evil and states: "neither discrimination or moderation [were employed] in putting to death whosoever he pleased on any pretext whatever." Suetonius notes that Nero "compelled four hundred senators and six hundred Roman knights, some of whom were well to do and of unblemished reputation, to fight in the arena."

Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder (A.D. 23-79) described Nero as "the destroyer of the human race" and "the poison of the world." Roman satirist Juvenal (A.D. 60-140) speaks of "Nero's cruel and bloody tyranny." Elsewhere, he calls Nero a "cruel tyrant."

Nero so affected the imagination that the pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, a contemporary of Nero, specifically mentions that Nero was called a "beast": "In my travels, which have been wider than ever man yet accomplished, I have seen many, many wild beasts of Arabia and India; but this beast, that is commonly called a Tyrant, I know not how many heads it has, nor if it be crooked of claw, and armed with horrible fangs. . . . And of wild beasts you cannot say that they were ever known to eat their own mother, but Nero has gorged himself on this diet."


How Nero fulfills Prophesy

In Apocalypse 13:7, the Beast is said to "make war with the saints and to overcome them." Apocalypse 13:5 says that the beast would conduct such blasphemous warfare for a specific period of time: 42 months. The Neronic persecution was instituted in 64 AD and lasted until his death in June 68 AD, which is three and a half years, or 42 months! Nero fits the bill for the role of the beast!

Apocalypse 13:10 and 14 says the Beast not only slays by the sword, but ultimately is to die of a sword wound. Do you know how Nero died? According to Suetonius, he "drove a dagger into his throat, aided by Epaphroditus, his private secretary" (ch.49). Nero killed with the sword and was killed by the sword. That Nero did, in fact, kill by the sword is a well-attested fact. Paul, for example, is said to have died under Nero by decapitation by means of the sword. Tertullian credits "Nero's cruel sword" as providing the martyr's blood as seed for the church. He urges his Roman readers to "Consult your histories; you will there find that Nero was the first who assailed with the imperial sword the Christian sect."

Nero died in the middle of the war on June 8th, 68 AD, and Vespasian went back to Rome to fight to become the new emperor. During this time the Christians fled Jerusalem because they heeded the warning of Matthew 24:16; the Jews thought the respite was a sign from God of victory and they gathered in Jerusalem in great numbers. The Romans came back and destroyed the city.

Apocalypse 17:3 tells us that the beast is red. The red color may be indicative of the bloodshed caused by the beast. But Suetonius writes of the legend associated with Nero's ancestral parentage, which explains why he had a red beard, which was very unusual in those times.

Apocalypse 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." The five "kings" were not ruling at the same time, for the text stated "five are fallen," meaning that five of those kings had come and gone. Then "one is," meaning the "king" who was ruling at the time Apocalypse was written. Here, in this verse, we have one of the clearest proofs for Nero being the beast. If we simply examine the list of Roman Emperors, we will be able to determine who the sixth king was. Flavius Josephus clearly points out that Julius Caesar was the first emperor of Rome, followed by Augustus; Tiberius; Caius (Caligula); Claudius; and the sixth emperor was…Nero (Antiquities, books 18 and 19), who assumed imperial power upon the death of the fifth emperor, Claudius, in October, A.D. 54. The matter is confirmed just a little later in the writings of Roman historians: Suetonius (Lives of the Twelve Caesars and Dio Cassius, Roman History 5). Nero reigned from 54AD to June of 68AD. John informs us that the seventh king was "not yet come." That would be Galba, who assumed power upon Nero's death in June, A.D. 68. But he was only to continue a "short space." As a matter of historical fact, his reign lasted but six months until January 15, A.D. 69.

What about the Beast's death-wound and his subsequent resurrection? Let us now consider John's revelation of the Beast arising from the dead (Apocalypse 13:3-4). At this point we need to reflect upon a most significant series of historical events of the A.D. 60s. First, with the death of Nero, the Roman Empire's founding family vanished from rule. Following the death of Nero was the extinction of the Julian line. Immediately, the Roman Empire was hurled into civil wars of horrible ferocity and dramatic proportions. These civil wars would strike everyone as being the very death throes of Rome, the Beast generically considered. Before the world's startled eyes, the seven-headed Beast (Rome) was toppling to its death as its sixth head (Nero) was mortally wounded with the sword.

Tacitus's detailed account of the ruin wreaked upon Rome almost equals in psychological horror, cultural devastation, and human carnage that which befell Jerusalem during the Jewish War, as recorded by Josephus and Tactius. The Roman civil wars were the first fruits of Nero's death. Josephus records that the destruction was so horrible, that the general Vespasian, "was not able to apply himself further in other wars when his native country was laid waste." Josephus agrees that during this time Rome was brought near to utter "ruin." He notes that "about this time it was that heavy calamities came about Rome on all sides." According to 4 Ezra 12:16-19, written around A.D. 100, the Empire was "in danger of falling": "In the midst of the time of that kingdom great struggles shall arise, and it shall be in danger of falling; nevertheless it shall not fall then, but shall regain its former power."

But what eventually occurred at the end of these death throes? Suetonius informs us that: "The empire, which for a long time had been unsettled and, as it were, drifting through the usurpation and violent death of three emperors, was at last taken in hand given stability by the Flavian family." Josephus sets forth this view of things when he writes: "So upon this confirmation of Vespasian's entire government, which was now settled, and upon the unexpected deliverance of the public affairs of the Romans from ruin, Vespasian turned his thoughts to what remained unsubdued in Judea." Thus, after a time of grievous civil wars, the Empire was revived by the ascending of Vespasian to the purple.

The point is not that Nero’s name is the primary identification of 666. The point is, instead, what the number meant to the seven churches. St. John’s Biblically informed readers will have already recognized many clear indications of the Beast’s identity. Nero arrived on the scene as the first great persecutor of the Church, the embodiment of the "666-ness" of the Empire, and – Lo and behold! – his very name spells out 666! It is significant that "all the earliest Christian writers on the Apocalypse, from Irenaeus down to Victorious of Pettau and Commodian in the fourth, and Andreas in the fifth, and St. Beatus in the eighth century, connect Nero, or some Roman emperor, with the Apocalyptic Beast ." There should be no reasonable doubt about this identification. St. John was writing to first-century Christians, warning them of things that were "shortly" to take place. They were engaged in the most crucial battle of history, against the Dragon and the evil Empire which he possessed. The purpose of the Apocalypse was to comfort the Church with the assurance that God was in control, so that even the awesome might of the Dragon and the Beast would not stand before the armies of Jesus Christ. Christ was wounded in His heel on Friday, the sixth day, the Day of the Beast – yet that is the day He crushed the Dragon’s head. At his most powerful, St. John says, the Beast is just a six, or a series of sixes; never a seven.

It is charged by some that Neron Kesar is merely a convenient "misspelling" of Nero’s name in Hebrew. This objection overlooks the fact that before the modern introduction of dictionaries the world was simply not as concerned as we are about uniformity in the spelling of names. Alternate spellings were common (e.g. "Joram" and "Jehoram" in the Old Testament), especially in the transliteration of words into a foreign tongue. But the allegation of misspelling is wholly wrong anyway. The form Neron Kesar is the linguistically "correct" Hebrew form, is the form found in the Talmud and other rabbinical writings, and was used by Hebrews in the first century, as archaeological evidence has shown. As F. W. Farrar observed, "the Jewish Christian would have tried the name as he thought of the name-that is in Hebrew letters. And the moment he did this the secret stood revealed. No Jew ever thought of Nero except as ‘Neron Kesar,’ and this gives at once . . . 666" (The Early Days of Christianity, Chicago and New York: Belford, Clarke& Co., 1882, p. 540). Of some related interest is the fact that if Nero’s name is written without the final "n" (i.e., the way it would occur to a Gentile to spell it in Hebrew), it yields the number 616 — which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament manuscripts. The most reasonable explanation for this variant is that it arose from the confusion over the final "n".

It may now be pointed out that in an Aramaic document from Murabba’at, dated to the "second year of the emperor Nero," the name is spelled ‘rsq nwrn’ as required by the theory (i.e., that 666 signifies Nero). The last two consonants of ‘rsq’ are damaged, but enough is preserved to show that no vowel-letter was written between the ‘q’ and ‘s’ (Apocalypse 13:18 and a Scroll from Murabba’at). The evidence can be seen by consulting the French work edited by P, Benoit, J. T. Milik, and R. DeVaux, Discoveries in the Judean Desert of Jordan II (Oxford, 1961), page 18, plate 29.

The Christians of the first century were under the military authority of Rome, a nation which openly proclaimed its rulers, the Caesars, to be divine. All those under the jurisdiction of Rome were required by law to publicly proclaim their allegiance to Caesar by burning a pinch of incense and declaring, "Caesar is Lord". Upon compliance with this law, the people were given a papyrus document called a "libellus", which they were required to present when either stopped by the Roman police or attempting to engage in commerce in the Roman marketplace, increasing the difficulty of "buying or selling" without this mark. This is the

essence of Scripture’s warnings to the early Christians against taking upon themselves the "mark of the beast".


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: apocalypse; godsgravesglyphs; preterism
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To: morphing libertarian

correct, the year of the 4 emperors :0


151 posted on 12/23/2011 1:07:38 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: patlin; DonkeyBonker
patlin: I would be interested to know which one of the doctrines of Christendom actually follows Torah so I could find a local ecclesia to join as I have found they are few and far between.

you want one that says you have to circumcise your sons and also bans eating pork and lobster?

152 posted on 12/23/2011 1:10:51 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
Photobucket

153 posted on 12/23/2011 1:11:48 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Cronos
So do you not read or teach from any of the New Testament books

ABSOLUTELY! I study the 1st century writings along with the Torah and the Prophets every week. They are inseparable in the eyes of YHVH. In His eye they are but one book, Genesis to Revelation, no new, no old, all current and of great relevance. Matthew to Revelation is the testimony of Messiah and Genesis to Malachi contains the doctrine and the prophesy of a coming Messiah that would redeem the house of Israel and graft the 2 broken branches back into the one “Tree of Life”, the “One House of YHVH”.

Messiah told us that “The testimony of Messiah is the Spirit of prophesy”. Well, if one wants to really know him and understand his words then one must look to where that prophesy/witness/testimony began and then start from there, not in the back of the book. The prophesy/witness/testimony begins in Genesis 1:1 with the Alef-Tav(Alpha-Omega) and continues throughout. The only problem is that the Alef-Tav was never translated so we would know where Messiah appears as the spoken and written “Word” in Torah and the Prophets. I also find it interesting that so much of what is said int he 1st century writings is nothing but quotes from the Torah and Prophets. Sure there are obvious places where Messiah and the apostles tell us who they are quoting from, but there are too numerous to mention places where that fact has been kept concealed. That is concealed to ones who do not study the way YHVH instructs us to study.

This week's 1 century study brings us to the book of Matthew where once again, the hidden/untranslated Alef-Tav appears a a messenger of YHVH in the Torah portion of the study. As I said, the sections of the bible are inseparable and they are but one complete book and if one wishes to understand the later part of the book and who the players are, then one must begin “in the beginning” where it all began while also studying from HIS perspective and HIS language. Zeph 3:9 "For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the YHVH, to serve him with one consent."

154 posted on 12/23/2011 1:24:32 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos
Paul is not saying anything new, justification is not by works but it is works that bring the blessing of the covenant. That is the problem with extrapolating(taking out of context) verses and trying to give meaning to them regardless of the contet that the letter was written in. These are letters, they are not books as English tells us they are. One doesn't open a letter and begin reading in towards the end and in small bits in order to understand the context in which the letter was written. The letter to the Galatians was written to the dispersed house of Israel, not to pagan gentiles("goy"). Galatians was written to those who knew they were out of covenant and had been kept from returning due to the 18 Edicts of the house of Shammai who was in control of the temple at that time.

John 11:49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.” 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation(Judah), 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad

James(Jacob) 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles(”goy”) in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens(”ger”= estranged) from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers(”goy”) from the covenants of promise ... 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers(”goy”) and foreigners(”goy”), but fellow citizens(”ger”) with the saints and members of the household of God

Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’

Mt 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 7:35 Then the Jews said among themselves, “Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?

1 Peter:1 To the “pilgrims of the Dispersion”(”ger”) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect(”bachiyr”=chosen like Moses) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father

155 posted on 12/23/2011 1:44:09 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos
you want one that says you have to circumcise your sons and also bans eating pork and lobster?

If that dotrine teaches that those things are for blessing and not attached to salvation, then yes because then that doctrine is in line and leads one down the straight path to the house of YHVH

156 posted on 12/23/2011 1:46:40 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos
So do you not read or teach from any of the New Testament books

Correction ... ON THE CONTRAIRE, WE DO READ FROM THE 1ST CENTURY WRITINGS!

157 posted on 12/23/2011 1:49:39 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos

NO passage says that those things are attached to salvation so you might as well give up the work of hasatan by trying to trip me up in saying so because it is not going to happen. Also, please disregard my previous post, I read the wrong line and thought I was responding to someone else.


158 posted on 12/23/2011 1:54:04 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
Perhaps you misread my post, or I just wasn't clear. I was making the same point you are... that man's ordinances and definition of perfection is not the same as the Creator's, for the reasons I gave. Being perfect "in the eye's of God" - as this perfection is defined by men - is not the same as being perfect in the eyes of God.

David's heart was perfect in the eye's of God, because David pursued righteousness with all of his heart. He walked with God. David was not exactly perfect from man's perspective, though, because of some serious missteps. I mean, look at this particular "outrage":

2 Sam 6.16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

159 posted on 12/23/2011 6:18:34 PM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: Ezekiel

Thank you, I did misunderstand.

Shalom


160 posted on 12/23/2011 10:17:29 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

Of course seeing what a good job I did writing my second post (my eye’s my eye’s!), I know I can count on myself botching up plain English. :-O

I do wonder at what point the floodlight will shine on the existence of the House of Joseph, and who will be the ones aiming the beam. It won’t be the Christians or Jews who accept the standard line that Jews only = genetic Israel (i.e the Northern Kingdom supposedly was either completely lost or assimilated into Judah).

Interesting times.


161 posted on 12/23/2011 11:01:13 PM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
exellent post, Jesus is reigning now as King and there will be no third coming. thank you for refuting dispensational nonsense invented in the infamous 19th century.

Reining??? With a rod of iron??? Right now???

Would you care to point out what the results of this reign are, right now???

162 posted on 12/23/2011 11:54:36 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Cronos
I don’t technically “buy” either of these — whichever way I believe that Christ reigns in heaven. There will be an end, but Christ told us not to focus on the when.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

He most certainly did...

163 posted on 12/24/2011 12:06:27 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Ezekiel
I do wonder at what point the floodlight will shine on the existence of the House of Joseph

Just finished round one of the 1 century writings portion of this weeks Torah parashah for our group. Mt 24, with references to Is 49 & Is 66. No wonder they don't teach these, their doctrinal hypocrisy would be exposed for what it truly is. These Scriptures, when studied together as they were meant to be, do tell us that the false doctrine of Christendom will be exposed for what it is in the end times and that is what Mt 24 is all about, exposing doctrine and false prophets who teach Yeshua is the Messiah while leading their flock down the road of destruction. Isaiah 49 also blows the doctrine of trinity as taught by Christendom right out of the water. It isn't YHVH speaking in Isaiah 49, it is Yeshua Messiah!!! And His real name is “Israel”. Yeshua is a title!!!

164 posted on 12/24/2011 12:24:07 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin; DonkeyBonker
who said any of these were related to salvtion -- you said, I would be interested to know which one of the doctrines of Christendom actually follows Torah so I could find a local ecclesia to join as I have found they are few and far between.

So I asked you you want one that says you have to circumcise your sons and also bans eating pork and lobster?

So, would you join an ecclesia that does not say you have to circumcise your sons and says ok to eating pork and lobster?

165 posted on 12/24/2011 3:52:02 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: patlin
pat: ON THE CONTRAIRE, WE DO READ FROM THE 1ST CENTURY WRITINGS

Then how come you said I can not seem to find the verses in Scripture wherein Paul say not to keep Torah. Where Paul out right rejected circumcision. -- evidently whoever this "we" is, doesn't read Galatians 5:2-3
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

And evidently this "we" doesn't read Corinthians either where Paul says Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 1 Cor 7:18

166 posted on 12/24/2011 3:55:46 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

The rapture could happen today.


167 posted on 12/24/2011 4:07:32 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)
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To: circlecity

I gave the link to Suetonius. Also note the Nero imposter who turned up among the Parthians — the Romans wanted this imposter handed over to them, why would they bother if he wasn’t a threat?


168 posted on 12/24/2011 4:36:39 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
"Also note the Nero imposter who turned up among the Parthians — the Romans wanted this imposter handed over to them, why would they bother if he wasn’t a threat?"

So they knew it was an imposter, not Nero himself. Thus, the percievied threat was an IMPOSTER. So are you saying the Beast of Revelation is a Nero imposter or Nero himself? It can't be Nero himself because everybody knew he was dead. To say the Beast is a Nero imposter pretty much makes the whole argument meaningless

169 posted on 12/24/2011 5:44:38 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Iscool

Christians have been transformed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s Son.

kingdoms have Kings.

Kings reign.

the results of this reign? Christians doing the will of the Father.


170 posted on 12/24/2011 6:41:50 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: patlin

Thank you very much for the references. Great study material. The trinity is some alien hybrid mixture that doesn’t belong.


171 posted on 12/24/2011 6:52:57 AM PST by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: marbren

the second coming of Jesus Christ could happen today.

when He comes again, it will be the end of the world.


172 posted on 12/24/2011 7:11:52 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Cronos
Sorry Cronos.

Per Paul, Jesus destroys the beast, the man of sin, the son of perdition with His breath at His second coming.

That hasn’t happened yet.


Sorry, Petronius, you're conflating different things because you've already assumed them to be descriptions of the same event. That's you, not Paul, doing that. The letters to the Thessalonians were written at least 16 years before the earliest possible date of composition for Revelation (67 or 68AD) and Paul didn't refer to "the man of sin, the son of perdition" as "the beast." Furthermore, it doesn't at all follow that what Paul said cannot be true at the same time that "the beast" in Revelation (the first beast) was referring to the historical Nero. You're assuming it can't be true because of a prior eschatological belief. On the other hand, it was the first beast that had been wounded but it was the second beast that caused the mark of the number of its name to be put on people's hands or foreheads, so that complicates the picture for considering that the mark giver was referring to Nero, since it was the second, non-wounded beast, that did that. If the wounded beast was Nero who died by sword at his own hand and the restored beast (the first one, not the second) was the restoration of the power of Rome through a line of Caesars, then the "second beast" who was subsequent to the "first beast," identified as Nero, and who did the mark of the beast thing, couldn't be referring to Nero, because this would have been after Nero's death and the reestablishment of Rome after the chaos following Nero's death.

Furthermore, "the beast" is not the same being described by Paul as being destroyed by Christ's breath at his coming since Revelation described the beast and the false prophet as being captured alive and then thrown alive into the lake of fire, everyone else being killed "killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse." So, if "the man of sin" is destroyed by Christ's breath and that is referring to "the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse" and "the beast" is tossed alive into the lake of fire, then it would require that the "sword coming out of the mouth" and "the lake of fire" are one and the same if "the beast" is the same as "the man of sin."

Bottom line: there's a good reason why a lot of folks were suspicious of Revelation and why it was the last book to make it into the canon.
173 posted on 12/24/2011 8:12:46 AM PST by aruanan
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Merry Christmas! :)


174 posted on 12/24/2011 8:53:57 AM PST by marbren (I do not know but, Thank God, God knows)
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To: Cronos; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Cronos. Also found this via that Google search for something entirely different.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


175 posted on 12/24/2011 8:59:10 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Merry Christmas, Happy New Year! May 2013 be even Happier!)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Christians have been transformed from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s Son.
kingdoms have Kings.
Kings reign.
the results of this reign? Christians doing the will of the Father.

You can make up anything you want...But that won't make any of it true...

Jesus is currently the High Priest...He is our Spiritual King...We worship Him in spirit and truth...

When Jesus does eventually rule as King of Kings, there's going to be first, lots and lots of dead people...Then Jesus will rule with a rod of iron...

You are not seeing that now...No one has ever seen that...

Jesus will reign from a throne in Jerusalem...There will not be a second throne for Mary, nor your pope...

176 posted on 12/24/2011 9:21:20 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
when He comes again, it will be the end of the world.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff??? You don't get it from God's word...

When Jesus comes to earth again, all the bad guys will be taken out...No Christians will be leaving, for some time...And the Earth will not be destroyed...

177 posted on 12/24/2011 9:23:50 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
when He comes again, it will be the end of the world.

Where do you guys come up with this stuff??? You don't get it from God's word...
[HA HA HA HA HA]

When Jesus comes to earth again, all the bad guys will be taken out...No Christians will be leaving, for some time...And the Earth will not be destroyed... [see Peter's take on this point below]

The day of the Lord:

From Paul:
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
--I Thessalonians 5
From Peter:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
The day of fire and destruction:

From Paul:
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
--II Thessalonians 1
From Peter:
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
--II Peter

178 posted on 12/24/2011 9:52:38 AM PST by aruanan
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To: Iscool
Exactly. At Jesus' second, literal coming to earth, the sheep and the goats will be separated, and those who come out of the Tribulation alive but unsaved will be put into hell. Those who have accepted Christ as Savior and survived the Antichrist will go into the Millennial Kingdom and repopulate the earth.

There will be no "end of the world" for at least another 1007 years.

179 posted on 12/24/2011 10:30:15 AM PST by GiovannaNicoletta ("....in the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Cronos

I’m looking at the Wikipedia entry for Nero, and it says his name was Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus.

Is there a reason why only Nero Caesar was specified as his name in this article?


180 posted on 12/24/2011 11:32:03 AM PST by ChocChipCookie
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To: Cronos

I’m sorry you do not understand the difference between salvation and blessing.


181 posted on 12/24/2011 12:58:40 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Iscool

you may want to read Matthew 24, you may learn something.


182 posted on 12/24/2011 2:48:28 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
Matthew 24 is about the 1st resurrection of the saints(Rev 20:4-6), not the 2nd one at the end of time when hasatan is thrown in the pit forever. There is a difference. A HUGE difference.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them and the lives of those who had been beheaded because of the witness they bore to Yeshua and because of the Word of Elohim, and who did not worship the beast, nor his image, and did not receive his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they lived and reigned with Messiah for a thousand years

Rev 20:5 (and the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended) this is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and set-apart is the one having part in the first resurrection. The second death possesses no authority over these, but they shall be priests of Elohim and of Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

183 posted on 12/24/2011 3:24:40 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Matthew 25 is about the 2nd resurrection of the Sunday churchers


184 posted on 12/24/2011 3:25:32 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
you may want to read Matthew 24, you may learn something.

Maybe I'll do that...What book is Matthew 24 in anyway...

185 posted on 12/24/2011 5:09:39 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

mega dittos!


186 posted on 12/24/2011 7:14:58 PM PST by LiteKeeper ("Who is John Galt?")
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To: patlin
oh, I do, but YOU said I can not seem to find the verses in Scripture wherein Paul say not to keep Torah. Where Paul out right rejected circumcision.

I'm sorry you have not read Galations 5:2-4
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

And 1 Cor 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised --> so Paul is saying not to follow the Torah's teaching on circumcision, hence your statement is incorrect.

187 posted on 12/25/2011 5:01:18 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: ChocChipCookie

Good question — because the regular name by which a Roman was called was by his praenomen (family name) and the “tribe name” hence Nero Caesar.


188 posted on 12/25/2011 5:15:18 AM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Iscool

Maybe I’ll do that...What book is Matthew 24 in anyway...

this comment explains all the ignorance of Christianity shown this past year.


189 posted on 12/25/2011 8:29:17 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Cronos
so Paul is saying not to follow the Torah's teaching on circumcision, hence your statement is incorrect

Acts 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.

1st of all, one can not get the contet of what a letter is about by starting in middle or the closing of a letter. So what does Paul say at the opening of these 2 letters you cite.

1Cor 1:4 I thank my Elohim always concerning you for the favour of Elohim which was given to you by Messiah 9 Elohim is trustworthy, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Yeshua Messiah 10 And I appeal to you, brothers, by the Name of Yeshua Messiah, that you all agree, and that there be no divisions among you 13 Has the Messiah been divided? 14 I thank Elohim that I immersed not one of you except Crispus and Gaios, 15 that no one should say that I immersed into my own name 18 For the word of the stake is indeed foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of Elohim

Division amongst the ranks because of the house of Shammai that was going around and telling the new believers in Messiah that they had to be circumcised in the flesh before they could enter back into covenant and be saved from ther penalty of sin which is death.

1Co 3:1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual ones but as to fleshly, as to babes in Messiah. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food, for until now you were not able to receive it 9 For we are fellow workers of Elohim, you are the field of Elohim, the building of Elohim 16 Do you not know that you are a Dwelling Place of Elohim and that the Spirit of Elohim dwells in you 23 And you belong to Messiah, and Messiah belongs to Elohim 1Co 4:1 Let a man regard us as servants of Messiah and trustees of the secrets of Elohim

2Cor 3:4 And such trust we have toward Elohim, through the Messiah ... 13 and not like Mosheh, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel should not look steadily at the end of what was passing away ... But their minds were hardened, for to this day, when the old covenant is being read, that same veil remains, not lifted, because in Messiah it is taken away. But to this day, when Mosheh is being read, a veil lies on their heart. And when one turns to the Master, the veil is taken away.

Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or Elohim? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I should not be a servant of Messiah. 11 And I make known to you, brothers, that the Good News announced by me is not according to man 15 But when it pleased Elohim, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me by His favour, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might bring Him, the Good News, to the gentiles Gal 2:4 But as for the false brothers, sneakingly brought in, who sneaked in to spy out our freedom which we have in Messiah Yeshua in order to enslave us Gal 3:11 And that no one is declared right by Torah before Elohim is clear, for “The righteous shall live by belief.” 12 And the Torah is not of belief, but “The man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Torah, having become a curse for us 14 in order that the blessing of Aḇraham might come upon the nations in Messiah Yeshua

And what is the curse? It is the penalty of death due for sin. For if Torah taught by Messiah Yeshua is gone, then what defines sin?

Gal 3:16 But the promises were spoken to Aḇraham, and to his Seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Messiah. 17 Now this I say, Torah, that came four hundred and thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously confirmed by Elohim in Messiah, so as to do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is by Torah, it is no longer by promise, but Elohim gave it to Aḇraham through a promise. 19 Why, then, the Torah? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made. And it was ordained through messengers in the hand of a mediator. 20 The Mediator, however, is not of one, but Elohim is one. 21 Is the Torah then against the promises of Elohim? Let it not be! For if a law had been given that was able to make alive, truly righteousness would have been by Torah Gal 4:9 But now after you have known Elohim, or rather are known by Elohim, how do you turn again to the weak and poor elementary matters, to which you wish to be enslaved again?

Circumcision of the heart is of no value if Torah is gone because that would mean the promise of Abraham of also null and void. Vainly the Judaizers preached works of the flesh, but YHVH has always sought works of the heart. The law is still the same, it is the instrument in which it is followed that makes it either a blessing or a curse. Also according to these Words of Paul, it is not Messiah who resides in our hearts, it is Elohim and thus it is Elohim's Torah which He has written on our hearts. Not some new covenant that Christendom teaches Yeshua Messiah brought.

When Messiah Yeshua spoke that he came to 'fulfill' it is the same word he used in Mt 3:15 when he said, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Thus when religious doctrine claims that Torah is done away with, in the statement, that doctrine is also claiming that righteousness is done away with. Which as one can clearly see in Galatians, Paul once again rejected any notion that Torah was done away with.

So it is your statement that is incorrect.

190 posted on 12/25/2011 9:14:48 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos
Mt 22:Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[Dt 6:5] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[Lev 19:18] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

The 2 greatest commandents quoted from Torah by Messiah Yeshua. They were not new as the doctrine of Christendom professes and teaches.

191 posted on 12/25/2011 9:42:21 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ravenwolf

John was writing from the view of God, not of man. (Prophetically).

One day (with the Lord) is as a thousand years. Shortly could be 2, or 3 thousand years.

Looking at the scriptural references as a whole, the prophecy that Israel must be regathered only occurred recently (in our generation).

No man shall know the time, but we WILL (if we are listening to God), know the “season”.

THe 1,000 year reign WILL be a reign of Christ’s rule on earth. So nations will not be ruled by despots, tryrants, dictators, or religious posers such as we have now.


192 posted on 12/25/2011 5:11:18 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: patlin
don't divert -- let's repeat your statement about Paul again -- I can not seem to find the verses in Scripture wherein Paul say not to keep Torah. Where Paul out right rejected circumcision. -- evidently whoever this "we" is, doesn't read Galatians 5:2-3
2Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

And evidently this "we" doesn't read Corinthians either where Paul says Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 1 Cor 7:18

So pretty evidently your statement about Paul (above) is incorrect, as is your other statement ON THE CONTRAIRE, WE DO READ FROM THE 1ST CENTURY WRITINGS -- unless Galatians and 1 Corinthians are not in what this "we" read.

193 posted on 12/25/2011 10:13:26 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: patlin
Do not read in snippets -- Romans 3 says 20: Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin. as well as
21. But now without the law the justice of God is made manifest, being witnessed by the law and the prophets -- Paul talks of ripping the Torah's laws such as circumcision, so hence your statement above about Paul teaching the Torah is wrong.
194 posted on 12/25/2011 10:17:23 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: aruanan; PetroniusMaximus; GiovannaNicoletta; one Lord one faith one baptism; Gamecock
Aruanan: Sorry, Petronius, you're conflating different things because you've already assumed them to be descriptions of the same event. That's you, not Paul, doing that. The letters to the Thessalonians were written at least 16 years before the earliest possible date of composition for Revelation (67 or 68AD) and Paul didn't refer to "the man of sin, the son of perdition" as "the beast." Furthermore, it doesn't at all follow that what Paul said cannot be true at the same time that "the beast" in Revelation (the first beast) was referring to the historical Nero

well said, our friends are mixing Thessalonians with Revelation's commentary on Nero with Daniel's commentary on Antiochus IV

Revelation was for the situation AT HAND -- Nero's persecution of Christians. it is over and Nero is dead despite the 3 imposters who came 10, 15 and 20+ years after 68 AD

195 posted on 12/25/2011 10:37:20 PM PST by Cronos (Nuke Mecca and Medina now..)
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To: Cronos
Talk about reading in snippets, it is not I that does, it is the doctrine of Christendom that is founded in snippets disregarding the words of Messiah and his apostles.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1Co 10:1 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brothers, that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 1Co 10:2 and all were immersed into Mosheh in the cloud and in the sea, 1Co 10:3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed, and the Rock was Messiah

Gal 3:13 Messiah redeemed us from the curse(penalty of death) of the Torah, having become a curse for us 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the nations in Messiah Yeshua

Dt 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day

Circumcision...it is not about salvation, it is about blessing that comes from obedience for according to Paul, obedience IS righteousness and we are all to run the race of righteousness for if the works are of the heart, the works are not of us but of the Spirit that resides in our hearts. The same Spirit that circumcised our hearts in order that the sin of the flesh no longer dulls HIS Light of righteouness that HE planted in us when we accepted HIM into our heart. Therefore, the works that come of the heart is God's Light to the world because those works are HIS, not ours. We are HIS servants, created for the sole puprose to serve HIM as HE instructs.

196 posted on 12/25/2011 11:24:18 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Cronos
well said, our friends are mixing Thessalonians with Revelation's commentary on Nero with Daniel's commentary on Antiochus IV

Yes, but read the rest, the "on the other hand." Neither view fits the actual language in Revelation.
197 posted on 12/26/2011 5:37:43 AM PST by aruanan
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To: BereanBrain

John was writing from the view of God, not of man. (Prophetically).

One day (with the Lord) is as a thousand years. Shortly could be 2, or 3 thousand years.

Looking at the scriptural references as a whole, the prophecy that Israel must be regathered only occurred recently (in our generation).

No man shall know the time, but we WILL (if we are listening to God), know the “season”.

THe 1,000 year reign WILL be a reign of Christ’s rule on earth. So nations will not be ruled by despots, tryrants, dictators, or religious posers such as we have now.


Looking at the scriptural references as a whole, the prophecy that Israel must be regathered only occurred recently (in our generation).

Ain,t the gathering of Isreal supposed to be in the last days, in the latter years? since that started in 1948 don,t that mean we are living in the last days now?

Personally i believe not only the time has a different Prophetic meaning, but also the meaning of the prediction itself.

I can not help but to believe that the thousand year reign of Christ has been fulfilled, and that Satan has been released for a spell.

But i admit i am not looking at technicalities, but just the broader view of it.

Jesus said that his Gospel would be preached to all of the world and then the end would come, we know there were Priests spreading the gospel to most of the world for over a thousand years before 1948.

But only after 1948 has it been possible by radio and tv to spread the gospel to all of the world literally.and that has happened.


198 posted on 12/26/2011 6:27:39 AM PST by ravenwolf (reIf you believe that Nero was the anti-Christ, and among othJust a bit of the long list of proofsre)
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To: Cronos

It’s obvious that there are as many different convictions in the inerrancy of a particular Biblical interpretation, as there are interpreters. Anyone who ventures a post like this is asking for a verbal haymaker.

That is why I do so appreciate your bravery in commenting.


199 posted on 12/26/2011 1:27:02 PM PST by worst-case scenario (Striving to reach the light)
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To: ravenwolf

If Satan has been released for a spell, which period of 1,000 years was he bound (please show me 1,000 years without war on earth)


200 posted on 12/26/2011 4:02:29 PM PST by BereanBrain
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