Posted on 01/03/2012 3:30:48 PM PST by Gamecock
See post 280#...Interesting.
“...and any works we do is in obedience to God, ...”
How does that contradict what I posted?
>> Why would they teach something they don’t consider a FINAL AUTHORITY, anyway? <<
Because they DO consider it a final authority!!! The very first test of whether an apparition is genuine, or a doctrine to be considered by a pope is true, or the teachings of a saint are true, or a position to be considered by an ecumenical council is true is “Does this conform to the scriptures?”
But of course you don’t believe that because
(1) There are many points of disagreement between reasonable people as to how to interpret the scriptures, and you guys discount the consistent teaching of the Catholic church since the first century, and therefore presume that the Catholic Church must’ve made it up and
(2) You have your own, completely false ideas about what the Catholic Church teaches. If you want to credit them to a giant extended family, fine, but that extended family of yours is not the Catholic Church, just a few apparently devastatingly poorly educated Catholics and ex-Catholics.
I picked one of them to double-check because I was familiar with where he was ordained...Bartholomew Brewer. I quickly found a longer story which apparently was the source.
I’d say simply that this Bartholomew Brewer fell.
For the entire first section, and the start of the 2nd, he writes of the priesthood as something he loved, and was very happy in. Then he fell in love with a school girl in a barrio. He writes like someone with a definitely disordered sexuality: “Until then my life had been almost exclusively among men. I enjoyed watching the girls giggle as they flirted with teasing boys. After a while, though, my attention was drawn to one of the more diligent students, who thoroughly captivated my interest. This young lady was mature beyond her years because of the responsibilities that had fallen to her after her mother had died. She was lovely and shyly responded as we stole moments talking alone after class.”
He did NOT confess this apparently, because his bishop found out the wrong way. He was disciplined, and shipped out. He eventually questioned celibacy, left the priesthood, and became a member of the 7th-Day Adventists, a restorationist denomination, famous for spawning numerous anti-Christ cults and the laughably silly writings of its founder, Ellen Gould White, a Millerite whose whoppers make Joseph Smith sound like Abraham Lincoln.
Great post. Thank you, caww. I’ll spend tomorrow reading your link.
Once the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth by the light of Scripture, darkness is banished for good.
Post tenebras lux (after darkness, light.)
Hugh Farrell, the next one I looked at makes an obvious lie
Section A and D of what he said are entirely true. Priests do have the authority to transubstantiate (sect. A), and this authority is not diminished by the sins of the priests, since Christ is objectively present wherever the outward signs of his Church exist.
(I’d note, however, that while what is said is true, it seems, nonetheless, that the priest’s soul resists proper execution of the signs when his soul has been become dark; I can’t tell you how many priests I have experienced who cannot seem to bring themselves to confect the Eucharist in a valid manner. They use glass vessels, for instance, where the Catholic faith teaches that only a noble substance can be used.)
But Part B of Hugh Farrell’s testimony *is* a lie. He writes, “I knew from the teachings of the priests and nuns that I could not hope to go directly to heaven after my death.” It’s true that Catholics believe in the existence of temporal effects of sin: repentance, for instance, won’t make a man who killed his parents no longer an orphan. And its true that these temporal effects persist after death: such a man may torment himself with guilt and shame, to the extent that he cannot fully, instantaneously receive the forgiveness of Christ. But there are many ways by which a soul can prepare itself to immediately receive the forgiveness of Christ, and heal any shame. The outward sign of these preparations is a “plenary indulgence.”
But you see your post saying he wasn’t telling it right proves again that catholics have a smorgasboard of what they want to believe and justify to themselves why their take is the right one. You just did that very thing by saying this Priest had it wrong......time and again catholics say they are in one accord and time and again you proove that’s “not true”.
Great post. Thank you, caww. I’ll spend tomorrow reading your link.
Once the Holy Spirit illuminates the truth by the light of Scripture, darkness is banished for good.
Post tenebras lux (after darkness, light.)
Priests are mere men; you cannot know whether they believe in heresies or not, but you can know which things they say are heretical.. and a lot of things which are said by a lot of priests are heretical. But some things said by former priests are outright lies.
... and yes, Hugh Farrell is also a liar, not just a heretic.
... which is not to say there is some room for theological disagreements among Catholics. I happen to disagree with John Paul II on the death penalty. But then, John Paul was always very careful to make clear that his position on the death penalty was his *opinion,* based on *prudential judgment,* not a doctrinal assertion. Similarly, Just War Theory is just that... theologically, a theory. And one which George Weigel understands in a very different way than a lot of American bishops. But George Weigel and the American bishops agree that if my president orders troops into Iraq, and I am a troop, I commit no sin, and in fact, am heroic, for meeting that call, because Just War Theory leaves such discernment to the secular leaders.
They key is that all Catholics agree of moral doctrine, or else they can be objectively known as heretics or dissidents. There can be no intellectually honest, faithful disagreement on moral issues, such as abortion, birth control, pornography, divorce, Sunday obligation, the efficacy of the sacraments, etc., A Catholic may hold a different position than the majesterium, but the teachings of the majesterium are knowable and definite.
(of course, “I am a troop,” should be, “I am in a troop.”)
It would be quite normal for you to bash Brewer since God is using him mightily in his ministry to catholics to this day. Of course you would attempt to discredit him. However his many books and his ministry would certainly refute what you’re saying....he didn’t fall as you say....he escaped the tenticles of false catholic teachings and found Christ.
BTW...He’s Not 7th day adventist though his mother was and he was involved for a time after he left the Priesthood. He is a Fundamentalist Baptist...and now has a ministry to catholics to help bring them out of catholicisim.
“We met some Biblical Fundamentalists who believed and faithfully practiced the principles of the Bible. Though we have many friends in independent Bible churches, we were members of a Fundamental Baptist church, in which I was also ordained.”
No they don't or every catholic I've met is a heretic or dissident...and I've conversed with many individually and in groups. Most all believe it's a womans right to do with her body what she wants...abortion....and have no problem saying they disagree with the Pope on that. They do not think they have to attend Mass as perscribed...but that it's their choice....many have have had their marriages annuled as well...yet they all attend the catholic church...and take communion.
It's very annoying to hear catholics state that their members abide by their churches teaching....they don't...and they will and do what they want despite the "labels" the church puts on them for doing so..it makes no difference to them nor to their Priests who are more than aware of the "condition of their flocks".
Well if that is so then how in the world did the homosexuals and pedophiles enter in mass??? and worse remain protected and guarded by Rome???
The catholic leadership is not deceived in this matter...it has and continues to encourage it by not removing the "criminals" from among them and subjecting their membership, children and adukts to further harm.
There is nothing whatsoever "Beautiful" about it's membership still being deceived by it's leadership on this matter. Nothing at all...and in fact some of those appointed to investigate the matters have now been charged with pedophilia themselves....go figure!
Then how can any catholic "confess" to a Priest as the mediator between them and God....they don't past the test.
Further how can you take the sacrements from the hands which may have previously been touching children where they shouldn't, or had sex with another Priest..."You can't know whether".....
How can you possibly explain when it's membership think a Priest should be gone after for "slanderous claims"...yet current Priests are protected for being sexual perverts of the highest order?
What a wonderful testimony. Praise God! Everything he learned as a child growing up in the Catholic Church is my experience, too. I think most of us - those who are inclined to really seek the truth - think that the only way to have any assurance of Heaven is to be a priest or a nun. I remember thinking if I was a nun, I could be pretty confident that I had a good chance of going there. Surely, all priests and nuns are good enough, right? But, thank the Lord, he lead me to the truth of the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith in Christ. When I read those verses in John 10:27-30, I knew I had found the truth - and the truth found me!
Faith in Christ alone is what saves you. Jesus said, "He that believes in him HAS everlasting life." Paul does not contradict Jesus when he said, "Work out your own salvation...", because you first can't exercise something you don't already have and he didn't say work FOR your salvation. When one receives Jesus Christ, believes on Him as Savior, he IS "eating his flesh and blood", that is why Jesus said he is the bread of life and the water of life and whoever drinks of him would live forever. His body was broken and his blood shed for the payment of all our sins. When we believe on him, we are born again into the family of God, baptized by the Holy Spirit and indwelt with him, and we WILL endure to the end because he is holding on to us. No one can snatch us from his hand, he will NEVER cast us out and will not lose one of us. THAT is the Christian faith. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone to the glory of God alone.
The difference between doing works to merit or earn salvation of producing works as the fruit or byproduct of salvation.
Motive counts with God as He looks at the heart. He knows whether we are counting on our works to earn forgiveness and salvation because we aren’t trusting wholly in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, or producing them as a result of saving faith.
Well, which is it? Impervious to demonic deception or containing demonic deception in the form of heretic priests?
Catholics want their cake and to eat it too and it just doesn't work.
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