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Mary: Mother of God?
What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7

Mary: Mother of God?

This article is prompted by an ad in the Parade Magazine titled: "Mary Mother of God: What All Mankind Should Know." The offer was made for a free pamphlet entitled "Mary Mother of Jesus" with this explanation: "A clear, insightful pamphlet explains the importance of Mary and her role as Mother of God."

This is quite a claim, to say the least! Nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God. I touched on this subject in a series on "Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ" printed recently.

Question: If Mary is the Mother of God, Who, may I ask, is the Father of God? Does God have a Father, and if He does, Who is His Mother?

The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD. It occurs in the Creed of Chalcedon, which was adopted by the council in 451 AD. This was the declaration given at that time: "Born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to the Manhood." The purpose of this statement originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine. The doctrine now emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to. Read Hebrews 10:5 and Phil 2:5-11.

Please refer to Hebrews 10:5 where we see. "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."

The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18, "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".

This doctrine deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things. It is a blasphemous attack on the eternity of God to ever teach that He has a mother. Mary had other children who were normal, physical, sinful human beings. In the case of Jesus Christ, "His human nature had no father and His divine nature had no mother."

It is probably no coincidence that this false doctrine surrounding Mary was born in Ephesus. Please read Acts 19:11-41 and see that Ephesus had a problem with goddess worship. Her name was Diana, Gk. Artemis. You will not have to study very deep to find the similarities between the goddess Diana and the Roman Catholic goddess, Mary. It should be noted that the Mary of the 1st century and the Mary of the 20th century are not the same. Mary of the 1st century was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah. Mary of the 20th century is a goddess created by the Roman Catholic Church. A simple comparison of what the Bible teaches about Mary and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about her will reveal two different Marys. Mary is not the "Mother of God." If she were she would be GOD! There is only one true, eternal God. He was not born of a woman. Any teaching on any subject should be backed up by the word of God. If it cannot be supported by Scriptures, it is false doctrine.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; calvinismisdead; divinity; humanity; ignoranceisbliss; mariolatry; mary; motherofgod; nestorianheresy; nestorians; perpetualvirginity; theotokos
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To: RnMomof7

Is it ok for Catholics to make statues of their deceased relatives who died as believers, kneel down before them and ask for their blessings?


1,251 posted on 01/14/2012 12:15:19 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: gghd

Newbie, your ‘voice’ is very familiar.


1,252 posted on 01/14/2012 12:21:35 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: RnMomof7; gghd; All
Do Catholics consider this prayer to Mary to be idolatry? Can you pray this to any deceased believer, such as your own grandmother?

Prayer Commending Oneself to Mary

O holy Mary, my Mistress, into thy blessed trust and special blessing, into the bosom of thy tender mercy, this day, every day of my life and at the hour of my death, I commend my soul and body; to thee I entrust all my hopes and consolations, all my trials and miseries, my life and the end of my life, that through thy most holy intercession and thy merits, all my actions may be ordered and disposed according to thy will and that of thy divine Son. Amen.

btw gghd, this isn't what evangelicals typically say to each other in the "prayer chain".

1,253 posted on 01/14/2012 12:23:50 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: CynicalBear

no comparison.

Islam is a false religion and a political/national ideology which does not trace its beginning to Jesus, nor does it even recognize Him as God.

It is just more heresy, albeit a vicious one, but heresies have abounded from the beginning and as is evident in this thread, heresies are still around.

The main difference in Islamists and other heretics, is that the Islamists have power which they wield to control their members.


1,254 posted on 01/14/2012 12:28:53 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Tramonto

Luke 11:

27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

How can a Catholic read this and not understand that the devotion to and worship of Mary is contrary to Jesus’ own teachings. You can either follow Rome or Christ.

1,255 posted on 01/14/2012 12:31:24 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: Iscool

Mary is the mother of Christians, just as Jesus said from the cross and it was in sorrow caused by the death of her Son that the Church was born.

The Holy Spirit, God, is her spouse and her entire life was given over to Him.


1,256 posted on 01/14/2012 12:33:03 PM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear

No, I don’t follow Replacement Theology and neither does the Church.

The promises to Israel are still the same promises, but we are now partakers of those promises in that Jesus fulfilled them and opened the gates to all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

Jesus is the New and Everlasting Covenant, exactly as He said.


1,257 posted on 01/14/2012 12:38:14 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
>>Islam is a false religion and a political/national ideology which does not trace its beginning to Jesus, nor does it even recognize Him as God.<<

You mean that length of time doesn’t necessarily mean anything after all? Are you saying there are other criteria to take into consideration? Maybe like sticking with what scripture teaches and not listening to the “tales of men”?

1,258 posted on 01/14/2012 12:42:54 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette; caww
>>Mary is the mother of Christians<<

Scripture reference please.

1,259 posted on 01/14/2012 12:45:05 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

LOl, good try.

The length of time is just that, the amount of time that has passed since the start of the Church. That in and of itself is not what matters, other than there has been that many years.

***Maybe like sticking with what scripture teaches and not listening to the “tales of men”?****

LOL, nice try again.

This is where you get lost and why protestantism cannot make the same claims that the Church can make and why it is not the True Church, but an offshoot of it.

Scripture supports Catholic teaching, All of it. Rejecting the teachings because one interprets Scripture differently does not negate Catholic teaching, it merely shows why the authority Jesus gave her is so needed.

During this conversation, as I have been presented different questions and challenges, I have researched what Scripture says, in context and then what the different understandings of it are from others.

People are all over the map on so many things. One trying to read and understand Scripture for the first time would be just overwhelmed with the disparity among all the “churches” out there.

St. John Henry Newman wrote an essay on the “Development of Doctrine” and it was that which brought him home to the Church; for what he found was that going back through all the centuries and generations of the Church, doctrine was not changed, though it had been “fleshed” out over time.

The length of time is only important in regards to the Church, because no matter how much protestants reject the doctrines of Catholicism, history shows that they are the odd men out, not the Catholics.

Protestants are the ones who have created new doctrine out of whole cloth. Doctrines that no one believed, lo those many years ago, or doctrines that were declared heretical, lo those many years ago.

It is why protestants hate the history of the Church, they have no place in it.


1,260 posted on 01/14/2012 12:56:26 PM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear

I told you.

Jesus’ proclamation from the cross, “Woman, behold your son. Son, behold your mother.”

I know protestants must reject that is what Jesus meant, but again, if one looks throughout history, one sees that Christians thought of Mary as their mother because of those very words of Jesus.


1,261 posted on 01/14/2012 12:59:11 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Tramonto
The quick answer is NO.<< It's a form of intercessory prayer to Mary. In the Catholic Church, Mary is the Mother of God & the Queen of Heaven.

In the Catholic Church ‘Idolatry’ is giving >divine honors to a creature. Adoration (worship) is an due God. Mary is venerated in the Catholic Church. (We are speaking about a mother & we should always be polite.)

I don't recall the prayer, though I may have heard it more than once. There are a gazillion prayers in the Catholic Church. Notice the word —intercession— in the prayer. The wording of the prayer sounds like >Love too. Mary as the mother of Jesus is also ‘our’ mother. Some people are consumed with the Love for God & the entire Kingdom of Heaven.

Anything you want to find out about the Catholic Church is on the Web. Sometimes you need ‘Official Church teachings’ to get the correct information. There are also numerous -world wide- associations that are especially devoted to Saint Mary. The other mothers in the world >Love Mary & understand what is to suffer as a mother. It must have been horrific for her to see her son Crucified for the Sins of others.

I remember who you are because you like Sarah Palin. Thumbs up on that one. BUT BUT, do you go to church? I originally thought most people were ‘normal’ on FreeRepublic. I do have >complete trust that you are ‘normal’ as you like Sarah Palin.> Hopefully, Sarah Palin will become our Saint Sarah Palin & vanquish the demons in the USA.

1,262 posted on 01/14/2012 1:01:09 PM PST by gghd
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To: Jvette; caww
>>No, I don’t follow Replacement Theology and neither does the Church.<<

I think you need to study up on what the RCC actually says Jevette.

“The Catholic Church is Israel.” [http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2011/01/catholic-church-is-israel.html]

Catholics acknowledge that the Church is spiritual Israel or, in Catholic parlance, the "new Israel" (cf. CCC 877)

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons. For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop. [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/877.htm]

The CC most certainly thinks they have replaced Israel.

1,263 posted on 01/14/2012 1:06:41 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette; CynicalBear
"History shows that they are the odd men out,not the Catholics."

Does history indeed show that?

The Bible shows that we are One New Man. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances: for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace:" Eph. 2:15.

I think God has a better opinion of His Church, the Body of Christ, than history has. I'll stay with God's opinion.

1,264 posted on 01/14/2012 1:08:31 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: CynicalBear
>> I think that the corrupter of desire created the Reformation.<<

Well there certainly was some corruption that lingered. The were after all bought up on the Catholic faith.

I refer to Asmodeus. Reading Tobit might prove of interest.

1,265 posted on 01/14/2012 1:10:03 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Jvette
It also is not so much that the Church has been here for 2,000 years, it is that the Church has prevailed, as Jesus promised it would. That it has been 2,000 years is only because, gee, it’s been 2,000 years since Christ lived and died and rose again. Neither of these things would be or could be true, if the Holy Spirit does not guide and protect the Church, just as Jesus promised.

They'll hold their breath and turn blue until God gives control of their own salvation over to them.

1,266 posted on 01/14/2012 1:11:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: CynicalBear

“The CC most certainly thinks they have replaced Israel.”

In your bizarro world maybe. Taking the point of view that Christmas and Easter are pagan, that the Catholic Church teaches idolatry and that Church on Sunday is a man made tradition without meaning (oh and do please correct me if I misunderstood your views, you are often obtuse and difficult to follow), well that odd - even bizarro - worldview makes it very difficult to accept any of your opinions about what the Universal Church teaches as having any probative value at all. Nothing personal, but really, why would you expect anyone with any understanding of true Christianity to take you seriously?


1,267 posted on 01/14/2012 1:12:19 PM PST by narses
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To: CynicalBear

****The CC most certainly thinks they have replaced Israel.***

That is not Replacement Theology. The passage never says that the Church has replaced Israel.

The use of the word collegial here demonstrates what the Church believes is our relationship to Israel. Just as Scripture tells us that we are now coheirs...

Ephesians 3 Brothers and sisters: You have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit, namely, that the mystery was made known to me by revelation. It was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit: that the Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and copartners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

***the seeds of the new Israel***

The new Israel is the community of ALL believers, whether Jew or Gentile bound together under the New and Everlasting covenant which is Jesus Christ.

Those Jews living under the old covenant, while still heirs to the promises of God, have chosen to remain in the old rather than believe in Jesus. They are not part of the Church and they still exist, they have not been replaced.


1,268 posted on 01/14/2012 1:17:06 PM PST by Jvette
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To: smvoice

1,269 posted on 01/14/2012 1:20:19 PM PST by narses
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To: smvoice

?


1,270 posted on 01/14/2012 1:20:39 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette

See 1267. Trying to explain what we believe to people who think we are pagan idolators may be asking too much of their own prejudiced worldviews.


1,271 posted on 01/14/2012 1:22:03 PM PST by narses
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To: gghd; presently no screen name
What is the name of your church? Please tell us!

www.nfl.com/promotions/directv/sundayticket

1,272 posted on 01/14/2012 1:22:20 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Jvette
It is why protestants hate the history of the Church, they have no place in it.

You have hit the nail right on the thumb.

1,273 posted on 01/14/2012 1:24:35 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

I will tell you, participating in this thread has been a real education for me. This is why I am here and why sometimes I cannot stay away. It has been a fascinating discussion, very enlightening in so many ways.

Last night, after signing off, I couldn’t help but continue to think of the various things I had read on here throughout the day.

My last thought was of the irony that this thread is and that thought led me to realize again how God acts through His Church.

The discussion started off as a thread about “Mary, Mother of God” but for the whole day, all I and many others here did was discuss Jesus and His two natures.

And so I thought, this is exactly what the Catholic Church is always saying.....that Mary always points to and leads us to her Son.

Mary is who and what she is because Jesus is Who and What He is.


1,274 posted on 01/14/2012 1:29:06 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
My last thought was of the irony that this thread is and that thought led me to realize again how God acts through His Church. The discussion started off as a thread about “Mary, Mother of God” but for the whole day, all I and many others here did was discuss Jesus and His two natures. And so I thought, this is exactly what the Catholic Church is always saying.....that Mary always points to and leads us to her Son. Mary is who and what she is because Jesus is Who and What He is.

Mary is a signpost to Jesus. The Church has always believed it, ever since St. Luke wrote (painted) the first icon - of Mary. The Church will always believe it. Mary says to the waiters at Cana "Do whatever He tells you".

You may or may not decline to make use of that signpost. That is not the issue. But if one takes it upon one's self to declare one's own salvation, why then, the example of Mary has to be a rather irritating thorn. Mary submitted to God. The monastics submitted to God. The Church submits to God. Protestants, especially the failed Catholics, do not submit. They wish to overcome and conquer.

Remember your Milton...

1,275 posted on 01/14/2012 1:41:09 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Unlike you, I am a devotee of Jesus Christ, and follow his commandments.

.


1,276 posted on 01/14/2012 1:47:08 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: MarkBsnr

I heard on the Rush Limbo show some time ago that the ‘cops’ were just going to let the fans of some NFL teams enter the stadiums & then they were going to put bars on all the exits so no one could get out.

Rush Limbo also then talked about FEMA camps. Danged if I know whether Rush Limbo was joking or not! I thought I should mention it as I wouldn’t anyone in my Church to miss a Holy of Obligation & end up in a FEMA camp.


1,277 posted on 01/14/2012 1:51:37 PM PST by gghd
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To: Jvette; CynicalBear

Did you not understand? Sorry. The Catholic Church is NOT spiritual Israel. The Church the BOdy of Christ is ONE NEW MAN, not one man improved upon. NEW means something that has never been before. If you think you are spiritual Israel, then you’re obviously NOT one NEW man. But if you studied your Bible like God tells us to do, you would have already known that. 2 Tim. 2:15.


1,278 posted on 01/14/2012 1:52:34 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: gghd
That prayer sure seems to be giving devine honors to Mary.

First, to pray to her implies that she can hear anyone on earth who calls out to her. That is a divine attribute.

O holy Mary, my Mistress, into thy blessed trust and special blessing, into the bosom of thy tender mercy,

This starts off with looking for blessings and mercy from Mary, rather than God.

this day, every day of my life and at the hour of my death, I commend my soul and body; to thee I entrust all my hopes and consolations, all my trials and miseries, my life and the end of my life,

Then the soul and body are entrusted not to God but to Mary. All hope is placed in Mary rather than Jesus.

that through thy most holy intercession and thy merits, all my actions may be ordered and disposed according to thy will and that of thy divine Son. Amen.

The intercession and merits of Mary replace the intercession and merits of Jesus. Finally it equates the will of Mary to the will of God.

BUT BUT, do you go to church?

Yes.

1,279 posted on 01/14/2012 1:57:35 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: Tramonto

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


1,280 posted on 01/14/2012 2:22:00 PM PST by narses
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To: smvoice

****The Church the BOdy of Christ is ONE NEW MAN, not one man improved upon****

Where did I say the Body of Christ is “one man improved upon”?

I said that the Church did not replace Israel. Replacment would mean that Israel ceased to exist, but that is not the case now is it?

Now that I have had the chance to look over the verse you posted in context, I still don’t see how that verse contradicts what I said, which is what the ? indicated.

Both Jews and Gentiles are sinners and separated from God because of that sin. The Jews believed that they were clean and the Gentiles unclean and because of this they kept themselves separate from the Gentiles.

This new man is the union of the Jew and the Gentile under the new covenant. The verse just before the one you quoted...

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];

and then after the verse you quote:

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

We are united, coheirs and partakers of the promises of Christ, and that is the new Israel.


1,281 posted on 01/14/2012 2:27:45 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
>> It is why protestants hate the history of the Church, they have no place in it.<<

I don’t hate nor do I envy the history of any church. I have however studied how “churches” have drifted away from what the Apostles taught. It’s not a Protestant or Catholic phenomena. It’s all organized religions. One only needs read Revelation 1-3 to understand how God looks at “churches”. He takes out those individuals who have not followed the “church” but have remained faithful to Him even if the “church” has fallen away. Whether Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, or Protestants it matters not. If the apostles didn’t teach it then what they teach can not be relied on. Jesus warned us about the “doctrines of man” and would have made sure the Holy Spirit would have “reminded” the apostles to write what is important for us to know. He knew that human word of mouth would not be reliable. Christ is the head of the church and no other.

1,282 posted on 01/14/2012 2:31:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette; CynicalBear

Then you must not be Catholic. Because that is what it is taught you are: spiritual Israel. Cynical Bear has already given you proof from your own church that the RCC believes and teaches she is spiritual Israel.


1,283 posted on 01/14/2012 2:34:36 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: CynicalBear

It is a doctrine of man that the Church is some invisible collection of believers each on their own island of belief populated by themselves and what they think is the Holy Spirit.


1,284 posted on 01/14/2012 2:39:01 PM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear
I have however studied how “churches” have drifted away from what the Apostles taught. It’s not a Protestant or Catholic phenomena.It’s all organized religions.
Of course, that makes you your own little congregation, all one of you. When you falsely opine that the Catholic Church teaches idolatry, that Sunday attendance at church is a man made tradition, that Easter and Christmas celebrations are pagan, you do remove your opinions from those any reasonably well read student would consider informed. You have bragged about not knowing Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic, about refusing to read what the Catholic Church actually teaches and yet you claim to have "studied" the faith in such a way to be certain of your rightness. Good for you. But don't expect any literate student of Christianity to take you seriously. You might as well join nutballs like Aimmee Semple whatever her name was or the comet dude.



1,285 posted on 01/14/2012 2:39:22 PM PST by narses
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To: smvoice; Jvette; Bill W was a conservative; verga; thesaleboat; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; ...
Then you must not be Catholic.
Well there you go jvette, you must be something else, another "church of one with the one opinion that matters" has been heard from!
1,286 posted on 01/14/2012 2:42:42 PM PST by narses
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To: Tramonto

The quick answer is the Catholic Church says Mary, the mother of Jesus, is a creature like us.

She is now the Queen of Heaven & the Queen Mother. + Pray on it. Mary is the mother of Jesus. He grew in her womb, He nursed at her breast & she cared for Him as only a mother can do.

The prayer you refer to is not a prayer Catholics are obligated to pray. If someone doesn’t like that prayer, they do NOT have to pray it.

There is Divine Mercy & Blessings & then there are mercy & blessings from a creature. Plus a creature can intercede in prayer to God. (That’s a prayer chain.)

The Tag at the end is Thy divine >Son. That’s the key. In Heaven we are all spiritually united with God. = All the prayers = end up with God.

Does the answer make sense? At the end of Days, there will be Heaven or Hell. ALL the Saints will have the ‘will’ of God (& they will NOT be God). The Catholic Church does NOT teach that Mary is equal to Jesus. The Catholic Catechism is on-line and it has a large section about Mary. You might like to read it & you may prefer to ask a Priest about it. You might not like what it says but that’s what it be.

+If someone doesn’t like that prayer, they do NOT have to pray it. Catholics are obligated to pray the ‘Lord’s Prayer’ at Church. (Catholics call it the Our Father.) They have other prayers that are required & they can be found in a Missal.

It’s good you go to Church. I’m going tonight & I’ll miss the big football game. Maybe, there is Merit available by sacrificing the NFL game for Church. I don’t have the nerve to ask a Priest that one!

I’ll be back (said like the Terminator.)


1,287 posted on 01/14/2012 2:47:23 PM PST by gghd
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To: smvoice

The Church teaches that the promises of Christ to Israel are no longer limited to a “race” of people but to ALL people who are now one in Christ. One is no longer born into the promises by their physical birth, but through their spiritual birth at baptism.

Israel is no longer just a physical place, but a spiritual one as well.

That is what the new Israel is, not a replacement of the old, but a fulfillment of the old through the new and everlasting Jesus.

It is just like Jesus, He existed from all time as the Second Person of the Trinity, but not as a human.

In the Incarnation, we have the Ancient united with the new(man). Jesus made humanity into a new creation. Did humans not exist before Jesus?

Geesh, get back to me on this when protestants can agree on it themselves. They are all over the map on this one.


1,288 posted on 01/14/2012 2:50:59 PM PST by Jvette
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To: narses

They can’t even agree on what they believe, but they sure do “know” enough to attack Catholic belief based on what “they” believe.

I know it’s confusing, but then protestantism is a SEA of confusion.


1,289 posted on 01/14/2012 2:53:38 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
Just as we see in Jesus the union of the human with the divine, we see this union in Scriptures, written by humans under the inspiration and guidance of God, and the Church

Your religion had zero to do with writing the scriptures...The scriptures condemns the existence of your Church...

1,290 posted on 01/14/2012 3:01:28 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: presently no screen name

Amen...


1,291 posted on 01/14/2012 3:03:01 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Tramonto; RnMomof7; gghd
btw gghd, this isn't what evangelicals typically say to each other in the "prayer chain".

That's clearly goddess worship...

O holy Mary, my Mistress; thy divine Son.

And what was that son's name again??? No matter...

Protestants would say, Our Lord Jesus, and his mother...

1,292 posted on 01/14/2012 3:08:48 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Tramonto
How can a Catholic read this and not understand that the devotion to and worship of Mary is contrary to Jesus’ own teachings. You can either follow Rome or Christ.

They know it's there, in red letters...They just refuse to accept Jesus' teaching on that issue...Their religion overrules Jesus...

1,293 posted on 01/14/2012 3:11:28 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Jvette
The Holy Spirit, God, is her spouse and her entire life was given over to Him.

Completely false and a perversion of the words of God...

Mary is the mother of Christians, just as Jesus said from the cross and it was in sorrow caused by the death of her Son that the Church was born.

Jesus did not say that his mother was your mother or mine...You are making it up...

The church was created from sorrow of the death of Jesus??? Where do you get this stuff???

1,294 posted on 01/14/2012 3:14:57 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Jvette
>>Jesus’ proclamation from the cross, “Woman, behold your son. Son, behold your mother.”<<

You can’t possibly be serious. Jesus was talking to John.

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

In Hebrew society the parents were taken care of by the offspring. Jesus was making sure that Mary was going to be taken care of. In the following verse we see that it had been part of what He wanted and needed done before He died.

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

No way can anything beyond that can be deduced from the passage or any of the prophecies that were fulfilled by what He suffered and said.

>> if one looks throughout history, one sees that Christians thought of Mary as their mother because of those very words of Jesus.<<

There is no scriptural support for that. Doctrines of man can only be deduced.

1,295 posted on 01/14/2012 3:15:07 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Jvette
Israel is no longer just a physical place, but a spiritual one as well.

Israel was never "just" a physical place. Israel was always about a people of God and the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants, both physically, through Isaac, and spiritually, through the faith by which God accounted him justified.

That is what the new Israel is, not a replacement of the old, but a fulfillment of the old through the new and everlasting Jesus.

Any "new" Israel is exactly what the old Israel demonstrated and more. The faithful Israelite, Jesus, the Messiah, stood in for Israel so that those who place their trust in the Messiah can be justified by the same faith as Abraham as the father of faith was justified and his faith counted as righteousness.

God's promise to Abraham was that through his seed the entire world would be blessed. Through the Messiah's birth, life, death and resurrection, those of faith throughout the world from the beginning of time to the end of it become members of that family of faith and partakers of the covenant God established with Abraham.
1,296 posted on 01/14/2012 3:15:57 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Jvette; CynicalBear

Does Rome claim to be the “New Jerusalem”? The “Eternal City”? The “Holy City”?


1,297 posted on 01/14/2012 3:17:07 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: Jvette
No, I don’t follow Replacement Theology and neither does the Church.

Your religion most certainly does...

The promises to Israel are still the same promises, but we are now partakers of those promises in that Jesus fulfilled them and opened the gates to all, Jews and Gentiles alike.

The promises to Israel have NOT been fulfilled...

1,298 posted on 01/14/2012 3:17:18 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool; Jvette

Thank you very much for that confirmation, Iscool.


1,299 posted on 01/14/2012 3:19:10 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: narses
>>makes it very difficult to accept any of your opinions about<<

My opinions? Do you only try to obfuscate or do you actually have proof to refute what the CCC says?

877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy." Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons. For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop. [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/877.htm]

>>why would you expect anyone with any understanding of true Christianity to take you seriously?<<

You don’t take the CCC seriously?

1,300 posted on 01/14/2012 3:19:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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