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Mary: Mother of God?
What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7

Mary: Mother of God?

This article is prompted by an ad in the Parade Magazine titled: "Mary Mother of God: What All Mankind Should Know." The offer was made for a free pamphlet entitled "Mary Mother of Jesus" with this explanation: "A clear, insightful pamphlet explains the importance of Mary and her role as Mother of God."

This is quite a claim, to say the least! Nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God. I touched on this subject in a series on "Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ" printed recently.

Question: If Mary is the Mother of God, Who, may I ask, is the Father of God? Does God have a Father, and if He does, Who is His Mother?

The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD. It occurs in the Creed of Chalcedon, which was adopted by the council in 451 AD. This was the declaration given at that time: "Born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to the Manhood." The purpose of this statement originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine. The doctrine now emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to. Read Hebrews 10:5 and Phil 2:5-11.

Please refer to Hebrews 10:5 where we see. "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."

The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18, "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".

This doctrine deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things. It is a blasphemous attack on the eternity of God to ever teach that He has a mother. Mary had other children who were normal, physical, sinful human beings. In the case of Jesus Christ, "His human nature had no father and His divine nature had no mother."

It is probably no coincidence that this false doctrine surrounding Mary was born in Ephesus. Please read Acts 19:11-41 and see that Ephesus had a problem with goddess worship. Her name was Diana, Gk. Artemis. You will not have to study very deep to find the similarities between the goddess Diana and the Roman Catholic goddess, Mary. It should be noted that the Mary of the 1st century and the Mary of the 20th century are not the same. Mary of the 1st century was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah. Mary of the 20th century is a goddess created by the Roman Catholic Church. A simple comparison of what the Bible teaches about Mary and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about her will reveal two different Marys. Mary is not the "Mother of God." If she were she would be GOD! There is only one true, eternal God. He was not born of a woman. Any teaching on any subject should be backed up by the word of God. If it cannot be supported by Scriptures, it is false doctrine.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; calvinismisdead; divinity; humanity; ignoranceisbliss; mariolatry; mary; motherofgod; nestorianheresy; nestorians; perpetualvirginity; theotokos
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To: narses

1,701 posted on 01/18/2012 11:24:34 PM PST by Tramonto (Draft Palin)
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To: metmom

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, “I never knew you” from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.


1,702 posted on 01/18/2012 11:31:10 PM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin
Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, “I never knew you” from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

Granted I do not have the 'catholic' original Latin (cough cough) writing of this 'sola scripture', so old King James will have to suffice. This 'sola scripture' you reference comes in chapter 7 of Matthew which begins with the 'command' of judge not lest ye be judged... follows with verse 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the *law* and the prophets. (Notice Christ Himself made the writings of the prophets one and the same as the 'Gospel'. Imagine that from Moses to Malachi the prophets, are the 'Gospel'.

Then verse 15 Christ WARNS Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves..... (I am not going to type the whole chapter but one 'sola scripture' does NOT stand on its own.)

verse 21 Not every on that saith unto Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful *WORKS*?

verse 23 the 'sola scripture' referenced And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.'

SO it does not FIT the notion that the 'deity' of Christ was the subject or the object of cause for being told to 'depart from Me, as these all claimed to be doing the 'Lord's works'.

1,703 posted on 01/18/2012 11:58:26 PM PST by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: Just mythoughts
Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

So, you want to split hairs over how Jesus Christ will deny that He knows someone after they speak against the Holy Ghost by saying the Holy Ghost did not do what Christ promised the Holy Ghost would do? How typical indeed of all those who worship The Most Holy Self

It's straight foward:

James said, “... not by faith only”.

Anyone who thinks James is wrong, that James lied or that James was misquoted, is saying that the Holy Spirit did not lead James or did not oversee and ensure the Truth of the Scriptures.

Anyone who says the Holy Spirit did not guide the Apostles and insure that the Scriptures are not in error is calling Jesus Christ a liar.

Anyone who calls Jesus Christ a liar is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God from God, incapable of telling a lie. Obviously, when someone insists that a particular thing that Christ promised is a lie, they are calling Christ a liar whether they realize that or not.

When someone goes even further and blatantly calls Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is present in the bread and wine when we remember Him, they are deliberately denying the deity of Christ by directly calling Christ a liar.

For those who claim to have once been Catholic but obviously have no knowledge of what the Catholic Church really teaches and want to split haris over "anathema":

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,704 posted on 01/19/2012 12:21:43 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin
Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

I find it most helpful to know the 'subject' and to whom, when, where, what, and why Christ instructed... That means who was Christ talking to when He gave this instruction? Well, according to verse 24 of Matthew 12 the Pharisees heard and saw the 'WORKS' of Christ and said, "This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebus the prince of the devils." Christ KNEW their thoughts and said unto them..... again I can only guess the Catholic Bible has the rest of the verses which leads up to Christ telling them and us what about a 'specific' time appointed wherein those that 'refuse' to allow the Holy Spirit to speak is the unpardonable sin. I am guessing that I will be required to point to this pronouncement, so it is found in Mark 13:11 and this is the only unpardonable sin, to refuse the Holy Spirit to speak when delivered up before the religious authorities.

So, you want to split hairs over how Jesus Christ will deny that He knows someone after they speak against the Holy Ghost by saying the Holy Ghost did not do what Christ promised the Holy Ghost would do? How typical indeed of all those who worship The Most Holy Self

IF quoting Christ is now accused as hair splitting then so be it, I am NOT intimitated by traditions of man that take Scripture and cut keys to open doors of their doctrines. I added nothing nor took away to the WORD Christ spoke in regard to those He would be telling to get lost because they made up their own doctrines.

It's straight foward: James said, “... not by faith only”. Anyone who thinks James is wrong, that James lied or that James was misquoted, is saying that the Holy Spirit did not lead James or did not oversee and ensure the Truth of the Scriptures. Anyone who says the Holy Spirit did not guide the Apostles and insure that the Scriptures are not in error is calling Jesus Christ a liar. Anyone who calls Jesus Christ a liar is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God from God, incapable of telling a lie. Obviously, when someone insists that a particular thing that Christ promised is a lie, they are calling Christ a liar whether they realize that or not. When someone goes even further and blatantly calls Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is present in the bread and wine when we remember Him, they are deliberately denying the deity of Christ by directly calling Christ a liar. For those who claim to have once been Catholic but obviously have no knowledge of what the Catholic Church really teaches and want to split haris over "anathema": Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment. Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God. So, you want to split hairs over how Jesus Christ will deny that He knows someone after they speak against the Holy Ghost by saying the Holy Ghost did not do what Christ promised the Holy Ghost would do? How typical indeed of all those who worship The Most Holy Self It's straight foward: James said, “... not by faith only”. Anyone who thinks James is wrong, that James lied or that James was misquoted, is saying that the Holy Spirit did not lead James or did not oversee and ensure the Truth of the Scriptures. Anyone who says the Holy Spirit did not guide the Apostles and insure that the Scriptures are not in error is calling Jesus Christ a liar. Anyone who calls Jesus Christ a liar is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God from God, incapable of telling a lie. Obviously, when someone insists that a particular thing that Christ promised is a lie, they are calling Christ a liar whether they realize that or not. When someone goes even further and blatantly calls Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is present in the bread and wine when we remember Him, they are deliberately denying the deity of Christ by directly calling Christ a liar. For those who claim to have once been Catholic but obviously have no knowledge of what the Catholic Church really teaches and want to split haris over "anathema": Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment. Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

I do NOT disagree with what James wrote. Our 'works' are what clothes us 'Spiritually' speaking, when we return to the Maker that sent us to take this flesh journey and our works represents the depth/breath of faith.

Ah, fortunately for all God's children only the Father will judge. AND an earthly church has NO power to save or judge, they are suppose to 'feed MY sheep', and Christ was NOT promoting 'soup kitchens', He was speaking about 'food' for the soul.

Sometimes it is impossible to figure out who or what is the object of worship, a geographical location, a church, a statue, or some man's pious stature. Only God saves, and He said that it would be through 'belief' in His only begotten Son. The Holy Spirit is our Comforter given us until the return of our Lord and Saviour. AND the Holy Spirit is NOT going to do anything that goes against what is Written.

Christ was a 'protestant' first, as it was the 'religious' authority that wanted His head for upsetting their treasury.

1,705 posted on 01/19/2012 1:03:18 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: metmom
Blah Blah Blah, take it up with your Prot brothers and sister that say you are wrong. He's not wrong. Catholics and Catholicism are.

Okay pay attention, I am quoting PROTESTANTS, your own people. Why are they wrong and your right? And if they are wrong about this what else might they be wrong about?

these are people that actually studied the Greek and have a piece of paper that says they are smart.

Right. People with a BS, MS, and a Piled higher and Deeper.

Once again these are PRTESTANTS, I am only quoting people that you would normally agree with. I am so glad that you are showing your true colors.

1,706 posted on 01/19/2012 2:15:11 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: Rashputin; smvoice; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; Iscool; presently no screen name; ...
Excerpts from the prayer by Pope Pius XII to Mary.

we cast ourselves into your arms

1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. (When did we need to replace God with Mary?) Those who continue to deny the Christ can fool themselves however they like.

confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Hebrews 4:15-16 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (once again Catholics replacing Christ with Mary) Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like

O crystal fountain of faith

Romans 12:3 according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. or "a measure of faith." (but Mary is the “fountain of faith” for Catholics) Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like but..

Lily of all holiness

1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (for Catholics however, “all holiness” is given to Mary) Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like but…

Conqueress of evil and death

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. (but Catholics claim it was Mary who conquered death) Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like but…

Convert the wicked

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; (Catholics have even replaced the Holy Spirit with Mary) Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like but…

Statement by catholic Bishop Liqouri “.......We often more quickly obtain what we ask by calling on the name of Mary than by invoking that of Jesus.....” She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help

Those who continue to deny Christ can fool themselves however they like but …

Matthew 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1,707 posted on 01/19/2012 5:12:20 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
Believe in "Faith Alone"?

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,708 posted on 01/19/2012 5:29:49 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin

It’s time to change your battery. Did the vatican come out with an infallible one yet for their robots?


1,709 posted on 01/19/2012 5:56:58 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
Titus 3:9but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11>/b> Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,710 posted on 01/19/2012 6:04:35 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: CynicalBear

The god of catholicsm is their goddess Mary.

Excerpts from the prayer by Pope Pius XII to Mary:
She...is our Salvation, our Life, our Hope, our Counsel, our Refuge, our Help”

We cast ourselves into your arms

Confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

O crystal fountain of faith

Lily of all holiness

Conqueress of evil and death

Their pope JP II’s personal motto, “Totus tuus sum, Maria,” or “I am all yours, Mary”.

The Vatican/RCC is satan’s empire.The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan.

Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

Is12: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Is13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Is14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


1,711 posted on 01/19/2012 6:22:04 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: verga
Blah Blah Blah, take it up with your Prot brothers and sister that say you are wrong. these are peoople that actually studied the Greek and have a piece of paper that says they are smart.

Studying Greek or anything else doesn't make you smart...It makes you more educated...And if you are smart from the get-go, you will be better at getting educated...

1,712 posted on 01/19/2012 6:39:10 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Rashputin; Just mythoughts
It's straight foward: James said, “... not by faith only”.

Cherry picking a few words out of one verse is a dangerous route to go for correct Bible interpretation.

Saying that salvation is by works contradicts chapters of verses that say otherwise. It's denying everything Paul wrote. Same for what Peter said in his preaching in Acts.

Jesus Himself said that all we had to do was believe to be saved. Jesus said that to do the work of God who sent Him is to believe in the one He sent (Jesus). Those verses have been provided upthread.

So the charge of calling Jesus a liar can go both ways. It's not wise to lob that charge in the first place if all you're working on is four cherry picked words.

Galatians 3 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

1,713 posted on 01/19/2012 6:41:29 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Rashputin
James said, “... not by faith only”.

I believe that...I believe Jesus wanted James to write that...And I also believe

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why don't you ever quote that verse??? Can't deal with it??? You can't reconcile that verse along with the verses in James???

When someone goes even further and blatantly calls Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is present in the bread and wine when we remember Him, they are deliberately denying the deity of Christ by directly calling Christ a liar.

Hardly...We are calling your religion a liar...That cracker that you bow down to is NOT deity...Most Catholics don't even believe that nonsense...

1,714 posted on 01/19/2012 6:46:20 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: metmom
Don't accept the extremely clear meaning of James 2:24 and, " ... not by faith only"?


Titus  3:9but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,715 posted on 01/19/2012 6:46:20 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: metmom

IF one ‘believes’ they will demonstrate that in doing/working the will of the Heavenly Father. It is not what we do/work that ‘saves’ us, but it is what we do/work that demonstrates our faith that clothes us when we return to the Maker.

Faith is demonstrated by works and is NOT what ‘saves’. Not one item of our flesh world is going with us when we return to the Maker. Everyone has the same opportunity to be judged upon what they did to demonstrate they believed.

Abraham was offered ‘salvation’ while Christ was in the tomb, so that would make him a Christian before even those that ‘believed’ upon Christ after the resurrection.


1,716 posted on 01/19/2012 6:54:02 AM PST by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: Rashputin
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

1,717 posted on 01/19/2012 6:55:29 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool
Studying Greek or anything else doesn't make you smart...It makes you more educated...And if you are smart from the get-go, you will be better at getting educated...

So the Protestant ministers Scholars, are they rught or wrong about their interpretation of Petera vs Petros? If you feel they are wrong why is your interpretation better?

1,718 posted on 01/19/2012 7:39:28 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: Iscool
Most Catholics don't even believe that nonsense...

Do you have a source for this? And if they don't beleive it why would they call themselves Catholic?

1,719 posted on 01/19/2012 7:42:27 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: CynicalBear
Titus 3:9but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,720 posted on 01/19/2012 7:50:48 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin; presently no screen name; caww; daniel1212; JoeProBono; RnMomof7; metmom; marbren; ...

It’s time for you to show where anyone denied the deity of Christ. Show your proof or be considered untrue.


1,721 posted on 01/19/2012 7:55:08 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
All the deniers read #1679, all of them are upset by the Truth.

Don't accept the extremely clear meaning of James 2:24 and, " ... not by faith only"? Titus 3:9 but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,722 posted on 01/19/2012 8:03:21 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin; smvoice; HossB86; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; Iscool; presently no screen name
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

Why do you keep denying Jesus words?

1,723 posted on 01/19/2012 8:15:00 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: verga
Okay pay attention, I am quoting PROTESTANTS, your own people.

MY own people? How would you know who *my own people* are?

Presuming a bit much, aren't you?

Why are they wrong and your you're you right?

Fixed it for you. How's that education working out for you?

And if they are wrong about this what else might they be wrong about?

I don't know because I haven't read anything else they've written.

Once again these are PRTESTANTS,[sic] I am only quoting people that you would normally agree with.

You think so, do you? Again, how do you know that I'd normally agree with them? Did I ever state as much or are you presuming to know what I'm thinking?

I am so glad that you are showing your true colors.

LOL!!!

1,724 posted on 01/19/2012 8:18:17 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Rashputin; presently no screen name
Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

Is taking verses out of context and misapplying them the default setting for Catholics?

That's sitting on judgment on another for sure. When Jesus used those words, it was in this setting, not the contrived one presented in the last few posts.

Who gave Catholics authority to take Jesus words and speak for Him and misapply them as if they were truth

Matthew 7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

These were the people those words were intended for, not someone some anonymous internet poster decides to apply them to.

1,725 posted on 01/19/2012 8:25:05 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
Hundreds if not thousands of posts over the past six months have spelled out the Truth in detail including abundant Scripture citations. Those who whine and play diversion, Straw Man, and Red Herring games now did the same through all those detailed posts. They cannot accept the Truth because they worship, The Most High Self, claim they are infallible, interpret Scripture to suit themselves, call Christian religious holidays like Christmas and Easter pagan holidays, and even call Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is really present in the Eucharist when Christ clearly said He was really present therein.

Don't accept the extremely clear meaning of James 2:24 and, " ... not by faith only"?

Titus 3:9    but avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

1,726 posted on 01/19/2012 8:31:54 AM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: Rashputin
>> Don't accept the extremely clear meaning of James 2:24 and, " ... not by faith only"?

Why keep trying to deceive people? Use the whole verse and then Jesus own words as to what that work is.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29

To continue the attempt to deceive is dishonoring what Jesus said. It’s also calling others like Paul and the Holy Spirit who guided them to write liars.

Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"

Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

So you see. Its faith and belief in Christ which saves. Jesus explained it clearly. The works of God is belief in Christ. The works of man do not save.

To try to lead people to deny what Jesus said is dangerous.

Luke 17:2 It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

1,727 posted on 01/19/2012 9:13:43 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

Dodge, deek, and duck, but don’t answer the question. You are very good at that.


1,728 posted on 01/19/2012 9:32:46 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: verga

From someone who did not address as little as ONE comment of my post.

Hysterical.....


1,729 posted on 01/19/2012 9:52:43 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: verga

*deek*?

REALLY?????


1,730 posted on 01/19/2012 9:54:00 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear

You just don’t understand the power of the one-size-fits-all polemic when you are from the infallible church?


1,731 posted on 01/19/2012 10:17:37 AM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: CynicalBear; Rashputin; presently no screen name; caww; daniel1212; JoeProBono; RnMomof7; ...
It’s time for you to show where anyone denied the deity of Christ. Show your proof or be considered untrue.

Since that post has been directed at me several times, I'm SURE I've asked the same thing you did. for proof of it. I'd also be interested in seeing the links to back up the accusation.

Doesn't the Catholic church teach something about bearing false witness? Or is that another commandment that doesn't mean what is says? Like the second one of the idea that Jesus would not send someone to hell for just for stealing.

Golly, I never realized that the Ten Commandments were so optional. I'm surprised that Catholicism and Catholics treat them so lightly.

1,732 posted on 01/19/2012 10:32:07 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
*deek*? REALLY?????

Your ignorance of pugilism is showing.

1,733 posted on 01/19/2012 11:56:38 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: metmom
From someone who did not address as little as ONE comment of my post.

Hysterical.....

Almost as hysterical as the number times you refused to tell us your level of expertise in Greek. almost as hysterical as the number of time I have asked you to explain why we should take your word over protestant scholars and ministers (which you still have failed to answer with anything that made the remotest sense.)Almost as hysterical as your complete lack of knowledge of Biblical exegesis.

1,734 posted on 01/19/2012 12:01:55 PM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: daniel1212
>> You just don’t understand the power of the one-size-fits-all polemic when you are from the infallible church?<<

LOL that’s perhaps the message we should take from that. I quess if the “church” trumps what Jesus says it works. Taking Jesus words as ultimate truth in opposition to the “church” is the reason we don’t understand the “church”? Hmmmm.

1,735 posted on 01/19/2012 12:04:11 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

So far I still have to take the accusation as a falsehood.


1,736 posted on 01/19/2012 12:05:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Re Luke 22:24: The Lord here is not rejecting authority, which Scripture establishes, both positional and spiritual, but is rejecting the presupposition that the former constitute greatness.

Pastors are definitely not to lord it over others as after the manner of the Gentiles/the world which the Lord referred to, and position does not means preeminence in the sight of God, rather than one that serves in faith, and thus “every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.” (1 Corinthians 3:8)

There is the parable of a wealthy pastor with a large flock, and one night the pastor had a dream. In his dream he saw many different sized crowns hovering over his congregation - from big crowns to a miniature sized crown.

As crowns began to descend and rest upon certain members, the pastor, being mindful of his large congregation and the esteem it brought him among others, presumed the largest crown would rest upon him. However, to his chagrin it was the smallest crown that rested upon his head, while the largest crown descended upon the head of a little old lady - “holy Helen” some called her - who spent her days in fastings and prayers for the pastor and the flock - though that was unbeknown to most.

The pastor was perplexed and was somewhat offended, and so he asked the Lord “Why?” To which the answer came, “Listen. The reason I am still using YOU is because of HER.”

After the Lord Himself, i see the model for manifest leadership being Moses and Paul, both of whom were revelators of covenants with the single most contributors to their respective testaments (i don’t buy the JEDP hypothesis). And who were willing to be damned if it could secure the salvation of their people, and labored day and night more than others in service to God on their behalf, though they were largely rejected because of it. (And Paul’s words in such places as 2 Cor. 11-12 regarding that were not due to feelings of inferiority, as some charge, but was an heartfelt attempt to rescue his deceived flock from self-proclaimed apostles deceivers by manifesting who really was an apostle and who really care for their soul).

But it is clear in Scripture that God upholds the principal of authority, both in the civil realm (1Tim. 2:2) as well and the home and church, as the Trinity itself examples. (1Cor. 11:3) And as pastoral position is one of authority, thus women are excluded from that function over men (1Tim. 2:12) though not as being spiritually inferior in Christ.

Those who are in such position have a commission to care for the flock, and which includes discipline, in union with the flock, in manifest subjection upon Scripture and the qualifications for such, and not as an infallible autocratic leaders.

Thus, in that context, believers are enjoined to obey them that oversee them, (Heb. 13:17) and pastor Titus was to “speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.” (Titus 2:15) and likewise Timothy was to “reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2Tim. 4:2) For as in a family, which pastoring is likened to, (1Tim. 3:4,5) the same hand that hugs must sometime spank. But no one can claim authority unless they are Scripturally established, in conformity to Scripture and its qualifications for establishing such.


1,737 posted on 01/19/2012 12:09:03 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: verga
Your ignorance of pugilism is showing.

Your ignorance of SPELLING is showing.

Try again.....

1,738 posted on 01/19/2012 12:25:42 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
Taking Jesus words as ultimate truth in opposition to the “church” is the reason we don’t understand the “church”? Hmmmm.

Go figure.

1,739 posted on 01/19/2012 12:28:19 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
So far I still have to take the accusation as a falsehood.

Of course you do. Anything that contrived out of nothing usually is.

It gets back to what I said on an earlier thread.

Their tactic is to discredit us by accusing us of something so blatantly wrong and then state that since we're wrong about that, we can't be trusted to be right about anything else.

That way, the lurkers, and any who really don't know any better, might be inclined to believe them. That's why we have to keep pointing out the fallacy of their accusations.

It's pretty sad when you have a product you can't sell on its own merits but only by trying to convince the prospective customer that the other product is so defective that yours is the only option left.

1,740 posted on 01/19/2012 12:33:20 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
James said, “... not by faith only”. Anyone who thinks James is wrong, that James lied or that James was misquoted, is saying that the Holy Spirit did not lead James or did not oversee and ensure the Truth of the Scriptures.

Anyone who says the Holy Spirit did not guide the Apostles and insure that the Scriptures are not in error is calling Jesus Christ a liar.
Anyone who calls Jesus Christ a liar is denying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, God from God, incapable of telling a lie. Obviously, when someone insists that a particular thing that Christ promised is a lie, they are calling Christ a liar whether they realize that or not.

When someone goes even further and blatantly calls Christ Himself a liar by denying that He is present in the bread and wine when we remember Him, they are deliberately denying the deity of Christ by directly calling Christ a liar.

Obviously, those who claim individual personal infallible interpretation of all Scriptures are claiming to be doing mighty works in His name every time they spin themselves a new interpretation of Scripture to suit a personal predisposition. Personal predispositions like the Watchtower garbage of calling the Christian holidays of Christmas and Easter pagan festivals. Equally obviously, then, such folks are exactly those who Matthew 7:21-23 is talking about no matter which individual who claims to be infallible pretends those verses do not apply because they don't want them to apply. That's typical of those who cannot surrender to Christ since they have dedicated themselves to the worship of, "The Most High and Holy Self" they see in the mirror.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid:
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they deny is God.

have a nice day

1,741 posted on 01/19/2012 2:55:57 PM PST by Rashputin (Obama stark, raving, mad, and even his security people know it.)
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To: daniel1212
>> Re Luke 22:24: The Lord here is not rejecting authority,<<

I would contend that He was at least to the extent that there was to be no hierarchy (ie rulership) within the church. I find it interesting that you haven’t given any passage that outlines any hierarchy. That is of course because there is none. The church as Jesus set it up has no hierarchy or rulership other than Him. Here are some thoughts on the verses you sited.

1 Timothy 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

That was referencing strictly secular leadership.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

There is no hierarchy (ie secular type rulers) in the church. All stewardshipo positions mentioned are the “servant” type positions. All Greek words used indicate those responsible for teaching etc are those who are older (elder) more mature in the faith. Even when a difference is to be taken to “the church” it means to be taken to the “group of believers” as a whole rather than to some “ruler” or “headship” if you will.

1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

That lines up with the Christ is the head of the husband and the husband is head of the wife. There can be no assumption of leadership within the church from that.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

2 Tim. 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

All believers are given that directive.

1,742 posted on 01/19/2012 4:14:00 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
I find it interesting that you haven’t given any passage that outlines any hierarchy. ..There is no hierarchy (ie secular type rulers) in the church

An outline is not needed, as the fact that there are positions of authority evidences they had authority over someone.

As referenced, "Obey [peithō=to assent, yield to, comply with, listen to...] them that have the rule over [hēgeomai=chief, governor, chief, account, leadership..] you, and submit [hupeikō=yield] yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. " (Hebrews 13:17, cf. 7,24)

The word for "rule over" is the same as used for "chief" in Luk 22:26: But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

Even if you make the words for "obey," "submit" and "rule" to signify something less less authoritarian then they convey, here you still have two classes of souls, one of which is enjoined to yield to another, even though such submission is conditional upon submission to God and Scripture

"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. " (Hebrews 13:7)

Here again one class is leading, and another following leader who sacrificial served Christ (likely martyrs).

"Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. " (Hebrews 13:24)

All stewardship positions mentioned are the “servant” type positions.

Certainly it does, and Jesus was the greatest, but you are disallowing being a servant from being a leader and having (conditional) authority over something and someone. You are defining hierarchy to mean more than it basically does, that of organization of people in which their are different positions. You cannot disallow leadership, which certainly was in the N.T. church.

The apostles certainly had spiritual and positional authority under God in the church, and thus they disciplined souls and threatened to use their spiritual rod of correction on false leadership and those disobedient to Scripture.(1Cor. 4:18-21; 2cor. 13:2-4

And being a pastor has less authority than the above, and true authority does not rest on formal decent but conformity to Scripture and its requirements for such, yet they were pastors overseeing a flock, serving God and others by pastoring. (1Pt. 5:2)

"And God hath set some in the church, first [prōton=first; beginning] apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers.." (1 Corinthians 12:28)

That lines up with the Christ is the head of the husband and the husband is head of the wife. There can be no assumption of leadership within the church from that.

No presumption, but having bishops [episkopos=superintendent; overseer] certainly assumes there is a class of souls to oversee. The point is that if they are leaders then their is leadership and thus there are followers.

And pastoring the home is an example of pastoring a church. "..if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:5) There is a balance here, and i hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

1,743 posted on 01/19/2012 7:59:15 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: daniel1212
>>An outline is not needed, as the fact that there are positions of authority evidences they had authority over someone.<<

Yes there was in reference to the secular world we live in but not in the “church”.

>>and thus they disciplined souls and threatened to use their spiritual rod of correction on false leadership and those disobedient to Scripture. (1Cor. 4:18-21)<<

You certainly read that differently than I do. Look at what Paul says.

1 Corinthians 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. 18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. 21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

The entire passage starting in the previous chapter is a dispute about who is supposed to be a leader or who has power and authority. He begins in Chapter 3 mentioning the contention that some say they believe one man is the leader and others say another man is leader. Then in Chapter 4 he begins with this.

1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

He calls them “stewards”, someone who is responsible for maintaining the purity of “the mysteries of God”. He’s not claiming authority over people but simply the responsibility of maintaining the purity of the Gospel. He then continues to show that they are not to think in terms of “authority” over people.

6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

There was obviously a problem already with people trying to establish a hierarchy of “authority” over people. Paul was saying that’s not the way it’s supposed to be. He then tells who actually has the power.

20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

The “authority” and “power” is not in the man or leader but in God. The “leadership” is only a “steward” of that “purity of the word” handed down from God. I believe the statement that you contend shows Paul believes gives them “authority” or “leadership” is actually a statement questioning whether the Corinthians actually want a hierarchy which is not authorized and contrary to what the church is to be or if they should come in “the spirit of love, and in the spirit of meekness” as Christ told them when He said “but with you it is not so” and told them that the greatest will be the least.

I believe that in Chapters 3 and 4 Paul is showing that the attitude that there are somehow “leaders” who have “authority” or “positions of power” is wrong. History has shown that the concept of “leadership” is not part of the church. The statement “power corrupts” has been proven over and over and Christ meant for that “power” to be His alone and any attempt of men to grasp any of that “power” is contrary to what He taught.

The responsibility to faithfully maintain and spread the pure message is in the “elected” elders who become stewards of the “message” if you will but not stewards of men.

1,744 posted on 01/20/2012 7:54:24 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

The reproof was by one in authority, and its nature was not against leaders having such, which other quoted texts support, Scripturally exercised as the apostles exampled as sacrificial servants, but against thinking of men beyond what is written, leading to sectarianism, primarily cleaving to a leader or church at the expense of Christ according to what is written, which is the issue that should now be focused on here.


1,745 posted on 01/20/2012 5:16:31 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: Al Hitan

So, do you believe the Bible gives the Pope legitimacy or, instead, that the Pope gives the Bible it’s legitimacy?


1,746 posted on 01/20/2012 8:38:59 PM PST by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: RnMomof7

I want you to know that I saved your comments about the Worship of Mary to my favorites. I have never read a better dispute of it in my life. So clear and your use of scripture to support your stand is amazing. I am constantly debating with catholics and I found this to be so useful. I read your bio and you are a very smart lady.
Mary


1,747 posted on 08/10/2013 8:25:00 AM PDT by merrymerry (Mother Mary,)
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To: editor-surveyor

Did you realize that there is a huge picture of Mary in the front floor of the Vatican when you enter that is with her heart on her chest visible and it is pierced and shedding blood. That is plain and simple as to what the agenda is for the RCC to lift her up to the level of Jesus. They can not deny they are trying to do it with that one picture in the Vatican floor


1,748 posted on 08/10/2013 8:25:01 AM PDT by merrymerry (Mother Mary,)
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To: Shadowstrike

Catholics also say they don’t bow down to statues too but they just rename it and say they are bowing down to God. The scriptures say to not bow down to any graven image and it does not especially say it is okay if you say it is God instead. So, you saying you don’t worship Mary is just a play on words. You pray to her. The same thing as worship. It is also heresy to pray to her


1,749 posted on 08/10/2013 8:25:01 AM PDT by merrymerry (Mother Mary,)
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To: merrymerry

>> “Did you realize that there is a huge picture of Mary in the front floor of the Vatican...” <<

.
Do you not realize that I have too much love and respect for Yehova to ever enter his enemy’s palace?


1,750 posted on 08/10/2013 10:51:54 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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