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Mary: Mother of God?
What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7

Mary: Mother of God?

This article is prompted by an ad in the Parade Magazine titled: "Mary Mother of God: What All Mankind Should Know." The offer was made for a free pamphlet entitled "Mary Mother of Jesus" with this explanation: "A clear, insightful pamphlet explains the importance of Mary and her role as Mother of God."

This is quite a claim, to say the least! Nowhere in the Bible is Mary said to be the mother of God. I touched on this subject in a series on "Mary Co-Redeemer with Christ" printed recently.

Question: If Mary is the Mother of God, Who, may I ask, is the Father of God? Does God have a Father, and if He does, Who is His Mother?

The phrase "Mother of God" originated in the Council of Ephesus, in the year 431 AD. It occurs in the Creed of Chalcedon, which was adopted by the council in 451 AD. This was the declaration given at that time: "Born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to the Manhood." The purpose of this statement originally was meant to emphasize the deity of Christ over against the teaching of the Nestorians whose teaching involved a dual-natured Jesus. Their teaching was that the person born of Mary was only a man who was then indwelt by God. The title "Mother of God" was used originally to counter this false doctrine. The doctrine now emphasizes the person of Mary rather than the deity of Jesus as God incarnate. Mary certainly did not give birth to God. In fact, Mary did not give birth to the divinity of Christ. Mary only gave birth to the humanity of Jesus. The only thing Jesus got from Mary was a body. Every Human Being has received a sinful nature from their parents with one exception: Jesus was not human. He was divine God in a flesh body. This is what Mary gave birth to. Read Hebrews 10:5 and Phil 2:5-11.

Please refer to Hebrews 10:5 where we see. "...Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me."

The body of Jesus was prepared by God. In Matthew 1:18, "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

The divine nature of Jesus existed from before eternity, and this cannot be said of Mary Jesus never called her "mother". He called her "woman".

This doctrine deifies Mary and humanizes Jesus. Mary is presented as stronger that Christ, more mature and more powerful that Christ. Listen to this statement by Rome: "He came to us through Mary, and we must go to Him through her." The Bible plainly states that God is the Creator of all things. It is a blasphemous attack on the eternity of God to ever teach that He has a mother. Mary had other children who were normal, physical, sinful human beings. In the case of Jesus Christ, "His human nature had no father and His divine nature had no mother."

It is probably no coincidence that this false doctrine surrounding Mary was born in Ephesus. Please read Acts 19:11-41 and see that Ephesus had a problem with goddess worship. Her name was Diana, Gk. Artemis. You will not have to study very deep to find the similarities between the goddess Diana and the Roman Catholic goddess, Mary. It should be noted that the Mary of the 1st century and the Mary of the 20th century are not the same. Mary of the 1st century was the virgin who gave birth to the Messiah. Mary of the 20th century is a goddess created by the Roman Catholic Church. A simple comparison of what the Bible teaches about Mary and what the Roman Catholic Church teaches about her will reveal two different Marys. Mary is not the "Mother of God." If she were she would be GOD! There is only one true, eternal God. He was not born of a woman. Any teaching on any subject should be backed up by the word of God. If it cannot be supported by Scriptures, it is false doctrine.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; calvinismisdead; divinity; humanity; ignoranceisbliss; mariolatry; mary; motherofgod; nestorianheresy; nestorians; perpetualvirginity; theotokos
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To: metmom

So....YOPIOS is alive and well in the Catholic church.

I would LOVE to see a site that spells which verses they must submit to and which are open to their own interpretation.

Can’t be that difficult as a simple search on the Vatican website “Prayers to Mary” took 5 seconds.

Yes, I’m confused!!


951 posted on 01/13/2012 3:40:07 PM PST by bonfire
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To: metmom

***Temptation to sin is not sin. It’s simply temptation. When we refuse to yield to the temptation, we have achieved victory over it and not sinned.

It is sin only when we yield and engage.***

Agreed and if you read my post, you will see that I did indeed say that Jesus was tempted, but that He had no urge or inclination to sin.

***Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.***

Yet without sin. Jesus can sympathize with our weaknesses, but He has no part in our falling into temptation, i.e. sinning.


952 posted on 01/13/2012 3:42:44 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
The physical sacrifice was ended, the fruits of it are eternal. It is not that the sacrifice is ongoing, but that it’s effect is eternal.

That's not what the RCC teaches.

That's the whole rationale of the mass, participating in the continuing, ongoing sacrifice of Christ.

953 posted on 01/13/2012 3:43:21 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: bonfire

In a nutshell....

A Catholic must believe that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise, we are to reject.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise is to be rejected.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus was without sin. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise is to be rejected.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus is Truly Present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. Any interpretation of Scripture which says otherwise is to be rejected.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose on the third day. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise is to be rejected.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus ascended bodily into heaven. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise is to be rejected.

A Catholic must believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Apostles and His Church to all Truth. Any interpretation of Scripture that says otherwise is to be rejected.

These are all explicitly or implicitly found in Scripture which the Church has proclaimed and protected since the beginning.


954 posted on 01/13/2012 3:51:09 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
If Jesus was not truly man, then scripture is worthless and not to be believed. John 1:14 doesn’t say He put on flesh or that He wore flesh. It says he became flesh. I He wasn’t truly man He would not have been able to be the perfect sacrifice for man. Even your CC would be shocked to here you claim He was not truly man.
955 posted on 01/13/2012 3:51:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

Thus the continuous sacrifice of the crucifix vs the empty cross.


956 posted on 01/13/2012 3:51:54 PM PST by bonfire
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To: D-fendr
>> Perhaps you wish someday to join the muslims in destroying the art of the Church.<<

Nope. People can do as they please. I will however keep warning people and pointing out what scripture says.

957 posted on 01/13/2012 3:53:51 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

The Mass does not continue the Sacrifice on the Cross. Rather it makes that Perfect Sacrifice present to those who have lived after the once for all Sacrifice of the Cross. That is why it is called the unbloody sacrifice.

If one is going to try to speak for what is taught by the Church, at least try to read about and understand it before doing so.

The full theology of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist is lengthy and easily found. To try to confine it to a few words is impossible and I do not like to cut and paste.

Let it just be said that your understanding of it is lacking.


958 posted on 01/13/2012 4:00:19 PM PST by Jvette
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To: gghd
>>Jesus Christ gave us ‘Holy Mother Church’<<

Catholics can’t even get that right.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

I'm already in the church Jesus established.

959 posted on 01/13/2012 4:00:42 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

***He would not have been able to be the perfect sacrifice for man.***

What made Him the “perfect sacrifice”?

I never said He was not truly man and I am dumbfounded by the attempt to once again, twist the argument and deflect from the heresies proposed here by Protestants.

Man does not sin by being tempted, man sins by succumbing to temptation. Christ never succumbed to temptation.


960 posted on 01/13/2012 4:03:42 PM PST by Jvette
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To: D-fendr

I love and appreciate religious art. In fact, I collect pieces here and there. The difference is kneeling, bowing down and praying before them which is offensive.

FWIW.


961 posted on 01/13/2012 4:04:00 PM PST by bonfire
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To: metmom; Jvette
That's the whole rationale of the mass, participating in the continuing, ongoing sacrifice of Christ.

Everything is one NOW with God who is outside of time. The Incarnation,Moses crossing the red sea, the crucifixion,our deaths etc.. is all one eternal never ending event with God-nothing ever starts and ends being outside of time.

This is why the Sacrifice is never ending.

Gotta run. Date night with wife.

962 posted on 01/13/2012 4:04:10 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: Jvette
I can’t believe we are going down this road speaking of Jesus and Christianity.

That's the road bible believing Christians take...It is wasn't for that 'road' none of us would know Jesus...

963 posted on 01/13/2012 4:05:16 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: metmom

Or heresy?


964 posted on 01/13/2012 4:06:03 PM PST by bonfire
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To: Jvette
Honestly, you are saying that Jesus was tempted to sin?

The bible says Jesus suffered temptation...What's that mean to you???

965 posted on 01/13/2012 4:07:27 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool

Had there never been a word written about Jesus, the whole world would still have known of Him.

After this conversation with the protestants here, I don’t think most of them have the first clue about Jesus.


966 posted on 01/13/2012 4:09:25 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
>>Why did He change Simon’s name to rock?<<

Because he was being hard headed? He was the one who denied Jesus three times and argued a lot after all.

The church is built of Gentiles. Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles.

967 posted on 01/13/2012 4:09:36 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool

Tempted By sin, never tempted To sin.


968 posted on 01/13/2012 4:10:19 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette
Paul was speaking about to US, about US and about putting on the incorruptibility of Christ, who KNEW NO SIN.

Jesus became sin for us...Jesus had a body that aged...A body that died...Jesus had a body just like we have...A body that dies and rots and turns to wormfood...

969 posted on 01/13/2012 4:10:41 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Jvette

But that is not what I asked.


970 posted on 01/13/2012 4:11:19 PM PST by bonfire
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To: metmom

You’re right. I in no way meant that salvation depends on certain Marian dogmas. Nor do I believe that today’s Catholics believe that except for a few pre-Vatican II holdouts (Mel Gibson comes to mind). Hope you took no offense at my postings - none was meant.


971 posted on 01/13/2012 4:12:01 PM PST by phil413
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To: CynicalBear

***Because he was being hard headed?***

That response was thoroughly stupid the first few times it was given, but now it only convinces me of the absolute, almost pathological need of protestants to refrain from answering it honestly.

***The church is built of Gentiles.***

Are you saying there were no Jews in the Church? Ever?

That would be a complete surprise to all of the Apostles and disciples who were Jewish.


972 posted on 01/13/2012 4:14:11 PM PST by Jvette
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To: lastchance
>>I don’t destroy art. Sorry just won’t do it.<<

Watch as God destroys the “art” in Egypt. Ever wonder what the “art” looked like that God destroyed in other pagan societies and that Israel set up?

973 posted on 01/13/2012 4:17:21 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: stfassisi
Everything is one NOW with God who is outside of time. The Incarnation,Moses crossing the red sea, the crucifixion,our deaths etc.. is all one eternal never ending event with God-nothing ever starts and ends being outside of time.

And let me guess...You don't have any scripture to back that up, either...

But hey, I'd like to cross the Red Sea tomorrow with Moses...You guys got a Church where that is happening??? And I've got a few questions for Ezekiel...Where's he currently preaching???

974 posted on 01/13/2012 4:21:57 PM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool

John 10;18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Death had no hold over Jesus. He chose it freely, laying down His life for sinners.

John 15;13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus became sin, meaning that He had no sin in Him, He took it on, on the cross so that we can have eternal life.
He was not subject to it, in any way.


975 posted on 01/13/2012 4:22:27 PM PST by Jvette
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To: stfassisi; Jvette; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Everything is one NOW with God who is outside of time. The Incarnation,Moses crossing the red sea, the crucifixion,our deaths etc.. is all one eternal never ending event with God-nothing ever starts and ends being outside of time.

This is why the Sacrifice is never ending.

I rest my case, jvette.

The whole problem is that Christ died IN time, within the bounds of time, not in the eternity that exists outside of time.

If He died in eternity, then the sacrifice could be considered ongoing, ever present.

Scripture states that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL.

The effects of the sacrifice are eternal, the sacrifice itself is NEVER referred to in Scripture as anything but in the past tense after it happened.

Not only that, but if indeed the sacrifice were ongoing, then it would be more than possible for all the sins I have yet to commit to be forgiven before I commit them, the concept of which gives Catholics the heebie-jeebies.

976 posted on 01/13/2012 4:22:27 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: bonfire

I would LOVE to see a site that spells which verses they must submit

I have given you that which is non negotiable.

My apologies for thinking the verses which support those doctrines are familiar to you. I could post them if you like.


977 posted on 01/13/2012 4:25:30 PM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear; D-fendr

It’s an interesting reply. Jerusalem is your mother. I don’t recall any Church named Jerusalem. Where on the Internet may I read about your Church?

I’m a Roman Catholic. It is possible to trace the History of the Catholic Church. It is possible to visit a local Roman Catholic Church. Where may I visit your Church that claims Jerusalem as Mother?

The Title the Holy Mother Church is given to the Roman Catholic Church because of the attributes of a mother. Today there are about 1.2 BILLION people that have been baptized into the Catholic Church still living around the world. Please don’t keep your CHURCH a SECRET! Where is it located? Where can I read about it? How many people are in it?

My Bible refers to that passage of Galatians as an allegory of comparing Hagar the slave woman & Sarah to demonstrate freedom in Christianity. The Apostle Paul is considered one of the founding Apostles of the Roman Catholic Church. Please let me know about this Church that calls Jerusalem its Mother.


978 posted on 01/13/2012 4:38:36 PM PST by gghd
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To: Jvette

Impossible to carry on a conversation on this because you lack the understanding of the basics.

The incorruption Paul discussed was a non-biological body, suitable for a non-material relm. The universe will be gone. there will be no oxygen to support biological life, in fact there will be no atoms of any kind; it will be the relm of God.


979 posted on 01/13/2012 4:38:55 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: metmom
>> IIRC someone posted some dictum by the Catholic church that certain doctrines about Mary are required to be believed or the person was *anathema*, IOW, they were required to be believed for salvation.<<

For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God Who has lavished His special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honour of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority, We pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

Hence, if anyone, which God forbid, should dare wilfully to deny or call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith...It is forbidden to any man to change this, Our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul (Munificentissimus Deus, Selected Documenst of Pope Pius XII (Washington: National Catholic Welfare Conference), 38, 40, 44-45, 47).

980 posted on 01/13/2012 4:39:28 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

LOL That probably sent shudders of horror through all Catholics who read it.


981 posted on 01/13/2012 4:41:01 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: editor-surveyor

“Be it unto me according to thy word” sounds an awful lot like an assent to me. Do you propose that God would have become Incarnate of Mary anyway had she objected to the Annunciation, rather than meekly assenting?


982 posted on 01/13/2012 4:45:43 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: caww; verga; thesaleboat; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; StrongandPround; lilyramone; ...

Asked: Are you claiming that Catholic’s worship idols?

caww wrote:

Of course they do and obvious to any other than catholics. Nothings changed since they first brought idolatry into the church...they just added more along the way...

...colored it in with flavorful language and then taught the people that a duck isn’t a duck....

if one prays to an idol,.. bows to an idol,.. marches in parades with idols,... throws flowers before idols,.... kisses idols,... lights candles for idols,... builds shrines to celebrate idols... statues of idols,.....but it’s not idolatry or worship...R-i-g-h-t-ooooo...Got it.


983 posted on 01/13/2012 4:46:33 PM PST by narses
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To: metmom

Rest your case?

You haven’t even made it.

***The whole problem is that Christ died IN time, within the bounds of time, not in the eternity that exists outside of time.***

Why is that a problem? God chose Incarnation which came in His time, not the Jews time and not ours. The fullness of time, as determined by God, not man. It is not as if there was a clock similar to the debt clock keeping track of time for God so that He knew when to come as the Son of God and Son of Man.

The problem, as I see it, is in trying to confine God by our time. Peter advised against this and explained that we do not know time in the way that God does.

Time here is not the question. The question is whether the sacrifice which frees men from sin is eternal or finite. The body of Jesus was finite, only because He chose for it to be the means of our salvation and lay it down.

But all who lived before, and all who lived then and all who live or lived after are saved by the same sacrifice.

Because you have focused on the action of the sacrifice and not the Person who is the sacrifice, it is easy to see where the misunderstanding has come.

***Not only that, but if indeed the sacrifice were ongoing, then it would be more than possible for all the sins I have yet to commit to be forgiven before I commit them, the concept of which gives Catholics the heebie-jeebies.***

Another misunderstanding of Catholics in regards to future sins. Of course, all sins one commits are forgiven, when they are repented. Unless and until one commits sin, there is nothing to repent and nothing to forgive.

This is not the same as saying that there is no need for repentance once one has accepted Jesus as Savior. Repentance is an ongoing thing.

In a sense, the forgiveness is there, it is the repentance though that manifests it.


984 posted on 01/13/2012 4:47:32 PM PST by Jvette
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To: stonehouse01

Oh, Arianism is very much alive. I’ve not noticed it on this thread, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses are definitely Arians.


985 posted on 01/13/2012 4:49:11 PM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Jvette
>> Are you saying there were no Jews in the Church? Ever?<<

The church age is not the “times of the Jews”.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

986 posted on 01/13/2012 4:51:10 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom

Well that is the official teaching on how to read the Bible.

Another example is that Catholics are perfectly free to believe in a literal 6 day creation. They are free to believe in evolution provided they don’t think it was the result of random natural selection in which God has no sovereignty. So we can put with limits our own interpretation of Genesis 1. We also must believe that Adam & Eve were real persons and from them we inherited sin.


987 posted on 01/13/2012 4:57:50 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: bonfire

You must not be familiar with Catholic teaching on reading of Scripture. Shall I provide some sources?


988 posted on 01/13/2012 5:00:01 PM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: phil413

No, I don’t offend easily.

And if I did get offended, that would just give me another opportunity to practice forgiveness.


989 posted on 01/13/2012 5:00:44 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: editor-surveyor

i can’t find any posts personally attacking you, can you tell us what you are referring to?


990 posted on 01/13/2012 5:02:10 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: editor-surveyor

Impossible to carry on a conversation on this because the protestants insist on changing the argument, redefining words and then moving the goalposts.

***The incorruption Paul discussed was a non-biological body, suitable for a non-material relm(sic).***

Really? So, in Acts, when the Apostles and others watched Jesus ascend, bodily mind you, was that in fact an incorruptible body or merely Jesus’ spirit? Did Jesus just explode once He reached orbit? Really, what happened to the body, which the Apostles touched and which ate food? Or was it not a REAL body?

Does the body which was Jesus and which was raised no longer exist? And if not, what happened to it and where is it now? And, please include Scripture to support your answer.

****The universe will be gone. there will be no oxygen to support biological life, in fact there will be no atoms of any kind; it will be the relm of God.***

Really? Scripture, please.


991 posted on 01/13/2012 5:02:24 PM PST by Jvette
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To: gghd
>>Where may I visit your Church that claims Jerusalem as Mother?<<

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Agar represents those that are under bondage like Catholics are. Jerusalem is the mother of all the free Christians in Christ.

Now maybe you could show the passage from scripture that shows that the church is the mother of us all.

992 posted on 01/13/2012 5:03:41 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: gghd; CynicalBear
It’s an interesting reply. Jerusalem is your mother. I don’t recall any Church named Jerusalem. Where on the Internet may I read about your Church?

Ummmm, CB posted the Scripture that states that. If you have issues with it, you need to take it up with the author, the Holy Spirit.

993 posted on 01/13/2012 5:04:15 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear

Deflect, deflect and then deflect some more.

Were there or were there not Jews in the Church?

You said the Church was built by the Gentiles, hence my question.

Try to focus and answer that question.

Oh, and nice dodge once again regarding the question as to why Jesus, God, THE ROCK, chose for Simon a name which means rock.


994 posted on 01/13/2012 5:09:49 PM PST by Jvette
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To: caww; narses
Are you claiming that Catholic’s worship idols?

Of course they do and obvious to any other than catholics.

Odd. It wasn't obvious to my current pastor (who spent 25 years as a Baptist minister, most of it in the armed forces and much of that in Germany). It is not obvious to the Anglicans who are fleeing from the obvious outcome of English Protestantism to Catholic Christianity.

The only ones it is 'obvious' to is those who reject the fundamental basis of being creatures (and therefore worshiping outside the self - to God) and who wholeheartedly embrace the worship of the self - the idol in the mirror. I find these folks to be invariably a book whose title (I am a Christian) directly opposes the content of that book.

When the Lord of All Judges you (no man gets a pass from Judgement no matter how he may stamp his little feet or pretend that that awful thing will happen to me), do you think that He will bend to your will and any self declaration of salvation or non Judgement?

Or as St. Paul says in Hebrews 27: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment.

Or John observed in Revelation 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.

St. Luke wrote (painted) the first icon of Our Lady. If you do not accept his icon, why would you accept his Gospel and Acts? Why would you accept St. Paul (who Luke accompanied on many journeys) and any of his works on that basis?

995 posted on 01/13/2012 5:11:46 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: caww; narses
Are you claiming that Catholic’s worship idols?

Of course they do and obvious to any other than catholics.

Odd. It wasn't obvious to my current pastor (who spent 25 years as a Baptist minister, most of it in the armed forces and much of that in Germany). It is not obvious to the Anglicans who are fleeing from the obvious outcome of English Protestantism to Catholic Christianity.

The only ones it is 'obvious' to is those who reject the fundamental basis of being creatures (and therefore worshiping outside the self - to God) and who wholeheartedly embrace the worship of the self - the idol in the mirror. I find these folks to be invariably a book whose title (I am a Christian) directly opposes the content of that book.

When the Lord of All Judges you (no man gets a pass from Judgement no matter how he may stamp his little feet or pretend that that awful thing will happen to me), do you think that He will bend to your will and any self declaration of salvation or non Judgement?

Or as St. Paul says in Hebrews 27: 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment.

Or John observed in Revelation 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.

St. Luke wrote (painted) the first icon of Our Lady. If you do not accept his icon, why would you accept his Gospel and Acts? Why would you accept St. Paul (who Luke accompanied on many journeys) and any of his works on that basis?

996 posted on 01/13/2012 5:12:10 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Jvette

Yes, but how are we to believe what’s non negotiable and what’s not?

We have catholics that SWEAR they don’t pray to Mary, yet they do. (you not being one of them) How does a catholic sit back and let something as simple as “praying TO” be an issue when it’s set in stone? For me, it suggests that many don’t know/understand their doctrine.

I’m just trying to nail down what is truly catholic doctrine and what is not. Now that YOPIOS has entered the conversation, I’m simply curious.


997 posted on 01/13/2012 5:13:59 PM PST by bonfire
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To: CynicalBear; D-fendr

In all kindness, you didn’t name a Church. All you did was quote a passage from the Bible.

Seriously, are you the only person in your church?

The Bible you quoted came out of the Catholic Church. Jesus didn’t walk the Holy Lands handing out Bibles. & Nor did God, the Father, reach down from Heaven and hand out Bibles all over the world.

I quoted how I believe the title ‘Holy Mother Church’ came to be in comment #618. The Title indicates a characteristic of the Catholic Church. The Title is used in Catholic documents such as the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. I recommended that you contact a priest.

Please let us know! Are you the only person in your church? Christianity is about what you >Love & not what you hate. We are all commanded to ‘Love one another like Christ loved us.’ If you don’t belong to a church, I recommend you visit one this Sunday.


998 posted on 01/13/2012 5:16:15 PM PST by gghd
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To: Jvette
The Mass does not continue the Sacrifice on the Cross. Rather it makes that Perfect Sacrifice present to those who have lived after the once for all Sacrifice of the Cross. That is why it is called the unbloody sacrifice.

Also, that Sacrifice covers all of Time. God exists out of Time and is eternal. We are not and we are subject to the laws of the created universe, being creatures of Him. That Sacrifice is as good for us now as it was for the folks at the beginning of Creation and all through Time to the end of All.

They do not understand the very issue of Time versus Eternity any more than they understand that Scripture was not written by King James in 1611 and emailed to Jesus and the Apostles for them to teach from. Apparently the Catholic Church ruthlessly ruled the Interwebs, confiscating all sites and email traces which contained the AV1611 except those carried on flash drives and disseminated person to person.

999 posted on 01/13/2012 5:18:26 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: metmom
I don't understand this "outside of time" argument.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou AT THIS TIME restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them. It is not for you to know THE TIMES or THE SEASONS, which the Father has PUT IN HIS OWN POWER." Acts 1:6,7.

It sounds like some philosophical mumbo jumbo intended to change the plain meaning of God's Word into something it simply does NOT say. Once again...

1,000 posted on 01/13/2012 5:20:46 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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