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Mary: Mother of God?
What Does the Bible say? ^ | 01/11/2012 | Bro. Lev Humphries,

Posted on 01/11/2012 7:34:56 PM PST by RnMomof7

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To: boatbums

I totally agree with your assessment. The number of people reached by these threads cannot be known but we can be assured that there are those who read and learn. God reaches those He will through many ways. I trust God to use me wherever He places me at different stages in my life and know that He will use my circumstances to His glory. Satan will send those who would try to discourage us but my God reigns.


1,201 posted on 01/14/2012 6:33:07 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Al Hitan
>> You didn't answer. Was Peter named Rock by Jesus?<<

My dad’s name was Peter and he wasn’t the Pope either. Jesus giving Simon the name Peter didn’t make him the Pope and didn’t change who the church was built on.

Christ is head of the church as a husband is head of the wife. Would you put a “alter husband” between a wife and her husband? Neither did Christ put a “alter Christus” between Him and the church.

1,202 posted on 01/14/2012 6:43:24 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: verga
>>Think about it, and rember it was the Catholic Church that gave you the New Testament.<<

With that logic you should convert to Judaism.

1,203 posted on 01/14/2012 6:51:56 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
My dad’s name was Peter and he wasn’t the Pope either.

That's fine. Was Peter named Rock by Jesus?

Would you put a “alter husband” between a wife and her husband? Neither did Christ put a “alter Christus” between Him and the church.

Whether or not you understand how the Church uses the term "alter Christus" has nothing to do with what I asked. Please try to focus.

1,204 posted on 01/14/2012 7:03:34 AM PST by Al Hitan (Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)
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To: MarkBsnr
>>You are going to compare yourself with Noah and Lot?<<

Nope, just pointing out that the majority and long history argument that Catholics love to use falls flat. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ. The majority of the Israelites worshiped the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain. The Jewish history is older than Catholic history. The mantra of “we have a history of 2000 years” rings hollow.

1,205 posted on 01/14/2012 7:04:34 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


1,206 posted on 01/14/2012 7:05:08 AM PST by narses
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To: CynicalBear; MarkBsnr

“The mantra of “we have a history of 2000 years” rings hollow.”

Really? The Apostolic Church traces it’s lineage from the first Apostles until now and that “rings hollow”? How odd.

But then again you think that Christmas and Easter are pagan and that going to Church on Sunday is a made up tradition.


1,207 posted on 01/14/2012 7:08:32 AM PST by narses
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To: Al Hitan; CynicalBear

“Please try to focus.”

You are asking someone who believes that Christmas and Easter are pagan, that art work is idolatry and that Church on Sunday is a man made tradition to “focus”? How, when the lens is covered in falsehoods, how can it focus?


1,208 posted on 01/14/2012 7:11:06 AM PST by narses
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Would you please post the link as what is posted is unreadable. And I really would like to read it.


1,209 posted on 01/14/2012 7:31:03 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: caww

Cherry picking scripture and ignoring so much other scripture to promote error is disingenuous and, by default, further error.


1,210 posted on 01/14/2012 7:32:53 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: Al Hitan
>>Was Peter named Rock by Jesus?<<

God called several people by different names. One thing we can be assured of is that He did not call Simon Peter to change who the church would be built on.

1 Cor. 3:11, "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,"

Jesus also called Peter Satan in that same conversation.

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Should we then understand that since Jesus called Simon Satan that the Catholic Church is build on Satan? After all, Jesus called him both names in the same conversation and He called him Satan after He called him Peter.

1,211 posted on 01/14/2012 7:54:52 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Salvation

Jesus also called him Satan in that same conversation.


1,212 posted on 01/14/2012 7:57:42 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

That was a pathetic attempt at cut and paste.


1,213 posted on 01/14/2012 7:58:49 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

Oh, I see. You’re now attempting to BLIND us into submission...


1,214 posted on 01/14/2012 8:09:13 AM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: jacknhoo; caww
>> Wouldn’t that be a sad day?<

A sad day to say that life came though Christ? Are you kidding? Surely you can’t be serous.

1,215 posted on 01/14/2012 8:13:01 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

1,216 posted on 01/14/2012 8:15:32 AM PST by narses
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To: Iscool
>>And now you invite us to a Catholic Caucus thread???<<

Do the think we actually read them if we haven’t been told to stay out? LOL

1,217 posted on 01/14/2012 8:19:33 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses
You are asking someone who believes that Christmas and Easter are pagan, that art work is idolatry and that Church on Sunday is a man made tradition to “focus”? How, when the lens is covered in falsehoods, how can it focus?

That explains a lot, including why they do everything they can to avoid answering the simplest of questions. Your point is well taken. Why bother?

1,218 posted on 01/14/2012 8:34:04 AM PST by Al Hitan (Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)
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To: Iscool
Actually, it has worked out real well for me...

And when Jesus seats you in the smoking sedction don't be surprised. Listen unless you can back up your thoughts about the Catholic Church with Primary sources don't bother commenting. and I mean real legitimate sources.

1,219 posted on 01/14/2012 9:12:45 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: Iscool; verga; smvoice; caww; presently no screen name; RnMomof7
Hos 13:2 And now they sin more and more, and have made them molten images of their silver, and idols according to their own understanding, all of it the work of the craftsmen: they say of them, Let the men that sacrifice kiss the calves.

How man times have we seen Catholics kiss the statues? Hmmmm.

1,220 posted on 01/14/2012 9:19:46 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
>> You didn't answer. Was Peter named Rock by Jesus?<<

Can you ever answer a simple yes or no question with out going off on one of your tangents? Whe one of my students pulls this garbage you just know that he / she has painted themselves into a corner, so try it again.....

Was Peter named Rock by Jesus? This requires only a yes of no answer.

1,221 posted on 01/14/2012 9:21:43 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: caww

What I posted is what ALL Christians believe.

You find the word must as cold and heartless, but it quite simply confirms what makes one a believer in the True Jesus Christ.

We see today many heretical beliefs about Jesus, many “faiths” that do not proclaim the True Jesus.

That is why there are “must believe” doctrines that, again, ALL Christians believe.

Otherwise, Jesus is not unchanging and eternal God, He becomes whatever the believer wishes Him to be.

These “must believe” statements are not demands, they are doctrines.


1,222 posted on 01/14/2012 9:23:20 AM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear
With that logic you should convert to Judaism.

WOW what a complete non-sequitor, and sit in the thinky chair in the corner and see if you can come up with an even more irrelevant comment.

1,223 posted on 01/14/2012 9:24:05 AM PST by verga (We get what we tolerate and increase that which we reward)
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To: CynicalBear

Ah, a dubious response...go figure.


1,224 posted on 01/14/2012 9:24:14 AM PST by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
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To: verga; caww
>> and I mean real legitimate sources.<<

Well now, posting passages from scripture s no longer a “legitimate” source? How telling.

1,225 posted on 01/14/2012 9:27:14 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear
>>You are going to compare yourself with Noah and Lot?<<

Nope, just pointing out that the majority and long history argument that Catholics love to use falls flat. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ. The majority of the Israelites worshiped the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain. The Jewish history is older than Catholic history. The mantra of “we have a history of 2000 years” rings hollow.

It is 2000 years of unbroken Christianity that Jesus taught to the Apostles and they and their successors have handed down to us.

We received Christianity from Jesus the Christ, Lord and Creator of All. He is the Creator of the Church.

I think that the corrupter of desire created the Reformation.

1,226 posted on 01/14/2012 9:31:32 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Al Hitan
May I ask what the significance of that use of petra is?
1,227 posted on 01/14/2012 9:34:29 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: verga

If a teacher is so poor at reading comprehension it may be time to reconsider the line of work. We all can see and understand that indeed Jesus did call him Peter. He also called him Satan. What’s your point?


1,228 posted on 01/14/2012 9:35:02 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom; Al Hitan; CynicalBear

***If God is the rock and He says there is no other, then what comes after must be interpreted in that light. If there’s a conflict than the interpretation which disagrees with it has to go.***

That is all well and good, and I do understand the conflict protestants feel exists here.

But, there is still the fact that Jesus, God, who said that He is the only rock, gave to Peter the name rock.

When He first met him, Jesus knew Simon and knew His plan for him.

John 1:40 aOne of the two who heard John speak and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.

41 He * found first his own brother Simon and * said to him, “We have found the aMessiah” (which translated means 1Christ).

42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of 1aJohn; you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated 2cPeter).

Note that Jesus says you “shall be called Cephas”. Jesus has not yet revealed why Simon will be called this. That revelation comes later, when Jesus reiterates the name “Cephas” by saying, “You ARE rock” and then follows that with the reason why Simon has been given the name by God.

God gave Simon the name.

The only “conflict” about it is because Protestants must reject Peter in the role Jesus gave him, or they must reject their Protestantism.


1,229 posted on 01/14/2012 9:37:50 AM PST by Jvette
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To: word_warrior_bob

lol, nice chuckle first thing in the morning:)


1,230 posted on 01/14/2012 9:40:07 AM PST by Jvette
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To: MarkBsnr
>> I think that the corrupter of desire created the Reformation.<<

Well there certainly was some corruption that lingered. The were after all bought up on the Catholic faith.

1,231 posted on 01/14/2012 9:44:10 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Iscool; CynicalBear

I will not chase you down the rabbit hole as it is a diversion, a deflection, a dodge meant to veer the conversation off into a completely different tangent.

It happens often, especially when one is unable to successfully debate the subject at hand.


1,232 posted on 01/14/2012 9:48:17 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Iscool

Not accurate?

Whatever, Jesus had His mission, which He fulfilled.

He then sent out those He prepared to further spread the Good News.

That is what they did, and what the Church still does.

There will be those who hear it and believe.

There will be those who hear and don’t believe.

If that is inaccurate to you, then so be it.

It is the Truth, whether one recognizes it or not.


1,233 posted on 01/14/2012 9:53:55 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Iscool

Yes, the woman is Mary, and also the Church.

I understand the need to reject it as true.

****And you teach this to other lesser biblically educated Catholics???****

Yes, just as I learned it from great theologians and Biblical scholars from the first generations of Christians.


1,234 posted on 01/14/2012 10:17:42 AM PST by Jvette
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To: CynicalBear; MarkBsnr

***Nope, just pointing out that the majority and long history argument that Catholics love to use falls flat.***

More complete misunderstanding of Catholicism and the Church.

It is not the “majority” that shows the Church has done as Jesus commanded. It is that the Church is present throughout the whole world, “all the nations”. That people respond to the truth they hear from the Church is an action of the Holy Spirit.

It also is not so much that the Church has been here for 2,000 years, it is that the Church has prevailed, as Jesus promised it would. That it has been 2,000 years is only because, gee, it’s been 2,000 years since Christ lived and died and rose again.

Neither of these things would be or could be true, if the Holy Spirit does not guide and protect the Church, just as Jesus promised.

Acts 5:39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God.”

40They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them. 41So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name. 42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.


1,235 posted on 01/14/2012 10:35:07 AM PST by Jvette
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To: metmom

“God called her to carry the Messiah”

God calls all believers to carry the Messiah for a longer term than 9 months:

(Col. 1:27), “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory”


1,236 posted on 01/14/2012 10:44:53 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: Jvette; Iscool
>>Yes, the woman is Mary, and also the Church.<<

So you think the RCC has taken the place of Israel?

1,237 posted on 01/14/2012 10:52:57 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: gghd
It also has requirements about what is considered a Church as a Church is more than a building.

Jesus is coming back for His church - ya think He's coming back for buildings?

Bless people for Honoring God in their own way If it leads to Heaven. God decides who gets into Heaven.

"IF" - there are no if's and there is only ONE way. What kind of God do you serve that you don't know now? His children KNOW HIM and He KNOWS them. And the HOLY SPIRIT bears witness to His children that they KNOW HIM. "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children." Romans 8:16

I’m curious do you attend any Church? & if so, how big is it? What is the name of your Church?

Stay curious, newbie. "We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies." 2 Thess 3:11
1,238 posted on 01/14/2012 10:55:13 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Jvette
>>Neither of these things would be or could be true, if the Holy Spirit does not guide and protect the Church, just as Jesus promised.<<

Islam was started in 622. Does the length of time they have been in existence indicate they also are “protecting” them?

1,239 posted on 01/14/2012 11:05:29 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: metmom
It’s not WHAT we’re called to do but our obedience to do that counts.

AMEN!

Matthew 12:48 He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

Matthew 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers."

Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the WILL of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

Mark 3:35 "Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Luke 8:21 Jesus replied, "My mother and my brothers are all those who HEAR God's Word and OBEY it."
1,240 posted on 01/14/2012 11:13:53 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

My Church> The Roman Catholic Church teaches> Matthew 7: 15> ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.’ + 1Peter 2:1> ‘Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, insincerity, envy, and all slander.’

What church do you attend? How many are people are in your church? Why is there such darkness? We are all obligated to shine the light of Truth on everything.


1,241 posted on 01/14/2012 11:36:17 AM PST by gghd
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To: Jvette
Yes, the woman is Mary, and also the Church.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Well if you say so...Guess that's how we know Mary had more children...But you don't believe that either, do you???

But I'd be interested to know just what in that verse you can equate to Mary...

1,242 posted on 01/14/2012 11:40:44 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: gghd; presently no screen name
What church do you attend? How many are people are in your church? Why is there such darkness? We are all obligated to shine the light of Truth on everything.

A few hundred million...Matter of fact, there are more of us in the U.S. than there are of you...

The largest Christian Nation on Earth which is one of the few that has freedom of religion is loaded with Protestants...Kinda looks like ours is the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against...

1,243 posted on 01/14/2012 11:48:13 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: CynicalBear

****So you would say just the human body died? Thus there was a separation of some sort?****

As Jesus was both God and man, when He died, God did indeed suffer or taste death, but did not cease to exist.

Just as when we die, we do not cease to exist, our souls are still alive.

But, God was united to the humanity of Jesus forever at the moment of His conception. That is why when Jesus was resurrected, it was the same body in which He was Incarnated.


1,244 posted on 01/14/2012 11:49:49 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Iscool

What is the name of your church? Is it listed on Wikipedia? Does it have an Internet website? There are listing of Church sizes on the Internet. What I have found:> the Roman Catholic Church is the largest Church in the USA.

Please, Please, Please = (Anybody ever listen to old James Brown records?) What is the name of your church?

My Church teaches: Matthew 7: 15> ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.’ What is the name of your church. Why is there so much darkness. We should all want to shine the light of Truth on everything.


1,245 posted on 01/14/2012 11:59:00 AM PST by gghd
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To: gghd
The Roman Catholic Church teaches> Matthew 7: 15> ‘Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.’ + 1Peter 2:1> ‘Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, insincerity, envy, and all slander.’

That's a case where the pot is calling the kettle black. RUN FROM IT!
1,246 posted on 01/14/2012 11:59:40 AM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom
Thanks for the ping. Here are some of my thoughts:

While I think that in order to be chosen by God Mary would have been a woman of real holiness and sincerity, yet this does not necessarily make her more holy than many other woman.

Mary was indeed blessed above all woman, that being due to whom she was to bring forth. Yet just as God brought forth his pure written word through holy but not sinless men, so it is not necessary that the vessel that brought forth Christ must be sinless either. Using that rationale it could be reasoned that the vessel that brought forth Mary herself must be sinless. And yet Christ's lineage includes manifest sinners, as was the "fathers of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:5)

Mary was also "highly favored," which Rome chose to translate as "full of grace" (DRB), but which is the same word (charitoo&#772;) used to describe believers in Ephesians 1:6.

Greater aspects of Mary's exaltation are that as Christ was sinless, so is Mary said to be; Christ bodily rose from the dead, and so it is said of Mary; Christ ever lives to make intercession for the saints, (Heb. 7:25), and is able to hear an an infinite multitude of supplicants at any given time, and so this is attribute it to Mary.

In defense of this Catholics will argue from silence, that Scripture does not disallow such being attributed to a believer, and that Scripture records some being bodily assumed. However, Scripture also manifests that exceptions among notable people are made evident, from the number of fingers a man has to being sinless. Thus Christ's is said to be sinless at least three times.

Scripture warns against thinking "of men above that which is written" (1Corinthians 4:6), and all in all the preoccupation with exalting Mary in Catholicism has turned a simple, humble, God-fearing holy and honorable woman into a demigodess, with Divine powers and almost unlimited power whose requests for as commands to God, which in type is more pagan than scriptural.

While not all of the supererogation involved in attributions to Mary is official doctrine, it has its implicit assent seem in the lack of censure to even its most extreme expressions, and extreme exaltation even by popes, who themselves can be seen to think of themselves above that which is written.

1,247 posted on 01/14/2012 12:03:12 PM PST by daniel1212 (Our sinful deeds condemn us, but Christ's death and resurrection gains salvation. Repent +Believe)
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To: presently no screen name

What is the name of your church? How many people are in your church? Why is there so much darkness? We are all told to shine the light of Truth on the darkness in this world.

My Church, The Catholic Church, warns us about wolves in sheep’s clothing as it is from the Bible.

What is the name of your church? Please tell us!


1,248 posted on 01/14/2012 12:08:03 PM PST by gghd
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To: CynicalBear

***Jesus also called him Satan in that same conversation.***

Yes, Jesus did say to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan”.

Peter, not wanting Jesus to die, tries to deny what must happen. Just as Satan would like us all to do, deny Jesus, deny the Incarnation and deny our redemption from the cross.

It actually is a very telling incident.

We enter the gates of heaven through the Truth of Jesus.

Conversely, we enter the gate of hell through the lies of Satan.

What does Jesus say? “I will give you the keys of the kingdom and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.”

And what happens next? Peter is immediately attacked by Satan and Jesus just as immediately steps in with the truth and further teachings about giving up one’s life for the truth.

Peter was indeed human, with a fully human nature that could fail, but the human Peter, united with the Holy Spirit was a totally different creature.

Just as we see in Jesus the union of the human with the divine, we see this union in Scriptures, written by humans under the inspiration and guidance of God, and the Church, led by humans under the inspiration and guidance of God.


1,249 posted on 01/14/2012 12:10:11 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Iscool
A few hundred million...ours is the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against...

That's it! All my brothers and sisters go there. We are all getting together soon to attend a wedding. The invitation has been sent but the date is not known yet but just be ready. I'll see you then, nonetheless, and we are told to come as we are.
1,250 posted on 01/14/2012 12:12:15 PM PST by presently no screen name
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