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When Did Christians First Call Themselves “Catholic”?
hope it is ^ | September 8, 2008 | | Bob Lozano

Posted on 01/15/2012 2:36:04 PM PST by narses

Ignatius.jpgOne of the real joys of spending time reading and studying the writings of the earliest Christians (aka the Early Church Fathers) is gaining a bit of insight into what life was like those who professed to be Christian.

One of the real surprises (at least to me) was how early the term “Catholic” came to be used to refer to all Christians.

How early? How about the year 107 … maybe even earlier!

From the Letter to the Smyrnaeans by St. Ignatius of Antioch:

Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.

Note that St. Ignatius is a real hero of the early Church – both a bishop and a martyr at the hands of the Romans, he left an awesome written legacy of letters to local churches … primarily encouragement as he marched to his martyrdom.

The current wiki article presents a good overview of the life of St. Ignatius of Antioch. From that article comes this paragraph:

It is from the word katholikos that the word “catholic” comes. When Ignatius wrote the Letter to the Smyrnaeans in about the year 107 and used the word “catholic”, he used it as if it were a word already in use to describe the Church. This has led many scholars to conclude that the appellation “Catholic Church” with its ecclesial connotation may have been in use as early as the last quarter of the first century.

While this may seem like a small point, I think it’s rather significant – the sense of universality, of all Christians belonging to the church that they themselves called katholikos … this gives us some real insight into what Christians thought important.

An Opposing View
Notice it is in direct contrast to the probably well-intentioned, but definitely historically inaccurate perspective of those who oppose the reality of the one Church founded by Jesus Christ. Typical of this perspective is a recent post by Thomas H., who writes from a Baptist perspective:

The application of the word “catholic” was not used in reference to all supposed Christians until the Council of Trent. This word was used by catholics to beat over the heads of non catholics in the sence of saying you do not belong to the true church. This resulted in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Christians who were not Roman Catholics by the emissaries of Rome.

I think you get the idea … the only real problem with all that is it doesn’t square with the historical record on any level, starting with the word catholic.

The Historical Reality
I can empathize with folks like Thomas – when you have spent your whole life being told bits and pieces of what happened, along with stuff that’s simply not true by folks who spent their lives in the same circumstances, it must be hard to be open to the reality that contradicts what you believe.

Yet, the historical record is clear, and provides an eloquent testimony to the truth … from its earliest days the Church understood that unity and universality were basic marks of the Church founded by Jesus Christ.

It began calling itself katholikos around the end of the first century, at most a few years after the death of the last apostle (John). It did not begin with the Council of Trent (late 16th century – nearly 1500 years later) or any other time. In fact, by the time the canon of Scripture – what we call the Bible – was settled Christians had been calling themselves Catholics for almost 300 years … longer than the United States has even been a country!

That Church remains Catholic to this day, and will remain so until the end of time (Matthew 16:18+).

An Invitation
If this does not seem right to you, please investigate on your own. Look into the historical record – pagan, Jewish, or Christian – and see what evidence supports each side. What you’ll find is exactly what the Church has always understood … it is katholikos, and has been so from the beginning.

The writings of the Early Church Fathers are widely available, with treatments ranging from the easily-accessible to the more in-depth, scholarly works. A good place to start for most folks is Four Witnesses by Rod Bennett – a very readable account, well-grounded in current scholarship,


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS:
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1 posted on 01/15/2012 2:36:06 PM PST by narses
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To: narses; Bill W was a conservative; verga; thesaleboat; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; ...
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2 posted on 01/15/2012 2:37:04 PM PST by narses
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To: narses
Catholic
3 posted on 01/15/2012 2:43:40 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: narses

People need to quit confusing “Catholic”, which means universal, with “Roman Catholic”. In the early Christian Church, everybody was considered “Catholic”. Some useful sources include www.goarch.org, www.oca.org and www.antiochian.org.


4 posted on 01/15/2012 2:44:02 PM PST by toothfairy86
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To: narses
That Church remains Catholic to this day, and will remain so until the end of time (Matthew 16:18+).

My Bible doesn't have that word Catholic in it anywhere. Are you sure you're not playing loosy goosy with a private interpretation?

5 posted on 01/15/2012 2:44:19 PM PST by BipolarBob (I don't mind you shooting at me, Frank, but take it easy on the Bacardi!)
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To: narses

very well said. After nearly 50 years on my journey - I have found that what Jesus founded was one universal cathoic church - The Catholic Church. Everything else Christian is the broken church of believers - it is broken because of the sin of man from both within and outside the one Church Jesus Christ founded.


6 posted on 01/15/2012 2:47:37 PM PST by bagadonutz
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To: narses

Even in the early days, as we find in the Book of Acts, there were splinter churches and dissenters. One of the marks of the true Church was that it was universal, not a dissident local church.

So when it came to defining the Church at the Council of Nicea, it was said to be One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

There is only one true Church. So it says in the Bible. That one true Church is also seen to be Apostolic, headed by the bishops who descend from the original Apostles in unbroken succession. Catholic Church simply means Universal Church.

That was one reason why I left the Anglican Church, because like Newman I concluded that there was no way that it could be the universal Church, throughout the world and through all time since its founding by Christ. I received great good from growing up in the Anglican Church. I have read and considered its own claims to be universal and apostolic, and I found that I simply could not justify those claims.

The Council of Nicea put the word Catholic into the creed, but of course, as this article suggests, the word can be found much earlier, as a response to splinter groups that go back to the earliest days when the original apostles were still active.


7 posted on 01/15/2012 2:49:37 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: BipolarBob; narses

My Bible doesn’t have the word[s] “Bible in it either”, Nor Holy Trinity, Incarnation, Original Sin, Two Natures of Christ yet One Divine Person. I also don’t find the word “abortion in it either” for example.

I could go on an on. Mt 16: 18 is more about Petrine Ministry. Mt 28 and the great Commission point to the Catholicity of the Church. Together, Catholicity and Unity, both Mark of the Church expressed in the Nicene-Constantinopilian Creed are strengthed by the Petrine Ministry which thru which Full Catholicity is maintained.


8 posted on 01/15/2012 2:49:52 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: narses
But It's not in the Bible.Photobucket

Jesus never Declared he had a Mother either! but He was a Baby.

Also they did not go to the bathroom either because it is not in the New Testament Bible.

9 posted on 01/15/2012 2:50:37 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: narses
But It's not in the Bible.Photobucket

Jesus never Declared he had a Mother either! but He was a Baby.

Also they did not go to the bathroom either because it is not in the New Testament Bible.

Photobucket

10 posted on 01/15/2012 2:51:10 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Good Grief! Double again!


11 posted on 01/15/2012 2:52:07 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: BipolarBob

What word does your bible have?


12 posted on 01/15/2012 2:52:18 PM PST by BenKenobi (Rick Santorum - "The Force is strong with this one")
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To: BipolarBob

Ephesians 4

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.


13 posted on 01/15/2012 2:57:34 PM PST by BenKenobi (Rick Santorum - "The Force is strong with this one")
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To: bagadonutz

Indeed. One Lord, One Church, One Truth.


14 posted on 01/15/2012 2:57:46 PM PST by narses
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To: toothfairy86

“In the early Christian Church, everybody was considered “Catholic”

Yes, and the “Catholics” of the early Christian Church believed in the true prescence of Christ in the Eucharist just as the Catholic Church of today continues with this timeless teaching of Jesus:

St. Paul himself could not have been more clear: 1Cor 10:16, “The cup of the blessing that we bless, IS IT NOT THE SHARING OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? And the bread that we break, IS IT NOT THE PARTAKING OF THE BODY OF THE LORD?”

I agree, the non-Catholic Christian Churches of today hold little in common with the original “Catholic” church of the apostles.


15 posted on 01/15/2012 2:58:18 PM PST by motoman
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To: johngrace

Extremism in the posting of Truth is a Virtue, if I may misquote Barry.


16 posted on 01/15/2012 2:59:12 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

We Anglicans still call ourselves “catholic”.


17 posted on 01/15/2012 2:59:40 PM PST by SuzyQue (Don't believe everything you think.)
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To: BipolarBob
Are you sure you're not playing loosy goosy with a private interpretation?
Oh yeah, I am sure.

Unlike the weirded out backwoods preacher types, actually going to source documents and accepting the truth helps. Or you can perform a do-it-yourself orchidecthomy like the cult leader of the Hale comet crowd did, or kidnap yourself like "Sister" Aimee.



18 posted on 01/15/2012 3:02:01 PM PST by narses
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To: SuzyQue

I know, and many of you are returning Home to Rome as the Arch-Druid and his weirdness become more than they can bear.


19 posted on 01/15/2012 3:03:54 PM PST by narses
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To: toothfairy86

Not everyone was catholic. There were catholics and heretics. And there were plenty of heretics, as well as cults posing as Christian, as there are today.


20 posted on 01/15/2012 3:04:45 PM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: Cicero; SuzyQue

Cicero wrote:

That was one reason why I left the Anglican Church, because like Newman I concluded that there was no way that it could be the universal Church, throughout the world and through all time since its founding by Christ. I received great good from growing up in the Anglican Church. I have read and considered its own claims to be universal and apostolic, and I found that I simply could not justify those claims.

Well said.


21 posted on 01/15/2012 3:06:10 PM PST by narses
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To: Honorary Serb

Good point!


22 posted on 01/15/2012 3:07:36 PM PST by narses
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To: narses
Catholic simply shows that the Church is universal. Which as a non "Catholic" there is no disagreement with the idea that there is only one Church which is the body of Christ on earth. This idea is completely scriptural.

Just because someone picks up a good word and incorporates it into their title doesn't mean anything. Are the LDS the real saints because they incorporate the word "saint" into the name they chose for their supposed church. No. Neither is the Catholic Church the true Church because they chose the name "Catholic" as their title.

And yes, they murdered countless people who did not agree with them. They were in power. The Jewish religious system that was in power at the time of Christ rejected and murdered Him. Being the religious system in power does not make you right. The Jewish religious system was abolished and will not come back until Jesus comes again.

In fact catholic means that all people who believe in Jesus are a part of the universal Church, not that you have to be "Catholic" to be a member of the universal Church.

________________________________________________________

] Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; all]

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

23 posted on 01/15/2012 3:07:46 PM PST by Bellflower
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To: narses

More insults. Hope you feel better.


24 posted on 01/15/2012 3:10:50 PM PST by BipolarBob (I don't mind you shooting at me, Frank, but take it easy on the Bacardi!)
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To: Bellflower
In fact catholic means that all people who believe in Jesus are a part of the universal Church, not that you have to be "Catholic" to be a member of the universal Church.
Eh, no. Then Our Lord would have NOT founded ONE Church, appointed Apostles to govern that ONE Church and given them the power to do so.
“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

25 posted on 01/15/2012 3:11:54 PM PST by narses
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To: BipolarBob
More insults.

26 posted on 01/15/2012 3:12:41 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

Believe me, I could put up a lot of really weird Catholics pictures up too. Just follow Catholic threads on FR and you will find all kinds of deviant Catholics that are discussed. You prove nothing.


27 posted on 01/15/2012 3:13:56 PM PST by Bellflower
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To: narses
When Did Christians First Call Themselves “Catholic”?

April 19th 692 AD 4:38 PM Central time.
28 posted on 01/15/2012 3:17:02 PM PST by Krankor (Her voice was soft and cool. Her eyes were clear and bright. But she's not there.)
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To: Bellflower

So? “Deviant Catholics” are by definition, well, deviant. So?


29 posted on 01/15/2012 3:17:17 PM PST by narses
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To: BipolarBob

Who do you think authenticated the books known as the “Bible”? To authenticate you must have authority given by Christ to St. Peter and his Apostles. It is the Catholic Church that placed its imprimatur on the books we call the Bible and discarded other tracts known as the agnostic gospels. Go check it up.


30 posted on 01/15/2012 3:18:24 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: narses
"The word catholic (derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal") comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (kath'holou), meaning "on the whole," "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and όλος meaning "whole". The word in English can mean either "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing" or "of the Roman Catholic faith" as "relating to the historic doctrine and practice of the Western Church."

It was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages. In non-ecclesiastical use, it derives its English meaning directly from its root, and is currently used to mean

universal or of general interest;
liberal, having broad interests, or wide sympathies

or inclusive, inviting and containing strong evangelism.

All Christians believe in the Catholic Church. Not all believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the totality of the Catholic Church.

31 posted on 01/15/2012 3:18:29 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: narses
Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

32 posted on 01/15/2012 3:20:09 PM PST by Bellflower
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To: Bellflower

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


33 posted on 01/15/2012 3:23:38 PM PST by narses
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To: Honorary Serb

Yes, I see your point. But basically, people either thought of themselves as Christian believers or non-Christians. There didn’t seem to be the multitude of organized denominations that there are today.


34 posted on 01/15/2012 3:24:03 PM PST by toothfairy86
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To: narses
When Did Christians First Call Themselves “Catholic”?

When did Christians start ignoring the direct access to the Throne of Grace and start praying to dead Christians for help?

35 posted on 01/15/2012 3:33:54 PM PST by tbpiper
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To: narses; Cicero

Cicero must know that that is not what the Book of Common Prayer says re: the word “catholic”.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
...
Remember, Lord, your one holy catholic and apostolic
Church, redeemed by the blood of your Christ. Reveal its
unity, guard its faith, and preserve it in peace.
...

Father, we pray for your holy Catholic Church;
That we all may be one.


36 posted on 01/15/2012 3:42:17 PM PST by SuzyQue (Don't believe everything you think.)
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To: tbpiper
When did Christians start ignoring the direct access to the Throne of Grace and start praying to dead Christians for help?
Oh please tell us. Please. Direct from the Throne of the Single Wide Church. Give us the answer, please!
37 posted on 01/15/2012 3:45:41 PM PST by narses
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To: toothfairy86

Agreed. I would put it as “Catholic” means universal and also can mean that present day organization headquarted in Rome with Benedict as its head. Propagandists play on the confusion engendered by the ambiguity.


38 posted on 01/15/2012 3:46:55 PM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: narses

“when did Christians first call themselves Catholic?”

A hell of a long time before they didn’t.


39 posted on 01/15/2012 3:48:08 PM PST by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: narses
It is also important to consider the full context of that letter.:

Chapter 6. Unbelievers in the blood of Christ shall be condemned

Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12 Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

Chapter 7. Let us stand aloof from such heretics

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

It is clear that according to St. Ignatius the Holy Catholic Church, the Church which is where Christ is -- is also the Church believing in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and ruled by bishops, and not some sum total of all Christians as some would like to interpret the word.

40 posted on 01/15/2012 3:51:05 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
St. Ignatius of Antioch was primarily concerned with the local Church under its bishop, which he called “Catholic” and not the universal Church.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2833372/posts

Nontheless, the earliest documents show that the Church of Rome held a pre-eminence among the local Churches that comprised the Universal Church from early on.

“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416
http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/primacy.htm If it weren't for this fact, I'd be Eastern Orthodox.

41 posted on 01/15/2012 3:54:22 PM PST by rzman21
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To: narses
You're the one who mocked non Catholics with your pictures of deviant, wild eyed non Catholics. I say to you with your mocking pictures, "so".

Because you have a definition of a deviant doesn't mean you are right. Jehovah Witnesses have those they shun as deviants but they are far from right. The main thing you have going for you is that you think that you are right.

If your Pope is an Apostle where are his many miracles or do you have something to explain that away?

Also, if your many Popes are Apostles why aren't there gates in the Holy City of God with all of their names on them. There are only twelve gates with the names of the twelve Apostles on them. Also, the Apostles are the foundation of the Church which has been laid. Excuse me but the foundation lies under the Church not throughout it. _____________________________________________

Act 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

__________________________________________

Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

Act 14:1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.

Act 14:2 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.

Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

Act 14:4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.

_____________________________________________

Act 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid [them] on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

_________________________________________________

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

_______________________________________________

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

42 posted on 01/15/2012 3:58:55 PM PST by Bellflower
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Are you aware of how many other “rites” there are in the Catholic Church other than the Latin (what you call Roman Rite)?


43 posted on 01/15/2012 4:00:23 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses
Direct from the Throne of the Single Wide Church.

You lost me on that one. What in the world are you trying to say?

44 posted on 01/15/2012 4:00:50 PM PST by tbpiper
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To: narses
Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Acts 26:28
Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.”

Romans 12:9
[ Behave Like a Christian ] Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Galatians 5:1
[ Christian Liberty ] Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Colossians 3:18
[ The Christian Home ] Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

Colossians 4:2
[ Christian Graces ] Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving;

1 Peter 4:16
Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.

Mathew 16:18

18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

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Not only is the word Catholic not in Mathew 16, it's nowhere in the bible.

45 posted on 01/15/2012 4:02:04 PM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: tbpiper

Bam. Good post. Thanks


46 posted on 01/15/2012 4:04:35 PM PST by TheZMan (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2794639/posts)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
47 posted on 01/15/2012 4:05:34 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: narses; Bellflower

Hi Narses and Bellflower-Technically I believe Bellflower is right. I do not have all the Data but from the catholic sources I read she is a christian if valid baptism.


48 posted on 01/15/2012 4:07:30 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: CTrent1564
“My Bible doesn’t have the word[s] “Bible in it either”, Nor Holy Trinity, Incarnation, Original Sin, Two Natures of Christ yet One Divine Person. I also don’t find the word “abortion in it either” for example.”

Does anything you quoted above put the word Catholic in the bible? Does the fact that the word “bible” doesn't appear in the bible mean there is no bible?

As I pointed out the word “Christian” appears in what everyone knows as the bible many times, but NOT the word Catholic. Whether Trinity or (you forgot) rapture appear in the bible has NOTHING to do with the fact that Catholic doesn't. Lots of words don't appear in the bible. Catholic happens to be one of them. The bible says they were “Christians” not Catholics. Get your facts right.

49 posted on 01/15/2012 4:11:28 PM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: tbpiper
When did Christians start ignoring the direct access to the Throne of Grace and start praying to dead Christians for help?

Technically known as "poisoning the well," this is a great example of a question that assumes an incriminating falsehood ("start ignoring the direct access to the Throne of Grace") before positing the actual question. Of course, the time-honored exemplar of the kind is, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

But to answer your question, Christians started "praying to dead Christians" for help once they realized that (a) there are no "dead Christians"; believers who have fallen asleep are alive in Christ Jesus and in the presence of God; and (b) the Church is the Body of Christ, whose bonds of charity are not sundered, broken, or destroyed by the power of death.

50 posted on 01/15/2012 4:12:10 PM PST by Campion ("It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins." -- Franklin)
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