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Pope says uniting Christianity requires conversion
cna ^ | January 18, 2012 | David Kerr

Posted on 01/18/2012 3:19:15 PM PST by NYer

Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass for the Feast of the Epiphany in St. Peter's Basilica on Jan. 6, 2012

Vatican City, Jan 18, 2012 / 02:15 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Benedict XVI said today that achieving Christian unity requires more than “cordiality and cooperation” and that it must be accompanied by interior conversion.

“Faith in Christ and interior conversion, both individual and communal, must constantly accompany our prayer for Christian unity,” said the Pope to over 8,000 pilgrims gathered in the Vatican’s Paul VI Audience Hall on Jan. 18.

The Pope’s comments mark the start of the 2012 Week of Prayer for Christian Unity that runs until Jan. 25. It will be observed by over 300 Christian churches and ecclesial communities around the globe. 

The Pope asked for “the Lord in a particular way to strengthen the faith of all Christians, to change our hearts and to enable us to bear united witness to the Gospel.”

In this way, he said, they “will contribute to the new evangelization and respond ever more fully to the spiritual hunger of the men and women of our time.”

The Pope explained that the concept of a week of prayer for Christian unity was initiated in 1908 by Paul Wattson, an Episcopalian minister from Maryland. One year later, he became a Catholic and was subsequently ordained to the priesthood.

Pope Benedict recalled how the initiative was supported by his predecessors Pope St. Pius X and Pope Benedict XV.  It was then “developed and perfected” in the 1930s by the Frenchman Abbé Paul Couturier, who promoted prayer “for the unity of the Church as Christ wishes and according to the means he wills.”

The mandate for the week of prayer, the Pope underscored, comes from the wish of Christ himself at the Last Supper “that they may all be one.” He observed that this mission was given a particular impetus by the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) but added that “the unity we strive for cannot result merely from our own efforts.” Rather,  “it is a gift we receive and must constantly invoke from on high.”  

The theme for 2012 Week of Prayer – “All shall be changed by the victory of Jesus Christ our Lord” – was crafted by the Polish Ecumenical Council. Pope Benedict said it reflects “their own experience as a nation,” which stayed faithful to Christ “in the midst of trials and upheavals,” including years of occupation by the Nazis and later the Communists.

The Pope tied the victory the Polish people experienced over their oppressors to overcoming the disunity that marks Christians.

He said that the “unity for which we pray requires inner conversion, both shared and individual,” and it cannot be “limited to cordiality and cooperation.” Instead, Christians must accept “all the elements of unity which God has conserved for us.”

Ecumenism, the Pope stated, is not an optional extra for Catholics but is “the responsibility of the entire Church and of all the baptized.” Christians, he said, must make praying for unity an “integral part” of their prayer life, “especially when people from different traditions come together to work for victory in Christ over sin, evil, injustice and the violation of human dignity.”

Pope Benedict then touched on the lack of unity in the Christian community, which he said “hinders the effective announcement of the Gospel and endangers our credibility.” Evangelizing formerly Christian countries and spreading the Gospel to new places will be “more fruitful if all Christians together announce the truth of the Gospel and Jesus Christ, and give a joint response to the spiritual thirst of our times,” he explained.

The Pope concluded his comments with the hope that this year’s Week of Prayer for Christian Unity will lead to “increased shared witness, solidarity and collaboration among Christians, in expectation of that glorious day when together we will all be able to celebrate the Sacraments and profess the faith transmitted by the Apostles.”

The general audience finished with Pope Benedict addressing pilgrims in various languages, including  greeting a group of men and women from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, before leading the crowd in the Our Father and imparting his apostolic blessing.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Ministry/Outreach
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To: boatbums

Amen sister , that is my prayer too (for him to give a heart that is true to HIM)


1,151 posted on 01/30/2012 10:40:17 PM PST by Lera
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To: Jvette

If the Roman Catholic church was infallible they would know that the God of Abraham , Issac and Jacob was not the same as allah . I they were infallible they would not believe that lie , the lie that is setting them up for their fall.


1,152 posted on 01/30/2012 10:49:42 PM PST by Lera
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To: Jvette
God uses sinful people to lead His people, that was the point.

No you missed the point . He uses humble repentant people that put HIM first.
1,153 posted on 01/30/2012 11:22:11 PM PST by Lera
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To: smvoice

Now you know that a concept like that is going to throw the Catholic mind into a tizzy.


1,154 posted on 01/31/2012 5:49:20 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums

It’s interesting to watch the trend of Catholics constantly giving the credit for scripture to the RCC and non Catholics giving credit to God for inspiring and preserving the scriptures. Rather telling if you ask me.


1,155 posted on 01/31/2012 6:02:32 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: boatbums; daniel1212
I agree, the JEDP idea is from satan himself. Just another effort to discredit Holy Scripture. There's a reason he wants to neutralize the “Sword of the Spirit” - the ONLY offensive weapon we have.

It keeps getting back to the very first words of Satan recorded in the Bible......Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say,...

It worked then and he's still getting mileage out of it today.

1,156 posted on 01/31/2012 6:07:38 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear
It’s interesting to watch the trend of Catholics constantly giving the credit for scripture to the RCC and non Catholics giving credit to God for inspiring and preserving the scriptures. Rather telling if you ask me.

Indeed......

Really, who needs God when the Catholic church is there to take credit for everything and provide it for us?

/roll eyes

1,157 posted on 01/31/2012 6:17:51 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: D-fendr
Nice try, Scoobydoo. However, I gave you the place where I got my information in my former post: "Through the Bible in Seven Hours. A Strategic Grasp of the Bible." Richard Jordan. Session II; "Why Four Gospels?" pp. 57-59.

You are attributing to me something that you have decided about me. Solving "mysteries" is not your strongpoint. Neither is pigeon holing people. You keep looking for "the place" where people who are not Catholic get their views. It's called THE BIBLE. And it solves LOTS of mysteries. Like the "Mystery Hid in Scripture" of Rom. 16:25,26, or the "Mystery Hid in God" of Eph. 3:2,3. Those are found in the Bible. And are TRUE mysteries that could benefit your "hard work" for the Lord.

1,158 posted on 01/31/2012 9:05:25 AM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: boatbums

I notice that you have spurned the various KJV Bibles in your efforts. http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-15.htm gives us this:

New International Version (©1984)
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

New Living Translation (©2007)
so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

English Standard Version (©2001)
if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

International Standard Version (©2008)
in case I am delayed, so that you may know how to behave in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
But if I delay, that you may know how it is necessary to behave in the household of God, which is the church of THE LIVING GOD, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
in case I’m delayed. I want you to know how people who are members of God’s family must live. God’s family is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

American King James Version
But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

American Standard Version
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Darby Bible Translation
but if I delay, in order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.

English Revised Version
but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Webster’s Bible Translation
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Weymouth New Testament
But, for fear I may be hindered, I now write, so that you may have rules to guide you in dealing with God’s household. For this is what the Church of the ever-living God is, and it is the pillar and foundation-stone of the truth.

World English Bible
but if I wait long, that you may know how men ought to behave themselves in the house of God, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Young’s Literal Translation
and if I delay, that thou mayest know how it behoveth thee to conduct thyself in the house of God, which is an assembly of the living God — a pillar and foundation of the truth,

Foundation or ground is the norm. The pillar supports off where? The base or foundation or ground. Nice try, though.


1,159 posted on 01/31/2012 9:19:40 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: D-fendr
When our protestant friends revisit these issues and take an old road, they appear to to think it is a new and direct revelation (because they discovered it!), not knowing it is an old trail, traveled a while and then abandoned by the Church for the good reason that it ends in obvious error.

New twists on old errors.

1,160 posted on 01/31/2012 9:21:13 AM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: metmom
I've talked to people who've been saved out of drugs and alcohol and gambling and porn, and what happens with them is that they lose all desire for doing that stuff. Something they embraced and lived for now means nothing to them or is now repugnant. They don't do it any more because they don't WANT to do it. They have that new nature that isn't interested in those things. It's not a matter of working up self-control and by force of will fighting the addictions. They leave on their own.
Lera ---> had a mouth that could make sailors blush (you know the expression swear like a sailor - my apologies to real sailors (my parents did not raise me that way either ... my mom was a real lady)
Lera ---> addiction was thrill seeking think Evel Knievel type thrill seeking (I won't go into details but yes I was that kid who was smart enough to be in that chemistry class but stupid enough to think it was funny to make it go boom ... we won't even begin to talk about fast cars and bikes ...or trying to jump off stationary objects with parachutes)

The changes are real and Holy Spirit does clean them up and take those desires away.
1,161 posted on 01/31/2012 10:13:19 AM PST by Lera
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To: D-fendr
Our protestant friends seem unacquainted with these, where the various poles fall at their ends, the errors that arise under examination, the work and manner of resolution of these errors long ago into what is the one, holy, universal and apostolic Church teaching.
When our protestant friends revisit these issues and take an old road, they appear to to think it is a new and direct revelation (because they discovered it!), not knowing it is an old trail, traveled a while and then abandoned by the Church for the good reason that it ends in obvious error.
All Catholics need to do is demonstrate what the Church's examination, guided by the Holy Spirit, revealed a thousand or more years ago.


Our Catholic friends fail to realize that after they took it upon themselves to declare what was error in the church when they married the world ... after they decided to take into their own hands and judge and condemn those Christians who did not follow them ... that THOSE Christians they killed were replaced by other people ... That the VOID they created became the SWORD that chased them out of the middle east and is still the SAME SWORD that is currently terrorizing what currently still remains their. They fail to realize that they brought this curse upon their own heads by how they treated others including the Jews... they fail to realize that to this day they continue these curses and that it is coming back on their own heads.... soon their will not be a place for them to run.
1,162 posted on 01/31/2012 11:04:53 AM PST by Lera
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To: smvoice
I gave you the place where I got my information in my former post

Well, duh, that's where I got it.

You are attributing to me something that you have decided about me.

I posted a video of the preacher/author you cited and links to the theology. I assume that this is a preacher whose teaching you believe, a teaching you follow. Is this in error? You don't believe this teaching?

You keep looking for "the place" where people who are not Catholic get their views.

In the case of this sect, it's from guys who claim they "rediscovered" the truths of the Christian faith as late as 1950, a claim which you, apparently, believe.

Can't wait to hear what they rediscover in 2012!

1,163 posted on 01/31/2012 11:06:19 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Lera

erred in where I placed the html code for italics .It should be at the paragraph break as that is the entire quote .


1,164 posted on 01/31/2012 11:08:28 AM PST by Lera
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To: Lera

History is not your strong suit.


1,165 posted on 01/31/2012 11:09:04 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Lera; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Quix; wmfights; Iscool; ...

To God be the glory! Speaking of Evel Knievel did you ever watch his testimony of salvation, just months before he died? Amazing grace. Honest and Powerful. Given at Crystal Cathedral no less, which i am sure was because they and Schuller needed to hear it. Knievel basically gives an off the cuff sermon and invitation resulting in mass baptisms, well, sprinkling, and i cannot say they all had the conviction (Jn. 16:9) that precedes true conversion.

http://youtu.be/ueXtsPlYTag (note it is a given that links do not affirm all the source offers)

“I don’t know what in the world happened. I don’t know if it was the power of the prayer or God himself, but it just reached out, either while I was driving or walking down the sidewalk or sleeping, and it just—the power of God in Jesus just grabbed me. … All of a sudden, I just believed in Jesus Christ. I did, I believed in him! … I rose up in bed and, I was by myself, and I said, ‘Devil, Devil, you bastard you, get away from me. I cast you out of my life.’ … I just got on my knees and prayed that God would put his arms around me and never, ever, ever let me go.”

And then what do you do with George Foreman,
http://youtu.be/ynap-dvvsHY

When I was in that dressing room [after the fight withYoung], down on that floor, blood on my hand and forehead, screaming that Jesus Christ was coming alive in me, I wasn’t interested in any religion. [But] from that point on, I started reciting the Bible, talking from the pit of my stomach, in that dressing room. [I was] talking about how Jesus was God’s son and that he was alive. So when I came out of that, I asked a friend to go get me a Bible. And he said, “What kind?” And I said, “I don’t know. One like your mother has.” So, he went out and bought me a King James version of the Bible. And that’s how I got into religion.

I [previously] thought about [Islam], but one day I tore [Ali’s] jacket off of him, being the mean guy that I am, and he cussed me out so bad. And I said, “Wow! I’m like that already.” So, I left [Islam] alone....

In the past he was one of the fellows that I truly didn’t like. I really hated him. He took my title, never gave me a title shot. But, when I found Jesus Christ, the first thing that came to my mind was to make sure I shared my experience with Muhammed Ali. And over the years we became the best of friends. We’re signing notes, “I love you. George.” “I love you. Muhammed.” If he had two dollars, and you asked him [for it], he would conceal that it was his last two dollars and give it to you. We’re great friends. I love him.

There’s a photo in the book of you and Ali in 1984 reading the Bible together. Would you often read and discuss the Bible with him?

Every time I saw him, to the point that he’d hide. “Stop it. Stop it, George!” Just like he would run his mouth to opponents, I was running my mouth to him about the Bible—always pointing out a Bible scripture. He told me, “Just let me alone.” But I loved that. That was my greatest experience, explaining and showing him things in the Bible.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Celebrities/George-Foremans-Second-Chance.aspx?p=2

More various testimonies that Jesus is alive: http://www.cbn.com/700club/features/Amazing/


1,166 posted on 01/31/2012 11:44:26 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust in the Lord Jesus to save you as a contrite damned+morally destitute sinner + be forgiven+live)
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To: MarkBsnr; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Lera; Quix

Negative. It is the understanding of the Catholic Church, not just the Latin branch.

Negative, as each claims to be the OTC while one rejects no less a belief than ex cathedra papal infallibility and universal papal jurisdiction, and other issues. If it is one church with formal divisions then it is akin to what can be seen under SS Protestantism, even if in close communion.

In the Nicene Creed of faith our Church is described as the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church": "One" because there can only be one true Church with one head Who is Christ... Each of these titles is limiting in some respects, since they define Christians belonging to particular historical or regional Churches of the Orthodox communion... After the seventh Ecumenical Council in AD 787, the basic unity of faith and ecclesiastical life between East and West began to disintegrate, due to a variety of theological, jurisdictional, cultural and political differences. This eventually led to the Great Schism between East and West of AD 1054. (http://www.goarch.org/archdiocese/)

Then there are those who attempt to join together all Christian religions into one faith. They would be horrified at the idea of a service with Hindus and Christians celebrating together, yet they do not bat an eyelash at the idea of Orthodox celebrating with Roman Catholics, who with no authority broke off from the Church close to a thousand years ago. (http://www.orthodox.net/articles/against-ecumenism.html)

"The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional." — Clark Carlton, THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135

“Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory.” — http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7076

Again, negative. It was the bickering of bishops, not the discussion of doctrine that led to the schism.

That is superficial, for while i think the Filioque issue may be over emphasized and bickering may have been the occasion, and the feelings due to conflicts run deeps, (http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/TheGreatSchism.htm) the schism and other divisions often have real doctrinal issues as like above. And despite the present hugs and minimization of differences, the underlying differences are such that you have Roman Catholics warning against reconciliation. (http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partiii)

While there are some small areas in which the individuals have certain leeway in beliefs, there are the non negotiables of core doctrine.

Likewise with each church.

Sola ecclesia is what Jesus taught, by the way, and reinforced by the teachings of all the Apostles and every book in the NT.

Not as the church alone being the supreme assured infallibility authority, but Scripture as the wholly inspired assured word of God. And which its founder invoked in establishing His claims, and was reinforced by the teachings of all the Apostles and every book in the NT. in preaching Christ , “persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening,” (Acts 28:23) preaching “the gospel of God, which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures," “and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith,” (Romans 1:1-2; 16:26) by which it has its members and continued existence. (1Cor. 12:13) And which foretells and validates its ecclesiology, "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: " (Acts 15:15-16)

The authenticity of Christ and the New Covenant and the church was established both upon textual basis and the supernatural attestation it validates being given to men such as Moses, both of which Christ appealed to, (Jn. 5:36,39; 14:11) The Lord could have proven Deity simply by the latter, by that itself would not established which deity He was, but that He was the God of Israel and prophesied Messiah was established by fulfillment of Scripture in both ways,

"Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? " (Matthew 22:42-45)

"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. " (Luke 24:27) “shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ." (Acts 18:28)

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; " (Acts 2:16)

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" (Acts 2:22) "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:" (Acts 2:25) "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. " (Acts 2:33)

"Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. " (Acts 15:12) "And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, " (Acts 15:15)

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? " (Hebrews 2:3-4)

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Hebrews 1:8-9, cf. Ps .45:6,7)

While the basis of SS means a contest between claimants as it was in the past, yet under sola ecclesia you also can have formal division between churches in which each claims they are the one true Church according to their uniquely anointed interpretation. Under SS this requires more than assent of faith to an assuredly infallible magisterium which decrees they are such, but manifestation based upon Scripture and its evidences. Scripture itself, while being of God, was and is essentially established as being of God due to its unique Heavenly qualities, effects and attestation, and like true men of God and the church by it, and which in turn, evidences that the Scripture are of God insofar as they conform to it in text and supernatural testimony.

This does not negate that Christ was also conformable to “tradition,” but the “more sure word” is that of Scripture. We can see certain persons as being essentially unAmerican in being contrary to “tradition” based on what they say and do, but written documents are what best substantiate what being America represents, and how they deviate from it. And in terms of antiquity, oral tradition by nature is far more susceptible to unverifiable corruption than textual sources, and reliant upon claims of unique esoteric anointing to channel it into doctrines, with its resultant divisions, even if there are other factors involved.

The beliefs of the Pelosis et al are not based upon the personal interpretation of 'Rome'. They are based rather upon the personal freedom to create one's own beliefs or to select them in a cafeteria style.

Everyone’s actions are a reflection of what they truly believe, and if they believe they are right as Catholics then their beliefs are indeed based upon their personal interpretation of Rome, as is Pelosi's Bishop, who fosters such.

there's a question about whether this canon'' – the relevant church law – "was ever intended to be used'' to bring politicians to heel. He thinks not. "I stand with the great majority of American bishops and bishops around the world in saying this canon was never intended to be used this way.'' (Archbishop] Wuerl: Why I Won't Deny Pelosi Communion http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2247058/posts)
Rome could effectually discipline such as a Roman Catholic, but so can another church to its members. Yet the basis must be the weight of Scripture and spiritual power, by which she would be convicted or condemned.

This is one legacy of the Reformation - Luther's any milkmaid.

It is anyone's milkmaid as anyone can also claim to interpret Scripture, Tradition and history to support their church as being the OTC. But as with Scripture, the issue is who can most demonstrate and manifest it. From Moses and the magicians to the super apostles who captured the Corinthians affections (whom Paul poured his out to in testifying of his contrasting manifest apostleship in love — and warning of his rod from God), the kingdom of God is not that of self-proclamation, but of power, (1Cor. 4:20) which requires conformity to the Scriptures as the assured word of God.

The reality is that division is a consequence of being able to interpret the Scriptures under SS does not negate that unity of doctrine can be realized under the same, and that SS upholds ecclesiastical magisterium and pastoral authority and discipline in every body, while being able to interpret Rome also has the same consequence and recourse.

The Eastern branch does not have the same problem that the West did - many bishops started to adopt Protestant mindsets in the mistaken belief that they could keep people in the Faith, without requiring them to actually hold the Faith.

That is your take, but be assured they accuse Roman Catholics of being too Protestant, or the latter being infected by Roman Catholicism.

The basis of the variant Protestant churches (or non denominationals) is selection of verse upon which they choose to rely. Oneness Pentecostals versus Trinitarian Pentecostals come to mind. It is not that Scripture is infallible, it is in the interpretation and the specific selection of Scriptural snippets that differentiate individual belief systems.

I think that also is superficial, and granted, so is the exegesis of many, but rather than being an wild wild west of equally valid exegesis, the reality is (again) that UPC (united penetecostal church) types are manifest as aberrant in the light of the overall unity of SS type churches on core truths, based on manifestly Scriptural exegesis (Jesus is not praying to Himself, and all believers do not speak in tongues, etc.), and thus they are the ones who effectively contend against cults the most.

Meanwhile, as said, under the Catholic model of sola ecclesia, in which one declares their churches interpretation alone is correct, and effectively claims supreme authority over Scripture, you have the more aberrant cults.

I would say rather that Jesus' authority came from Himself, not Scriptural substantiation. He taught as one with authority, and not as a scribe, remember?

My word was not that Jesus authority came from the Scriptures, as He was/is Divine and thus assured infallible word of God and revealed in Scripture, but that His authenticity was established, that is, before men, in conformity with Scripture and its means of attestation, which is what the chief priests, etc. lacked. Regarding deacon Stephen, “a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost,” faith coming by hearing, with Scripture being the standard on what is from God, and the Holy Spirit being its author, and the opposition also "were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spake," (Acts 6:10) and who also heavily alluded or referenced Scripture as authoritative in reproving the Sanhedrin. "Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? " (Acts 7:42)

He talked with the chief priests and the rabbinical and religious authorities who memorized huge swathes of Scripture, if not the whole Torah or even Talmud. They had the words; they did not have the understanding.

Rather than chastising them for their knowledge of Scripture, Jesus appealed to it and its attestive means, and held souls accountable for their ignorance or hardness of heart in not understanding Scripture and in His fulfillment of it. And as you cannot fault creation because atheists cannot realize there is a designer behind obvious design, and hear its universal “language, (Ps. 19:1-6) nor can the blindness of the Pharisees impugn the ability of the Scripture to make one wise unto “salvation which is in Christ Jesus,” “converting the soul..making wise the simple,” (Ps. 19:7) and which Scriptures Jesus Christ referred to so abundantly. And when it came down to Jesus' Deity, the Pharisees well understood what the Scriptures taught about blasphemy, but in their blindness of heart of they failed to comprehend that Jesus Christ was indeed the God they were blaspheming.

But men, too, are fallible. Remember that most of the disciples abandoned Jesus and one who followed (Peter) denied Him three times. Words, as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the religious authorities show, are insufficient by themselves. Jesus never told us to read Scripture. He told us to have faith.

Indeed men are fallible, and thus the need for Divinely established Scriptures, and God did not need an assuredly infallible magisterium of men to establish writings as Scripture and preserve truth, and which was the authority for truth claims.

In addition, when Jesus said things like, “have ye never read?,” (Mt. 21:16; Mk. 2:25) and “search the Scriptures” (Jn. 5:39, and which was a reproof of their ignorance in the light of their conceit), and chastised souls for not knowing (Mt. 22:29) or understanding the Scriptures due to their hardness of heart because they spoke of Him, (Lk. 24:25-27) and referring to them so abundantly, then He certainly can be said to be saying “read the Scriptures.” And “faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God,” (Rm. 10:17) and the Scriptures, being wholly inspired of God, they are the assured word of God and the material means by which all must be tested. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. " (Isaiah 8:20) "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. " (Matthew 22:29)

The work that He requires of us is to believe in Him. We are to love the Lord our God with everything we have, and to love our neighbour as ourself - and by extension, everything that comes from that.

That is all sound, and as i tell the atheists, even “love thy neighbor as thyself “ presumes an underlying moral authority for determining what constitutes love and its actions, which Scripture authority is uniquely enduringly established to be. And by which the first commandment must come first before the second if it is to be effectual as it should be.

We must also realize that there are many verses that describe Jesus as a super David, a most favoured of God, and not God at all. Those who do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a favoured man (or a rabble rouser who caused a split in Judaism) also draw from Scripture.

This is true, but rather than being like they typically example, and asserting a unique esoteric anointing, and or relying on manipulative tactics, we must overcome evil with good, persuading souls by “the manifestation of the truth,” (2Cor. 4:2) and demonstrate by the collective weight of Scripture that the conclusion that Jesus is God is what is most warranted, being demanded i would say. But as in times past, this should include both text and Scriptural testimony of the power of the gospel (examine what the WTS produces). That is how men of God came to be established as such under Scripture.

It can be said here that the Reformers did look to tradition in how and why something was understood in the past, and we also can look to historical exegesis, but its value only correlates to its demonstrable warrant from Scripture. The error is when “fathers” of the faith or leaders are given inordinate weight as determinative of doctrine based upon claims made for them, over that which is written. (1Cor. 4:6)

I need to work on some computers so i may not get back to your reply quickly.

1,167 posted on 01/31/2012 11:47:37 AM PST by daniel1212 (Trust in the Lord Jesus to save you as a contrite damned+morally destitute sinner + be forgiven+live)
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To: MarkBsnr
We must also realize that there are many verses that describe Jesus as a super David, a most favoured of God, and not God at all.

NOT "WE", Mark! It's your lack of knowledge of God's Word and a man without the Spirit that says those most foolish things!

1,168 posted on 01/31/2012 12:21:21 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: daniel1212

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

THX THX.

PRAISE GOD FOR HIS TRUTH.


1,169 posted on 01/31/2012 12:29:53 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: D-fendr
History is not your strong suit.

History comes and goes but the Word of God stands FOREVER. IT has NO beginning nor NO end. IT IS TRUTH, the ONLY TRUTH as there is ONLY ONE Truth, ONE Way, ONE Life.

Jesus, The LIVING WORD. "For the Word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12

Do you know of anything else like that?

1,170 posted on 01/31/2012 12:33:51 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: metmom; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; ...

I agree, the JEDP idea is from satan himself. Just another effort to discredit Holy Scripture. There’s a reason he wants to neutralize the “Sword of the Spirit” - the ONLY offensive weapon we have.


It keeps getting back to the very first words of Satan recorded in the Bible......Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say,...

It worked then and he’s still getting mileage out of it today.


The Deception has been deepening for some time. The Vatican is clearly putting its weight behind the meme of the demonic fallen angels as being our ‘brothers’ worthy of baptism etc.

The one world religion merging Islam and Romanism etc. is making rapid progress . . . sounds like they are trying to mix oil and water . . . however . . .

IF

as some contend, the Roman Ashteroth Mary Goddess cult has been driven by satan for centuries . . . as has Islam . . . then maybe their marriage . . . will not really be that difficult. Particularly if the Anti Christ and his supernatural heavenly agents stage some very coercive events a la Ronald Regan’s mention in 5 different speeches.


1,171 posted on 01/31/2012 12:34:38 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: D-fendr
lol! I've also posted from your CC. Several times. Does that make me a Catholic? So far, I am a non-denominational protestant evangelical hyperdispensationalist catholic mormon.

When in reality, I'm a saved member of the Church the Body of Christ. Pigeon-hole THAT.

1,172 posted on 01/31/2012 1:23:08 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

If you would clarify: Do you believe what I posted in the document called: “The Grace Movement”?


1,173 posted on 01/31/2012 2:56:02 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name

Did you know that sliced bread was invented in 1927 by a jeweler named Otto Frederick Rohwedder?


1,174 posted on 01/31/2012 3:22:00 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Actually, you need to clarify. Which part of what you posted? All of it? Some of it? Since I’ve not been to the link YOU posted, I can’t tell you what is there. See, there’s the problem. YOU go to a link, and accuse me of being a part of something you find on a link. I didn’t go there. YOU DID. I posted a credit of an author from a BOOK, with pages and chapters. You posted a LINK to someplace I’ve never been. And don’t plan on going to. Unless I find it so unnerving to you as a Catholic that I feel the need to find out WHAT they are saying and HOW it fits with SCRIPTURE. You know, Sola Scriptura. “Searching the Scriptures to see if those things are so.”


1,175 posted on 01/31/2012 4:03:04 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: smvoice

The links explain what the various beliefs of the various sects of Dispensationalism are. Based on your posts, I think your beliefs will correspond with these. You cited a preacher of the Grace Movement sect of what’s termed HyperDispensationalism, it seemed logical to conclude some of your beliefs would be in line with it.

The basics of the Grace Movement, the key parts, are in the text I posted, the linked file has more. The church website of the preacher you cited has much the same.

The Grace Movement is distinguished by it’s teaching of the four losses of the church, which is why I excerpted them.

Anyway, let’s keep it simple: Do you agree with the basics of the Grace Movement below:

The Grace Movement:

Pauline Truths Lost (Order of Loss)

First: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul - II Timothy 1:15

Second: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ

Third: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ

Fourth: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone - Acts 13:39

Pauline Truths Recovered (Order of Recovery)

First: Justification by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone Recovered via Protestant Reformation in the 16th Century via Luther, et al

Second: The Difference between Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ

Recovered in the 1800’s via John Nelson Darby, Ethelbert William Bullinger, Sir Robert Anderson, et al

Third: The Pre-Tribulational Rapture of the Church, the Body of Christ

Recovered in the 19th Century via John Nelson Darby and included by C.I. Scofield in his Reference Bible, published 1909

Fourth: The Distinctive Message & Ministry of the Apostle Paul Recovered from the middle 1900’s via John C. O’Hair, Charles F. Baker, Cornelius R. Stam, et al


1,176 posted on 01/31/2012 4:33:17 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
Like I said earlier, I did not go to the links you posted. I will go there and study them, and search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. Which is the way Bible study is done.

"Various beliefs of the various sects of Dispensationalism..". A pigeon hole within a pigeon hole? Is that what you're wanting with this? Just curious.

1,177 posted on 01/31/2012 4:48:17 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: D-fendr
Did you know that sliced bread was invented in 1927 by a jeweler named Otto Frederick Rohwedder?

Typical catholic answer since they cannot utter words like, Indeed - there is nothing and never will be anything like the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God as It contains everything He knows I need straight from His mouth to my ears and heart.

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

1,178 posted on 01/31/2012 4:55:06 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: Quix
There’s a reason he wants to neutralize the “Sword of the Spirit” - the ONLY offensive weapon we have.

And it's the very weapon which is going to defeat him.

Ephesians 6:16-18 16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; 17 and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, 18 praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Revelation 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

Revelation 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘The words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword.

Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

1,179 posted on 01/31/2012 5:17:33 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: smvoice
Is that what you're wanting with this?

As I indicated early, my interest was who taught you this? In general I'm looking for what your beliefs are and who teaches them, what is their history.

I don't believe categorizing your beliefs as "Dispensationalism" is pigeon holing if it's accurate; that's why I'm asking. No more pidgeon holing than other common categories of beliefs: sola scriptura, Baptist, Calvinism, OSAS, etc. I don't know why you seem to object to the question.

There seems sometimes on here to be an aversion to identifying in detail some folk's own beliefs combined with a willingness to criticize those of the Church.

I asked you simply whether you agreed with the four basic tents that distinguish the Grace Movement. I posted them twice. It's a simple question, capable of simple response.

Do you agree with them? Disagree? Unsure? Not understand them? Not familiar with them/never heard of these before…?

1,180 posted on 01/31/2012 6:02:22 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name
Typical catholic answer

Actually I was following your lead in your reply to my post. I thought you wanted to trade non sequiturs. No?

1,181 posted on 01/31/2012 6:07:10 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
But as your previous post indicated, there are various forms of dispensationalism. I believe you referred to them as "various sects". Meaning various beliefs. Any criticizing of your "Church" comes from Bible Scriptures, or lack of, in the case of RCC. You know, comparing Scripture with Scripture, rightly dividing the Word of truth, searching the Scriptures daily to see if those things that the Roman Catholic Church alleges are so.

The Catholic Church's problem with Christianity stem from the Bible, not denominations.

1,182 posted on 01/31/2012 6:13:03 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: D-fendr

Your first mistake is implying I think like you and then trying to spin that you actually thought that. Manipulation to deceive is from the pit.

Don’t mess w/someone who has wisdom and discernment - save it for catholics who are without the Spirit.


1,183 posted on 01/31/2012 6:16:57 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: smvoice

Sects, denominations, whatever you wish to call them, they exist. Since they disagree too, I guess their argument is with the Bible as well.

So, anyway, not answering whether you agree or not?


1,184 posted on 01/31/2012 6:18:30 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name
Ah, you do wish to exchange non sequiturs as I thought.

I'm tired of it though. I think your last one would make a great bumper sticker:

Don’t Mess With Someone Who Has Wisdom and Discernment.

And Humility too!


1,185 posted on 01/31/2012 6:24:48 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

To be ‘in Christ’ is being humble.

Something those without the Spirit will never understand. Save your ‘man’ pictures, as they only impress catholics.


1,186 posted on 01/31/2012 6:30:38 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Humble is not the word that comes to mind when reading your posts.

Entertaining is one that does however.

thank you.


1,187 posted on 01/31/2012 6:40:21 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: smvoice

The 4 Gospels are also tied to the 4 living creatures of Ezekiel and Revelation.

4 is also known as the number of creation. 4 seasons, 4 main compass points, 4 natural states of matter, 4 forces, 4 dimensions, 4 double-bonds in a carbon molecule which is element number 6. 6 is the Biblical number of ‘flesh’ or ‘man’. All life is carbon-based (element #6) which has 4 bonds pointing to the created origin of life (or flesh).


1,188 posted on 01/31/2012 6:41:21 PM PST by GourmetDan (Eccl 10:2 - The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.)
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To: GourmetDan
Absolutely. The four faces of the Cherubim. Matt.:Lion. Mark: Ox. Luke: Man. John: Eagle.

Also, Exodus 26:31-32. The Four Pillars on which the Cherubim-embroidered veil hung. The four pillars display the beautiful veil. The four Gospels display the perfection of God the Son tabernacled among men.

And how Rev. 4:6,7 authenticates the ORDER of the Four Gospel accounts. Everything in God's Word is there, and in His perfect order.

1,189 posted on 01/31/2012 6:53:14 PM PST by smvoice (Better Buck up, Buttercup. The wailing and gnashing is for an eternity..)
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To: D-fendr
Humble is not the word that comes to mind when reading your posts.

It shouldn't because it can't. When one is without the Spirit, there are many things you don't get as your posts indicate.

Entertaining is one that does however.

Don't be hard on yourself - you can't understand what you aren't equipped to understand.

1 Cor 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Cor 12:7-11
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and He distributes them to each one, just as He determines.

1,190 posted on 01/31/2012 7:55:53 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

I understand you just fine. I don’t equate you with God, and I think this might differentiate the way I see your posts from the way you see them.

Still, I appreciate their entertainment value.

thanks again.


1,191 posted on 01/31/2012 8:50:22 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: presently no screen name

You are speaking as God or the Spirit aren’t you?


1,192 posted on 01/31/2012 8:53:34 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

If your thoughts turn towards God when reading the scriptures I posted, that’s the Spirit of God calling you to Him. I don’t have the power to do that.


1,193 posted on 01/31/2012 9:07:45 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Hard as it may be for you to believe, I have Holy Scriptures, and I read them. I really don’t need you to post verses to me, particularly in the haughty manner that is your online persona.

Your power for me here, is to entertain.

thanks again.


1,194 posted on 01/31/2012 9:15:05 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: CynicalBear
It’s interesting to watch the trend of Catholics constantly giving the credit for scripture to the RCC and non Catholics giving credit to God for inspiring and preserving the scriptures. Rather telling if you ask me.

It's telling me that if they can get people to believe it all came from them, then they have all the authority in the world to "edit" it, in addition to making it say whatever they want it to say. Whereas, if God is really who gave it to us, then he is who has the authority, not them, and his Holy Spirit does his job to illuminate God's truth from those Scriptures to all those who have surrendered themselves to his perfect will. I found this great article that addresses this point. It's called "Just Trust us on this one...wink, wink".

1,195 posted on 01/31/2012 11:04:16 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: MarkBsnr
I notice that you have spurned the various KJV Bibles in your efforts.

I do believe your challenge to me was "show me where any translation says it like that, I'll bet you can't". I showed you a few that used the word "pillar and buttress". So what that the KJV uses a different word, it still means the same thing and the "church" is not called the "basis" of the truth as you stated. I met your challenge. What? No gold star? ;o)

1,196 posted on 01/31/2012 11:11:59 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: D-fendr
I have Holy Scriptures, and I read them.

If you are referring to God's Word, without the Spirit you can understand them as your posts show.

in the haughty manner that is your online persona.

I'm a spirit filled child of The Most High God. Beggars are envious and will ridicule what they don't have to feel better.

Enjoy your entertainment, the Vatican/RCC has plenty more for you that you can't imagine. And then you will see haughtiness and I don't mean the haughtiness of extending the hand for the ring to be kissed - although that has prepared their subjects of what's to come.

1,197 posted on 01/31/2012 11:39:28 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: boatbums; CynicalBear; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; caww; ...
It's telling me that if they can get people to believe it all came from them, then they have all the authority in the world to "edit" it, in addition to making it say whatever they want it to say.

Or even more importantly, not just editing it and claiming the sole right to interpret it, but ADDING to it. If they claim authorship, then they can claim the authority to add to it any extra-Biblical teachings and declare it of equal authority and inspiration as Scripture.

That's what is so insidious about their claim of authorship of Scripture and claims of being responsible for its existence.

1,198 posted on 02/01/2012 6:42:14 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: presently no screen name

Seems to me the only ‘spirit’ you’ve exhibited here is one of anger and strong need to attack Christ’s Church - with more than a little holier than thou thrown in as usual.

Empty jabs, swinging at air, weak imitations of a puffer fish. It is mere entertainment, like watching an internet temper tantrum.

Like this one, each time you start a discussion with me, your content is the same: nonsense and pompous insults.

While I enjoy the break from actual discussion, I have to wonder: How is this working for you?


1,199 posted on 02/01/2012 7:54:05 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: metmom

By adding to it and changing what in essence they are saying is the same old question - Did God really say ?


1,200 posted on 02/01/2012 9:06:17 AM PST by Lera
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