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Pope says uniting Christianity requires conversion
cna ^ | January 18, 2012 | David Kerr

Posted on 01/18/2012 3:19:15 PM PST by NYer

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To: editor-surveyor
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361 posted on 01/19/2012 8:42:31 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: metmom
Read the article I just pinged you to for the non-misinterpreted meaning of what "law" Paul is teaching about here.

;)

362 posted on 01/19/2012 8:42:45 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; editor-surveyor
Romans 4:13-16 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,...

363 posted on 01/19/2012 8:45:08 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Same misinterpretation.

So, again: read the linked article to understand what Paul is teaching here and to whom about the law.


364 posted on 01/19/2012 8:53:02 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; editor-surveyor

Christ fulfilled ALL the righteous requirements of the Law.

ALL of it.

Through faith, that righteousness is imputed to us by God Himself.

We are then clothed in the righteousness of Christ. When God looks at us, He sees us as righteous as Christ is because He sees CHRIST’S righteousness.

Adding our own works to that to earn salvation is an exercise in futility.

How can our allegedly good works, twisted and corrupted by sin as they are, be added to the perfect, holy righteousness of Christ we already possess as God’s children through faith to gain salvation? How can perfection be improved upon by imperfection?

The very idea is ludicrous.


365 posted on 01/19/2012 8:55:06 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

As you see it in this theology, how would you define “works”?


366 posted on 01/19/2012 8:55:44 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: metmom

Or, similarly:

How can our allegedly good faith, twisted and corrupted by sin as it is, be added to the perfect, holy righteousness of Christ...

Good doesn’t *need* for anything. Yet, He says:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”


367 posted on 01/19/2012 9:00:57 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor

**The scripture deliberately eliminates works. **

And God worked for six days of creation and then rested on the seventh day?? And you say there is no work?


368 posted on 01/19/2012 9:02:40 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: editor-surveyor

“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.” C.S. Lewis


369 posted on 01/19/2012 9:03:59 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: editor-surveyor

“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.” C.S. Lewis


370 posted on 01/19/2012 9:04:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: editor-surveyor

How’s your perfect Sunday worship going?


371 posted on 01/19/2012 9:07:39 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass ,Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: metmom

372 posted on 01/19/2012 9:08:57 PM PST by narses
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To: metmom; rzman21

To me, the error is quite simple: It’s based on an abstract that does not exist in reality: Faith vs. works; faith you have versus faith you do, etc.

For example: If I truly believe I have faith in my money in my bank, yet I withdraw all of it, do I have faith in the bank? Really?

Faith is trust. If your actions betray your lack of trust, you really don’t trust.

The two are inseparable: Faith is what you have that results in what you do. You cannot trust and at the same time act out a lack of trust.

Separating them is a mind-construction, abstract and not real - and something Paul, the other Apostles would never teach. If you start with this idea, you’re headed in a wrong direction, fast.


373 posted on 01/19/2012 9:09:25 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: editor-surveyor
The Bible tells us that Faith is completed by works.

Don't you have that in your book of James?

James 2: 14-26
 
Faith and Works.* 14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i 15If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?j 17So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?k 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”l 24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m 26For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


374 posted on 01/19/2012 9:10:04 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Great quote, it expresses it perfectly. And Lewis said it in 20 words.

thanks...


375 posted on 01/19/2012 9:12:52 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Like you, I loved it when I first saw it and copied it into my computer for future use!


376 posted on 01/19/2012 9:15:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Faith is answered with salvation, thus leading to works.

Works are a good indicator; if there are no works, then there wasn’t likely any salvation. That is Paul’s point of view, and Paul was the only one to receive direct infusion of the gospel from Christ himself; the others had to figure it out piecemeal.


377 posted on 01/19/2012 9:17:38 PM PST by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: rzman21

“The Pope saves souls.”

Then:

“We have people here holding up their private interpretation of the Bible as if it were from God.”

Jesus saves souls.

A universal “interpretation” of the Bible in Christain circles.


378 posted on 01/19/2012 9:19:46 PM PST by Syncro (Gonzo for President! (Hunter Thompson : >)
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To: editor-surveyor
That is Paul’s point of view

No, it's teased out by some using some parts of Paul and not others and then ignoring contradictions in other scripture.

We can be pretty sure salvation was important to Paul, he wrote quite a bit about it. If his point of view was: "We are saved by faith alone," he almost certainly would have said so. But he didn't.

379 posted on 01/19/2012 9:30:41 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

What was that Catholic plan of salvation again?

Bland assertions don't cut the mustard. What was that secret knowledge taught by Christ to his Apostles that we cannot otherwise find in the scriptures? Was it in the writings of the early church fathers? If it be in the early practice, then what do know of that but which has been written concerning it?

If there be evidence or belief in that, then lets severely restrict that which we can claim is "of the faith taught by Christ to His Apostles" to the first generation or two of church writers. For if they do not speak of a thing, or they speak contrary to that which later arises (which can be found to have occurred) then how can we then say with any certainty that something coming into discussion in the late 2nd century and even much later like the forth, fifth or sixth--- can be said to have been of the original teachings, if we are not consulting the scriptures --- or some secret body of teachings kept hidden from us all so well?

Viva Voce? (Whatever we say?)

I was told earlier today that 3 of the solas have long been accepted by the Catholic Church. One of them, by grace alone I highlighted in bold, just as I have here, and pinged your own self to my original comment here, for that very reason. Grace.

380 posted on 01/19/2012 10:20:54 PM PST by BlueDragon (on'a $10 horse an' a $40 saddle I'm going up the trail with them longhorn cattle c'm uh ty-yi-yipy-)
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