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Catholics, Get Ready to Suffer
NC Register ^ | January 31, 2012 | Matthew Archbold

Posted on 02/01/2012 3:38:01 PM PST by NYer

I remember coloring in the lions on the paper my Catechism teacher had handed out. The lions in the coliseum were approaching a group of huddled Catholics.

My CCD teacher asked us if we too were willing to suffer for our faith the way the martyrs of old did? I remember looking at those cartoon lions and deciding that yes, I very much had the stuff to stare down a cartoon lion. Easy.

But it’s easy to answer in the affirmative when we’re talking about cartoon lions. It’s different when we’re talking real life. Real lions have teeth.

And make no mistake, real life is what we’re talking now. We have a government that mandates what pro-life counselors must say. We have a government now that mandates that Catholic institutions pay for things it considers sinful. We have a government that now says the cost of being an American is to abandon Catholicism.

Bishop Fabian W. Bruskewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska in response to the Obama administration’s contraception mandate said, “We cannot and will not comply with this unjust decree. Like the martyrs of old, we must be prepared to accept suffering which could include heavy fines and imprisonment.”

This scares me but it’s true.

Now is the time when decisions must be made by Catholic college presidents and hospital administrators and the heads of all sorts of Catholic institutions. Should I do what the government tells me or what the Church tells me is right? Some whom we have great hope for will choose poorly. Some will stand up unexpectedly and refuse to comply with the government. And they will pay a price for being Catholic.

We’re no longer talking about the slippery slope here. We’ve walked off a cliff. We’re in free fall.

(Excerpt) Read more at ncregister.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics
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To: JSteff

Nope I don’t get it cause she is not God .

The WORD tells me to prostrate myself to none other .


201 posted on 02/03/2012 12:01:45 AM PST by Lera
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To: metmom
Dear Sister-

"I believe in one God, Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, Our Lord. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into death. On the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father. And He will come again to judge both the living and the dead."

James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

Intellectual assent is not saving faith." *****************************

To Be totally honest. That is not true. I speak from personal experience. Your example is Yes and No.

No on the demon. Yes on a person. It depends on the person just mouthing the words without real belief in the personal pronoun confession. But a real belief in the personal confession is true(1 John4).

James 2:19 is declaring God not Jesus Christ in the Flesh(1 John 4). You have to remember the two distinct differences.

Humans and Demons(fallen angel=Remember fallen(Why)). They(demons) were pure before there rebellion thus fallen then judged. Very dissimilar between man and angel. If you remember Christ declares the devil(s) has already been judged.

John 16:11"Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

They(demons) can not go back. It is done. They have been Judged. Period. Eternal damnation awaits them.

But some people can just say it rudimentery. Now Why. Because they have not been judged yet. Once they live there life to the end then comes the righteous or damnation judgement.

A possessed person cannot declare Jesus as Savior or came in the Flesh/human. I have personally seen this in real life. The Demon or demons are in control unless exorcised.

I have written before about this. I helped a friend move whose wife was into spell casting. She would take plastic sandwhich bags roll then up then put a spell on it for a person then put it into the freezer.

I prayed before hand to help them move from one house to the other house.. I will not have anything to do with this knowingly beforehand. I felt the Lord wanted me to go which was true.

To make a long story short or Longer(LOL!).There is alot more. Cut to the chase. She had Christian books mixed with new age (Goddess, spellcasting and other forbidden books).

She tells me she is a Christian. I declare to her in front of her Husband. You are no such person. I then told her I will prove it.

I ask her to declare it in the personal pronoun. Well she could not declare it. I told her to declare in the personal pronoun that Jesus Christ came in the Flesh/Human. Also that Divinity became Human/Flesh.

Without a Doubt she could not declare it. Nor in the form of the Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed either. When she got to try "born of the virgin Mary "she would contorted then blurt out with a stutter that there was "Many Gods".Also notice the Movies today have the Greek or Roman god characters today. The prince of the air is really brainwashing man. Heaven help us.

It was just amazing how true his word is for real. He is faithful to his promises.

1John4

You can bank on it! Praise Jesus who came in the Flesh/Human!!

1 John 4

On Denying the Incarnation

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

God’s Love and Ours

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."

I also gave her husband a Blessed Living Prayer Exorcism Medal and Cloth(Acts 19:11-12). He would show her and she would fall on the floor.

Praise Jesus! He is So True to His Word!!

AMEN! AMEN!!

202 posted on 02/03/2012 12:17:02 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: JSteff

You’re a treasure.

Greatly agree.

Praise God.

May He bless you and yours with great wholeness, provision, intimacy with Him and each other.


203 posted on 02/03/2012 12:32:30 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: mdmathis6

I’m not totally immune to that perspective.

I believe it to be overblown and that God was not limited in preserving the Gospel nor The Scriptures.

He had pockets of faith and Scriptures here and there in surprising, out of the way places . . . preserved and potent.

. . . kind of like the prophet saying he was the only one left who worshiped God.

God said ‘Not so fast. I have 7,000 prophets left who have not bowed the knee to baal.’

The arrogance of the RCC vis a vis the preservation of the Gospel and of the Bible is unwarranted. And, in some respects, is immoral to criminal on both scores. I don’t mind giving just due. The overblown stuff is unfitting, untrue, unhistorical and poisonous.


204 posted on 02/03/2012 12:40:08 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: JSteff
I gather you are unaware of this little Devotional?

What do you, then, think of the following?

And who
"exalts alternate deities"?
.
.

UNCOUNTED
MILLIONS OF
ROMAN CATHOLICS
.
ALL OVER THE WORLD
.
AT THE ENCOURAGEMENT
AND
FACILITATION OF
THE VATICAN
.
REGARDLESS
.
of
all the weasel words
documents
&
rationalizations
to the contrary.
.
Trumped-up
plausible deniability
DOESN'T WASH
WITH GOD ALMIGHTY.
...
SELF-JUSTIFICATION
DOESN'T WASH WITH GOD ALMIGHTY!
.
RITUAL DOESN'T CUT IT
WITH GOD ALMIGHTY!
.
EXCUSES
DON'T CUT IT
WITH GOD ALMIGHTY
.
.
.
In some countries,
it is a reasonable guess
that of the 20-30% practicing Roman Catholics,
the percentage who
EXALT ALTERNATE DEITIES
would be 85-95% or more.
In other countries, it might be
as low as 15-50%
Sometimes, on FR, it appears to be
90%. Other times, 70%
Sometimes, maybe as low as 30-50%.
.
.
.

Below are a list of brazen examples
from a very popular devotional
VERY SANCTIONED, APPROVED AND ENCOURAGED
by the Vatican system & hierarchy.
.
.
.

Some have said that the language below
is 'merely' hyperbolic adoration.
I don't think that's what
GOD ALMIGHTY WOULD LABEL IT.
I'm convinced that
GOD ALMIGHTY
CALLS IT
BRAZEN DEMONICALLY
FACILITATED, ENCOURAGED & LED
IDOLATRY AND BLASPHEMY.
He doesn't usually mince words.
.
.
.
WERE MARY HERSELF POSTING ON FR
I BELIEVE HER DENOUNCIATIONS OF SUCH
WOULD BE MUCH MORE FIERCE THAN MINE!
.
.
.
I was involved in a house church
famous all over Southern California
for its deliverance ministry and follow-up.
Mental hospitals and pastors sent their worst cases
to us--the ones they gave up on.
By God's grace, Christ's Blood and Holy Spirit
operating in servant-hearted love through
a lot of dedicated people who opened their homes
to such folks,
many were set free--lastingly free.
.
.
.
I learned a lot in that church.
One of the things that I OBSERVED,
I see a LOT hereon.
there's a characteristic
TYPE OF RESPONSE
WHEN A PERSON AWASH
IN DEMONIC INFLUENCES
(I don't think it matters
whether they are resident
or hovering around)
GETS CHALLENGED, EXHORTED,
HAS THEIR PRIDE PRICKED.
I see a LOT of that TYPE of response, hereon.
.
.
.

Below are the examples
of exalting other deities.
They are real.
They are serious.
They are owned,
operated in,
manifested in,
heart-felt wallowed in
by millions of Roman Catholics around the world.
Pretending otherwise does not change the facts.
White washing it with magicsterical diplospeak
doesn't change the facts.
Rationalizing it with 101 weasel words
doesn't change the facts.
.
.
.

the FACTS are easy enough to see below
for anyone with
more discernment than a gnat's.
.
.
.

Those reading this with any consciousness above comotose
no longer have any excuse.
.
.
.
Holy Spirit will be nudging, urging, forsaking of all such
--ALL HINT OF SUCH--
IGNORING HIS LEADING, NUDGING, URGING
in such matters can be spiritually deadly.
Very spiritually deadly.
.
.
.

ONCE AGAIN,
just a small part of
THE EVIDENCE: .
.
.

Here's the title:

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Meditations-Mysteries-Rosary-Ferraro/dp/0819801577/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272938246&sr=1-2

And it carries the official sanctions of:

ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.

WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR

Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .

Here they are:

However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.

p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .

p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.

5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.

6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.

"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor

p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence

p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18

p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"

p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]

p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]

9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]

p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]

5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]

p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."

p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"

p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."

205 posted on 02/03/2012 12:42:14 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix
GIVE IT A REST!

206 posted on 02/03/2012 12:45:32 AM PST by onyx (SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC, DONATE MONTHLY. If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, let me know.)
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To: Quix
TOTAL WASTE OF
BANDWIDTH!

207 posted on 02/03/2012 12:46:22 AM PST by onyx (SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC, DONATE MONTHLY. If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, let me know.)
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To: JSteff; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; jeremiah; Lera; ...

Your stance and personality are such I could come close to believing that YOU might have some significant difference between the two for

“reverence” and “respect” to be fairly distinctive terms for you.

Given the dozens of threads and loud protestations hereon regarding such, for 10+ years by some RC’s, there’s no way . . . that worship of Mary is NOT involved.

It’s like a hornet’s nest. They PROVE idolatry right and left hereon every time we turn around by their emotionality, hostility, denials etc. and the tone and character thereof.

And that Ferraro text . . . that they would defend that in the least for any reason is spiritually criminal and blasphemous. All the weasel words excusing it as flowery speech and hyper emotionality is hogwash. Idolatry is idolatry. The thought that their weasel words about it will cut any ice with God is insulting to God.


208 posted on 02/03/2012 12:49:12 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: metmom

Thank you - as always you make me think. My aching brain resents it, but I did a little research.

We are hardwired to belief. It seems that deep in every soul is the idea “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

So pervert that, rather than simply negate it. Neat and elegant. The big lie technique, in essense.

You have given me much to think on. What you say tastes right. Once more, my gratitude.


209 posted on 02/03/2012 3:45:11 AM PST by EnglishCon
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To: Quix

I think the “Babylon Mystery religion” isn’t necessarily about the Catholic church or its religious pursuasion per se, but about a pan syncretic notion that all religions are all “about trying to get to the same place”. Many mainline Protestant, Catholics, and those of other religions in the world have “drunk the same wine”. When the call is given to “come out of her, My People”, it means all of Christ’s sheep, where-ever they may be found. Indeed the call is already been given, but I think you’ll see it more amplified as time rushes towards its God ordained end.


210 posted on 02/03/2012 3:53:15 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: EnglishCon

Excellent points.

Thx.


211 posted on 02/03/2012 3:53:46 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Salvation

I was speaking generally, I know that there are many “rites” and some of them not so far away from the absolute “roots” of what all Christians MUST believe in order to be saved. Some of them are very evangelical in their out reach and mission and less into the “statue and Mary” stuff. Even the priests may differ in their approach from one another. If he had given a southern baptist style altar call, the man would had some new parishioners that very day!

One of the best sermons I ever heard was from a Catholic priest in NY city on Easter in 1987...It was a church on Park Ave...I think. Not a bit about Mary...just straight from the word, stressing the relationship between man and Christ. Powerful spiritual presence when that man spoke. If he had given a southern baptist style altar call, the priest would have had some new parishioners that very day!

That’s why I’m cautious when I look at a whole group of Catholics and I don’t paint with a broad brush. And I try to keep history in perspective!


212 posted on 02/03/2012 4:10:22 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: Quix
If I may add something?

I could go cynical and worldly with this, and probably will in spots. That is just me. Read nothing into it. We live in the world and it affects us.

Catholics can and do talk to God directly. Make no mistake on that. He speaks to everyone, regardless of if they wish it or not. He listens to everyone all the time.

Yet we have the idea of intercession and confession. Sometimes, in court, in discussion, even down the pub, you need someone to talk for you. Someone at one remove from Him, who you do not feel so worthless and insignificant talking to and admitting your failings.
And, from a purely sarcastic and secular point of view, sometimes people need Mom.

I do envy my friends in the Protestant faiths who talk daily and directly to Him. I do, much of the time. Most of my friends in the Catholic faith do. But, sometimes, you are ashamed, you know? It is slightly easier to talk to a Saint than directly to Him. He still hears, and you are more honest in talking to a saint or the Virgin than you would be in talking to Him.

It is a natural outgrowth of confession. I know enough of you to know you are a good person.
Would you stand up in the middle of church and recite your sins for all to hear? Not doctrinal things - actual sins, and we all have them.
Few would. It is easier to speak of such things in the confessional, where your judge has no face. The Saint's at least, are an extension of that. Me, I have never prayed to the Blessed Virgin but once - she is, to use the phrase, way beyond my pay grade (she answered, but it is a bit personal).
Yet confessions we all hear. Ever travelled? Long flight, terrible movie and you can't sleep. You wind up talking to the person sat next to you. You tell them things you would not tell your own mother - because you will never, ever see them again.

Then, there is a secondary aspect. “Ask and you shall receive” is a problem for a church that prays to give thanks only.
We do. We pray for others all the time. But not really for ourselves. Asking someone to pray for us is less, I don't know, aggressive?
God owes us nothing for our worship. We owe him all.
I saw a wonderful cartoon once, a bunch of saints in an office, writing out huge ledgers of prayers and one saying to another, “If I knew then what I know now, I'd have sinned HARD.”

Just my opinion, but hope it helps.

213 posted on 02/03/2012 4:23:53 AM PST by EnglishCon
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To: EnglishCon

“He listens to everyone all the time.”

Just wanted to add - I wish I had his call plan!


214 posted on 02/03/2012 4:33:51 AM PST by EnglishCon
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To: EnglishCon

“It is easier to speak of such things in the confessional, where your judge has no face.”

It’s funny, but I have a Catholic friend at work who talks about going to “ open face confessional” at his church....its just that the details are kept confidential.
Whether it is to a pastor, priest, deacon, or just very close friends, the Bible says to “confess our faults to one another.” Its very good psychology.


215 posted on 02/03/2012 4:48:20 AM PST by mdmathis6 (Christ came not to make man into God but to restore fellowship of the Godhead with man.)
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To: mdmathis6

Our priest is old school. Of course, we know who he is, but it is just easier, not having to look someone in the eye.

Mind you, if sins were soil he’d not stop digging til he reached China! Confession is no pro-forma thing for him. One of the reasons I respect him totally. No BS rationalizations accepted.

Yeah, I am lucky.


216 posted on 02/03/2012 4:53:29 AM PST by EnglishCon
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To: EnglishCon

Beautifully and redemptively put.

Thx thx.


217 posted on 02/03/2012 8:15:24 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: mdmathis6

Have long held and have said hereon many time . . .

Proddys are anemic to their own hurt re confessing one to another

. . . that they may be healed.

BTW, I try to stay up on that score quite frequently.


218 posted on 02/03/2012 8:17:09 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Talisker

Actually they were pre-Catholics.


219 posted on 02/03/2012 8:28:36 AM PST by OldEagle
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To: Quix

I came from vanilla CoE (and lapsed Jew) to being Catholic.

I’ll never try convert someone. There are too many ways to truth for me to think I have the One True Way. I have been granted one way, all lower case.

But explaining - that is a different story. I’ll talk your ear off!


220 posted on 02/03/2012 8:44:06 AM PST by EnglishCon
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To: Petrosius
Congratulations, you have just refuted the entire rational for the Protestant Reformation. Perhaps you are not as far away form home as you think.

On the contrary, that supports the Protestant Reformation and I am home as I am in Christ. I am saved by grace through faith in Christ. Alone.

221 posted on 02/03/2012 8:45:42 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: JSteff
Members of the Catholic church do not bow to images (other than that of Jesus Christ) nor is it taught to do so.

ON the contrary, I was raised Roman Catholic and there were statues of Mary in the churches and people did indeed bow down before them and pray to Mary and light candles to her.

I saw the people bowing down with my own eyes.

222 posted on 02/03/2012 8:52:03 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: johngrace
Intellectual assent is not enough. You have to repent and confess and receive.

The Pharisees had the intellectual part all nailed down. They KNEW, but their hearts were unrepentant.

Jesus whole focus is on the heart, such as in the Beatitudes.

Romans 10:8-13 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 1:11-13 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

223 posted on 02/03/2012 9:05:53 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: EnglishCon

I understand. It hurts stretching it sometimes, but is worth it in the end.


224 posted on 02/03/2012 9:11:42 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

I agree. Notice 1 John 4. About true love too. We live the life. True repentence. Of course. Amen!!


225 posted on 02/03/2012 9:19:44 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: metmom

May I ask what you add to intellectual assent to make it saving grace?


226 posted on 02/03/2012 9:36:34 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: metmom

I meant: May I ask what you add to intellectual assent to make it saving faith?


227 posted on 02/03/2012 9:38:15 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: EnglishCon; smvoice

We all need people to talk to, real flesh and blood people at that.

Yes, we take our problems and concerns to God in prayer, but there’s something so helpful about talking to another flesh and blood human being and getting the direct and immediate feedback from them that helps us work through our issues.

They can sympathize if they’ve been there. They can offer an outside perspective with clarity of thought when we’re so mired down we can’t see or think clearly. They can tell us how they worked through similar situations themselves and offer encouragement that way.

And yes, there is a place for openness and honesty in confessing to each other our faults, and sins, and weaknesses. And that’s not for forgiveness as no one man can grant forgiveness for sin that is only God’s to give for salvation. But if we have offended the person to whom we’re talking, then yes, by all means ask them to forgive you in addition to seeking it from God. But that is more for healing of relationships than a salvation issue.

There is something very healing about being able to be open like that with someone you trust. It can help you learn to put stuff behind you and move on and it can be of benefit with accountability if you so desire.

It is not good for a man to be alone. Adam had perfect fellowship with God and yet it was still not good for him to be alone. And Adam was perfect at that point. As fallen human beings, I think that need for others is exacerbated.


228 posted on 02/03/2012 9:49:14 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Petrosius; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
I'm pinging some other just for clarification. Maybe one of them can answer this question better than I, but I'm going to try anyway.

It's not a matter of adding anything to intellectual assent to change it into saving faith. If someone just adds works to intellectual assent, such as baptism, feeding the poor, etc., all they have is intellectual assent with works added.

Saving faith comes from the heart, not the mind. The mind needs to understand, but when the heart is touched, is when it responds with a wholesale selling out to God. A person can force themselves to change by knowing intellectually what they should do and by force of will, making themselves do it.

When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.

God is about relationships, not performance. He looks on the heart and judges according to that. The heart is about relationship, while the mind is about performance.

Conviction, deep, Holy Spirit inspired, conviction, convicts the heart. When one has a broken heart over his sin and then repents of it and turns to God, saving faith has been exercised. I don't know anyone who was saved without a change of heart, not anyone that I've ever met anyway.

Psalm 51 is David's heart cry out over his sin....

Psalm 51:1-17 1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your steadfast love; according to your abundant mercy blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin!

3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. 4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. 5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. 6 Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice. 9 Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. 11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and uphold me with a willing spirit.

13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will return to you. 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation, and my tongue will sing aloud of your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. 16 For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

229 posted on 02/03/2012 10:05:21 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Petrosius

I guess I don’t see saving faith as something that is works added to intellectual assent to transform it into saving faith, but as a differnt type of faith.


230 posted on 02/03/2012 10:22:35 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Campion
You can talk to them about any bizarre ideas you have about the Catholic faith cooperating with antichrist. They've faced down real antichrists in person. As I say, you can talk to them about it, in heaven ... if you make it.

Every religion has its own martyrs...Doesn't mean they died for a worthy cause...

God has put a beautiful feast in front of men in the form of the Catholic faith, but so many people spit in his face, tell him it's garbage, and pat themselves on their backs for how "faithful" they are.

Problem is; I (we) have arrived at our position by reading the words of God that he preserved for us (no thanks to the Catholic religion)...At at every turn, God condemns your religion in the scriptures...

I don't see anything in God's Holy word that would indicate your religion is the church that Jesus instituted...In fact, God warns us about your religion in the Book of Revelation...

They'll never, ever, not in a million years, catch up with the fantasies some people put out ABOUT my religion.

I don't know...It would be tough to top your religion's fantasy of salvation and grace comes thru Mary...Or that God made Mary the queen of heaven...

231 posted on 02/03/2012 11:10:24 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: metmom

I think you pretty much nailed it metmom.


232 posted on 02/03/2012 11:16:48 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Lera
even some of their own people say he will be an antichrist

I have read the same thing...They expect to be sittin in the pews while this pope preaches to them...

They seem to have some details about this period of time that is not mentioned in the scriptures...

Perhaps that comes from a vision of Mary's ghost...

233 posted on 02/03/2012 11:17:27 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: metmom; Petrosius; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; boatbums; caww

Saving faith is not intellectual assent alone, but it includes it. It is belief from the “heart” (Act 8:37), “And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God”.

The word “heart” refers to the center of all physical and spiritual life. It includes the soul, mind, and will. It is the seat and arbiter of our thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, effort, understanding, intelligence, and emotions.

It produces trust, an assured reliance; one in which confidence is placed; a dependence on something future or contingent.

It produces hope.

Rom 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”


234 posted on 02/03/2012 11:46:02 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: blue-duncan

Thank you. That is so much more concise than what I posted.


235 posted on 02/03/2012 11:58:00 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Saving faith comes from the heart, not the mind. The mind needs to understand, but when the heart is touched, is when it responds with a wholesale selling out to God. A person can force themselves to change by knowing intellectually what they should do and by force of will, making themselves do it.

When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.

God is about relationships, not performance. He looks on the heart and judges according to that. The heart is about relationship, while the mind is about performance.

Yes, there must be a turning of the will, not just of the intellect, to God. But this is the Catholic position. From the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent (1547):

CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these:

  • the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting;
  • while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance;
  • but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father;
  • the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;
  • lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
  • For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
    When Catholics reject the notion of Salvation by Faith Alone they understand faith as intellectual assent. If you broaden the term of faith to include the will then that matches the Catholic understanding as presented in Chapter VII above.

    I guess I don’t see saving faith as something that is works added to intellectual assent to transform it into saving faith, but as a differnt type of faith.

    This reflects a common Protestant misunderstanding of the Catholic position on the importance of works. The Catholic Church does not teach that we merit our through works. Again, from the Council of Trent:

    CHAPTER VIII.
    In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

    And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


    236 posted on 02/03/2012 12:48:08 PM PST by Petrosius
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    To: Petrosius
    The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

    It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

    And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

    I've had more than enough FRoman Catholics quote James at us and tell us that they'll know when they get there whether they've made it or not.

    That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

    As a matter of fact, there's this little tidbit from the Council of Trent.

    http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

    CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

    CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

    CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

    237 posted on 02/03/2012 1:47:19 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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    To: metmom
    So you are saying that you are certain they were honoring her as part of the trinity??

    So sorry you could not understand nor accept the difference between respect for the Human Mother of Christ and her being a deity. You may want to go back to religion class or CCD and learn the difference.

    They may/should have been praying to her for intercession/assistance as the mother of Christ, and asking for assistance in praying to Jesus. If they did not know the difference they NEVER learned the proper understanding of Mary or of why and how one ask Mary for way to ask her for help with their prayers to the trinity/God. They need to go back to class or speak to a priest about it. You are not taught to pray to her as God.

    My mother was a catholic school teacher and CCD instructor and did NOT teach anyone to venerate Mary as a God. That is what pagans do... speak to humans as a god or Gods.. and that is DISTINCTLY not part of the Church teachings.

    Good luck in you search.

    238 posted on 02/03/2012 1:54:52 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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    To: JSteff
    So you are saying that you are certain they were honoring her as part of the trinity??

    What's that got to do with the discussion?

    In post 192, you said, "Members of the Catholic church do not bow to images (other than that of Jesus Christ) nor is it taught to do so. "

    and in post 222 I replied with

    "ON the contrary, I was raised Roman Catholic and there were statues of Mary in the churches and people did indeed bow down before them and pray to Mary and light candles to her. I saw the people bowing down with my own eyes. "

    Throw a rock over a fence and the dog that yelps is the one that got hit.

    So where do you get that conclusion out of it, that I thought that people were honoring her as part of the Trinity, much less being certain of it? I simply addressed the fact that people bow down to statues of Mary which you said they didn't do.

    Why are you changing the subject and reading more into it than I said? I said nothing about motivation or what was going through their minds. I didn't bring the Trinity into it.

    Nice attempt misrepresenting what I said, but it's a fail.

    So the whole rest of your post is a waste of bandwidth because it doesn't actually address what I really said and addressing what you think I said is a waste of time.

    239 posted on 02/03/2012 2:15:54 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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    To: Quix
    Only with an understanding of the separation of God and man in a Matrix (the movie) type of world could one see and understand the difference between God and Mary and references in approaching Mary.

    The wording is necessarily a bit flowery and flowing. It is difficult for most to understand the separation, and yet the union of the mother of Christ to God. Not an easy concept for many to grasp the nuances.

    Similar to the many judges to grasping the word in the constitution and concepts or the church and the state and not to understand the separation of the two. It really takes a thinking mind to give it more than just passing acknowledgment or the words written and the concepts involved.

    Many never get the concepts of the meaning -vs- the words right. But to those who do it is silly to think the justices are so unable to do so also. Not a perfect explanation by any means.

    I have a great T-Shirt that says "I can tell it to you, but I can not understand it for you"
    Although that shirt and the wording is referring to computer/tech stuff it applies to this situation and discussion.

    The TV commercial "No, I am not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn" probably could also work.
    240 posted on 02/03/2012 2:24:30 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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    To: Lera

    Exactly.


    241 posted on 02/03/2012 2:26:49 PM PST by JSteff ((((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.))))
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    To: metmom
    The Catholic church does not teach salvation by faith alone.

    It teaches that baptism is necessary, that confession, communion, penance, works, etc.

    Baptism and, if after baptism one were to break communion with God through serious sin, confession yes. But these are the work of God by which his justice is infused into us. Works however, as I have shown by the quotes from the Council of Trent, do not merit us salvation. The worth of works comes after our gratuitous salvation. From the Council of Trent:

    CHAPTER XVI.
    On the fruit of Justification, that is, on the merit of good works, and on the nature of that merit.

    Before men, therefore, who have been justified in this manner,-whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received, or whether they have recovered it when lost,-are to be set the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end, and hoping in God, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Jesus Christ, and as a reward which is according to the promise of God Himself, to be faithfully rendered to their good works and merits. For this is that crown of justice which the Apostle declared was, after his fight and course, laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming. For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God,-we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace: seeing that Christ, our Saviour, saith: If any one shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst for ever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up unto life everlasting. Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own as from ourselves; nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated: for that justice which is called ours, because that we are justified from its being inherent in us, that same is (the justice) of God, because that it is infused into us of God, through the merit of Christ. Neither is this to be omitted,-that although, in the sacred writings, so much is attributed to good works, that Christ promises, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, shall not lose his reward; and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; nevertheless God forbid that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself, and not in the Lord, whose bounty towards all men is so great, that He will have the things which are His own gifts be their merits. And forasmuch as in many things we all offend, each one ought to have before his eyes, as well the severity and judgment, as the mercy and goodness (of God); neither ought any one to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything; because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged, not by the judgment of man, but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God, who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.

    Everything that is said about works refers to those who have already been justified.

    And the average Catholic thinks that if they've done enough they can get into heaven with only an extended stay in purgatory to burn off any sins they forgot to confess here on earth.

    This is not what the Catholic Church teaches about Purgatory. Those in Purgatory have already won salvation and entrance into Heaven through the merits of Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross. I would redirect you to the quote from Chapter VIII of the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent that I posted in #236.

    I would ask you to address what the Catholic Church actually teaches rather than what you might think that average Catholics might believe. There are many Catholics who do not fully understand Catholic teaching just as it is clear that Martin Luther, himself a priest, did not completely understand the Catholic theology he was charged to teach. Additionally, it is easy to misunderstand what others might be saying.

    That is NOT salvation by faith. That is salvation by works, trying to merit enough of God's favor and appease enough of His anger to allow them in.

    You will not find any such teaching in any documents of the Catholic Church, despite what any Catholic layman may or may not have told you.

    CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

    I will remind you that when Catholics speak of faith they mean intellectual assent. You yourself said that this was not enough. The "movement of his own will" is the same as what you described:

    When the heart responds to God, the heart is changed and they do what they should because they're given a new heart and new nature.
    CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

    I thought that you said that intellectual assent, i.e."only to believe", is not enough. Is only to believe without having to turn the heart and will to God through observing the Commandments enough for salvation? This is what this canon is condemning.

    CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.

    Again, are you saying that justification is only a forensic declaration by God, that God does not effect a change in us by his infusion into us of grace and charity? This infusion of grace and charity is his work, not ours.

    242 posted on 02/03/2012 2:45:22 PM PST by Petrosius
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    To: JSteff

    So then you agree that people bowing to a rock statue that is NOT GOD is a sin?


    243 posted on 02/03/2012 3:05:34 PM PST by Lera
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    To: EnglishCon

    Thanks for your kind reply.

    Civil dialogue is great.

    Happy for that.

    The harsh, abusive, fiercely rigidly haught & arrogant stuff . . . is not nice at all.

    I’d still be interested in your candid assessment of the collection of stuff in the Fararro stuff.


    244 posted on 02/03/2012 3:41:50 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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    To: metmom

    WELL PUT.

    THX.


    245 posted on 02/03/2012 3:43:23 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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    To: JSteff; metmom; RnMomof7

    I do NOT believe that the

    DIFFERENCE is found in the dogmatic church classes.

    The DIFFERENCE is found in each heart . . .

    each time, each behavior, each prayer.

    What is their FOCUS in their heart and why.

    If you can read Fararro’s stuff and avoid seeing idolatry, then I’d have to wonder about your eyes, discernment and analysis.

    Rationalized catechism ‘legal’ dogma stuff can be quite slick at splitting hairs and rationializing everything from A to Z and back to Inquisition.

    It’s a great magicsterical effort at putting thick layers of white-wash on whatever the old men’s power-mongering club decreed as best for the INSTITUTION.

    The faithful are usually much more straightforward and simple at a heart level.

    The Mary caricature is easily focused on MORE, as your own words outlined.

    Yet Christ died that we might have DIRECT ACCESS TO THE FATHER.

    Going through ANYone else is an affront to His Blood and an affront to The Father’s gift of His Son in our behalf.

    Rationalizing it BECAUSE OF OUR COMFORT ZONES

    is NOT admirable nor Biblical.

    Besides, it Grieves the authentic Mary, big time.

    Idolatry by any other name is still idolatry. Cute sanctioned weasel words don’t help any.

    Blasphemy is still blasphemy.


    246 posted on 02/03/2012 3:50:39 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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    To: JSteff; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; GiovannaNicoletta; HossB86; jeremiah; Lera; ...

    Sorry but I think we part convictions on such scores, too.

    I do NOT read Christ in the Gospels as doing

    ANYTHING

    REMOTELY

    like instituting

    ANOTHER hierarchical PHARISEE LADEN INSTITUTIONAL PILE OF RELIGIOUS MUMBO-JUMBO

    for any reason

    —particularly to rationalize God’s fiercely hated idolatry and blasphemy stuff.

    Christ had a very straight-forward, clear and simple theology.

    When one needs lawyers to ferret out

    the TRULY TRUEST TRULY TRUE meanings of a truly critical basic spiritual issues of a walk with God

    then the group or individual or institution has already fallen way off the cliff and Holy Spirit has long gone from blessing such horrifics.


    247 posted on 02/03/2012 3:55:49 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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    To: Quix

    It is my pleasure.

    I am not exactly smart - there are people on here who get theology far, far better than I, nor particularly orthodox to be honest, but I love talking about God and faith.
    It is a guilty pleasure of mine, as the Father who welcomed me to the Catholic Church was very hot on “Live your faith, don’t just talk about it.”

    He was from Missouri though ....

    Got a deadline tonight, but will read up on the Fararro stuff after I finish and post my thoughts, for what they are worth!


    248 posted on 02/03/2012 3:57:19 PM PST by EnglishCon
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    To: Lera

    So then you agree that people bowing to a rock statue that is NOT GOD is a sin?


    Um, that is in the 10 Comandments. We all have them - not just Christians of various flavors, but Jews and Muslims too.

    It is the intent that counts.

    Worshipping a statue is, of course, a sin. Using it to focus on God, well then it is a tool.
    Think of a statue as a gun, or a hammer, or a kitchen knife. It can be used for harm (mistaking the statue for God) or it can be used for good (a way of focussing)

    Going to go new age for a second. You ever tried meditating? One of the basic techniques for a novice is to watch a candle flame. It give you a focus. Eventually, you can work with just the idea of a candle, instead of the physical object. The statue is the equivalent of the candle flame, to orient peoples minds to God.


    249 posted on 02/03/2012 4:15:55 PM PST by EnglishCon
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    To: EnglishCon; Lera
    Um, that is in the 10 Comandments. We all have them - not just Christians of various flavors, but Jews and Muslims too. It is the intent that counts.

    Problem is, the second commandment deals with actions, not just the heart. The command is to not make graven images and to not bow down to them.

    Interestingly, God did not say not to worship them, but not to bow down before them.

    250 posted on 02/03/2012 4:58:08 PM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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