Skip to comments.Catholics, Get Ready to Suffer
Posted on 02/01/2012 3:38:01 PM PST by NYer
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>> “the altar is where the host is.” <<
The ‘host’ is nothing until it is broken in remembrance of Christ. It should not be an object of anything; only christ deserves your worship.
That’s too bad. Because Christ himself set up a human corporation of fishermen and tax collectors and sinners. Twelve of them were a source of deep joy for Him and He prayed for them. He also prayed to the Holy Spirit to guide them. All these years later, the Holy Spirit is still guiding the Church instituted by Christ. If one is not with that Church, one is less of a Christian, and less of a joy, to Christ.
Those who hold fast to the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church derive their joy from the fullness of the faith. It is deeper and richer than all the others. We derive our joy from knowing that we take Christ at His Word, literally. Surely, our faith is amazing to Him because we believe what others find to be too difficult to believe, though He told them to believe it. We go further out on a limb for Jesus than all the thousands of watered down versions man has developed over the years.
I take the derision from other Christians for what is is worth: more stripes for believing in Christ the way He asked us to believe in Him. The Roman Catholic Church is the church that is furthest from being pagan. We unite ourselves with Christ in the Eucharist, in the sacred Scripture we selected for the world and preserved, in the traditions He started that we carry out to this day. We are His Church. We are not the Chosen People; but we are Christ’s Created People.
If you have an open mind, read some of Scott Hahn’s books about the Catholic Church and see what you think.
>> “Thats too bad. Because Christ himself set up a human corporation of fishermen and tax collectors and sinners” <<
Christ’s church has no property, no stuff, and no documents but the scriptures. It is a mystic body that exists on no records of the governments nor of institutions of men.
It exists solely in the hearts of the believers, and in the promise from Christ to be there whenever two or more are gathered in his name.
It's no corporation. He did not come to institutionalize religion or a relationship with Himself.
If that's what He was after, the OT system of the Law was perfectly adequate.
He's growing a body, His BRIDE to love and have a relationship with, not some indentured servant to perform for Him.
Your saying it is so does not make it so.
Sorry. I witness as I see and as I am instructed by the Lord. Not our priest, not His Holiness, but as my heart commands. (yeah, I wind up getting a LOT of penance for that)
I see no idolatry. Respect, yes, as you have for the Word or the Cross. Do you worship the bible? Do you worship the cross?
No more do we worship the Virgin.
I’ll not do the cheap appeal to authority, though the authority is mostly on our side of the arguement - that is a contemptable rhetorical trick.
I will just say this.
You are, from several thousand miles away, telling me what is in my heart. Telling me that I have a problem in hearing God.
That is, to put it mildly, insulting to me. To Him too, but he can take it.
You may well be a good and godly person, I cannot tell yet. The Lord may indeed speak to you and tell you what is in every heart and mind in the world. Thus far, the evidence is he does not.
There are people on this thread who I will back 100% - back, sword, wallet or soul - who disagree with my preferred way of worship, the one I, personally, was called to by God. I respect them and pray for them as they do for me.
Read back. I have tried to explain what the Virgin and the saints mean to me - not a priest, as I am not, not as a particularly good person, as I am not, not as someone with an inside track to God’s mind, as I have not, but as a Catholic and a sinner.
Perhaps if Catholics would only speak for themselves on the issue, it might generate less flack.
If you tell me that you yourself do not worship Mary but rather respect her, I cannot with a clear conscience accuse you otherwise. That would be telling you that you were lying and that I knew the intent of YOUR heart. I am obligated to believe that you are telling me the truth. FOR YOU.
However, based on the writings provided, it is clear that some have crossed over than line and it would be impossible for you to deny that they worship her because likewise, you cannot read their mind and their words present a different mindset.
Now, the Catholic church may be officially denying Mary worship, but in reality, when they allow such things to be printed and distributed in the name of Catholicism, they are putting their stamp of approval on it, IN PRACTICE.
Their actions are not backing up their words and since actions speak louder than words, people are left to conclude that the RCC does indeed sanction Mary worship.
I would never deny that it is a problem. Some do worship the Virgin, as some do worship the Word and not he who wrote it.
Again, I am witnessing things I have seen with my own eyes in both cases. That “small still voice in the night” can be a right pain at times.
The problem is, we all see the Lord differently, because we are all different. To be honest, if a burning bush talked to me, I would wonder what the bush was and exactly how high I was going to get!
The Word is. God is. Jesus saves. Something every last one of us believes in.
We get so caught up in OUR version of the word, we fail to accept that he talks to everyone equally. And we can not hear that conversation. It is private. If we are VERY lucky, we hear someone witness their conversation.
I cannot talk for the Catholic Church. I am not His Holiness, who has the duty to. I am not a Bishop, who has the right to. I am just someone who has sailed into harbor and anchored after a very stormy life.
Eyes wide open - I need a general. Know this and accept this as a truth about myself. Felt a burning need for attonement, and the church provided that. Needed a friend, badly, and that was provided too.
Said before, and I will say it again. My friends in the Protestant faith, who walk with God, talk daily to God, live with God - they get my respect. Sometimes my envy, to be honest. It must be glorious.
It just is not for me. I am not worthy of that grace. Not yet, possibly not ever. Until then, I will follow my general and my commanders.
Feel tired now - why is truth far more tiring to write!
2675 Beginning with Marys unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries. In countless hymns and antiphons expressing this prayer, two movements usually alternate with one another: the first magnifies the Lord for the great things he did for his lowly servant and through her for all human beings29 the second entrusts the supplications and praises of the children of God to the Mother of Jesus, because she now knows the humanity which, in her, the Son of God espoused.
2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:
Have you ever heard a Protestant raise supplications and praises to a cross or the Bible? Have you ever heard a Protestant claim they could pray to anyone other than the Father in heaven?
I will, however, ask you to testify.
How did you recieve God’s grace and why. Blur the dates if you wish, I want to hear your witness.
You witness, I shall, that sounds fair.
>> “You are, from several thousand miles away, telling me what is in my heart. Telling me that I have a problem in hearing God.” <<
No, I’ve said nothing about you as an individual.
I referred in general about what gets posted here daily. Some of it is absolutely demonic.
I have been reading your comments for the past few days and what I see mostly from them is a humble man - perhaps humbled by life and its consequences - and someone who sincerely seeks to know God. More than once you have said words that sound like you view other Christians in a higher light than they truly are. I know, as a former Roman Catholic, where these thoughts originate. We are taught almost from birth that those "saints" that have gone before us are so much better than we are and that, through their deeds, they deserve their heavenly reward. It is hammered into our minds that they are our ideals to follow if we also desire the beatific vision. Sometimes, these ideals seem impossible to relate to and we spend more time condemning ourselves for our failure than we do for our minute victories.
I know that kind of self recrimination, that defeated spirit who must constantly inflict emotional punishment in hopes of one day being worthy of God's love and forgiveness. But...I found out that this is not how God desires us to live - in defeat - nor even how to imagine he views us. No, he has redeemed us from the penalties, curse and condemnation we justly deserve. While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8) Scripture says. We love him because he FIRST loved us. (I John 4:19). Jesus died on that cross because we could NOT save ourselves. We stood condemned in our sins, at enmity with God. We were once enemies of God, but now he has reconciled us through Christ's death and we are saved bu his life. (Romans 5:10.
We are ALL sinners - even those regarded as "saints" - and not one of us can ever merit or deserve the mercy and grace of God. But he loved us and does not wish any to perish and that is why Almighty God became a man and lived a perfect sinless life so that he might be our propitiation, our sacrifice for sin. God says the "wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned" and "without the shedding of blood there is no atonement for sin". None of us stands worthy before God until we have been clothed in the righteousness of Christ. We are "IN CHRIST" not having our own righteousness, but the righteousness of God in Christ. (Philippians 3:9).
Saints are all those who are sanctified by Christ - set apart and declared holy in God's sight - but NOT by any righteousness that they have done. It is ONLY through his mercy and grace that we are saved. (Titus 3:5. If you have placed your trust in Jesus Christ and believe in him as your Savior, then you too are a saint - ALREADY! You have been sanctified, justified, made righteous and redeemed by God's grace THROUGH faith. Your life now is lived by faith (Galatians 2:20 in the Son of God who loves you and gave himself for you.
No matter what has happened in your past, you have been cleansed whiter than snow and God has removed your sin from you as far as the east is from the west and the AMAZING part - he remembers your sin and iniquities NO MORE. (Hebrews 8:12) God sees us as his children now, we are joint heirs with Christ and we CAN walk in victory and he conforms us to the image of Christ. Walk in victory, Saint EnglishCon!
That it is Sir. It can get nasty from both sides.
I took a general point personally. For that I apologise.
Easy done, right?
That it is.
YES!!! It IS for you, too!!!!
Not a one of us is worthy. And there's nothing any one of us can do to make ourselves worthy. You're no different than any of us. We all come to Him as needy beggars. We look at each other and see differences and see each other on different levels, but compared to God, those differences we see don't exist. You might as well have ants comparing themselves to each other to see which one is most like a man.
That's why salvation is a gift, offered freely for the taking. Because there's nothing we can do to earn it. Not a thing.
It's when we reach the end of ourselves and recognize our total dependence on God and ask Him to do in us what we cannot do in ourselves, that He is free to work.
My prayer to God some 35 years ago was *God, if you can straighten out this mess of a life of mine, You can have it cause I'd rather be happy doing what You want me to do than to keep on going the way I am*. Not exactly the standard *sinner's prayer*, but I'll tell you what, He took me up on the offer and I haven't been the same since.
And I have friends who've prayed essentially the same prayer, not knowing much about God except that they needed Him and they were likewise transformed. And that includes drug dealing, boozing, crooks. They didn't clean themselves up first to make themselves worthy. God took care of the cleaning them up after GOD made them worthy.
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Greek word for *right* is also *authority*.
Allow yourself to become convinced that God WANTS YOU. Warts and all. We trade all that we are for all that He is and He gets all the glory for cleaning up the mess and conforming us into the image of His Son, whom He loves.
If God didn't want us to come to Him so bad, He wouldn't have gone to such great lengths to make it so ridiculously easy to come to Him.
Think of the story of the prodigal son. That father is the portrayal of our Heavenly Father's heart for US. That son who came back, likely covered in pig manure, was greeted by a father who loved him so much that threw his arms around his son and embraced him and kissed him.
That is God.
In my haste, I left out part of the prayer I prayed. Here it is, properly amended.....
My prayer to God some 35 years ago was...
*God, if you can straighten out this mess of a life of mine, You can have it. I’ll even become a missionary and go to Africa cause I’d rather be happy doing what You want me to do than to keep on going the way I am*.
Not exactly the standard *sinner’s prayer*, but I’ll tell you what, He took me up on the offer and I haven’t been the same since.
(FWIW, becoming a missionary and going to Africa was the LAST thing on this earth that I’d ever consider doing and it was the most desperate thing I could think of to promise God to show my sincerity. He never did take me up on that part.....yet)
Of course Christ came to start an organization! He had a large group of disciples from whom he selected 12 leaders. He had a network of women who helped provide for the group’s needs. He had an apostle in charge of the money. He sorted out three apostles for special insight and visions and selected one for the most special leadership.
He prayed for them, had the Holy Spirit enlighten them, and gave them rituals and traditions and lessons they were to pass on to the entire world. In the Acts we see the hierarchy in full swing, and even Paul has to seek Peter’s approval of decisions. The apostles themselves, sanctified by the grace of the Holy Spirit, started churches in various areas (parishes!) all looking to the leadership of Peter. When Peter died, the apostles themselves accepted the leadership of his successor. It has been a living, far-flung organization from the beginning!
He instituted a real Church with a real organization, a hierarchy. He established a new order with a new message that clarified what was important in the Old Testament.
Um. No. The early Church had only the Old Testament scripture and word of mouth lessons from Christ.
Judas held the purse, so apparently there was some property.
There was no Scripture written for many years. It was all oral teaching and letters to individual pockets of believers. The Catholic Church gathered them up, sifted them, collected them into the New Testament.
Christ himself started the organizational hierarchy. He selected scores of believers, trained them, and asked them to travel and bring His message to others. He selected 12 men for special closeness with Him. He selected three of those to have more intense experiences with Him. And, of those three, He selected one man to lead the entire group. That’s an organization... a hierarchy... the structure of the Catholic Church from day one!
We have priests (the traveling disciples), bishops (the 12), cardinals (the 3) and the Pope (the one to lead them all). In addition, Christ had many women who worked to meet the needs of the new Church.
It all hangs together quite beautifully if one only looks with an open mind. God loves order. Christ established an orderly Church. It is unity which characterizes Christ. It is unity which is the hallmark and earmark of His Church— the Catholic Church.
Of course, if one want to put his soul into the hands of any Billy Bob on the corner who thinks he has an insight into Scripture, he can be my guest.
As for me, I will entrust the guidance of my soul to Christ and the organization HE started. And I will continue to invite the followers of the two thousand Billy Bobs to recognize the Truth.
That was beautiful, thank you for witnessing!
Was nothing dramatic for me - a kid, brought up going to temple and to church and Sunday school, but not really thinking about either and usually wishing I could skip them.
In the army, got rotated to Germany, where we shared a base with a unit from the US. Mostly Texans for some reason, which is where I got my immense fondness and respect for Texas from.
Nothing to do on Sunday, getting a pass was a pain, so like the vast majority of off duty people, went to services. Not from faith but because anything is better than boredom!
Felt something missing in my life, and I could see the chaplain was a good person, and so serene! We talked.
He was fair, encouraged me to embrace God, but not to be a Catholic. Let me think things over and laid out the differences. He even managed to find a Rabbi to talk to me, in case I wanted to follow my father’s faith!
The acceptance of God into my life was easy - well as easy as anything is for a young punk. You know the feeling when you suddenly “get it” so no need to add to that. The non denominational services went from being something to do out of boredom to something to do from joy.
Yet something for me was still missing. I am one of those annoying people who need order, regularity and answers. The Catholic faith provided that for me. The same American chaplain who helped me find my way to God welcomed me into the Catholic church a week before my unit was rotated out.
Of course, a week after that, my unit was on it’s way to war, not that we knew it at the time ....
If you wish to follow satan’s men, keep going where you’re going; you’re on track.
The new testament epistles had been gathered together in many places 300 years before the ‘catholic’ disobediance arose. The catholics only contribution to them was the inclusion of deviant and gnostic additions.
Rock on Petrosius!
thanks for the info. and the early church fathers were also against abortion too, despite what plastic face pelosi stated.
To know history is to be Catholic.
Sal, the real church had the complete Bible 400 years before the Roman false church was created by the Pharisees that had migrated there.
The Bible is a “catholic hating pamphlet” by your standards.