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Catholic Sources and the Declaration of Independence - Democracy not a "child of the Reformation"
Our Sunday Visitor via Catholic Education Resource Center ^ | 1930 | REV. JOHN C. RAGER, S.T.D.

Posted on 02/02/2012 6:27:03 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

Catholic Sources and the Declaration of Independence

REV. JOHN C. RAGER, S.T.D.

The American Declaration of Independence, which is so admirable and dignified an expression of the American mind, is at the same time an accurate expression of the Catholic mind, medieval and modern.

The general historical background, which projected the American Declaration of Independence, is well known. There has been much discussion, however, concerning the parentage, direct and indirect, of the political principles that make the American Declaration what it is, “that most wonderful work ever struck off at a given moment by the hand and purpose of man.”

Two facts concerning this question, this paper hopes to restate and summarize rather than prove. They are:

First, the certainty and fact, beyond reasonable denial, that for many centuries prior to the American Declaration, the principles enunciated in it are identically the political thought and theory predominant and traditional among representative Catholic churchmen, and not the political thought and inspiration of the politico-religious revolt of the sixteenth century, nor of the later social-contract or compact theories.

In the second place, this paper would re-assert the existence of sufficient reasons to believe that the framers of the Declaration of Independence drew inspiration, encouragement, and political ideals from Catholic sources, particularly from the political principles of the Blessed Cardinal Bellarmine.

The knowledge and spread of these two outstanding facts deserve promotion, partly, in order to give credit where credit in justice belongs; principally, however, in order to dispel that erroneous notion, which haunts many American minds, that approximately one-fifth of the American population, if loyal to its religious affiliation, cannot be loyally and thoroughly American. So long as this erroneous idea prevails, the highest ideals of Americanism, of national unity and solidarity in thought, feeling and action, can never be attained, and the proud claim, that this is the “land of the noble free,” is, at least in part, but an empty boast. It is in the spirit and interest of a larger and more idealistic Americanism, that this paper is offered.

“If the American Declaration is 'an expression of the American mind,' it is to say the least, something remarkable,” says Allred O'Rahilly, “that it should be such an accurate transcript of the Catholic mind.” Elsewhere he states that a laborious investigation on his part revealed that from the thirteenth to the nineteenth century some 139 Catholic philosophers and theologians uphold the democratic principle that government is based on the consent of the governed. (Only seven of doubtful orthodoxy reject the principle.)


Striking parallels

It will suffice for our purpose to consult, in detail, but two Catholic churchmen who stand out as leading lights for all time. The one is representative of medieval learning and thought, the other stood on the threshold of the medieval and modern world. They are St. Thomas Aquinas of the thirteenth century and the Blessed Cardinal Robert Bellarmine of the sixteenth century (1542-1621). The following comparisons, clause for clause, of the American Declaration of Independence and of excerpts from the political principles of these noted ecclesiastics, evidence striking similarity and identity of political principle.


Equality of man

Declaration of Independence: “All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.”

Bellarmine: “All men are equal, not in wisdom or grace, but in the essence and nature of mankind” (“De Laicis,” c.7) “There is no reason why among equals one should rule rather than another” (ibid.). “Let rulers remember that they preside over men who are of the same nature as they themselves.” (“De Officus Princ.” c. 22). “Political right is immediately from God and necessarily inherent in the nature of man” (“De Laicis,” c. 6, note 1).

St. Thomas: “Nature made all men equal in liberty, though not in their natural perfections” (II Sent., d. xliv, q. 1, a. 3. ad 1).


The function of government

Declaration of Independence: “To secure these rights governments are instituted among men.”

Bellarmine: “It is impossible for men to live together without someone to care for the common good. Men must be governed by someone lest they be willing to perish” (“De Laicis,” c. 6).

St. Thomas: “To ordain anything for the common good belongs either to the whole people, or to someone who is the viceregent of the whole people” (Summa, la llae, q. 90, a. 3).


The source of power

Declaration of Independence: “Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

Bellarmine: “It depends upon the consent of the multitude to constitute over itself a king, consul, or other magistrate. This power is, indeed, from God, but vested in a particular ruler by the counsel and election of men” (“De Laicis, c. 6, notes 4 and 5). “The people themselves immediately and directly hold the political power” (“De Clericis,” c. 7).

St. Thomas: “Therefore the making of a law belongs either to the whole people or to a public personage who has care of the whole people” (Summa, la llae, q. 90, a. 3). “The ruler has power and eminence from the subjects, and, in the event of his despising them, he sometimes loses both his power and position” (“De Erudit. Princ.” Bk. I, c. 6).


The right to change the government

Declaration of Independence: “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new government...Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient reasons.”

Bellarmine: “For legitimate reasons the people can change the government to an aristocracy or a democracy or vice versa” (“De Laicis,” c. 6). “The people never transfers its powers to a king so completely but that it reserves to itself the right of receiving back this power” (Recognitio de Laicis, c. 6).

St Thomas: “If any society of people have a right of choosing a king, then the king so established can be deposed by them without injustice, or his power can be curbed, when by tyranny he abuses his regal power” (“De Rege et Regno,” Bk. I, c. 6).


Democracy not modern thought

Democracy then is not a discovery of modern political thought. Its sources are to be sought in ancient and medieval theories of government. Christianity injected something into the governments of nations that worked for democracy, that emphasized the natural equality and liberty of men. We can think of real Christianity only as democratic, never as aristocratic or autocratic. The Middle Ages were democratic and the Middle Ages were Catholic. Western civilized Europe was Catholic for a round thousand years. The doctrine of St. Thomas, as just quoted, gives eloquent testimony of the democratic political thought representative of that age.

Reputable historians freely attest the democracy of political theory and practice in the Middle Ages. Otto Goerke states: “An ancient and generally entertained opinion regarded the will of the people as the source of temporal power; political authority by Divine grant and absolute power was wholly foreign to the Middle Ages.” (Political Theories of the Middle Ages, pp. 38-39). “Medieval doctrine gave to the monarch a representative character” (ibid. p. 61). Dr. A. J. Carlyle asserts, “The emperor derived his authority, ultimately, no doubt, from God, but immediately from the nation, and this fact [he adds], requires no serious demonstration” (Hist. Med. Pol. Theory in the West, Vol. I, p. 292, and Vol III, p. 153). Carlton J. H. Hayes writes “Constitutional limitation was a medieval tradition” (Pol. And Scc. Hist. Of Med. Europe, Vol. I, p. 264). Lord Acton says, “Looking back over the space of a thousand years, which we call the Middle Ages, we find that representative government was almost universal. Absolute power was deemed more intolerable and more criminal than slavery.”


The divine right of kings

The question might be asked: Why was it at all necessary for men in the eighteenth century to make such emphatic declarations of democratic rights? The answer is: Because the two preceding centuries had fairly destroyed the ancient rights of the people and the medieval democratic principle of government by popular consent. In its place there was elaborated at that time the new theory of the “Divine Right of Kings” which enthroned royal autocracy and absolute monarchy. The sixteenth and seventeenth centuries witnessed the era of political revolution and the great struggle between democratic representative government and monarchic absolutism. At the close of the sixteenth century the existence and preponderance of monarchy was well recognized, but the question to be solved was: Should royal monarchical power, as the “Divine Right” theorists expounded it, become absolute; should it so decisively prevail that the other two elements of recognized government, viz., aristocracy and democracy, be completely discarded from the political world; or, should a combination of the three, which had hitherto existed, continue? Unbiased historical research reveals that Catholic political thinkers — men like Suarez (1548-1617), Mariana (1536-1624), Mollsa (1535-1600), Robert Persons (1546-1610), Toletus (1535-1600), Banez (1528-1604), Gregory of Valencia (1540-1603), (who lived between the years of 1528-1624), stood prominently on the side of democratic principle and the rights of the people. The ancient Church which is often depicted as retarding modern enlightenment, liberty, and democracy, was the very agency which produced the great protagonists of democracy in the period of its greatest danger and saved out of the democracy of the Middle Ages what might be termed the seed-thought for the resowing and growth of democratic principle and practice among the nations of modern times.

The most prominent and powerful defender in the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, of the traditional and medieval democratic principle of popular sovereignty and right, was the illustrious and learned Jesuit Cardinal, the Blessed Robert Bellarmine. “Monarchy will be defended for its own sake,” says Figgis, “when Bellarmine and Suarez have elaborated their theory of popular sovereignty” (Divine Right of Kings, p. 92).


Democracy not a "child of the Reformation"

Modern democracy is often asserted to be the child of the Reformation. Nothing is farther from the truth. Robert Filmer, private theologian of James I of England, in his theory of Divine right, proclaimed, “The king can do no wrong. The most sacred order of kings is of Divine right.” John Neville Figgis, who seems little inclined to give Catholicism undue credit, makes the following assertions. “Luther based royal authority upon Divine right with practically no reservation” (“Gerson to Grotius,” p. 61). “That to the Reformation was in some sort due the prevalence of the notion of the Divine Right of Kings is generally admitted.” (“Divine Right of Kings,” p. 15). “The Reformation had left upon the statute book an emphatic assertion of unfettered sovereignty vested in the king” (ibid. p. 91). “Luther denied any limitation of political power either by Pope or people, nor can it be said that he showed any sympathy for representative institutions; he upheld the inalienable and Divine authority of kings in order to hew down the Upas tree of Rome.” “There had been elaborated at this time a theory of unlimited jurisdiction of the crown and of non-resistance upon any pretense” (Cambridge Modern History, Vol III, p. 739). “Wycliffe would not allow that the king be subject to positive law” (Divine Right of Kings, p. 69). Lord Acton wrote: “Lutheran writers constantly condemn the democratic literature that arose in the second age of the Reformation.”...”Calvin judged that the people were unfit to govern themselves, and declared the popular assembly an abuse” (History of Freedom, p. 42).

A closer study of the Declaration of Independence discloses its dissimilarity with the social-contract or compact theories as explained with slight variations, by Rousseau, Hobbes, Locke, Puffendorf, Althusius, Grotius, Hooker, Kant, or Fichte. The American Declaration, like the political doctrine of Cardinal Bellarmine, declared political power as coming, in the first instance, from God, but as vested in a particular ruler by consent of the multitude or the people as a political body. The social-contract or compact theories sought the source of political power in an assumed social contract or compact by which individual rights contributed or yielded their individual rights to create a public right. Contracts of individuals can create individual rights only, not public or political rights. According to the American Declaration and Cardinal Bellarmine, government implies powers which never belonged to the individual and which, consequently, he could never have conferred upon society. The individual surrenders no authority. Sovereignty receives nothing from him. Government maintains its full dignity, it is of Divine origin, but vested in one or several individuals by popular consent.

The names of Montesquieu, Rousseau, and James Berg are often mentioned as possibly having influenced the spirit and contents of our American Declaration. The “Spirit of Laws” by Montesquieu, though read in America, did not present that theory of government which was sought by the Fathers of our Country. Rousseau's writings were less widely known than Montesquieu's. George Mason, not knowing French, in all probability never read the “Contract social” nor had Rousseau's writings obtained currency in Virginia in 1776. The book of James Berg appeared in 1775, rather too late to have rendered service in May of 1776, even if it had discussed such general principles as are laid down in these two American Declarations.


Didi Jefferson know of Bellarmine?

The second part of this paper would reassert the existence of sufficient reasons to believe that the framers of the Declaration of Independence drew inspiration and political ideals of democracy from the political doctrines of Cardinal Bellarmine, whose writings were well known and discussed on both sides of the Atlantic.

Prof. David S. Schaff, now lecturer of American church history in Union Theological Seminary, New York, does not only question the probability that the framers of our American Declaration might have derived some of their ideas and fundamentals of popular sovereignty from Catholic sources, and from the political writings of Cardinal Bellarmine in particular, but he even goes so far as to misstate completely the Cardinal's political utterances. The New York Times in its issue of December 28, 1926, summarizing the contents of Professor Schaff's address at the twentieth annual conference of the American Society of Church History, quotes him as “assailing the theory which associates the work of the Jesuit Cardinal Bellarmine with Jefferson and through him with the Declaration of Independence.” “The refutation of this legend,” Professor Schaff is quoted as saying, “lay first in the fact that, as far as we know, Jefferson never had access to any book of Bellarmine.” The writer of this paper sent to the Editor of the New York Times the following letter which received no publication, however, as far as could be learned. The letter in substance was the following:

With the hope of contributing a bit of information on this subject, permit the undersigned to state that the Congressional Library still possesses a copy of Patriarcha a book which once stood on the library shelf of Thomas Jefferson. Patriarcha, was written by Robert Filmer, the private theologian of James I of England in defense of the Divine Right of Kings and principally in refutation of the Jesuit Cardinal Bellarmine's political principles of popular sovereignty. If Jefferson ever opened this book, which he possessed, he read the following on the title page: "Partiacha, or the natural power of kings by the learned Sir Robert Filmer London, 1680

The Contents

Chapter I

  1. The tenet of the Natural liberty of the people. New, plausible and dangerous.

  2. The question stated out of Bellarmine and some contradictions of his noted.

  3. Bellarmine's argument answered out of Bellarmine himself.

Chapter II

It is unnatural for the people to govern or choose governors

  1. Aristotle examined abut the freedom of the people.

  2. Suarez disputes against the regality of Adam.

  3. Suarez contradicting Bellarmine.

Chapter III

Positive laws do not infringe the fatherly power of kings, etc....

Four times Bellarmine's name is mentioned in bold print on this contents page of Patriarcha. The first chapter of Patriarcha is again prefaced with its table of contents and Bellarmine's name appears on it three times. Then, if Jefferson read the first lines of the chapter he read this:

“Since the time that school divinity began to flourish there hath been a common opinion maintained, as well by divines, as by diverse other learned men which affirms `Mankind is naturally endowed and born with Freedom, and at liberty to choose what form of Government it please: And that the Power which any one Man hath over others, was at first bestowed according to the discretion of the Multitude.'

“This tenet was first hatched in the schools and hath been fostered by all succeeding papists for good divinity.”

If Jefferson ever read as many as four pages of this book, he read on the fourth page, the following:

To make evident the Grounds of this Question, about the Natural Liberty of Mankind, I will lay down some passages of Cardinal Bellarmine, that may best unfold the State of this controversie. Secular or Civil Power (saith he) is instituted by man; It is in the people, unless they bestow it on a Prince. This Power is immediately in the whole Multitude, as in the subject of it; for this Power is in Divine Law, but the Divine Law hath given this Power to no particular man. If the Positive Law be taken away, there is left no Reason why amongst a Multitude (who are Equal) one rather than another should bear Rule over the Rest. It depends upon the Consent of the Multitude to ordain over themselves a King, Counsel or other Magistrates; and if there be a lawful cause the multitude may change the Kingdom into an Aristocracy or Democracy. Thus far Bellarmine; in which passages are comprised the strength of all that I have read or heard produced for the Natural Liberty of the Subject.

Would not Jefferson, who was seeking a formulation of “the natural liberties of the subject,” be attracted to read and re-read this quotation from Bellarmine which “comprised the strength of all that had ever been produced for the natural liberty of the subject”? And does not the American Declaration reflect strikingly this very passage of Bellarmine quoted by Filmer and lying open before the eyes of Jefferson?


Referred to by Sidney

Jefferson also had in his library a handsome folio of 497 pages of the discourses of Algernon Sidney. Sidney was very popular and much read in the Immediate years preceding 1776. If Jefferson read the opening sentence of Sidney, he read again about Filmer's denunciation of the democratic theories of Bellarmine and the Schoolmen. The opening sentence of Sidney's discourse ran:

Having lately seen a book entitled Patriarcha, written by Sir Robert Filmer, concerning the universal and undistinguished right of all kings, I thought a time of leisure might well be employed in examining his doctrine and the questions arising from it; which seems so far to concern all mankind.

Commenting on the quotation in Patriarcha from Cardinal Bellarmine, Sidney remarked of Filmer:

He absurdly imputes to the School Divines that which was taken up by them as a common notion, written in the heart of every man, denied by none, but such as were degenerated into beasts. The school men could not lay more approved foundations than that man is naturally free; that he cannot justly be deprived of that liberty without cause; that only those governments can be called Just which are established by the consent of nations.

Another treatise on government as widely read but not so popular was John Locke's “Two Treatises on Government.” Like Sidney, Locke wrote in reply to Filmer. Locke himself states on the title page that in his two treatises “the false principles and foundation of Sir Robert Filmer and his followers are detected and overthrown.” Giving his own views Locke wrote, “Men being, as has been said, by nature all free, equal, and independent, no one can be put out of this estate, and subjected to the political power of another without his own consent.” Lord Acton in his “History of Freedom” (p. 82), remarks, “The greater part of the political ideas of Milton, Locke, and Rousseau, may be found in the ponderous Latin of Jesuits.”


Jefferson read works quoting Bellarmine

Whether Jefferson ever read any of the original works of Cardinal Bellarmine would be difficult to assert or to deny. In the Library of Princeton University there was, however, a copy of Cardinal Bellarmine's works in the days of Jefferson. James Madison, a member of the committee which drafted the Virginia Declaration of Rights was a graduate of Princeton in 1771, and certainly had access to Bellarmine's works. This copy, David Schaff states, was destroyed by fire in 1802. It is not so certain, then, that Jefferson and Madison had no possible access to the original writings of Bellarmine, and it is quite possible that in their studies of philosophy, law, and government, they may have investigated the original writings of Bellarmine, of whom they read in Filmer's Patriarcha, in Sidney's Noble Book, and Locke's Two Treatises on Government. Bellarmine's “disputations,” in words of William A. Dunning (“Hist. Of Pol. Theories,” p. 128), “covered systematically all the prominent issues of the time, theological, ecclesiastical, political, and constituted a formidable arsenal of arguments.” Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, the framers and builders of our American Constitution, could not have been ignorant of Sidney, Locke, Filmer, and Bellarmine. “Locke and Sidney,” says Dr. Figgis (trans. Royal Hist. Soc., XI, 1897, 94), “if they did not take their political faith bodily from Suarez or Bellarmine, managed in a remarkable degree to conceal the difference between the two.”


Did professor Schaff read Bellarmine?

Dr. Schaff is further quoted as stating that “the Churchmen's [Bellarmine's] idea of government was quite unlike Jefferson's because the former believed in one chiefly of monarchy” and that “the theory of popular authority and its origin was entirely apart from Cardinal Bellarmine and his writings, it being developed in Geneva and spreading through the Huguenots,” etc.

In his De Romani Pontificis Ecclesiastica Monarchia, Bk. I, c. 1, the Cardinal writes, “Monarchy theoretically and in the abstract, monarchy in the hands of God who combines in Himself all the qualifications of an ideal ruler, is indeed a perfect system of government; in the hands of imperfect man, however, it is exposed to many defects and abuses. A government tempered, therefore, by all three basic forms (i.e., monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy), a mixed government, is, on account of the corruption of human nature more useful than simple monarchy.” Bellarmine in his De Officio Principis, c. 22, points out the dangers and defects of absolute monarchy, and after describing how God refused to grant the Israelites a king (I Kings, viii, 7-19), concludes, “All these incidents clearly indicate that God did not desire his people to have absolute kings as the Gentiles had them, because He foresaw that they would abuse such power.” That Bellarmine was not on the side of monarchy should need no proof. John Neville Figgis (Divine Right of Kings, p. 92) incidentally states, “Monarchy will be defended for its own sake when Bellarmine and Suarez have elaborated their theory of popular sovereignty.”

The theory of popular authority and its origin was entirely apart from Cardinal Bellarmine and his writings,” is a statement that could be made only by one who had never read a line of Cardinal Bellarmine's political writings. If there is anything for which the Cardinal is noted in the field of political philosophy, it is for his theory and defense of popular sovereignty.

In view of the arbitrary and despotic rule established by Calvin in Geneva over the consciences and natural liberties of men, it is difficult to associate the origins of civil and religious liberty and of popular sovereignty with Geneva and to regard it as a cradle of democracy. Lord Acton (“History of Freedom,” p. 42) wrote, “Calvin judged that the people are unfit to govern themselves and declared the popular assembly an abuse.” The principles of democracy antedate by many centuries the Geneva of the sixteenth century. John Neville Figgis in his Political Thought of the Sixteenth Century (Cambridge Modern History, Vol. III, p. 761), wrote, “The Huguenot movement (which proceeded from Geneva) was not democratic.”


Not a mere legend

In the opening paragraph of the full reprint of Professor Schaff's paper entitled “The Bellarmine-Jefferson Legend and the Declaration of Independence,” he assumes that the whole claim, which identifies American principles of government with prior political thought and theory of Catholic political thinkers, had its origin in the article of Gaillard Hunt, printed in the Catholic Historical Review of October, 1917, and he gratuitously calls it a legend. Mr. Hunt's argument does not purport to be a conclusive and only argument; it is rather an additional than a first argument, a strong bit of circumstantial evidence corroborative of the fact and contention that Catholic and medieval principles of democratic government have played themselves very strikingly into the American democracy and are actually there embodied.

In this paper Professor Schaff further states, “If we compare the positions laid down by the Cardinal and the American principles of government, it will be found that they are in essential matters disparate.” The above comparisons, clause for clause, and the many quotations from Cardinal Bellarmine, sufficiently demonstrate the complete erroneousness of such a statement.


The power of the people

Professor Schaff again makes the statement, “The Cardinal took the position that the power which rests originally in the people remains in the people only until the people have chosen or accepted a ruler. Once the ruler is established, the power of the people stops. The ruler is absolute, and is not amenable to the people.” The very opposite is again true. In several places the Cardinal insists that “a people never so completely transfers its power to a king but that it reserves to itself the right to withdraw it.” Populis nunquam itu transferi potestatem suam in regem quin dom sibi in habitu retineal. (Apologia,” c. 13). In his Recognitio De Laicis he adds, Ut in certis casibus etiam sciu recipere possit. “So that in certain cases the people can actually receive back this power.” In several other passages the Cardinal, as quoted, defends the right of a people, for legitimate reasons, to depose a ruler or to change the entire form of government.

Professor Schaff states that the “general position taken by Bellarmine, that it is for the people to choose their form of government, was not original with the Cardinal.” I know of no one who has ever claimed that the theory of popular sovereignty was original with the Cardinal, or even with St. Thomas Aquinas 300 years earlier. The claim made is that he was an ardent advocate and defender of the principle of popular government against the Divine-Right theorists of his time, and that he analyzed, defined, and elucidated most clearly and strikingly that ancient and medieval principle of sovereignty by consent of the people, when it was in its greatest danger.

Another statement of Professor Schaff is, “In passing it is to be noted that Bellarmine says nothing whatever abut Parliaments.” In “De Conciliis et Ecclesia,” c. 3, Bellarmine says, “When a controversy arises in a republic the princes and magistrates of the realm come together and determine what action should be taken. Again in De Romani Pontificis Ecclesiastica Monarchia, c. 3, we read: “Since one man cannot attend to all matters of state, he must distribute these powers. While it is evident that monarchy contains necessary features of government, yet all love that form of government best in which they can participate. Of the utility of such a government, we need scarcely speak.” In the tenth chapter of De Laicis he states: “Laws are generally the combined judgment and experience of several wise men; the king's command is the judgment of one man and it may be rash. Legislators are less exposed to favoritism or bias. A ruler may be influenced by friends, relatives, bribes, or fear.” Bellarmine could not have been ignorant of parliamentary law. Stubbs in his “Constitutional History of England,” Vol. III, p. 388, states: “The rules and forms or parliamentary procedure had before the close of the Middle Ages begun to acquire that permanency and fixedness of character which in the eyes of later generations had risen to the sanctity of law.” (Cardinal Bellarmine was born in 1542 and died in 1621.)

Again he quotes the Cardinal as terming democracy the worst form of government. The Cardinal did make such a statement concerning simple and absolute democracy, which, he says, would lead to mob violence and the worst form of tyranny. Concerning it he quotes Plato as saying, “Who can be happy living under the arbitrary will of the crowd?” The democracy of today is far from being pure and absolute democracy. It embodies much of the monarchic and aristocratic forms of government. The type of government which the Cardinal does advocate is really a mixed government which he calls “the more useful form of government” — an adoption and combination of what is best in each of the three basic forms and a discarding of what is worst. From the monarchic element he would adopt and embody into this mixed form of government enough to insure order, peace, strength, endurance, and efficiency. From the aristocratic type of government he would borrow such features as would supply for many of the natural limitations of a one-man rule. “With the assistance of the best men of the land,” he says, “the ruler may procure wise counsel.” From the element of democracy he insists stringently upon the fundamental political principle, underlying all governments which can in any way be called democratic, the principle of sovereignty by the consent and election of the people. So much of democracy does he fuse into this “more useful” form of government that his political philosophy resents all the fundamental features of modern democratic government.


Summary

In final summary, then, the American Declaration, which was so admirable and dignified an expression of the American mind is at the same time an accurate expression of the Catholic mind, medieval and modern. This statement does not wish to infer that the American Declaration is not an expression as well of the non-Catholic American mind.

In the second place the formulator of the American Declaration of Independence, did actually possess such books on theories of government as were universally known and read, especially by political students, which book prominently mentioned the name of a Catholic, Cardinal Bellarmine, and discussed and quoted his and the Catholic Schoolmen's political theories. “Patriarcha” concerns itself principally with the refutation of Cardinal's political doctrines. If Jefferson never read a line of the Cardinal's original writings, there is every reason to believe that ample opportunity forced itself upon him to read quotations at least, from this very noted Cardinal's political utterances, quotations that were direct, succinct, summarizing, and comprising,” as Filmer wrote, “the strength of all that was ever produced for the natural liberty of the subject.”

With this identity of American and Catholic political principle established, and with plausible evidence of most probable contact of the formulator of our American Declaration with prominent Catholic sources of democratic theory, why should it be taken from the Catholic American citizen proudly to claim identity and uniformity of political thought with that of his fellow-citizen, and why should he not rejoice in the belief that his co-religionist forebears have taken actual part in the laying of that political foundation upon which rests, today, the greatest, happiest and most prosperous nation in the world?



ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Rager, Rev. John C. “Catholic Sources and the Declaration of Independence.” The Catholic Mind XXVIII, no. 13 (July 8, 1930).

This paper was originally read before the American Catholic Historical Association, December 31, 1928.

Reprinted with permission of Our Sunday Visitor.

THE AUTHOR

Rev. John C. Rager, S.T.D.

Copyright © 1930 Our Sunday Visitor


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholic; cerc; cult; mackeralsnappers; noplaceonfr; revisionism
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To: Texas Fossil

The same people who believe America is founded on Roman Catholic principles, must also teach their children the Puritans, Pilgrims, and Anabaptists were really Catholics.

(Puritans based their theology upon Purifying their theology of all RCC ritualism.)

Catholicism was a cultish minority in the American colonies. Those with English leanings might have favored Anglican perspectives, but if we remember our history, a Civil War was fought to separate ourselves from that form of government.


51 posted on 02/02/2012 10:21:33 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; Texas Fossil

Actually, the funny thing is that “liberation theology” is the Catholic name for “the social gospel,” a thoroughly Protestant movement which dominates mainline Protestantism to this day, but was wholly crushed by Pope John Paul II and then-Grand Inquisitor (to use a colorful anachronistic title) Ratzinger.

The social gospel is alien to Catholic lands, but unfortunately, several major Catholic universities sold their birthright for Protestant porridge, when the Protestant and deeply anti-Catholic American higher education establishment set forth standards of accreditation that had an inherently Protestant/Enlightement definition of academic freedom. Eventually, funded by Protestant and masonic sources, a glut of Catholic priests in the 1960s was dispatched to as-yet unevangelized lands which were identified as Catholic due to their Iberian heritage, but long dominated by masonic tyrrants, such as Mexico, Brazil, and Chile. They carried with them their Protestant “social gospel” theological indoctrination.


52 posted on 02/02/2012 10:25:12 PM PST by dangus
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To: Cvengr

How about reading and trying to refute the original post, instead of spouting off anti-Catholic drivel.


53 posted on 02/02/2012 10:26:20 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: RnMomof7
Any attempt to tie Rome to democracy is laughable..

To perpetuate the myth that the U.S.A. is a democracy is dangerous and leads to articles such as this.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2839948/posts

p.s. it has a barf alert.

54 posted on 02/02/2012 10:35:41 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
With this identity of American and Catholic political principle established, and with plausible evidence of most probable contact of the formulator of our American Declaration with prominent Catholic sources of democratic theory, why should it be taken from the Catholic American citizen proudly to claim identity and uniformity of political thought with that of his fellow-citizen, and why should he not rejoice in the belief that his co-religionist forebears have taken actual part in the laying of that political foundation upon which rests, today, the greatest, happiest and most prosperous nation in the world?

"The right of deposing kings is inherent in the supreme sovereignty which the popes, as vice-regents of Christ, exercise over all Christian nations." (Cardinal Henry Manning, 1892, Archbishop of Westminster. The Jesuits in History, Hector MacPherson, 1900, pg. 115)

"And just as the end at which the Church aims is by far the noblest of ends, so is its authority the most exalted of all authority, nor can it be looked upon as inferior to the civil power, or in any manner dependent upon it." (Pope Leo XIII in Encyclical Letters, pg 112)

"Such, too, is the purpose of the seizing of the temporal power, conferred many centuries ago by Divine Providence on the Bishop of Rome , that he might without let or hindrance use the authority conferred by Christ for the eternal welfare of the nations." (Pope Leo XIII, Evils Affecting Modern Society Encyclical, pg. 11)

"The Rome of the middle ages claimed universal monarchy. The modern Church of Rome has abandoned nothing, retracted nothing." (The Present Crisis of the Holy See, H. E. Manning, D.D., 1861, pg. 75)

"The Pope by Divine right, hath spiritual and temporal power as supreme King of the world. The Pope of Rome, as head of the Papal government, claims absolute sovereignty and supremacy over all the governments of the Earth. So that, he can impose taxes on all Christians and destroy towns and cities for the preservation of Christianity." (Thomas Aquinas, Romanism as a World Power, Luther Kauffman, 1922, pg. 30)

"On account of the excellence of his supreme dignity, he is called Bishop of Bishops, Ordinary of Ordinaries, Universal Bishop of the Church, Bishop or Diocesan of the whole world, Divine Monarch, Supreme Emperor and King of Kings." (Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, 1763)

55 posted on 02/02/2012 10:55:13 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Thanks for the Post.

I'll leave to you, and those less enlightened on this post, Pope John Paul II's reflection on the founding principles of the U.S.A. He had a deeper understanding than many Americans, and apparently many posters here at FR.

It gives me great pleasure to welcome you to the Vatican for presentation of the Letters of Credence by which you are appointed Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the United States of America to the Holy See. I am grateful for the greetings which you convey from President Clinton, and I reciprocate with good wishes to him and the American people.

You represent a nation that plays a crucial role in world events today. The United States carries a weighty and far-reaching responsibility, not only for the well-being of its own people, but for the development and destiny of peoples throughout the world. With a deep sense of participation in the joys and hopes, the sorrows, anxieties, and aspirations of the entire human family, the Holy See is a willing partner in every effort to build a world of genuine peace and justice for all. I am certain that, following upon the good work of your predecessors, you will apply your many personal talents and your long experience of public life to strengthening understanding and cooperation between us.

The Founding Fathers of the United States asserted their claim to freedom and independence on the basis of certain "self-evident" truths about the human person: truths which could be discerned in human nature, built into it by "nature’s God." Thus they meant to bring into being, not just an independent territory, but a great experiment in what George Washington called "ordered liberty": an experiment in which men and women would enjoy equality of rights and opportunities in the pursuit of happiness and in service to the common good. Reading the founding documents of the United States, one has to be impressed by the concept of freedom they enshrine: a freedom designed to enable people to fulfill their duties and responsibilities toward the family and toward the common good of the community. Their authors clearly understood that there could be no true freedom without moral responsibility and accountability, and no happiness without respect and support for the natural units or groupings through which people exist, develop, and seek the higher purposes of life in concert with others.

The American democratic experiment has been successful in many ways. Millions of people around the world look to the United States as a model in their search for freedom, dignity, and prosperity. But the continuing success of American democracy depends on the degree to which each new generation, native-born and immigrant, makes its own the moral truths on which the Founding Fathers staked the future of your Republic. Their commitment to build a free society with liberty and justice for all must be constantly renewed if the United States is to fulfill the destiny to which the Founders pledged their "lives . . . fortunes . . . and sacred honor."

I am happy to take note of your words confirming the importance that your government attaches, in its relations with countries around the world, to the promotion of human rights and particularly to the fundamental human right of religious freedom, which is the guarantee of every other human right. Respect for religious conviction played no small part in the birth and early development of the United States. Thus John Dickinson, Chairman of the Committee for the Declaration of Independence, said in 1776: "Our liberties do not come from charters; for these are only the declaration of preexisting rights. They do not depend on parchments or seals; but come from the King of Kings and the Lord of all the earth." Indeed it may be asked whether the American democratic experiment would have been possible, or how well it will succeed in the future, without a deeply rooted vision of divine providence over the individual and over the fate of nations.

As the year 2000 draws near and Christians prepare to celebrate the bi-millennium of the birth of Christ, I have appealed for a serious examination of conscience regarding the shadows that darken our times. Nations and states too can make this a time of reflection on the spiritual and moral conditions of their success in promoting the integral good of their people. It would truly be a sad thing if the religious and moral convictions upon which the American experiment was founded could now somehow be considered a danger to free society, such that those who would bring these convictions to bear upon your nation’s public life would be denied a voice in debating and resolving issues of public policy. The original separation of church and state in the United States was certainly not an effort to ban all religious conviction from the public sphere, a kind of banishment of God from civil society. Indeed, the vast majority of Americans, regardless of their religious persuasion, are convinced that religious conviction and religiously informed moral argument have a vital role in public life.

No expression of today’s commitment to liberty and justice for all can be more basic than the protection afforded to those in society who are most vulnerable. The United States of America was founded on the conviction that an inalienable right to life was a self-evident moral truth, fidelity to which was a primary criterion of social justice. The moral history of your country is the story of your people’s efforts to widen the circle of inclusion in society, so that all Americans might enjoy the protection of law, participate in the responsibilities of citizenship, and have the opportunity to make a contribution to the common good. Whenever a certain category of people—the unborn or the sick and old—are excluded from that protection, a deadly anarchy subverts the original understanding of justice. The credibility of the United States will depend more and more on its promotion of a genuine culture of life, and on a renewed commitment to building a world in which the weakest and most vulnerable are welcomed and protected.

As they have done throughout your country’s history, the Catholic people in the United States will continue to make an important contribution to the development of American culture and society. The recently completed Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for America has highlighted the range and variety of activity which Catholics, out of commitment to Christ, undertake for the betterment of society. May this transforming and elevating work continue to flourish for the good of individuals, the strengthening of families, and the benefit of the American people as a whole.

Your Excellency, these are some of the thoughts prompted by your presence here as your country’s diplomatic representative. These reflections evoke a prayer: that your country will experience a new birth of freedom, freedom grounded in truth and ordered to goodness. Thus will the American people be able to harness their boundless spiritual energy in service of the genuine good of all humanity. Be assured that the various Offices of the Holy See will be ready to assist you in the fulfillment of your mission. Upon you and upon the people of the United States of America I cordially invoke abundant divine blessings.

56 posted on 02/02/2012 10:58:54 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: vladimir998; Clemenza
Jesus is a foreign clerical monarch. And Jesus doesn’t care about the constitution of any earthly nation.

And when Jesus returns to earth to set up his millennial kingdom, I will happily rejoice to bow my knee to his sovereignty. Just not the chaps who think they stand in his stead.

57 posted on 02/02/2012 11:01:45 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: dangus

Really? I find it fascinating that anyone who dares disagree with the author’s opinionated premise that “Democracy is not a child of the Reformation” is labeled with promoting hatred, derision, and overt bigotry; hate-mongering, frothing, slobbering, knee-jerk hatred, not having a single rational thought represented and anti-Catholics. A little bit of over reaction there???


58 posted on 02/02/2012 11:18:31 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums

I have nothing against someone disagreeing with the assertion that “Democracy is not a child of the Reformation.” I noted only that the counter-arguments failed to address the argument at all, and instead carried on with hatred, derision, and overt bigotry. If you care to make a better argument, feel free to. I note you’ve tried to at least argue by counter-example, but that your source for what Catholics have said on the matter includes a passage taken from a man arguing that Catholics should have no civil liberties, and shouldn’t be allowed to vote.


59 posted on 02/02/2012 11:35:56 PM PST by dangus
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To: Mariner

The Magna Carta was written by Catholics, to Catholics, for Catholics. No other Christian faiths existed at the time of the Magna Carta, so I fail to see your point.


60 posted on 02/02/2012 11:43:08 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: dangus

“there’s not a single rational thought represented by these anti-Catholics”. Here’s a thought. Those anti’s ought be thankful they weren’t around in 1599, a time when Cardinal Bellarmine, a member of the Roman Inquisition could get his hands on them.


61 posted on 02/02/2012 11:46:49 PM PST by anglian
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To: boatbums

Jesus already set up His millennial kingdom, the New Jerusalem, the Church.

Which is why you folks get so much wrong. Your basic premises are flawed.


62 posted on 02/02/2012 11:47:39 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Clemenza
Any fifth columnist who puts loyalty to a foreign clerical monarch over our Constitution has no business living here

Are you assuming the principles of the Catholic Church contradict the American principles outlined in the Declaration of Independence? I do not believe you could demonstrate a contradiction. Nor do I think you can demonstrate the The Roman Catholic Church opposed Enlightenment Republicanism.

63 posted on 02/03/2012 12:59:39 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Clemenza; Campion; hinckley buzzard
clemenza: Any fifth columnist who puts loyalty to a foreign clerical monarch over our Constitution has no business living here

wait a minute -- are you saying Catholics are not welcome in the USA?

64 posted on 02/03/2012 1:55:27 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Texas Fossil
"The Loyalists were often Catholics."

What are you talking about? Catholics having a vested interest with Protestant England -- the same England that persecuted them and denied them rights?


  1. There were no Baptists among the Founding Fathers --> there were
    1. Church of England/Episcopalian: 28
    2. Presbyterian: 8
    3. Congregationalists: 8
    4. Lutherans: 2
    5. Dutch Reformed: 2
    6. Methodists: 2
    7. Catholics: 3 (C. Caroll, D. Caroll & Fitzsimons)
    8. Deists: 7 (including Thomas Jefferson
    So perhaps since there were no Baptists, they shouldn't be considered (according to your statement) Americans?

  2. Evidently you never heard that Maryland was founded for providing religious toleration of England's persecuted Roman Catholics?

  3. Evidently you never knew that John Caroll had initially been a priest before devoting himself to the Revolution?

  4. Evidently you never heard of Fr. Pierre Gibault who pledged the support of the region of S-W Indiana to the USA (to Col. George Rogers Clark)?

  5. Evidently you never heard of the accomplishments of John Barry, a native Irishman who captained a number of ships during the war. Barry was the first to capture a British war vessel on the high seas; he also was wounded in a sea batter yet captured two British ships and fought the last battle on the seas of the Revolutionary war. He was George Washington's choice for commander of the US navy -- he was issued Commission Number 1 by Washintong and was not only the first American commissioned naval officer but also it's first flag officer

  6. Evidently you've never heard of the Marquis de Lafayette, a Catholic or the Polish captain Tadeusz Kosciuszko and both were key in the Revolutionary War?
  7. Evidently you never heard of Casimir Pułaski, a Pole who led Washington's cavalry and died in the battle for Savannah

  8. Evidently you never heard of the Catholic Philadelphia merchant Stephen Moylan who became Quatermaster General of the Continental Army?

  9. John Caroll says this about Catholic participation in the Revolutionary war (remember the country was only 1.6% Catholic):"Their blood flowed as freely, in proportion to their numbers, to cement the fabric of independence as that of their fellow citizens. They concurred with perhaps greater unanimity than any other body of men in recommending and promoting from whose influence America anticipates all the blessings of justice, peace, plenty, good orders, and civil and religious liberty"

The religious freedom fought for was also religious freedom for Catholics from Protestant England, hence the Catholic volunteers and support from Catholic Irishmen, Frenchmen and Poles.

65 posted on 02/03/2012 2:03:55 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: RnMomof7; Dr. Brian Kopp

In case you didn’t know, Rnmomof6, we in the US have a republic — we’re not the messy democracy, rule of the mob....like in the PCUSA...


66 posted on 02/03/2012 2:43:27 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: anglian

Bellarmine defended Galileo, even though Galileo’s cosmology was vastly inferior to diCusa, and offered nothing but failure beyond Capernicus.

Galileo was positively mule-headed; he won through Bellarmine the concession that he could present his ideas as theories, rather than as proven, and he went and created an Aristotelean straw man, representing the pope, named, “Simpleton” (Simplicio, in Latin), a prick move that set science back four centuries because it killed off diCusa’s cosmology in the cross-fire. Ironically, Galileo’s observations could have confirmed diCusa, but Galileo didn’t know of diCusa’s suppositions, and he ignored any and all data that didn’t fit his own hunches, making him out a scientific hypocrite.

But where Bellarmine defended Galileo’s freedom of thought, and STILL got Bellarmine a cozy post-trial life, Calvin issued a fatwah against Galileo that would have cost Galileo his life if he ever entered Switzerland.


67 posted on 02/03/2012 3:08:23 AM PST by dangus
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To: Cronos; Texas Fossil

You want to blow Texas Fossil’s mind and let him know who George Washington summoned to his death bed to administer last rites?

John Carroll, brother of Charles Carroll, and founder of Georgetown University, and future first United States Catholic bishop and Archbishop of Baltimore.

We’re not talking nominal Catholics!


68 posted on 02/03/2012 3:13:54 AM PST by dangus
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To: vladimir998
Although some were slave owners, slavery itself was struck out of the Declaration of Independence so that the southern states would vote for secession from King George. Jefferson even wrote that slavery was a sin that future generations would pay for. My bishop, a USCCB member, actively campaigned for obama when he composed his how to vote flier and included them in every October 2008 bulletin. To my knowledge, the Founders did not create slavery is awesome pamphlets and then distribute them in their churches.
69 posted on 02/03/2012 3:24:51 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: Salvation
I am fully aware of the latest news. I too listened to the letter that was read at mass Sunday and that is what these links refer to. However, the USCCB chose to lie with dogs when they chose to support obama and now they are waking up with fleas.
70 posted on 02/03/2012 3:28:07 AM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: anglian; dangus

Bellarmine and other inquisitors only had the authority to judge Catholics. The antis wouldn’t be in that list. They’d have to answer to Puritans or Calvinists or Anglicans or Lutheran who meted out their own versions of the inquisitions in their time.


71 posted on 02/03/2012 3:28:39 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Mariner

You wrote:

“None were Catholic or members of the The Church of England (Anglican).”

Manhy Americans are ignorant of their own history so it doesn’t surprise me you would make that common mistake. Now, look up Charles Carroll (who I believe was the longest living survivor of the Declaration of Independence).
Also, how many Catholics would you expect in English colonies that often persecuted them?


72 posted on 02/03/2012 4:33:28 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Cronos

Menocchio, also known as Domenico Scandella, was a Friulian miller born in 1532 in the village of Montereale, twenty-five kilometers north of Pordenone. His philosophical teachings earned him the title of a heresiarch during the Inquisition and he was eventually burned at the stake in 1599, at the age of 67, on orders of Pope Clement VIII.

He was married and had eleven children.
Ginzburg’s book details the patient mechanism of the Inquisition in Counter Reformation Italy as it sought to eradicate suspected heresy and heretical groups rather in the same way that Stalin suspected counter-revolution everywhere.
The locals knew the sick sixty-seven-year-old well – he had long been a character in the local villages – being a miller by trade, a former mayor of nearby Montereale and an administrator of the parish church there. His name was Domenico Scandella but he was better known as Menocchio. With Giordano Bruno in far-off Rome, the virtually unknown and ill-educated old man shared the dangerous honour of being accused of heresy and of being burned alive. http://www.readysteadybook.com/BookReview.aspx?isbn=0801843871


73 posted on 02/03/2012 4:40:28 AM PST by anglian
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To: goodwithagun

You wrote:

“To my knowledge, the Founders did not create slavery is awesome pamphlets and then distribute them in their churches.”

No, some of them just bought, sold, raped, and beat those slaves instead. I’ll take a misguided, misinformed pamphleteer over a slaver any day.


74 posted on 02/03/2012 4:43:24 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Clemenza
Any fifth columnist who puts loyalty to a foreign clerical monarch over our Constitution has no business living here. That isn't "anti-Catholicism" that is the truth.

Wow. So should Zionists move away too? How do you propose to enforce this?

75 posted on 02/03/2012 4:52:54 AM PST by Hacksaw
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To: RnMomof7
Any attempt to tie Rome to democracy is laughable..

More or less laughable that the people who claim that John Calvin founded the USA?

76 posted on 02/03/2012 4:54:17 AM PST by Hacksaw
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To: Cronos

Well, not exactly...

It’s true that the Inquisitors only went after people who were corrupting the church. You could believe and teach what you wanted to, so long as you didn’t claim that what you were teaching was the teaching the Catholic faith. No false advertising!

So Muslims and Jews were absolutely free to teach Islam and Judaism, under the law. The only ones who fell under the Inquisition were the conversos, who claimed to have converted to Catholicism, but sometimes only did so insincerely. And this is something which will never be clear from history: Islam teaches that taqqiyah, lying to assume power in an “infidel” state, is morally acceptable. So were the Muslims in Spain who claimed to be Christians doing it more out of fear of Christian vigilantes, or to promote Islamic beliefs within a Catholic state through sinister means?

The problem for Protestants is that they were not recognized as a separate church from the Catholics, and did, in fact, fall under the authority of the Inquisition.

On the other hand, the very first thing the proto-Calvinists (shall I call them Zwingliists?) did when they established a canon in Switzerland was prohibit the Catholic mass, and launch immediate wars against their neighboring Catholic canons. And Luther claimed to be a reforming Catholic, until long after he had gotten the various lords of Germany to side with the Muslims over Catholics, and suppress non-Lutherans in their fiefdoms. So I’m not shedding tears for them.


77 posted on 02/03/2012 6:23:26 AM PST by dangus
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To: Mariner
Mariner: None were Catholic or members of the The Church of England (Anglican).

sorry, but your statement is very, very wrong, from wikipedia (but you can check elsewhere):

Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons).

Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.


78 posted on 02/03/2012 7:01:50 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: dangus; RnMomof7

what’s incredible is that they do not even bother to read. That’s true about their reading of scripture, history etc. etc.


79 posted on 02/03/2012 7:03:12 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: anglian

did you even read what I said — these guys were not Catholics, hence out of the jurisdiction. the Puritans had their own version of the inquisition, as did the Calvinists in Geneva, Lutherans, Anglicans etc.


80 posted on 02/03/2012 7:06:06 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: dangus; Texas Fossil
You want to blow Texas Fossil’s mind and let him know who George Washington summoned to his death bed to administer last rites?
John Carroll, brother of Charles Carroll, and founder of Georgetown University, and future first United States Catholic bishop and Archbishop of Baltimore.
We’re not talking nominal Catholics!

TexasFossil -- do you know your history?

81 posted on 02/03/2012 7:21:32 AM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Cronos

Yes, and let’s keep in mind that three out of fifty-five may not seem like much, but it is HIGHER than the Catholic portion of the colonial population (~4%).


82 posted on 02/03/2012 8:02:01 AM PST by dangus
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To: Cronos

Oops! Turns out only 1.2%, not 4% of the colonists were Catholic. So that three signers were Catholic is quite something.

(Wikipedia, citing Middleton, 225. Also see Michael Lee Lanning, The American Revolution 100 (Napierville:Ill.: Sourcebook,Inc.), 193.)


83 posted on 02/03/2012 8:04:16 AM PST by dangus
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To: Cronos; Texas Fossil

I’d also consider it of quite significance that John Carroll was promptly made the Archbishop of Baltimore, despite being from a religious order, and a suppressed on at that! (Normally, diocesan priests are chosen to head dioceses; religious order priests are chosen to head only religious ordinariates, although there are many exceptions, like the Franciscan Cardinal O’Malley of Boston.) That the other priests in America nearly unanimously chose him as their leader, and had their selection approved by the Vatican, and that the Vatican immediately established an archdiocese in the newly formed states can only be read as an enthusiastic approval of Carroll’s actions in the states.

And not to little cost! Catholic France’s support of the American Revolution (admittedly, not stemming from the French king’s fondness for Catholicism) cost dearly; the largest Catholic kingdom at that time was plunged into a horrifying Reign of Terror by the anti-clerical French Revolution.


84 posted on 02/03/2012 8:10:39 AM PST by dangus
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To: Cronos
For people open to facts, here is a brief article which sums up some contributions by Catholics in the founding of this country.

http://www.catholichistory.net/Spotlights/SpotlightFounding.htm

Considering that there was a low population of Catholics in the colonies, Catholics did a pretty good job in helping the American cause.

85 posted on 02/03/2012 10:58:47 AM PST by WPaCon
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To: RnMomof7; metmom; the_conscience; Lee N. Field; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; Alex Murphy; ...
Lol. Four hundred years of history is wrong and Rome has suddenly determined it invented television, fruit salad and email.

Rome lies like the Russians.

Rome is all about a top-down authoritarian hierarchy with an "infallible" king (pope) as its leader who possesses "divine" rights.

Who does the Vatican think it's fooling? Rome's idiotic boasts get more outlandish every day.

"There is nothing holier, or better, or safer, than to content ourselves with the authority of Christ alone." -- Calvin, Institutes IV:xv.19

86 posted on 02/03/2012 2:29:55 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dutchboy88; boatbums; bkaycee

Meant to ping you guys.


87 posted on 02/03/2012 3:05:02 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; metmom; the_conscience; Lee N. Field; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; ...

It may have been during your sabbatical, but just recently the Papist monarchists were popping up all around FR, extolling the virtues of have us under an earthly king.

This is nothing more than Papist PR, spinning the Rome as an angel of light.


88 posted on 02/03/2012 3:06:42 PM PST by Gamecock (I am so thankful for [the] active obedience of Christ. No hope without it. JGM)
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To: Cronos

Fiction


89 posted on 02/03/2012 3:16:59 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Mariner
They were 3 Roman Catholic founders if you count the religion of those who signed the DOI, Articles of Confederation, and the US Constitution together.

Also, I hate to break the news, but the majority of the founders were affiliated with the Church of England. Most colonists were of the English persecution and many did not come to the colonies to avoid religious persecution (Hence, their continued allegiance to the dogma of the Church of England).

90 posted on 02/03/2012 3:25:22 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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To: rollo tomasi
Sorry “English persecution” = English persuasion
91 posted on 02/03/2012 3:27:16 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; dangus; boatbums; Dr. Eckleburg
"“There is no reason why among equals one should rule rather than another” (ibid.)."

Thus the "pope" is about to step down? We have been awaiting his wake-up call.

92 posted on 02/03/2012 3:39:05 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

INDEED.

Hugs and prayers.


93 posted on 02/03/2012 4:21:57 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Dear brother,

This is an interesting article, but the reality is the DOI is not complete Catholic teaching,there are only parts that are and the un catholic parts leads to pluralistic societies which is far from Catholic/Orthodox teaching.

The truth of the matter is that it’s impossible to maintain any kind of Christian identity and separate it from Catholicism.Like many heretics like Nestorius and others the FF’s of the US try and reconcile heretical teaching with Christianity. Thus, we see things like the US Constitution not much different from many other heretical ideas that fail in there completion because they only are based in half truths


94 posted on 02/03/2012 6:33:17 PM PST by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: RnMomof7; Dr. Brian Kopp; metmom; boatbums; caww; smvoice; presently no screen name; Lera; Quix; ...


Re "an accurate expression of the Catholic mind, medieval and modern." While some RCs and writings influenced the DOI, as Judea-Christian principles ethics do, and if they reflected that then there is soundness, but what it left out is that what the founders sought to construct is in contrasts the some of the ethos of Rome during times when it wielded its unScriptural sword of men against theological adversaries. And which was wrong when Protestants did so as well, but there was much they had and have to unlearn if they will learn the way of the Master.

Another Traditional Roman Catholic (which Dr. Kopp apparently is) asserts regarding religious freedom, “No man should be forced to become Catholic, but all men should be forcibly restrained from attacking the Faith in any fashion.“ “...Cannibals should not be allowed on street corners. Ask yourself this: If it is OK to permit a man to murder his mother, what do I do if that man is my brother? Honor his "right" to kill Mom, or defend to the death my Mom?” — TWENTY-FIVE EXPLICIT ERRORS OF VATICAN COUNCIL II, Michael Malone http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/vatican2/vatican2.htm

The crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection.(Pope Innocent III, “Epistle to the Hierarchy of France,” July 15, 1205)

It would be licit, according to custom, to hold the Jews in perpetual servitude because of their crime. (St. Thomas Aquinas, “De Regimine Judaeorum”)

It is insanity to believe that liberty of conscience and liberty of worship are the inalienable rights of every citizen. From this stinking fountain of Indifferentism flows the erroneous and absurd opinion, or rather derangement, that liberty of conscience must be asserted and vindicated for everyone. This most pestilential error opens the door to the complete and immoderate liberty of opinions which works such widespread harm both in Church and State. (Pope Gregory XVI, “Mirari Vos,” August 15,1832)

▀ That every man is free to embrace and to profess that religion which he, led by the light of reason, thinks to be the true religion is hereby CONDEMNED as ERROR. (Ven. Pope Pius IX, “Syllabus of Modern Errors,”December 8, 1864)

Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors) December 8, 1864:

Error condemned: In this age of ours, it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion be the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other cults whatsoever. In certain regions of Catholic name, it has been praiseworthily sanctioned by law that men immigrating there be allowed to have public exercises of any form of worship of their own.

▀ [It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship.” Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78.

▀ Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): “[It is error to believe that] The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.” Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus Issued in 1864, Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, #55. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

▀ Pope Pius X VEHEMENTER NOS: That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error....

Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State...

▀ When the law, by the suppression of the Budget of Public Worship, exonerates the State from the obligation of providing for the expenses of worship, it violates an engagement contracted in a diplomatic convention, and at the same time commits a great injustice. - Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10law.htm

▀ Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302: Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302 http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

▀ Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect." Section V, Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

▀ The Roman Pontiff "does not only have the office of inspection and direction," but enjoys "full and supreme power of jurisdiction, not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and governance of the Church dispersed throughout the world" (DS 3064).

▀ Boniface VIII: “It is I who am Caesar; the Sovereign Pontiff is the only King of the Romans”, as he rode thru the city, carrying sword, globe and sceptre. (”Rome and its story”, p. 241, by Welbore St. Clair Baddeley, Lina Duff Gordon)

▀ The Church has the right, as a perfect and independent society provided with all the means for attaining its end, to ...admonish or warn its members, ecclesiastical or lay, who have not conformed to its laws and also, if needful to punish them by physical means, that is, coercive jurisdiction. — Catholic Encyclopedia Jurisdiction

▀ In this regard, I reiterate that the prohibition against torture ‘cannot be contravened under any circumstances’”. — Pope Benedict XVI, in a speech of 6 September 2007; Torture and corporal punishment as a problem in Catholic Theology, September 2005

▀ That it is against the will of the Spirit to burn heretics at the stake is condemned as false. (Pope Leo X, “Exsurge Domino,” 1520

▀ Innocent’s Bull [Ad Extirpanda] prescribes that captured heretics, being “murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb.” — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.) http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt119.html

▀ Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215:

We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element. Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues. But those who are only suspected, due consideration being given to the nature of the suspicion and the character of the person, unless they prove their innocence by a proper defense, let them be anathematized and avoided by all 1-intil they have made suitable satisfaction; but if they have been under excommunication for one year, then let them be condemned as heretics.

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.

The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp)

▀ Those who have been detected, even by slight proof, to have deviated from the doctrine of the Catholic religion ought to fall under the classification of heretic and under the sentences operating against heretics. (Pope Innocent IV, “Registers of Innocent IV,” Berger, Paris:1881)

Pope Innocent IV., in his instruction for the guidance of the Inquisition in Tuscany and Lombardy, ordered the civil magistrates to extort from all heretics by torture a confession of their own guilt and a betrayal of all their accomplices (1252).371371 In the bull Ad extirpanda http://userwww.sfsu.edu/%7Edraker/history/Ad_Extirpanda.html

The requirement that torture only be used once was effectively meaningless in practice as it was interpreted as authorizing torture with each new piece of evidence that was produced and by considering most practices to be a continuation (rather than repetition) of the torture session (non ad modum iterationis sed continuationis).[1]

The bull conceded to the State a portion of the property to be confiscated from convicted heretics.[3] The State in return assumed the burden of carrying out the penalty. The relevant portion of the bull read: "When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podestà or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them."[4]:




95 posted on 02/03/2012 10:22:38 PM PST by daniel1212 (Trust in the Lord Jesus to save you as a contrite damned+morally destitute sinner + be forgiven+live)
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Jesus already set up His millennial kingdom, the New Jerusalem, the Church. Which is why you folks get so much wrong. Your basic premises are flawed.

Right....that's why there are no bars on the cages of all the wild animals at our zoos now. Let me know when The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. (Isaiah 11:6-7)

96 posted on 02/03/2012 10:36:56 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

yes, content in your posts are fiction, we know.


97 posted on 02/03/2012 11:47:07 PM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: dangus; Texas Fossil; Mariner
dangus: Turns out only 1.2%, not 4% of the colonists were Catholic. So that three signers were Catholic is quite something.

yes, 3 out of 55 is 5.5% --> so the Catholics were present way beyond their numbers.

Even Washington pointed out that CAtholics fought on the American side way in excess of their proportional population.

Mariner -- your statement that none of the founders were Catholic belies an incredible lack of knowledge of American history -- I would suggest more reading

As I posted above

  1. There were no Baptists among the Founding Fathers --> there were
    1. Church of England/Episcopalian: 28
    2. Presbyterian: 8
    3. Congregationalists: 8
    4. Lutherans: 2
    5. Dutch Reformed: 2
    6. Methodists: 2
    7. Catholics: 3 (C. Caroll, D. Caroll & Fitzsimons)
    8. Deists: 7 (including Thomas Jefferson
    So perhaps since there were no Baptists, they shouldn't be considered (according to your statement) Americans?

  2. Evidently you never heard that Maryland was founded for providing religious toleration of England's persecuted Roman Catholics?

  3. Evidently you never knew that John Caroll had initially been a priest before devoting himself to the Revolution?

  4. Evidently you never heard of Fr. Pierre Gibault who pledged the support of the region of S-W Indiana to the USA (to Col. George Rogers Clark)?

  5. Evidently you never heard of the accomplishments of John Barry, a native Irishman who captained a number of ships during the war. Barry was the first to capture a British war vessel on the high seas; he also was wounded in a sea batter yet captured two British ships and fought the last battle on the seas of the Revolutionary war. He was George Washington's choice for commander of the US navy -- he was issued Commission Number 1 by Washintong and was not only the first American commissioned naval officer but also it's first flag officer

  6. Evidently you've never heard of the Marquis de Lafayette, a Catholic or the Polish captain Tadeusz Kosciuszko and both were key in the Revolutionary War?
  7. Evidently you never heard of Casimir Pułaski, a Pole who led Washington's cavalry and died in the battle for Savannah

  8. Evidently you never heard of the Catholic Philadelphia merchant Stephen Moylan who became Quatermaster General of the Continental Army?

  9. John Caroll says this about Catholic participation in the Revolutionary war (remember the country was only 1.6% Catholic):"Their blood flowed as freely, in proportion to their numbers, to cement the fabric of independence as that of their fellow citizens. They concurred with perhaps greater unanimity than any other body of men in recommending and promoting from whose influence America anticipates all the blessings of justice, peace, plenty, good orders, and civil and religious liberty"

The religious freedom fought for was also religious freedom for Catholics from Protestant England, hence the Catholic volunteers and support from Catholic Irishmen, Frenchmen and Poles.

98 posted on 02/03/2012 11:58:32 PM PST by Cronos (Party like it's 12 20, 2012)
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To: Cvengr
In several places the Cardinal insists that “a people never so completely transfers its power to a king but that it reserves to itself the right to withdraw it.”

It appears Catholic doctrine insists that because the majority of Christian believers withdraw their power from the Pope, the Pope hardly has the authority to represent the Church before God.

99 posted on 02/04/2012 1:00:41 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; RnMomof7; metmom; the_conscience; Lee N. Field; Gamecock; Forest Keeper; wmfights; ..
Rome has suddenly determined it invented television, fruit salad and email.

LOL!! Whatever way the wind is blowing you'll find the Catholics.

Sir Thomas Aquinas, Sir Thomas More, and many of the Catholics who embraced the Renaissance were nothing less than the forefathers of communism and marxism. (Has anyone read More's, Utopia?) These are the men Rome has dubbed as "saints" and the greatest minds of the Church. When freedom from the Church was sprending throughout Europe, it was men like these that tried to stop it.

Who is the patron saint of email? Why, Sir Francis of a CCs.

100 posted on 02/04/2012 2:35:14 AM PST by HarleyD
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