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Skip to comments.Saul And The Charismatics...
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didnt He promise us that
it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didnt begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by its leaders and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he felt was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldnt go by the Word, but by feelings. God called that rebellion and even witchcraft,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all little gods, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the deliverance movement which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive shepherding movement?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into spiritual drunkenness and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul
At the end of Sauls life, he went into the occult. God wasnt speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb, to get an impartation of her anointing!
One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimees tomb in California. This Thursday Im on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlmans tomb. Its close by Aimees in Forest Lawn Cemetery. Ive been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where shes buried is closed, they built walls around it. You cant get in without a key and Im one of the very few people who can get in. But Ill never forget when I saw Aimees tomb. Its incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. Asas incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, II, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimees tomb. I was shaking all over. Gods power came all over me. I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimees body. I know this may be shocking to you. And Im going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. Theyre gonna come with me. Youyouyou gonna feel the anointing at Aimees tomb. Its incredible. And Kathryns. Its amazing. Ive heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by Gods power. You say, What a crazy thing. Brother, theres things well never understand. Are you all hearing me?11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinns followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult Gods instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to honor the Generals of revival, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
Honoring them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a generals library for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally soaking the anointing by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students Soaking Anointing Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but the delusion, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
(yeah...tit for tat!
Do thus to My people and ye shall have no rain, but my people will have rain...Do such to my people and you shall have darkness upon your people,only My people shall have light as in the day when the Land of Goshen had light while darkness covered the face of Egypt.)
God offered the world the grace of Mount Zion, but instead the world has chosen the gloom of Mount Sinai and the testimony of Moses spoken against us! I am tearfully sad it has been coming to this. You think it was just on the outskirts of Jerusalem that Christ pined for his people...Nay! He would have taken this whole world into his arms, but this world just would not have it!
Well and sadly put.
couldn’t have said it better myself!
17 And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
Paul was OBVIOUSLY
talking about the
feminine SIDE of male prophets.
OBVIOUSLY God would not be STUPID enough to let WOMEN
Paul was OBVIOUSLY
talking about the
women NOT prophecying IN CHURCH but instead prophecying on the back stoop to the dogs and goats.
I don't know about the unknown truths part of the question. I don't believe that there are new doctrines being revealed or any thing like that.
I believe that the Holy Ghost can raise your alertness to be aware of situations where your God-guided judgment must be brought into play.
I don't disagree with this but I don't believe the spirit is limited to 'raising alertness' but can communicate in a variety of ways such as through the Word or dreams and visions. Ultimately it is the Bible that we must test everything against and we should keep our focus on Jesus and on His Word.
Thank you for sharing your views, dear Quix!
Thank you for sending me the understanding you propose! It looks like you are organizing your thoughts and verses to "correct" the explanation I posted, and "teach" me about this. But before you leap to conclusions I would beg you to hold off a bit, because there are a couple of considerations for you to mull over before you lock in your position.
If you permit, I would like to address your concerns, but right now it is late, I've been tired, and the reply will take a while to formulate. How about giving me 24 hours or so to deal with a few other pressing matters?
BTW, do you have a Strong's Concordance, and/or a Thayer's Lexicon, and/or a Vine's Expository Dictionary? These might help in a deeper examination of the Scriptures on this matter. And, have you had any military training? That would help, too.
With sincere respect --
Your response to my comment makes no sense.
That comment was in response to your implication that if people don’t do Christianity your way, that they don’t take their relationship with the Lord seriously enough and THAT’S what I was telling you you were so wrong about.
There is nothing, and I mean nothing, that I take more seriously but if you think that you can judge that based on outward appearances, you’ve got another thing coming.
And as far as thinking that I am *teaching* you something, I guess it’s pretty hard for those with spiritual pride to admit that they’re wrong about something and a woman was right. And I expected no less.
IOW, no, the women are not permitted to speak at all inside the church ... (metmom)
You were here using "church" to describe the building constructed to house the assembly. This is not a NT useage of the word "church." You misapplied both the Scriptural conditions regarding silence, and attributing to me something about the application of the pertinent passages that I did not say. I believe your intent was to deliberately read into Scripture something that is not there. This is eisegesis. You are also attempting to trivialize the common sense of the passages by seeming to make their clear logical meaning illogical. You also seem to be trying to induce contempt for the clear explanation of The Holy Spirit's non-negotiable imperatives, so that the modernistic mindset may be advanced.
The behavior within the church house and outside the place and time of the conduct assemblage is not within view in this observation. Please do not bring in this extraneous and irrelevant issue to try to falsify the clear Scriptural commands being discussed.
Now, of the "assemblies" which I spoke, this would be the use of translation of "ekklesia" into "church" or "assembly" as referring to a formal association of believers organized to function as a localized body of The Christ. They have standards, both written and unwritten but commonly taught and understood, by which they operate. In particular, the clear command "Let your women keep silence in the churches:" is not a suggestion. Here, the word "ekklesiais" = "churches" = "assemblies" refers to the condition of the process whenever any assembly is congregated for the purpose of public worship and/or instruction. The term "keep silence" is the verb "sigaoh" which means to be still, or in verse 30, to hold one's peace.
If you think this only applies to women, think again. The context also demands that any man is also to keep silence, unless he is under permission to speak. In this ranking the woman is considered to be a subordinate at least to a "bishop," "elder," or "deacon" (Scripturally all to be spiritually mature men), and therefore, since they are to keep silence, so is she as a subordinate. Furthermore, if she has a husband, and he is present and whether he is silent or speaking, she is to demonstrate her Scriptural submission to his authority by her silence as his subordinate. "... for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but to be under obedience, as also saith The Law." Here, The Law is the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses -- the speaking as a contributor to the teaching/preaching in the assembly was not permitted then; it is, seamlessly and ubsurprisingly, not allowed now. To speak = "la-leh-oh" is, in this context, is to address the company assembled in its normal conduct as a part of the session (other than utterance for an emergency, for example). Most certainly there will be no womanly "glossolalia."
But regarding teaching or attempting to exercise authority over a/the man (as you are trying here, metmom), the passage from 1 Timothy 2:11-12 comes into play, most especially where the whole assembly is in session. "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection." Again, this is not a suggestion. There are no escape clauses. In the session of the assembly, with elders conducting teaching, and other men present, the role of women and men present, the conduct expected of subordinates is to learn with the respect of silence = "hesuchia" = quietness. This is "a tranquillity arising from within oneself, causing no disturbance to others" (Vine's). No whispering, no chattering, no fidgeting, no gum-chewing, no preening, no movements to attract attention -- these are indicators of self-control, which is one facet of spiritual maturity, especially as an example to children in attendance.
1 Cor. 14:35 continues to say "... for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Here, shame = "aischron" means "sinfully indecent," that which is opposed to modesty or purity. one deduces then that the group pretending to be "Christian," obeying the commands of The Christ and walking in His Ways (following Him), yet permitting, encouraging, yea demanding rampant control of feminism over the conduct of assembly sessions, demonstrates deliberate sinful indecency to itself, to the Christian community, to the onlooking angels, and to the cheering worldlings whose fundamental loyalty is to thir father, the god of this world.
Regarding the teaching of doctrine, or exercising authority over the believing man, this is not one of the many needed functions that The God has allotted for women to practice. In fact, when she tries, she begins to usurp, to take a role not given. When "a woman's work is never done," is this yet another responsibility she would want to take on? Especially that The God has disallowed? Moreover, in the function of the ekklesia? Think this one out. By requiring the men to fill this role under the authority of The Christ, both the rewards and the blame will fall on them. A woman attempting this will find only blame. At the "bema," that is. Of course, flat-out disobedience of these commands is not the best way to demonstrate much spiritual maturity or stature.
... and it sounds like singing is out, too. (metmom)
No, you miss out on this. When the time for the assembly to raise a vocal offering from the heart in remembrance, submission, thanks, and praise (Eph 5:19-21, Col. 3:16, Heb. 13:15) clearly the silence is momentarily broken for all, and participation is Scripturally expected. This is not a confusion of each one singing one's own song -- it is unity of word and voice by which we are all invited to admonish one another, from new-born baby Christians to spiritual fathers, through the form of psalms, hymns, spiritual songs sung in union.
Here's where the rubber meets the road: in your diatribe, what form of excuses are you trying to find to allow ignoring or rejecting compliance with God's instructions regarding the conduct of the ekklesia when summoned out and in session?
So those who don't do it your way are not spiritually mature and don't take their relationship with the Lord seriously? How legalistic. (metmom)
The above is not "my way" -- I didn't lay out the constitution, process, and program of the functioning of the ekklesia. If you don't like it, take it up with Him -- it's His Way, He wrote the manual. And yes, to reject His Plan may be not only spiritually immature, one may be playing by the rules of the oppositionally defiant side. Compliance with His commands is not legalism. It is playing by His rules, with a great dread of dismaying, disappointing, or disobeying Him by defeating His purposes. (Psalm 128:1)
I am not considering this as an opportunity to find fault or display any superiority, but as a chance for you to rethink and others to consider a greater fellowship with the Lord in His obedient service in and to the ekklesia, exercising growth in the fruit of the Spirit. With regard and unfeigned love for the brethren --
Of course. Over 40 years ago, at the age of 34.
Back then, I went through the "charismatic" stage. It did not seem to be very helpful toward understanding the mind of The Christ. Memorizing, engrafting, and meditating on His Word seemed to work better.
I believe in the whole Bible itself front to back, including the titles of the books, the inspired headings of Psalms, and its name for itself. I believe that it is authoritative, infallible, inerrant, sufficient, plenarily verbally inspired, perfectly preserved, and magnified in Heaven above all His Name. Regarding the passages you indicated, I believe in the meanings they convey when precisely translated into my language in a literal equivalence and interpreted by a hermeneutic employing literal and/or figurative-literal language, so that I may, as closely as possible, understand the sense that a person would understand at the time the Scripture was written.
Do you believe in the Bible as presented to you in this fashion?
If not, no reasonable dialogue is possible.
Some of the ideas and attitudes that your notes in this thread seem to project will probably not be in agreement with a fair exposition of the verses you suggested.
Can you explain the meaning of 1 Cor. 13:10?
Especially in identifying "that which is perfect"?
what sort of prissy group do you associate with?
I associate with independent, fundamental, Bible-believing, separated, immersionist assemblies, where the men are real men, the women are real women, and Jesus Christ is the Real Lord. One of those would be of the Plymouth-type brethren, from whom many highly-respected Bible scholars, authors, and missionaries have come. One such raised in that milieu is my discipler. He has translated the entire New Testament from the Koine, and has in print "The Gospels -- A Precise Translation." It is freely available, and especially valuable to the Bible student who does not have the advantage of a seminary training. It's just as useful, though, to one who does.
(Verbally abusing others isn't the best way to get disciples. At least, Jesus didn't seem to use it much.)
And, of course, I Cor 13 . . . 'that which is perfect' is come . . .
most likely refers to The Perfection of The Lord Jesus, Himself, and/or His coming Perfect Kingdom.
There is a lot to like about a lot of your presentation of yourself and your perspective.
However, a couple of things stick greatly in my craw when I read your stuff.
1. I have observed cessationism to be a doctrine of demons from the pit of hell. I find such blasphemous and grossly insulting toward Holy Spirit and The Father and Son Who sent Him. I tend to relate to it accordingly. I don't know how realistic it is to expect me to play nicey-nicy with that perspective, however polished its presentation.
2. There is, in spite of or in the midst of your carefully crafted sentences, an aura of smug prissiness about your assertions. A Biblical, brotherly Christian duty is to call such out to brothers who are in earnest about growing in The Lord. I'm from the Southwest where we tend to call a spade a spade without a lot of rabbit fur wrapping.
3. I'm 65 years old. I've been around these issues more times than many folks are years old. They are wearisome, tedious, and usually horribly futile when engaged in with an average cessationist.
4. Those with an authentic experience with Holy Spirit need never feel a micro-meter down from those with merely an argument.
5. These END TIMES are racing ever faster toward Armageddon. The cessationist contentions will soon be shown routinely in all authentic churches and a lot of other places to be worse than a stinking pile of corruption from hell.
6. I wouldn't want to be caught on the wrong side of such demonstrations by Holy Spirit.
7. Holy Spirit wrought miracles will be showing up satan's counterfeits in grand style more dramatic than the demonstrations at Moses' hand . . . and that day in and day out--probably for the whole of the Tribulation period and possibly during the latter part of the birth pangs leading up to it.
8. Enjoy your cessationist perspective as long as you can. It has a rapidly decreasing half-life. Then you'll have to deal with The Lord about why you didn't believe and teach what His Word AND HIS VOICE had to say on the matter.
They reek of blatant spiritual pride and outright condescension.
Anyone who passes judgment based on conformance to a certain set of standards which their assembly has decided indicates *spiritual maturity* is not spiritually mature at all. No more than those who don't *drink, dance, smoke, or chew and don't go out with girls who so* or the other extreme where if you don't speak in tongues and get slain in the Spirit, you're not spiritually mature.
God judges the heart, man judges by outward appearance.
Talking down to women and treating them as if they're stupid little children is not an indicator of any kind of maturity much less spiritual. All it indicates a men so insecure in their manhood, that they have to treat women as their property and control them.
The level of judgment passed using criteria which God has not approved (comparing themselves with themselves) is appalling and certainly an indicator of far less spiritual maturity than is indicated by whether a woman covers her head or dares to say anything in church.
Not only can I not imagine going to a church where women aren't allowed to speak, but to think that they can't even speak about spiritual matters there at all either......
After all, if we're going to hold strictly to Scripture, 1 Corinthians 14:35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. must also be observed.
Time to break out the duct tape, eh?
I didn't get your line of reasonings, the supporting Scripture passages, or the explanation of the lack of agreement of "Christ" (masc.) and/or "Kingdom" (fem.) with "that" (neut.,pronoun) and "perfect" (neut., adjective) in the exegesis. Perhaps you could supply those missing factors?
Here is how my discipler has handled it:
Tell me how this explanation compares with your word study on this, OK?
As an aside, The Holy Ghost speaks to me directly every day, both from the pages of His Perfectly Completed Revelation, or from His words in my language that have been memorized. This perfectly completed (plenary, infallible) revelation was not available until about 100 AD, long after most of "them that heard" (Heb. 2:3,4) had passed into Glory.
The majestic radiant splendor of His Precious Word is beyond my still-human comprehension, but I kind of get the sense of some of it, as Saul did on the road to Damascus. Far beyond that of anything ever seen or heard in the "charismatic" entrapment experience of this day and age. When I meet Him face to face, He will keep on teaching me/us from it forever.
Have you ever been discipled? It's not too late to start ---
Yes, He does, and one's words give away what is in their heart. It is a precarious spot to be in if the words are not acceptable to Him. They certainly demonstrate what kind of heart one has:
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men (humans) shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Mt. 12:36-37)
In this thread, the words will be counted, every one.
For your edification, if you have patience, this link will help clarify the actual theme of this thread, in a very exegetical analysis:
"... even in Pauls day there was a counterfeit gospel (of a different kind than Paul preached) and a counterfeit spirit which presented another Jesus of the same kind. The spirit which puts emphasis upon himself and the gospel which stresses getting that spirit is contrary to the gospel which Paul preached and that spirit is contrary to The Holy Spirit that Jesus Christ promised to send."
It's worth checking out ---
The tediousness of the exhaustive ‘proof texting’ efforts at rationalizing such a perspective about
cessationism is incredible.
It’s as though no amount of irrational, illogic will persuade such folks away from their tedious hollow ‘proofs’ of their biases.
I’m reminded of the pharisees who were so skillful at rationalizing protecting their monies from taking care of their parents by devoting them to God.
Humans have ever been skillful at rationalizing away God’s rather clear meanings in His Word.
I Cor 13 is not that difficult. Sigh.
I think I’ll hit the shower and maybe a nap. Tired.
I read what you have said, and it DOES sound somewhat legalistic, archaic and demeaning to women and their place within the Body of Christ today. Certainly not all women are married or have a husband who is able to teach them. I graduated from a Bible College and my husband, who is a devoted Christian, asks ME about Biblical matters and doctrine. He IS the leader in our home and I respect his authority as well as his responsibility, but I do not look down on him because he is not the Bible teacher in our marriage. Is it the "ideal" that husbands be the spiritual leaders? Perhaps. But that does not make it mandatory in order to have a right relationship with Christ. Just as Scripture says each man should be "fully persuaded in his own mind" about such issues as feast days and sabbaths, so must each believer answer to God personally for every area of their lives. There WERE women deacons in the early church, most likely "servants" or "ministers" and not necessarily an "office" of a deacon:
Phoebe is most likely identified as a woman deacon of the church at Cenchrea in Romans 16:1 (affirmed by complementarian commentators such as Douglas Moo [NICNT] and Thomas Schreiner [BECNT]). Pauls mention of women deacons coheres well with his earlier prohibition of women serving in teaching or ruling functions over men (1 Tim. 2:12) and his lack of mention of women elders in 1 Timothy 3:17.
Since being a deacon does not involve teaching or ruling, women as well as men are eligible to serve in this capacity. Note that there is no requirement of marital faithfulness in the case of women deacons (cf. 1 Timothy 3:2, 12), presumably because male marital infidelity was common while female infidelity was not, and possibly also because women deacons were not necessarily expected to be married (some may have been widows or single).
Many conservative churches are hesitant to appoint women deacons because deacons often have a governing role. They fear that having women deacons may suggest theological liberalism, since Scripture does not permit women to serve in governing positions (see esp. 1 Tim. 2:12; 5:17). However, the problem here is not women deacons but the unbiblical understanding of the role of deacon. (http://www.biblicalfoundations.org/women-deacons/)
Finally, God "gifts" the church with those who:
I Cor. 12:27-31 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."
The greater gifts are obviously those that edify the church, the believers. Ephesians 4:11-13 "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
We are all one in Christ and God has given to the church those that edify the believers within it, all to his glory.
That is also my understanding of that term, "that which is perfect". The "sign" gifts of the first century were certainly given as proof of authority of the words the disciples were preaching. Once the New Testament, thus the entire Bible, was completed and its authority was established, there was no longer the need for those sign gifts. We now know fully the doctrines God desired for us to know and the Holy Spirit within each believer is who leads us into all truth within the word of God.
Now does God still heal miraculously? Yes, that never ceased, and is available to all who pray asking for God's will but it is NOT a power given to a specific person in order to demonstrate his authority and therefore the truth of his message. There is far too much fakery and charlatans out there today for people to be tricked by those with a false gospel.
The same with the gift of tongues/languages. Can God give a person that ability in certain situations? Of course. But is what passes for that sign gift today authentic? Does everyone who "speaks in tongues" really have that gift where a person who doesn't speak a language all of a sudden can? I would have to say no. What passes as tongues mostly today is NOT known languages but a garbled, made-up, loosely resembling something or some kind of noise but NOT a language. Scripture gave specific directions for when and how that gift was to be used and rarely is it followed. Some churches even preach that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved and some teach it is the ONLY way to "pray in the Spirit", as if only those who have the gift are able to do this.
I agree with you that "that which is perfect" has come and it is the Word of God which is our final authority on doctrines of the Christian faith. Now that Bible translators have translated it into nearly every language in the known world, it IS our authority for truth for everyone.
Can someone have an authentic experience with the Holy Spirit and it NOT be by speaking in tongues? Is that the only way God demonstrates his connection?
Thank you for your courteous inquiry! It is much easier to converse with another who listens with the idea that you hold him/her in great respect, and who realizes the differences that must be overcome to be of one mind, of one accord!
If one is determined to be conformed to the image of The Son of God's Love, the accommodation of these temporal dissonances can be overcome, with a view toward a pleasing fellowship in Him. I appreciate your tolerance of differences without being disagreeable. In earlier exchanges that you seem to have read through, I am hoping you will see that I had no intention of being a needler, but rather to lift up some warnings suggested by correct application of The God's wise counsel to the so-called "charismatic" phenomenon, as well as to modernistic reinterpretations of the plain sense principles embodied in The Word. In doing so, it is difficult to be both clear and concise, to be both pithy and precise; so the method might come across as seeming to "talk down" in a comment. I hope you understand this.
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Yes, I wholeheartedly subscribe to this summary of Paul's understanding of The God's estimate of our value to him. This is our standing; yet in His sovereignty, he has assigned each of us certain roles, responsibilities, requirements; and furnished us the means to complete our earthly tasks. He had made us equal in value to His care, but not in accountability.
I would like to take up your questions, but will have to postpone my response. But let me say regarding as to supposed changes in cultural norms permitting or demanding changes in application of Bible standards:
The Christ, admonishing Satan, prefaced his Scripture quotations with
"It is written: ..."
This sounds rather weak in English, but in Greek the verb is in the perfect tense, for which the sense is that of an action, once completed but having eternal abiding results. "It stands written, applies now, and will never change!" How does this apply to Biblical standards in today's customs?
Furthermore, be very careful about excercising your freedom to make up your mind on issues. Quoting from Proverbs 3:5-8 --
"... lean not unto thine own understanding ... Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil."
If you want to get a really wise woman's view on behavior in and out of the home, you might seek advice from my discipler's wife and ministry partner by writing to the Happy Heralds website.
Or, you might ask my daughter-in-law, a godly wife and mother of 10 home-schooled children (will send her email link privately, if you wish and she OKs). Or, you might contact a couple with whom I have been fellow disciples.
So long for now --- be a light to the lost!
I do NOT believe that tongues is the only way one can receive Holy Spirit's messages. I think tongues is used as an added emphatic confirmation for a believer or an extra emphatic sign to the unbeliever--kind of like an exclamation point or a highlighted message.
Christ Himself said MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE.
In my experience, God usually speaks to us in the language we normally speak. His still small voice is not in need of translation. The issues are usually 3 fold:
1. Learning to distinguish His voice in peaceableness vs our own mental noise. The Biblical exhortation to FOLLOW AFTER PEACE is a wise one. If we don't feel a peace about what we're hearing--ask for God to bring clarity and his peace as confirmation and wait.
2. Obedience. He tends to wait until we've obeyed what He last said before saying a lot more.
3. Learning to distinguish the seductive voice of satan is not USUALLY as hard as it might sound . . . satan tends to be insistent, pressuring, demanding, hurrying, coercive, etc.
BTW, rarely do I find a cessationist who isn't utterly convinced that their own 'works' oriented, slavish toned tedious mangling of Scripture isn't some sort of greatly higher red badge of courage and righteousness . . . particularly compared to those 'emotional experiencers.'
Some seemingly unthinkingly try and insist that THEY flawlessly or near flawlessly are protected by the pristine TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE vs 'experiencers' being fooled by and addicted to EXPERIENCES outside of SCRIPTURE.
What an idiotic idea. They'd have NO COMPREHENSION THAT THERE EVEN WAS SCRIPTURE apart from their EXPERIENCE of the printed or spoken text! What a farcical dichotomy.
Most earnest believers--actually, in 65 years, I haven't ran across one for whom it was NOT true for--have had the experience where they've been in a longish period of agonized travail over an issue--seeking God's face for a solution or direction or help of some kind--desperate to hear from God.
Finally, one day, they are reading along normally in their time with the Bible and a verse kind of JUMPS OUT AT THEM with a particular word or phrase or sentence very highlighted with a specific meaning for their great need or concern.
The cessationists are loathe to admit that
THAT'S 'extra-Biblical' THAT EXPERIENCE was not an INHERENT PART OF THE TEXT. HOLY SPIRIT ADDED THAT IN ANSWER TO THEIR NEED AT THAT MOMENT.
In terms of tongues, I ALSO BELIEVE HOLY SPIRIT USES IT AS A LESSON AND CHALLENGE--SOMETIMES A BENCH-MARK--IN HUMILITY.
Babbling along in 'gibberish' is not the most dignified thing one can do in front of others. It's a great way to crash one's leaning on the arm of flesh for one's religiosity and spirituality. And, often Holy Spirit seems to virtually require that level and type of humility for some of His added blessings.
Of course, given the perversity of human nature, we can take even something designed to mature us in humility and turn it upside down as an occasion for pride. Holy Spirit tends to leave the proceedings to us, at that point--at least in most respects.
It's a common thing--particularly for the immature and inexperienced--to wander in and out of Holy Spirit's anointing and in and out of the flesh--sometimes in the same narrative message to the group. Discerning folks can tell the difference.
It was traditional in my teens to TARRY FOR THE SPIRIT--HOURS! I did.
I don't think that's necessary. I think it is necessary to be prayed up, confessed up, repented up AND EARNESTLY SEEKING HOLY SPIRIT--GOD'S HIGHEST--FOR MORE OF CHRIST, MORE OF GOD HIMSELF. Then, to TRUST GOD to give bread and not a stone. AND IN FAITH to begin to speak in a sequence of syllables not learned as a language. THEN TO TRUST THAT HOLY SPIRIT IS APPLYING HIS MEANING TO THE SEQUENCE OF SOUNDS.
As in all things, WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN. IT IS BY FAITH that we trust Holy Spirit to be communicating HIS message via our strange sound sequence. Thankfully, He usually confirms such by a more or less tangible anointing and invigorating electrified sense of His Presence. But not always. That can come and go. And, usually goes after some weeks . . . forcing us to walk by faith in even our experience of 'tongues.'
Many times in counseling and in crisis situations and in deliverance situations, I'd have been lost without praying in tongues, It was while waiting on God AND praying in tongues that the break-through and/or answer came--countless times.
I don't think tongues ought to be made overmuch of. Neither do I think folks ought to rebel against Scripture AND GOD--and QUENCH HOLY SPIRIT. There are unholy and unpleasant consequences when they do--whether they are immediately evident, or not.
I find it easier to converse with folks who treat Scripture with humility and respect--deeply--vs merely apparently.
And, as I've indicated, I have decreasing tolerance for the demonic doctrine from hell of cessationism.
I see no way to white-wash or excuse it.
It is horrific, damnable and consigns individuals to an unnecessary, destructive and costly degree of attachment from God that is a stench in His nostrils as well.
There are coming dreadful times of great urgency when folks will DESPERATELY NEED to hear from God's voice IMMEDIATELY IN THE SITUATION. The whole idea that it is UNBIBLICAL to do what GOD SAYS HIS SHEEP DO will be very costly to such individuals. And their blood will be laid at the feet of their teachers and disciplers who taught them such a damnable heresy.
BTW, I read much of your linked document about 'that which is perfect has come.'
It was interesting to a point but mostly thoroughly tedious, boring, prissy and inconsequential.
IT also did not touch the issue of CHRIST'S PERFECT KINGDOM being an option.
And, it did not deal with the Aramaic.
More importantly, it doesn't match up with the rest of Scripture on cessationism and the VERY BIBLICAL OPERATION OF HOLY SPIRIT'S GIFTS IN THE ENTIRE CHURCH ERA.
There's not a shred of Biblical support for Holy Spirit taking a vacation after John ran out of ink at the end of Revelation.
There's not a shred of Biblical support for some angelic host or messenger coming down out of Heaven and declaring in 70 AD on June 4th at 13:00
"TWEEEEET! EVERYBODY OUTTA DA POOL. STOP ALL THIS SUPER NATURAL GOD-STUFF. Holy Spirit is now on sabbatical. Y'all have to wrestle with Truth and demons on your own--Christ didn't really mean what He said about The Comforter. Tough tacos. No more swimming in this Church Era Dispensation. Plod along in the flesh in your Christian walk as best you can. Holy Spirit has done all the COMFORTING and leading into All Truth He was scheduled to do. Fooled you! Bye."
What grandiose ignorance gone to seed parading and prancing about as great erudition and scholarly wisdom.
The main thrust of cessationism is not to deny God the Holy Spirit, nor to grieve nor quench the Holy Spirit.
Rather it recognizes God the Holy Spirit is very, very active in every believer in their walk with God in the study of His Word.
There is fairly strong theological evidence that the Canon of Scripture has been sealed. This means the present Canon expresses His Word and it is adequate and sufficient for us to perform every good work which God has planned for us to do from eternity past.
It isn’t denied that different believers have different spiritual gifts.
It also is recognized that while we might have the mystery of God and the Father, and the Son, and the Gospel to be revealed to us spiritually, there also are mysteries of lawlessness and iniquity which also exist in the spiritual domain which we do not need for our faith.
Spiritual deception also arises with the appearance of light and a counterfeit gospel. What better way to counterfeit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, than for demon possession to manifest itself in tongue-like behavior, spiritual communication, and enthralling experience. Such is the New Age way of life, but that is hardly the Christian way of life.
I do not judge all those who claim to have a spiritual gift of tongues, bu I also recognize that there are many spiritual influences which may have demonic roots in an attempt to deceive believers and those who seek God.
I would encourage instead to study Bible doctrine through faith in Christ, so that when exposed to such spiritual persons, they might be tested to discern deception from the Truth.
there’s the counterfeits of satan. Scripture is clear about that.
However, no one counterfeits a $3.00 bill.
The counterfeit points to the genuine.
Yes, we are to be alert to the enemy’s wiles and counterfeits.
However, our focus is to be elsewhere.
On The Lord Jesus and what HE is SAYING to us . . . for today, this moment. etc.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Here’s an interesting timeline . . .
I'll give you an unqualified *YES!*. It happened to me.
Is that the only way God demonstrates his connection?
NO! As a matter of fact, there's not one bit of Scriptural support for this teaching that has become so popular these days.
What people don't consider is the fruit of the Spirit, which is better evidence of a genuine filling, that something that can be so easily faked or counterfeited.
And it doesn't have to be YOUR way.....
bb, the silence in response to your question here is deafening....."Also, WRT cultural norms, women were supposed to have long hair and not wear clothing that men wore. Do you think this applies in today's time? Do all your women in your assembly have to wear their hair long and not be allowed to wear pants?"
I would lay money on the fact that that is the case. I've been around enough homeschoolers to know the stereotype that is not without plenty of justification. Long hair in a braid, that needs brushing, long denim skirts, and dirty athletic shoes, with the younger girls in the family (about 10 years old for example) , who are not physically mature enough to be balancing a heavy toddler on her hip, doing just that while the mother strolls around, not paying attention to the child she herself bore, but foisting the responsibility of it off onto another child who is physically not able to bear it.
I've seen it waaaaayyyyy too often.
Matter of fact, I've yet to see an exception to this situation when I encounter this type of woman who believes like that.
There's a problem with consistency of interpretation in declaring that the *sign gifts* have passed away.
1 Corinthians 12:6-11 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
1 Corinthians 12:28-31 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
Healings, tongues, interpretations, and miracles are all listed with apostles, prophets, and teachers. Now, if the *sign gifts* have passed away, the others must have too, which means no more teachers. People are too selective about which gifts they consider to have passed away. they cherry pick which ones they like and toss the rest.
It's either all or nothing. Either all the gifts have passed, or none of them have. Cherry picking leads to error.
That said, I see a problem with people depending too much on signs. It may be necessary in some circumstances, but the verse in 1 Corinthians 13 which people use to say the sign gifts have passed is way too loose an interpretation.
Are you following another gospel of a different kind than that proclaimed by Paul?
Whoa, Scout! That’s quite a chart. Thank you.
Blessed is the Name of the Lord.
There is strength of the Name of the Lord.
There is power in the Name of the Lord.
There is hope in the Name of the Lord.
Blessed is he who comes in the precious Name of the Lord.
= = = =
Thank you for sharing your testimony, dear Quix!
Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 13 where that verse is found...(1 Corinthians 13:8-11 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.)
The context here doesn't support that the perfection which is coming/has come, is the written word, but rather love. Love is the perfection which has come.
Thanks for your inquiry of my position on water baptism. Sorry for the delay, as I’m an OTR driver, and have been resting since getting back home yesterday.
Some folks ask, “where in the OT are the examples or symbols of water baptism?” Well, there are some types and shadows:
Gen. 1:2. And the earth was without form and void (no life and nothing to support it, DOA, buried at sea so to speak); and darkness was upon the face of the deep (buriel is darkness, for sure). And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (if the convicting Spirit of God is not present, water baptism is vain ceremony).
In verse 9, God brought dry land into existance and began to bring life from where there was none. Romans 6:4 says Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father (notice Christ didnt raise himself up, the Father that was in him doing the works and left him to die on the cross, raised him from the dead) even so we also should walk in newness of life. And Col. 2:12 says basically the same thing.
Gen 6:5-8. God repented that he had made man, decides to destroy all mankind, and chooses Noah (who could have said Lord, thanks for asking me to build the Ark, but ask someone else please. I still believe in you though, and will continue to live in a way pleasing to you. Well, Noah wouldnt have survived the flood.
2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. What perished? Sin in the form of man. God washed the planet of sin and began again. (Of course, Satan was waiting to defile Noahs decendents).
Water baptism is buriel with Jesus Christ and was forshadowed in the story of Joseph, who was thrown into a pit to eventually die. A kid of the goats was killed and blood shed to conceal the crime. But, Joseph was lifted out to eventually live a new life of royalty and power. There was no water in the pit, but the buriel symbolism is present, imho.
Baby Moses was as good as dead, but was placed in the river (in the little ark, so he wouldn’t drown), and was brought forth to a new life.
Led out of Egypt by Moses, the Israelites “were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea..” 1Cor. 10:2,3 (sounds kinda like a shadow of being ‘born of the water and of the Spirit’)
Namaan, the Syrian captain and a leper, didnt think much of dipping in the Jordan, and was as good as dead before he did so. His rotting flesh was changed ...unto the flesh of a little child, and (talk about types and shadows) he was clean. 2 Kings 5:8-14.
The priests of the tabernacle in the wilderness had to be washed clean before being of service to God. Ex. 30:20
Jonah was, by his own admission, condemned to death. Was cast into the sea. Three days later he came forth a newly motivated preacher, going faithfully into a situation that his carnal man despised.
Acts 22:16 (Ananias to Saul/Paul) And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. After a great revival in Samaria (Acts 8:5-25) where people were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and where Simon the sorcerer offered money for power to give people the Holy Ghost (mustve been more to receiving the Spirit than seeing people saying I accept the Lord as my personal saviour. And the Samaritans believed and were baptized in verse 12, but didnt receive the Holy Ghost until later, in verse 17. Yes, even though years ago I made fun of it, speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Ghost; see Acts 2:4; 10:44-46. And yes, Im sure there are plenty of people faking it.) The Ethiopian eunuch couldnt wait to be baptized, knowing from Philips preaching, that it was real important. So, when passing by a ‘certain water’, he orderd the chariot to stop, so that he could immediately be baptized. Acts 8:38-39
It was Jesus Christ, our example of course, who said to John the baptist, at the Jordan river, in Matt. 3:15, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.
We could say, Jesus, how could getting dunked in that river make you any more righteous than you already are? 1 Cor. 1:26-29 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.
The Lord didnt ask us to be baptized, he commanded it: Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; also John 3:5. John 3:16 is a great verse, but is in a closing summary of what the Lord had explained in detail in the previous verses of chapter 3. I know there are those that say that the water in John 3:5 is natural birth, citing verse 6. But Jesus didnt say that which is water is flesh. In verse 6 He was simply answering Nicodemass carnal question. And there is no mention of water in John 1:13, pertaining to fleshly birth. Peter commanded baptism: Acts 2:38; 10:48; Paul commanded baptism: Acts 19:1-5; Even the keeper of the prison was baptized he and all his, straightway (there appeared to be a sense of urgency concerning baptism) Acts 16:31-34. Paul admitted to baptizing Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, to the Corinthians, who were busy bragging about what notable preachers baptized them. 1 Cor. 1:12-17.
When the long lost book of the law was found and read, King Josiah was shocked, rent his clothes, and said ...great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us.... He saw to it that they followed God ordinances with greater zeal than any of his predesessors. 2 Kings chaps 22&23. Someone could have said, King Josiah, my parents didnt follow these ordinances, are you saying they were not faithful? Likewise obedience to Acts 2:38 is not to be treated as an option, or not even necessary. The dead are in God’s hands. The living are to hear and obey his word, which is being faithful.
The Christ became that ultimate sacrifice that didnt simply cover sin, but was able to bring a new and living way (Heb. 10:20) that washed the sin away. Jesus said in Luke 24:47 ...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And that came to pass in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, as shown in Acts chp 2, most notably verse 38.
Those that go to the epistles to proclaim the salvation in Jesus Christ, yet deny any power to water baptism in his name, are overlooking the profound fact that the epistles are to read in this context: these letters were written to BELIEVERS. They were already called to be saints (were born again), or were at least witness to it and attending such meetings.
Hopefully this response makes my position somewhat clear. Any other questions or comments will be answered to the best of my ability with the limited time I have.
Thanks and Lord bless.
Roberts, Copeland, and many others were caught-up in themselves, and named their ministries, and colleges after themselves. I thought this was supposed to be about Yeshua!
What about the thief on the cross who went to Pardise with Jesus? He was never baptized in water. What about the person who truly accepts Christ minutes, or hours before death and has no access to water or time to be baptized in water? I have been baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Completely immersed in water! I did that as an act of obedience. I baptize many in water, complete immersion in the name of the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit. My salvation rests securely in Jesus Chriat and in Jesus Christ alone. Water baptism is SYMBOLIC! It symbolizes that I died, was buried, and arose with Christ. I was saved before I was baptized. If I had not been saved first by receiving Christ as my Lord & Savior, I would not have been obedient to baptism. Have you been baptized in the name of Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe Matthhew 28:19? When I was baptized in the name of the Father, SON, and Holy Spirit; I was baptized in the name of Jesus. I was saved before I was ever baptized in water! There is nothing anymore magical about water than there is with the juice and bread used for communion. They are strictly symbolic of a spiritual reality. If you don’t believe this, you have been duped, deceived, and misled by the apostolic or oneness movement. You are not following “the faith once delivered to the saints.” Jesus Chriat miraculously changed my life. He did for me what no man could ever do in delivering me from a lifestyle of total destruction. I’ve been preaching this gospel for 30 years now, spent 30 years studying the word of God, 30 years on my knees, and 30 years following Jesus Christ. “I know in whom I have believed.”
>> “ I believe Satan has raised up Hinn, Crowder and Bentley to discredit the Spiritual gifts, The problem is that too much of the Charismatic World accepts or at least refuses to discern these charlatons and buffoons.” <<
Hinn would not be my choice, but I still think that you may be pushing the envelope a bit here. There have been thousands of miraculous healings at Hinn’s meetings, and YHWH is fully capable of using a weak disciple to his advantage.
I suggest finding a 1965 edition of the Amplified Bible, and reading the New Testament therein. It provides much deeper insights into the realities of the first century church than do other versions.
>> There’s not a shred of Biblical support for Holy Spirit taking a vacation after John ran out of ink at the end of Revelation.
There’s not a shred of Biblical support for some angelic host or messenger coming down out of Heaven and declaring in 70 AD on June 4th at 13:00
“TWEEEEET! EVERYBODY OUTTA DA POOL. STOP ALL THIS SUPER NATURAL GOD-STUFF. Holy Spirit is now on sabbatical. Y’all have to wrestle with Truth and demons on your own—Christ didn’t really mean what He said about The Comforter. Tough tacos. No more swimming in this Church Era Dispensation. Plod along in the flesh in your Christian walk as best you can. Holy Spirit has done all the COMFORTING and leading into All Truth He was scheduled to do. Fooled you! Bye.” <<
Time to quit fearing that the HS will embarrass you in public.
That really is the point I am trying to make. Thanks. What passes as "gifts of the Holy Spirit" today - i.e., the sign gifts - are and have been faked and, had they been the TRUE gifts of the Spirit, would have resulted in souls genuinely saved and lives changed that bring glory to God. For example, when Peter healed the lame beggar on the steps to the temple (Acts 3) he didn't wait until a crowd had gathered nor did he cause an uproar to draw attention to what he was about to do, but he quietly spoke to the man and said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk. and he did. It was the healed man who jumped up and down and raised an uproar attracting attention to Peter and John. To those that gathered, Peter then preached the Gospel to them and souls were saved. It was not their intent to draw praise for themselves but to glorify the Lord and win souls for Christ.
Far too many "televangelists" and revival preachers use gimmicks to draw supporters to their events all to raise money to continue lavish lifestyles. That does NOT honor Jesus nor do most of them preach the straight Gospel but a perverted one that does not save. That alone is evidence that whatever "gifts" they boast they have are not from God. We had a Charismatic traveling evangelist couple in our church and I asked them one time if they needed interpreters during their sermons in foreign countries. They said they did. So I wonder how is it that if they have the gift of tongues, why can't they miraculously speak in the language of those they preach to or, like the disciples at Pentecost, why don't they have the ability to speak and everyone there "hears" the gospel in their own language? They did not have an answer. There is nowhere in Scripture teaches that tongues is EVER to be used by someone alone for their own edification but it is always for the unbeliever's benefit.
I don't believe that what is called the "Cessationism" view is from Satan nor that those who think the sign gifts were for the establishment of the church and ceased once the New Testament was completed and the Apostles died are teaching something that takes away from the glory and work of God throughout the church age. I guess my view is that of:
A strong Cessationist would appeal to the principle of Sola Scriptura, insisting on three propositions:
1.the completion of the canon of the Bible
2.the infallible and sufficient authority of the Bible
3.the perfection of the Scriptures to guide the Church
According to a strong Cessationist, a person with a gift of power is also a prophet because healings and miracles were always signs associated with the divine confirmation of the genuineness of a prophet in the periods when God revealed new truths with respect to the doctrine. A strong Cessationist might concede that prophecies might be useful in the guidance of the Church. Nevertheless, he will insist that the Church can be perfectly guided to reach the right decisions if it applies the principles, teachings and examples of the Bible.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism)
As far as what God allows during the Tribulation period, we already know that some will have the abilities to do miraculous things. But I do not believe at all that we are there yet. All in all, I respect others rights to believe as they choose and how they feel God leads them. It is not up to me to convince anyone, that is the Holy Spirit's job. All I can do is to speak as I am led and it is NOT by the devil!
**What about the thief on the cross who went to Pardise with Jesus? He was never baptized in water.**
After healing the man of his leprosy, Jesus said unto him, “see thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testamony unto them.” Matt. 8:4 (same story in Mark and Luke)
The thief was still under the Law, “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” Heb. 9:16,17
After his resurrection, before ascending to heaven, the Lord gave those commands, that we read of at the end of the gospels, to his disciples to follow and administer. The Lord commanded “that REPENTANCE and REMISSION of sins should be preached in HIS NAME among all nations, BEGINNING at Jerusalem”. This first was administered in Acts 2.
**What about the person who truly accepts Christ minutes, or hours before death and has no access to water or time to be baptized in water?**
Truly accepts? Do you know the condition of the soul that intimately that you can judge a person’s salvation? The ‘get right with God’ just before death mentallity is one of the biggest reasons people live in sin. They love the world too much to give it up until they see that they are hopelessly on the way out. They are told all they have to do is confess and believe, and think “well, I can just do that while I’m breathing my last breaths”.
The keeper of the prison, in Acts 16, is a favorite of the ‘just accept the Lord’ crowd. Curiously, they place little regard to how Paul and Silas then “spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.....and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.” vss 32,33.
When I was first witnessed to of the apostolic, Acts 2:38 message, I resisted, thinking of a brother, a wonderful grandmother, and others that had passed away. But, I had to realize that I’m not their judge. I was witnessed to of portions of the Word that had not been regarded as essential. I had to accept it or reject it.
**Water baptism is SYMBOLIC!**
There was symbolism in the OT of baptism. Read my post #138 for a list of those.
**I have been baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.**
The Lord’s command for baptism was heard by Peter and the others. On Pentecost, when Peter commanded the convicted hearts to “repent, and be baptized EVERY ONE of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins”, there is no record of the other apostles correcting him on the name.
**When I was baptized in the name of the Father, SON, and Holy Spirit; I was baptized in the name of Jesus.**
So you sign your checks “Father, Son, and Husband”? (if you’re married, that is)
Thats why, if a sect doesnt teach baptism in the name of JESUS for the remission of sins, then they are in disobedience the the Lords hand picked and properly instructed apostles. They knew that the name (singular) in Matthew 28:19 is Jesus, for:
The Christ declared his name to not be his own, but his Fathers. JN 5:43
The writer of Hebrews declared the son received his name by INHERITANCE. Heb 1:4
The Sons name is not Son, its JESUS, for he was named that by Gods order to both Joseph and Mary. Matt. 1:21 and Luke 1:31
The Christ declared that the Holy Ghost, WHICH PROCEEDETH from the Father (JN 15:26), is sent by the Father in MY NAME.
The term ‘Son of God’ is scriptural; the term ‘God the Son’ is found nowhere in scripture. Neither is ‘God the Holy Spirit’, for that matter.
**Have you been baptized in the name of Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.**
Yes, as a teen, and the words did not include ‘for the remission of sins’. I was rebaptized 12 years later in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins.
**Jesus Chriat miraculously changed my life. He did for me what no man could ever do in delivering me from a lifestyle of total destruction.**
Are your sins remitted as per the Lord’s commands? He changed lives before he went to the cross; healings, changes of heart and mind, messages of conviction and hope, etc. But, as I already pointed out, they were still under the Law. When Philip preached and performed miracles unto the Samaritans, “there was great joy in that city”. Then a few verses later they are said to have believed and were baptized, but did not receive the Holy Ghost until sometime later when Peter and John showed up.
I can go on, and will, if there is a request to discuss more. Even any questions about why the ‘oneness movement’ doesn’t teach the ‘trinity’ will gladly be answered. Any response may take a few days, as I’m an OTR truck driver, and still live in the low tech past when camped out in the sleeper. But, I will leave you with this: Acts 2:38......is it from heaven, or of men?
In a nutshell, anything you add to the finished work of Christ on the cross as a prerequisite for salvation is what you’re trusting in.
If you add baptism, then you are trusting baptism to save you and you are saying that the death of Christ isn’t enough.
If you add taking communion, then it’s the eating that saves you, not Christ.
Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins. NOTHING else is capable of remitting sin and granting forgiveness. If it was Christ died for nothing.
Christ’s death alone is sufficient. If it wasn’t, Christ would not have said *It is finished*.
Being dunked in water baptism does not save anyone. It’s not Christ and _________.
It’s Christ, period.
It isn't saying that all the gifts to the church or the fruit of the Holy Spirit - which also includes love - will cease. I Corinthians 13:8-10 says, "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.". So love never fails, but tongues - the supernatural power of tongues - will cease just as prophecies and partial knowledge will. Why Paul spoke of tongues and not healing, I don't know other than it is something God always will do. Because he said "prophecies" and "knowledge" is why I believe it is speaking of the completed revelation of God - the Bible. No new prophecy or unrevealed knowledge was omitted from it. Some people even say that tongues is some kind of "heavenly" language, the language of angels, but I know it can't be that simply because Paul said it would "be stilled" or stop. Obviously we will all speak some kind of language in heaven, but it will not be the same as the tongues in I Cor. 13.
However, I do agree that too much emphasis is placed on the "showy" outward demonstrations of tongues - which Paul said was the least of the gifts. Each person will answer to God for however he uses the gifts God gives and all of them are for the ultimate glory of God.
Indeed, dear sister in Christ, any suggestion that the blood of Christ was inadequate is an insult to God.
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. - Col 1:20
God’s Name is I AM.
Ditto even implying that He quit being the Miraculous God He’s always been.
**Christs death alone is sufficient. If it wasnt, Christ would not have said *It is finished*.**
He finished the requirement for sacrifice for sin. “There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin”.
**In a nutshell, anything you add to the finished work of Christ on the cross**
I didn’t ADD anything, HE laid down the requirements that make one “buried with him”, as Paul referred to it.
Jesus christ is the one who said one ‘must be born of the water and of the Spirit’, and commanded baptism at the end of Matthew and Mark. He commanded ‘that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name beginning at Jerusalem. Where is that fulfilled....Acts 2:38.
The apostles went about ‘dunking’ people just as fast as they could under awkward (Jews in the presense of Gentiles: The conversion of Cornelious and household included an order for immediate baptism ‘in the name of the Lord’), harrowing and painful (tortured and beaten Paul and Silas didn’t dilly dally), the eunuch didn’t pass up on what Philip apparently taught while riding in desert. Paul promptly RE-baptized men in Ephesus.
You’ve got to move a muscle to be born again, nomatter how you dodge the water baptism issue. Whether going to hear a preacher, making an effort to repent, making a verbal confession, or getting ‘dunked’ (You need to repent for mocking it, imo), there’s effort in being converted.
His apostles were right; and your claiming Christ yet rejecting his and his apostles words.
The eighteen wheeler is warmered up, gotta go for now. Adios.